/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-12-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Dec 05 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:05] <annevk> Hixie: maybe have "event parent" (defined on Document to be Window) and "event parent tree" (defined on Window to be container node)
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  6. # [00:06] <Hixie> that works too
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  8. # [00:06] <Hixie> what terminology should i use?
  9. # [00:06] <Hixie> well
  10. # [00:07] <Hixie> "event parent tree" doesn't work because i want to just point to the iframe
  11. # [00:07] <Hixie> and have the tree be implied
  12. # [00:07] <annevk> right the DOM spec would do the looping and building
  13. # [00:07] <annevk> maybe
  14. # [00:07] <Hixie> and it's a different relationship, "event parent" and "event parent tree" sound like they're the same thing
  15. # [00:07] <annevk> event cross-boundary parent
  16. # [00:07] <Hixie> k
  17. # [00:08] <annevk> and then whenever there's a cross-boundary parent I start building up a new tree
  18. # [00:08] <annevk> dglazkov: at some point you need to define your stuff in terms of this
  19. # [00:08] <Hixie> so for seamless i just have to say:
  20. # [00:08] <Hixie> <p>The <span>nested browsing context</span>'s <code>Window</code> object's <span>event
  21. # [00:08] <Hixie> cross-boundary parent</span> is the <span>browsing context container</span>.</p>
  22. # [00:08] <Hixie> (guaranteed to be same-origin for now)
  23. # [00:09] <Hixie> (i'll make sure not to do this if it's ever cross-origin)
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  25. # [00:09] <annevk> yeah, cross-origin could only work if they share the event loop, which is nasty
  26. # [00:09] <Hixie> well iframes and their parents have to share an event loop
  27. # [00:10] <Hixie> but events leaking out of cross-origin stuff is all manner of scary
  28. # [00:11] <Hixie> hm the logs don't seem to have the above yet
  29. # [00:11] <annevk> (I suggested this terminology btw because this also works if we want to do events on completely different trees, or non-trees)
  30. # [00:11] <Hixie> oh, it crossed a day boundary
  31. # [00:11] <Hixie> nevermind
  32. # [00:11] <Hixie> ok for Window i've left the old text for now, but commented out i have:
  33. # [00:11] <Hixie> <p>If a <code>Document</code> object is associated with a <code>Window</code> object, its
  34. # [00:11] <Hixie> <span>event parent</span> is that <code>Window</code> object.</p>
  35. # [00:12] <annevk> if you want I can fix that pretty quickly
  36. # [00:12] <Hixie> i'm in no rush
  37. # [00:12] <annevk> k
  38. # [00:12] <Hixie> that last bit is just editorial
  39. # [00:13] <annevk> the abstract event object thing is what requires a bit more thinking
  40. # [00:13] <Hixie> and the hard part of the event redispatching stuff is how to clone the events
  41. # [00:13] <annevk> right
  42. # [00:13] <annevk> my funding is primarily for URL work, with other things as I get to them, so I try to stick to that for now
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  44. # [00:13] <Hixie> k
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  48. # [00:20] <annevk> Hixie: btw, make it cross-boundary event parent, sound a lot better
  49. # [00:20] <annevk> sounds*
  50. # [00:21] <Hixie> k
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  57. # [00:36] <Hixie> AryehGregor: yt?
  58. # [00:37] <Hixie> nm
  59. # [00:38] <zewt> wow, charles-whoever trying to censor complaints of plagiarism makes me pretty much lose any vestige of whatever opinion i might still have had for the w3c
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  63. # [00:39] <hober> that reminds me, time to catch up on public-webapps
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  69. # [00:50] <zewt> cool, paypal broke password autocomplete in firefox, welcome back to the dark ages
  70. # [00:50] <zewt> nothing is quite as insecure as making people actually type in passwords
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  75. # [00:57] <smaug____> dglazkov: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/custom/index.html#extensions-to-document-interface
  76. # [00:57] <smaug____> is dictionary LifecycleCallbacks really right?
  77. # [00:57] <smaug____> is that even valid webidl?
  78. # [00:58] <smaug____> I would have expected callback interface LifecycleCallbacks { created() }; or something like that
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  80. # [00:59] <zewt> "we will focus our efforts on SMPTE-TT."
  81. # [01:00] <zewt> random viacom employee sure takes his ball and goes home fast at the first sign of disagreement
  82. # [01:00] <Hixie> i don't know if SMPTE-TT does pixel-perfect positioning, but if so, that is the appropriate thing to do for their use case
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  86. # [01:00] <Hixie> i don't understand why they weren't trying to do that in the first placre
  87. # [01:00] <Hixie> place, even
  88. # [01:01] <zewt> but it wasn't in response to "you should do this in SMPTE-TT", it was in resposne to "what you're saying is incorrect"
  89. # [01:01] <Hixie> i'll take it either way...
