/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-12-02 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  23. # [01:49] <Hixie> heycam|away: any progress on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17201 ?
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  51. # [03:40] <zewt> youtube is a case study in the fact that a company will intentionally utterly cripple a video streaming service to save money
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  53. # [03:40] <zewt> been worthless for like a year or more now
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  57. # [03:51] <tantek> youtube seemed to work fine for streaming the recent US presidential debates, just one example, but still, didn't expect it to work as well as it did and be such high quality (HD over DSL).
  58. # [03:55] <zewt> it's a case study in once a company has an effective monopoly, not giving a shit about user experience
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  60. # [04:00] <zewt> this 3-minute video i'm trying to watch is 12 MB, which my connection can download in about 4 seconds, yet youtube's player refuses to buffer more than ~50 seconds into the future, and it end up falling on its ass and underrunning halfway through the video
  61. # [04:02] <zewt> seems like they just destroy tcp window sizing, once it clamps the buffer size it never recovers
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  63. # [04:03] <Hixie> url?
  64. # [04:04] <zewt> every youtube video, heh
  65. # [04:04] <zewt> (both html5 and flash)
  66. # [04:04] <Hixie> the 12MB one
  67. # [04:05] <zewt> not sure since i closed it already, some thelonelyisland one i think heh
  68. # [04:06] <zewt> the basic case seems to be "youtube wants to throttle bandwidth usage, and if no smooth mechanisms exist to do it they're willing to use bad mechanisms instead"
  69. # [04:06] <Hixie> when you have one you know is small and you want me to look into it, give me a url :-)
  70. # [04:06] <zewt> (youtube used to allow buffering whole videos; now once it buffers some amount into the future it stops buffering, which doesn't actually work)
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  72. # [04:37] <tantek> oh *that* problem. yeah I've seen the problem zewt is talking about as well.
  73. # [04:38] <tantek> happens with either Flash *or* "HTML5" video
  74. # [04:38] <tantek> I've developed this habit of, start Youtube video, immediately hit pause to let it buffer for a while, and then when I remember to get back to it, start playing it. So yeah, something broke for slow(er) connections in the past few months. I don't watch much video on YouTube so I haven't bothered reporting it.
  75. # [04:39] <tantek> I can try a few videos (movie trailers are a good test case) when I get back to a DSL connection and provide URLs then.
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  146. # [11:14] <annevk> jamesr: indeed (re public-webapps) TR/ of Fetch doesn't define referrer source either
  147. # [11:20] <SimonSapin> annevk: is it ok to steal the whatwg stylesheet for http://simonsapin.github.com/data-urls/ ?
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  150. # [11:25] <annevk> SimonSapin: I certainly used it myself without asking for all kinds of things
  151. # [11:27] <annevk> Hixie: "Browsers won't let you nest iframes that point to ancestors." The only interesting case here might be paths that differ only in percent escaping; e.g. %41 vs A or %7F vs %7f
  152. # [11:30] <annevk> Oh, in WebKit DocumentFragment insertion is still not atomic? https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91460
  153. # [11:32] <SimonSapin> Looks much better: http://simonsapin.github.com/data-urls/
  154. # [11:32] <SimonSapin> and has the appropriate amount of red
  155. # [11:38] <annevk> nice
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  224. # [16:16] <zewt> In the proposed version, I've changed the links to the following specs: - [CORS], [DOM], [DOMPS], [HTML] from the WHATWG version to the latest W3C TR doc. - [FILEAPI], [PROGRESSEVENTS], [WEBIDL] from the latest W3C ED to the latest W3C TR doc.
  225. # [16:16] <zewt> ^ don't know who this guy is, but the above tells me he should never ever be editing specs
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  227. # [16:18] <zewt> don't even know why i'm glancing at these threads, heh
  228. # [16:18] <zewt> guess it's the car crash principle
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  237. # [16:34] <Ms2ger> zewt, to be fair, it's apparently plh's fault
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  281. # [19:42] * manu1 wonders if there is a canonical form for HTML5? Something like Exclusive XML Canonicalization Version 1.0?
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  283. # [19:46] <tantek> manu1 - there's the output of the parsing algorithm
  284. # [19:48] <Philip`> manu1: You could use the HTML fragment serialization algorithm with some extra constraint on the ordering of attributes, if you want a string representation and don't care about not being able to represent all possible (or even all conforming) DOMs, I guess
  285. # [19:48] <Hixie> annevk: yeah in the diff i mention that this is post-url-parsing/resolution so hopefully that matches what browsers do (in particular, you canonicalise the case of the scheme and host tokens, right?)