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  93. # [01:01] <Hixie> (i also don't understand why they're trying to do what they're trying to do)
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  95. # [01:02] <zewt> i'm also a bit tired of the "we need to add *feature* because it exists in *random other spec*", as if that shortcuts the requirement to actually justify a feature
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  97. # [01:03] <Hixie> especially given that there have been studies cited, including one actually available to read, that show that eye tracking experiments show that this feature is bad
  98. # [01:03] <Hixie> if they want to disagree, they should at least show studies explaining why they think this one is wrong
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  102. # [01:06] <zewt> i'm not a fan of the "if you want XXX then show studies" (in either direction) argument, but "our lawyers tell us we have to have this feature, so stop arguing with me and just do it without any evidence" needs to stop
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  104. # [01:06] <Hixie> oh i'm not saying "if you want XXX then show studies", I'm saying that if one side has shown studies (as nessy did in this case, though it supported the no-rollup side, not the rollup side) then the other side needs to at least address it.
  105. # [01:07] <zewt> sure, "give an argument of why this study is wrong", just not "show a study explaining" :)
  106. # [01:07] <Hixie> fair cop
  107. # [01:07] <Hixie> pretty sure in this case the only counter argument would be more data showing this data is questionable
  108. # [01:08] <zewt> if a realistic number of users would seriously prefer roll-up (irrespective of whether it's better or worse for them) i think that would be compelling, but that's hard to demonstrate (and simply asking people is probably completely useless)
  109. # [01:09] <Hixie> yeah asking people what they want is surprisingly useless
  110. # [01:09] <Hixie> it's amazing to watch people be given what they want and have them say "oh no, that's terrible"
  111. # [01:09] <zewt> since probably the vast majority of people just don't know, so you probably end up with 50/50
  112. # [01:09] <Hixie> and vice versa (give them something else and having them say "wow that's perfect")
  113. # [01:09] <Hixie> yeah
  114. # [01:10] <Hixie> i've watched a lot of usability studies where the subject says things that directly contradict what they're actually doing
  115. # [01:10] <Hixie> it's fascinating to watch
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  117. # [01:10] <Hixie> (and incredibly frustrating when it's your product that they're testing)
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  119. # [01:11] <zewt> heh and this pretty much confirms the 50/50 theory conclusively in my mind: "half the users in that analysis said that they prefer the roll-up display style"
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  121. # [01:11] <Hixie> yeah, compare the poll results to the eye tracking part of the study
  122. # [01:11] <Hixie> it's fascinating
  123. # [01:11] <zewt> congrats, you just ran a coin tossing survey
  124. # [01:17] <Hixie> i'd hate to hear your opinions about US elections then ;-)
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  126. # [01:19] <tantek> Hixie, indeed, especially in Florida: http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/state-regional-govt-politics/early-voting-curbs-called-power-play/nTFDy/
  127. # [01:19] <Hixie> wow they're actually admitting it now?
  128. # [01:19] <tantek> indeed
  129. # [01:20] <Hixie> (though that wasn't what i meant re zewt's comment -- i meant just that they're near 50:50, so by his argument, it's just a coin toss and we shouldn't bother :-) )
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  133. # [01:28] <dbaron> they've been admitting it for a while
  134. # [01:29] <dbaron> http://www.economist.com/node/21558603
  135. # [01:29] <dbaron> "The House majority leader in Pennsylvania, where a voter-ID law went into effect in March, crowed in June that the new law “is going to allow Governor Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania.”"
  136. # [01:31] <tantek> and today a bunch of GOP voted against the disability treaty: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/05/us/despite-doles-wish-gop-rejects-disabilities-treaty.html (despite a visit by former Republican leader Dole, in his wheelchair).
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  139. # [01:32] <tantek> seems awfully short-sighted (no pun intended) in terms of their own self-interest, won't most of those that voted against it be aging and disabled soon enough?
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  214. # [05:29] <MikeSmith> Hixie: congratulations on 9 years
  215. # [05:29] <Hixie> nine years of what?
  216. # [05:29] <Hixie> oh hey, it's nine years
  217. # [05:29] <MikeSmith> yeah man
  218. # [05:29] <Hixie> i totally hadn't noticed
  219. # [05:29] <Hixie> thanks :-)
  220. # [05:29] <MikeSmith> thanks mattur
  221. # [05:29] <MikeSmith> *thank mattur
  222. # [05:29] <MikeSmith> for the reminder
  223. # [05:29] <MikeSmith> lotta years
  224. # [05:29] <Hixie> man what a ride
  225. # [05:30] <MikeSmith> here's to 9 more!
  226. # [05:31] <Hixie> more than 9 years actually, http://www.hixie.ch/specs/html/forms/hfp.html is from september :-)
  227. # [05:31] <MikeSmith> hey 9 more will bring us almost right up to your 2022 goal
  228. # [05:31] <Hixie> yup
  229. # [05:31] <Hixie> in september this year i was on track to getting to CR by 2012, too
  230. # [05:31] <Hixie> (as in, zero bugs zero e-mails)
  231. # [05:31] <Hixie> looks like i may miss that by a few weeks though
  232. # [05:31] <Hixie> had a cold a few weeks ago that totally threw me off track
  233. # [05:32] <Hixie> and then some other stuff came up the week after
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  235. # [05:33] <MikeSmith> well, get on it man
  236. # [05:33] <Hixie> trying! :-P
  237. # [05:33] <MikeSmith> fix the bugs I submitted first!
  238. # [05:34] <Hixie> i'm more behind on e-mails
  239. # [05:34] <MikeSmith> hey I guess I had the 2003-09 date on http://platform.html5.org/history/ after all
  240. # [05:34] <Hixie> i could always take a page from the htmlwg, and any bugs i don't have fixed by dec 31 just get marked LATER :-P
  241. # [05:34] <MikeSmith> hah
  242. # [05:35] <MikeSmith> see, you can learn something positive from the htmlwg after all!
  243. # [05:35] <Hixie> yeah, that's what that would be :-P
  244. # [05:35] <MikeSmith> :D
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  253. # [06:44] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i fixed one of your three bugs. the other two are outline algorithm bugs and i'm too tired to think about that algorithm right now :-)
  254. # [06:44] <MikeSmith> heh
  255. # [06:44] <MikeSmith> I know that feeling!
  256. # [06:45] <Hixie> i dunno why it's so hard to define the outline
  257. # [06:45] <Hixie> intuitively i think there has to be a clearer way to do it
  258. # [06:45] <Hixie> but every time i've tried it's ended up at least as bad as what the spec has
  259. # [06:45] <MikeSmith> well, I have a working implementation of it now, in the validator code
  260. # [06:46] <MikeSmith> but still I empathize with the person who has to try to implement if from the spec
  261. # [06:46] <MikeSmith> the next person
  262. # [06:46] <Hixie> yeah me too
  263. # [06:46] <Hixie> that's not my best work by far
  264. # [06:46] * Quits: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199) (Remote host closed the connection)
  265. # [06:47] <MikeSmith> I think it's mostly great as-is
  266. # [06:47] <MikeSmith> really the only problems I have with it are those two things I filed bugs about
  267. # [06:47] <Hixie> it's not "great", but i don't know how to make it better (other than minor things like your bugs)
  268. # [06:47] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  269. # [06:47] <MikeSmith> yeah
  270. # [06:47] <MikeSmith> anyway, thanks for fixing those datetime examples
  271. # [06:48] <MikeSmith> also thanks for integrating Fullscreen (even though that's not one of mine -- happy to see it go in)
  272. # [06:49] <Hixie> it was just the next thing on the list
  273. # [06:49] <Hixie> it was the next thing on the list before, but then the comcast guy commented on th ebug which sent it to the bottom of the list agani :-)
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  275. # [06:51] <Hixie> nessy! yt?
  276. # [06:52] <nessy> hi, yes :-)
  277. # [06:52] <Hixie> woot, been trying to catch you for days :-)
  278. # [06:52] <Hixie> had a question, one sec
  279. # [06:52] <nessy> ha, sorry
  280. # [06:53] <Hixie> it's about the patches and the github branch
  281. # [06:53] <Hixie> so it looks like r7529 is in
  282. # [06:53] <nessy> the whatwg patches that I pull into the W3C spec?
  283. # [06:53] <Hixie> but that r7528 isn't
  284. # [06:53] <Hixie> and i was wondering if i'm just misreading it, or if it's intentional, or what
  285. # [06:53] <Hixie> and if the latter, if it was documented anywhere which patches were in and which weren't
  286. # [06:54] <nessy> let me check
  287. # [06:55] <nessy> 7528 is staged in the editorial_fixes branch
  288. # [06:55] <nessy> you've seen the picture at https://github.com/w3c/html ?
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  290. # [06:56] <Hixie> yeah that just confused me more
  291. # [06:56] <Hixie> so does that mean it goes in next week then?
  292. # [06:56] <Hixie> (what does "editorial" mean in this context?)
  293. # [06:56] <nessy> the editorial_fixes branch is there to feed both, HTML5.0 and the upcoming HTML5.1 WD
  294. # [06:58] <nessy> "editorial" means bug fixes (for bugs that apply to HTML5.0) and typos
  295. # [06:58] <Hixie> ah ok
  296. # [06:58] <nessy> I should probably apply those directly to HTML5.1
  297. # [06:58] <Hixie> (fwiw, that's the opposite of the meaning of the term in common usage)
  298. # [06:59] <nessy> cause I apply the others to master immediately
  299. # [06:59] <Hixie> ("editorial" normally means "things that don't affect the normative meaning")
  300. # [06:59] <nessy> yeah, that's the typos
  301. # [06:59] <nessy> but we have to feed the bug fixes in somehow, too, so they go with those
  302. # [06:59] <Hixie> ah k
  303. # [06:59] <nessy> eventually there shouldn't be any more bug fixes to HTML5.0, that's why it got that name
  304. # [06:59] <nessy> it's a bit misleading right now
  305. # [07:00] <Hixie> yeah i don't understand how that will ever happen, but that's another story
  306. # [07:00] <Hixie> anyway, ok, thanks
  307. # [07:00] <nessy> and yes, it goes in "next week" (which should have been yesterday...)