  286. # [19:48] <manu1> tantek: If two different implementations implement the parsing algorithm correctly, and serialize the result of the parsing algorithm to a string, are both strings guaranteed to be equivalent? (for example, if you wanted to create a digital signature of a serialized HTML5 string, could you do it via two different implementations of the HTML5 spec)?
  287. # [19:48] <Hixie> Philip`: just use xml c14n and xhtml
  288. # [19:50] <manu1> Hixie, Philip`, tantek: This is for the HTMLLiteral stuff that the RDF WG just created - they want a native RDF datatype for HTML Literals (as opposed to XML Literals)... and I'm trying to figure out if there is a way of deterministically generating a string that expresses such a thing (like there is for XML C14N)
  289. # [19:51] <Hixie> ain't no such thing as an html fragment, so...
  290. # [19:51] <manu1> It would be fine to say that there is no canonical form for an HTMLLiteral... but some of the more pedantic people would be upset by that, I imagine.
  291. # [19:51] <Hixie> there's no form at all, let alone canonical
  292. # [19:51] <Hixie> so the pedantic people would be already having all kinds of trouble
  293. # [19:52] <manu1> right, that's the conclusion I came to from reading various parts of the HTML5 spec.
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  295. # [19:53] <manu1> k, thx Hixie, tantek, Philip` - I'll try to do something sane that doesn't cause the RDF WG to flip out.
  296. # [19:53] <Hixie> (for example, there's no way to even know what namespace a fragment like "<a/>x" should result in, or whether it should be an element node with a child text node or a sibling text node)
  297. # [19:53] <tantek> I don't know Hixie, the HTML5 spec is quite detailed, something I think pedantic people would very much appreciate. ;)
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  303. # [20:06] <zewt> bleh, how is it that there are no numeric comparison operators in CSS selectors
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  305. # [20:12] <tantek> like :nth-child ?
  306. # [20:12] <tantek> (an+b) and all that
  307. # [20:12] <tantek> what's the use case you're trying to solve?
  308. # [20:12] <zewt> <html data-foo=10> html[data-foo>5]
  309. # [20:12] * Philip` wants to be able to select all prime-numbered paragraphs
  310. # [20:12] <zewt> (where it's actually something like the window size, etc)
  311. # [20:18] <zewt> i end up having to precompute all of the comparisons, which works but is pretty lame
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  313. # [20:39] <tantek> indeed, I want to do similar things with attributes for values for things like styling barcharts
  314. # [20:40] <tantek> I think the answer to your original questions about (lack of existence) is, 1. there hasn't been well documented use cases (a few lines on IRC is a good start, but a wiki page would be nicer), and 2. we haven't figured out a good way to do so in CSS selector syntax.
  315. # [20:40] <tantek> I think if you work on *either* of those, you would increase the chances of such CSS selectors being created
  316. # [20:41] <tantek> as I think there would be others (myself included) interested in helping such a proposal along in CSSWG. I can see TabAtkins being interested too.
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  324. # [21:01] <SimonSapin> zewt, tantek: I could be interested in making this happen too
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  335. # [21:54] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: you need to update your scripts: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-cascade/
  336. # [21:55] <SimonSapin> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/rev/692c54ee5a46
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  340. # [22:02] <Hixie> can someone with IE load up http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1974 then hit the submit button and tell me what it says in the log?
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  354. # [22:44] <Velmont> So, doing some web developer stuff. Coded after specs, works in Opera. Testing in fx and chrome, oh-noes, it doesn't work. Grr. Feeling the angry webdev wrath :P
  355. # [22:45] <SimonSapin> Velmont: I can’t believe that would happen ;)
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  357. # [22:47] <Velmont> SimonSapin: So I have to go through and debug what standard-features they don't support. :] Kinda looking forward to testing IE10 tomorrow, I actually think it'll work there.
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  368. # [23:34] <annevk> Hixie: the plan is to do host normalisation, but I don't know what type yet because browser vendors cannot make up their mind
  369. # [23:35] <annevk> Hixie: but yes, the parser normalises URLs insofar browsers normalise URLs, I might define some additional normalisation/comparison algorithms for use in the API
  370. # [23:35] <annevk> (input on which would be much appreciated)
  371. # [23:36] <Hixie> lgtm
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  374. # [23:56] <annevk> Ms2ger: fwiw, plh has done the blocking references thing to WHATWG drafts since forever
  375. # [23:59] <annevk> Ms2ger: though changing things to link to TR/ is just plain moronic
  376. # [23:59] <annevk> Ms2ger: I doubt they realize that means things like ByteString are not defined...
  377. # Session Close: Mon Dec 03 00:00:00 2012

The end :)