  308. # [07:00] <nessy> I'm a bit behind - you've been a busy bee :-)
  309. # [07:01] <Hixie> heh, i was just complaining to mike that i've been slacking :-)
  310. # [07:01] <nessy> I'm behind by about 2 weeks!
  311. # [07:02] <nessy> when 7530 hit me, I took a break ;-)
  312. # [07:02] <Hixie> heh yeah, sorry about that
  313. # [07:02] <Hixie> there's a few more of those coming
  314. # [07:03] <nessy> are you removing markers?
  315. # [07:03] <Hixie> trying to get the spec into the new 100-character width so i can actually use my monitor
  316. # [07:03] <nessy> I thought there was a new monitor involved … re-formatting the width seemed strange
  317. # [07:03] <Hixie> the 72 character limit was becoming ridiculous, i have a 27" monitor
  318. # [07:04] <nessy> you're also removing some markers with the reformatting - are there any I need to care about (other than w3c-html)?
  319. # [07:04] <nessy> e.g. "VERSION"
  320. # [07:04] <Hixie> that's just a comment, not special at all
  321. # [07:04] <Hixie> most of the all-caps words in the spec are just there so i can search for things quickly
  322. # [07:04] <Hixie> e.g. REFS or ACKS
  323. # [07:04] <Hixie> or FORK
  324. # [07:04] <nessy> yeah, I suppose I need to leave the postmsg, websocket-api, etc in
  325. # [07:05] <Hixie> you probably don't need those
  326. # [07:05] <Hixie> they're for the webapps specs
  327. # [07:05] <Hixie> there's also some old ones in there that i've been cleaning out, like whatwg-workers
  328. # [07:05] <Hixie> from years ago
  329. # [07:06] <nessy> MD is also only for search, right ? cause microdata is the one that delimits the spec
  330. # [07:06] <Hixie> yeah
  331. # [07:06] <nessy> ok, cool
  332. # [07:07] <nessy> so I'm probably ok with just microdata, w3c-html, 2dcontext (and complete, dev-html)
  333. # [07:07] <Hixie> you can probably drop those last two too
  334. # [07:07] <nessy> doesn't hurt to leave those in sync with yours
  335. # [07:08] <nessy> I came across html-device the other day - that can really go, right?
  336. # [07:09] <nessy> I even tried to list them in https://github.com/w3c/html/blob/master/markers.md (you'll find that amusing for sure)
  337. # [07:12] * Joins: niloy (~niloy@203.196.177.156)
  338. # [07:12] <nessy> oh, and I noticed you should update http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#What_are_the_various_versions_of_the_spec.3F - there are a few missing like WebVTT
  339. # [07:14] <Hixie> html-device is aaaancient, yeah
  340. # [07:15] <Hixie> webvtt is intentionally not in that list since whatwg doesn't currently publish it at all
  341. # [07:18] <nessy> ah I see
  342. # [07:19] <nessy> right, it's part of the whatwg html spec - forgot
  343. # [07:20] <nessy> though your list includes references between sections and W3C specs
  344. # [07:20] <MikeSmith> annevk: https://twitter.com/cgiffard/status/276196845187895296 "Does anybody know of a service that can validate CORS headers? Mine fail intermittently in Chrome. It's driving me nuts."
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  346. # [07:23] <Hixie> nessy: it's not in the whatwg html spec
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  350. # [07:26] <nessy> ah! right.
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  357. # [07:50] <kennyluck> What's the history of testharness.js before https://github.com/jgraham/testharness.js/commits/master?page=2 ? Was it under cvs.w3.org or something?
  358. # [07:57] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
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  363. # [08:09] <niloy> for session storage, if a user does right click and open in new tab, the existing session variables should get copied to the new tab, right?
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  368. # [08:27] <hsivonen> annevk: was your “o_O” about the polyglot comment thread on Sam’s blog about what Sam said, what I said or in general?
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  378. # [08:43] <odinho> kennyluck: I heard it was developed on the internal svn testsuites system of Opera, but then he said "no, it was really all on my laptop".
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  380. # [08:44] <kennyluck> odinho, oh, ok. Thanks.
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  387. # [08:57] <odinho> kennyluck: At least, our first record of testharness.js is 872 days ago, by jgraham, called "sync". The next few updates are from annevk :P
  388. # [08:58] <odinho> No, it's called "inital work on W3C test harness", 872 days, 20h ago. I didn't go far enough back on that day. :]
  389. # [08:59] <kennyluck> odinho, 872 days :) Was that record in the svn repository you mentioned?
  390. # [08:59] <odinho> kennyluck: Yep.
  391. # [08:59] <kennyluck> heh
  392. # [09:03] <odinho> The API in the initial version was test(), async_test() and on_event() globally, as well as the tests assert.exists() assert.true(), assert.equals(), assert.not_exists(), assert.readonly(), assert.unreached().
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  400. # [09:16] <hsivonen> can someone remind me what the two WGs were that merged into WebApps?
  401. # [09:16] <Ms2ger> WebAPI was one, I guess
  402. # [09:17] <hsivonen> and the other one was WAF
  403. # [09:17] <hsivonen> Web Application Formats
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  405. # [09:19] <a-ja> any browsers supporting :scoped yet?
  406. # [09:20] <Ms2ger> I've seen patches for Gecko which should land reasonably seem
  407. # [09:20] * a-ja asks cuz he noticed :-moz-scoped just landed
  408. # [09:22] <odinho> hsivonen: Hey. A friend of mine looking for a good html5 parser, I showed him the validator.nu one -- but how well does the c++-translation work now? Is it good to go?
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  410. # [09:22] <odinho> hsivonen: Or is Geckos parser better to rip out? (if it's reasonably self contained?)
  411. # [09:22] <Ms2ger> We prefixed? Bah
  412. # [09:22] <Ms2ger> odinho, same parser :)
  413. # [09:22] <odinho> Ms2ger: So the java->cpp is still going on and strong?
  414. # [09:23] <Ms2ger> Yep
  415. # [09:23] <a-ja> Ms2ger: on m-i anyway
  416. # [09:23] <odinho> No extra fastness-fixes etc? Ahh, okay, that's good. :D
  417. # [09:23] <MikeSmith> odinho: there's also Hubbub http://www.netsurf-browser.org/projects/hubbub/
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  419. # [09:24] <odinho> MikeSmith: Yeah, but that one was bad.
  420. # [09:24] <MikeSmith> odinho: I don't think the C++ version of validator.nu parser is portable yet outside of the mozilla context
  421. # [09:24] <MikeSmith> odinho: what's bad about it?
  422. # [09:24] <MikeSmith> a-ja: heycam|away working on scoped
  423. # [09:25] <MikeSmith> I thought Chrome has scoped too
  424. # [09:25] <odinho> MikeSmith: Don't know, -- broke too many sites I think, and something about API and something else. He had tried it, but let it go.
  425. # [09:25] <MikeSmith> ok
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  432. # [09:27] * Ms2ger sends hsivonen in to bug 648722 to complain about the prefix
  433. # [09:28] <odinho> OMFG prefix :(
  434. # [09:28] <odinho> Ms2ger: Good, send in them torpedos.
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  437. # [09:30] <a-ja> tks folks....fodder for some testing later on this wk
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  461. # [10:29] <zcorpan> a-ja: isn't it called :scope ?
  462. # [10:32] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, nope
  463. # [10:33] <a-ja> zcorpan: not sure...haven't tested. was just going by bug title
  464. # [10:34] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/selectors4/#the-scope-pseudo ?
  465. # [10:34] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, ah, yes, I meant it's implemented as -moz-scope
  466. # [10:34] <zcorpan> ok
  467. # [10:35] <a-ja> yeah....:-moz-scope is all over the patch that landed
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  471. # [10:36] <odinho> so it's like a -sniper-scope, only with more moz.
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  475. # [10:38] <annevk> hsivonen: Sam
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  477. # [10:42] <zcorpan> data:text/plain;foo="bar,baz";charset=utf8,body is an interesting case
  478. # [10:42] <zcorpan> opera gives an error
  479. # [10:43] <annevk> MikeSmith: don't know such a service
  480. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> ok
  481. # [10:45] <odinho> darobin, MikeSmith: Getting questions about the options-thingy on w3c-test. Did anyone ever find out anything about it? :-)
  482. # [10:45] <odinho> MikeSmith: Also, is w3c-test.org geodistributed?
  483. # [10:45] <darobin> odinho: I went as far as figuring out that a stock apache out of the box does not exhibit the problem
  484. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> that's farther than I went
  485. # [10:45] <darobin> so it's now a matter of divide and conquering to find where the problem comes from I reckon....
  486. # [10:46] <odinho> The CORS-tests I have is latency-dependent, when karlcow tried them in Japan they failed, I guess that is because Japan is far far away from my server at home. :P
  487. # [10:46] <darobin> heh
  488. # [10:46] <MikeSmith> odinho: w3c-test is one single humble machine
  489. # [10:46] <MikeSmith> at MIT I think
  490. # [10:46] <odinho> MikeSmith: So it'll have the same problem :-) Where is it?
  491. # [10:46] <odinho> Okay.
  492. # [10:46] <odinho> It works from here though... So Norway-MIT should be okay.
  493. # [10:48] <odinho> darobin: That's cool. :-) Definately something I can say and look like I did a lot of work on it ;-)
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  495. # [10:51] <hsivonen> Is there a limitation of up to one TAG participant per Member? Where is that documented?
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  500. # [10:55] <darobin> hsivonen: yes there is, and yes it is (in the Process I believe)
  501. # [10:55] <darobin> currently, it's a tight race
  502. # [10:56] <hsivonen> darobin: I don’t see it in the Process
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  506. # [10:57] <hsivonen> IIRC, there was a merger case that made two AB members be employees of on W3C Member and one of them stepped down.
  507. # [10:57] <hsivonen> but I can’t find Process grounds for that, either
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  509. # [10:58] <darobin> I'm in the process of rebooting firefox, I'll tell you when it's back
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  518. # [11:08] <darobin> hsivonen: http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/process.html#AB-TAG-constraints
  519. # [11:09] <icaaq> Let say i have a download link for a app with a specific languagepack, would it be appropriate to specify the language in the hreflang attribute on the download link? I know it's not commonly used/implemented. I'm mostly just thinking out load  http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/links.html#attr-hyperlink-hreflang
  520. # [11:11] <hsivonen> darobin: thank you
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  526. # [11:19] <annevk> Does ECMAScript use properties that can be set? For some reason I'm drawing a blank
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  528. # [11:20] <annevk> I wonder when https://www.w3.org/2012/12/03-tag-nominations is going to be public. I still don't quite know what's going on
  529. # [11:22] <annevk> Running for TAG without Member access is extremely non-transparent
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  534. # [11:28] <kennyluck> annevk, are you sure they are not going to make you sign the Invited Expert agreement if you really get elected?
  535. # [11:28] <annevk> kennyluck: you have to agree to sign it to become nominated
  536. # [11:29] <kennyluck> annevk, oh ok. That's a news to me (that you signed the agreement).
  537. # [11:30] <annevk> It's not a big deal, I'm just not going to join any WGs (other than the TAG) and contribute content to them.
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  540. # [11:33] <Stevef_> annevk: how many seats are up for grabs?
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  542. # [11:35] <annevk> Stevef_: four I'm told, but it's a secret
  543. # [11:35] <annevk> actually, maybe that can be derived from public information
  544. # [11:36] <Stevef_> so you have a 50/50 chance :-)
  545. # [11:37] <Stevef_> you'd get my vote if I had one
  546. # [11:37] <annevk> Stevef_: if people vote randomly :-)
  547. # [11:37] <SimonSapin> I’ll share the big secret that we are voting for four seats
  548. # [11:37] <annevk> (but since the majority of companies is prolly US-based, that might be the case)
  549. # [11:39] <SimonSapin> so annevk, what do you plan to do if elected? :p
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  551. # [11:39] <annevk> SimonSapin: figure out how we can get the group to talk about architecture again?
  552. # [11:40] <annevk> that is, instead of Linked Data semantic debate, have web technology architecture debate
  553. # [11:40] <SimonSapin> what is web technology architecture?
  554. # [11:40] <annevk> it's weird :-)
  555. # [11:46] <annevk> what I'd be interested in looking at is sort of a high-level overview of what's being created, what the various issues are we're running into regularly, and if there's a way we do better
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  557. # [11:47] <annevk> it seems like something that's worthwhile to brainstorm about now and then
  558. # [11:50] <SimonSapin> ok
  559. # [11:52] <annevk> darobin: we need an election hashtag
  560. # [11:52] <SimonSapin> also, each member gets to vote for up to 4 candidates. I don’t know (or care) if that’s supposed to be public
  561. # [11:52] <darobin> #tag?
  562. # [11:52] <annevk> #tag2013 ? :-)
  563. # [11:52] <darobin> yeah that works too
  564. # [11:53] <darobin> #FourHorsemen
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  566. # [11:53] <annevk> heh
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  568. # [12:03] <zcorpan> icaaq: that seems OK, but also pretty useless except as a styling hook for yourself
  569. # [12:03] <icaaq> zcorpan: yes
  570. # [12:05] <icaaq> zcorpan: and "maybe" SEO http://support.google.com/webmasters/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=189077
  571. # [12:07] <zcorpan> icaaq: is the app a translation of the page?
  572. # [12:08] <icaaq> zcorpan: no, i was thinking of maybe a localized version of a browser
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  581. # [12:31] <annevk> I like how simple GitHub.app makes reverting stuff
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  584. # [12:36] <SimonSapin> uh, apparently the culprit for RFC 2397 is running for TAG
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  586. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> SimonSapin: he's already on the TAG :)
  587. # [12:39] <SimonSapin> I’m no sure how much I can blame him for not defining error handling 14 years ago
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  632. # [14:13] <jgraham> SimonSapin: Well, if we kick out all the people that didn't define error handing in the past, I suggest starting with those responsible for RFC 1945
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  635. # [14:15] <SimonSapin> jgraham: I’m considering who to give one vote to or not. I didn’t say anything about kicking anybody out.
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  642. # [14:20] <darobin> SimonSapin: I reckon you could vote for the Four Horsemen ticket
  643. # [14:20] <SimonSapin> Four Horsemen?
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  646. # [14:22] <annevk> marcosc, wycats_, slightlyoff, and I, I think
  647. # [14:23] <hsivonen> darobin: I think https://www.w3.org/2012/12/03-tag-nominations is missing some asterisks
  648. # [14:23] <darobin> what annevk said
  649. # [14:26] <darobin> hsivonen: indeed, reported
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  651. # [14:27] <hsivonen> darobin: thanks
  652. # [14:27] <marcosc> darobin: when do the elections end?
  653. # [14:27] <darobin> late Dec, early Jan IIRC
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  655. # [14:28] <SimonSapin> 9 january
  656. # [14:29] <marcosc> thanks SimonSapin
  657. # [14:32] <darobin> I recommend candidates start campaigning now
  658. # [14:33] <darobin> wycats_: you up?
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  663. # [14:37] <annevk> darobin: tweeted
  664. # [14:37] <annevk> darobin: not inspired yet for that longer email
  665. # [14:37] <darobin> annevk: whenever you're ready
  666. # [14:37] <darobin> but don't wait too long!
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  669. # [14:40] <SimonSapin> darobin: it’s slightly weird that the "success" message when submitting a WBS form is red
  670. # [14:40] <darobin> SimonSapin: I'll pass that along
  671. # [14:41] <SimonSapin> no big deal
  672. # [14:41] <darobin> yeah, but easy fix
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  674. # [14:41] <darobin> I'll leave it in the systeam's capable hands
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  690. # [15:22] * hsivonen finds https://twitter.com/antimattur
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  693. # [15:30] * zcorpan expected to find something amusing but was disappointed
  694. # [15:32] <annevk> zcorpan: are you referring to the status code he included in his status?
  695. # [15:32] <annevk> or she, I suppose
  696. # [15:33] <zcorpan> annevk: no the tweets
  697. # [15:33] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@FL1-119-240-234-234.tky.mesh.ad.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
  698. # [15:33] * annevk was trying to make a meta joke
  699. # [15:35] * Joins: danzik17 (~danzik17@164.55.254.106)
  700. # [15:38] * Ms2ger wonders if the list of TAG candidates and their affiliations are public
  701. # [15:39] <zcorpan> "Although some interpretations differ, in most accounts, the four riders are seen as symbolizing Conquest,[1] War,[2] Famine,[3] and Death, respectively." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Apocalypse
  702. # [15:39] <zcorpan> now, identify yourselves
  703. # [15:39] * Joins: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  704. # [15:39] <zcorpan> or, what's your favorite color?
  705. # [15:40] <annevk> In other news, reading @mattur's feed I found https://twitter.com/tehu/status/272985237129158656
  706. # [15:40] <annevk> which is rather interesting
  707. # [15:41] <zcorpan> i seem to recall annevk's favorite color is papayawhip. hence pale, and Death.
  708. # [15:43] <annevk> I'll anoint you as campaign manager
  709. # [15:43] <Ms2ger> Can we donate to your campaign? :)
  710. # [15:45] <annevk> What's your favorite color? Papayawhip. What's your quest? To serve on the TAG. What's the average airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? An African or European swallow?
  711. # [15:45] <annevk> aaaaaahh
  712. # [15:46] <Ms2ger> Poor TimBL
  713. # [15:47] <annevk> Ms2ger: please turn any monetary contributions into patches: https://github.com/whatwg
  714. # [15:47] <Ms2ger> Any patches you'd like to see? :)
  715. # [15:47] <annevk> cross-boundary events? :)
  716. # [15:48] <Ms2ger> I don't want you on the TAG quite *that* badly
  717. # [15:51] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: you can just transfer your money straight to my bank account.
  718. # [15:51] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, alright, I'll need your credit card number and its expiration date to do that
  719. # [15:52] <zcorpan> sure, lemme take a picture and tweet it.
  720. # [15:52] <odinho> Maybe TAG can make sugarapi a reality? :]
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  723. # [16:03] <darobin> no no, Ms2ger give your money to me so I can make attack ads!
  724. # [16:04] <darobin> annevk: I think Standards Suck should run an endorsement campaign
  725. # [16:05] <annevk> oh yeah, that's gonna go over real well with the AC :)
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  727. # [16:05] <darobin> annevk: every little bit helps!
  728. # [16:06] <annevk> https://twitter.com/annevk/status/276340860302524416
  729. # [16:08] <darobin> ooooh, putting an untested script straight into production and breaking everything — I'm a funny guy!
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  736. # [16:20] <SimonSapin> annevk: indeed, this requires a Standard Suck video
  737. # [16:23] <SimonSapin> annevk: bonus points if you’re interviewing yourself
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  752. # [16:47] <gsnedders> annevk: Post it as a badly compressed video in a standard format. Because standards sucks.
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  756. # [16:56] <SimonSapin> annevk: I’m not sure what you meant by "Please direct any media queries"
  757. # [16:56] <darobin> bonus points for using a DRM standard
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  767. # [17:16] <marcosc> annevk: I'm down to make a video
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  769. # [17:23] <darobin> marcosc: you really should
  770. # [17:23] <darobin> with unicorns
  771. # [17:24] <marcosc> I still have the video of you dancing around tpac. We could make some kind of composite
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  773. # [17:25] <marcosc> Us talking about the TAG with you and Lachy dancing in the bg
  774. # [17:25] <marcosc> that would be awesome
  775. # [17:26] <annevk> SimonSapin: it's a pun
  776. # [17:26] <Ms2ger> annevk, not a very good one, sorry
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  783. # [17:32] * darobin approves of annevk's pun
  784. # [17:32] <darobin> marcosc: that sounds okay, but I prefer unicorns
  785. # [17:34] <annevk> Ms2ger: still waiting for your content on twitter ;)
  786. # [17:34] <Ms2ger> Pff
  787. # [17:35] <Ms2ger> I'm pretty content without twitter
  788. # [17:35] <annevk> darobin: http://html5.org/temp/unicorn.svg
  789. # [17:35] * tantek checks ms2ger.com
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  791. # [17:35] <annevk> darobin: my long term goal is to get that in browsers as about:unicorn
  792. # [17:35] <darobin> I support that goal
  793. # [17:36] <darobin> though as stated before, I think that about:dahut would also be worthy of inclusion
  794. # [17:37] <Ms2ger> tantek, I'm not a commercial organisation ;)
  795. # [17:37] <annevk> darobin: is there an SVG for it?
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  797. # [17:37] <annevk> Ms2ger: y no ms2ger.be?
  798. # [17:38] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  799. # [17:38] <darobin> annevk: mmmm, that's a good question
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  801. # [17:38] <darobin> an ancient one, not so pretty http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Meuble_H%C3%A9raldique_Dahu.svg
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  803. # [17:39] <Ms2ger> annevk, I need to figure out who runs domain names in Eritrea...
  804. # [17:39] <darobin> the first his is https://github.com/darobin/couchdb-deploy/blob/master/t/dahut.svg, which isn't all that useful
  805. # [17:40] <annevk> I have that too now and then. Searching for something, only result is you ranting about there not being anything...
  806. # [17:41] <annevk> s/you/me/ too
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  808. # [17:44] <GPHemsley> zcorpan, SimonSapin: Interesting behavior with that data:text/plain;foo="bar,baz";charset=utf8,body
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  810. # [17:48] <SimonSapin> GPHemsley: it’s almost interoperable (Opera shows an error)
  811. # [17:48] <SimonSapin> but yeah, I expected this
  812. # [17:48] <GPHemsley> SimonSapin: Yeah, but interoperably *bad*
  813. # [17:49] <SimonSapin> GPHemsley: apart from charset, what MIME parameters are actually used on the web?
  814. # [17:49] <GPHemsley> I feel like I answered this before
  815. # [17:49] <SimonSapin> I was told some audio/video containers have other parameters
  816. # [17:49] <SimonSapin> yes
  817. # [17:49] <GPHemsley> but codecs, etc.
  818. # [17:49] <SimonSapin> do these ever contain a comma?
  819. # [17:49] <GPHemsley> absolutely
  820. # [17:49] <SimonSapin> oh
  821. # [17:50] <SimonSapin> it’s bad indeed
  822. # [17:50] <GPHemsley> turns out the MIME type parsing algorithm is more important than I thought :P
  823. # [17:50] <SimonSapin> but it sucks to have to parse quoted strings to know where the body starts
  824. # [17:50] <marcosc> ok, is public: https://www.w3.org/2012/12/03-tag-nominations
  825. # [17:51] <GPHemsley> SimonSapin: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4281
  826. # [17:51] <SimonSapin> GPHemsley: data:text/plain;foo="bar%2Cbaz";charset=utf8,body
  827. # [17:52] <GPHemsley> SimonSapin: Oh, right. I keep forgetting about percent-encoding.
  828. # [17:52] <GPHemsley> But still, it's like you fix one issue, and another pops up
  829. # [17:52] <GPHemsley> (like that issue with percent-encoding the semicolon)
  830. # [17:52] <SimonSapin> but actually they were all already there, staring at you, waiting for you to discover them :p
  831. # [17:53] <GPHemsley> I suppose
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  833. # [17:53] <GPHemsley> any idea what IE does to these?
  834. # [17:53] <GPHemsley> s/to/with/
  835. # [17:53] <SimonSapin> I’m fine with a rule like "any comma in the header has to be percent-encoded"
  836. # [17:54] <SimonSapin> I don’t have IE right now
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  840. # [17:55] <SimonSapin> Microsoft has some VMs available for IE 6~9, but I don’t know about 10
  841. # [17:55] <GPHemsley> Who's got IE and wants to test a bunch of data: URLs? :)
  842. # [17:55] <SimonSapin> GPHemsley: let’s perhaps write down a test suite, and then find people to run it?
  843. # [17:56] <GPHemsley> that works too :)
  844. # [17:56] <SimonSapin> I started something with testharness.js and XHR, but Chromium refuses to do XHR on data:, pretending it is cross-origin
  845. # [17:57] <GPHemsley> Simple <a> won't work?
  846. # [17:58] <SimonSapin> how do you get the parsed header/body from JS with <a>?
  847. # [17:58] <SimonSapin> or at least the body
  848. # [17:58] <GPHemsley> oh, well, I thought this was for human consumption
  849. # [17:59] <GPHemsley> but ok
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  851. # [18:01] <SimonSapin> GPHemsley: I like tests to be automatic, but maybe
  852. # [18:02] * SimonSapin off for the css conf call
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  855. # [18:06] <jdaggett> yes, it's me
  856. # [18:06] <jdaggett> (now muted)
  857. # [18:06] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: wrong channel?
  858. # [18:06] <jdaggett> zakim, ?p82 is me
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  860. # [18:07] <jdaggett> argh, thanks...
  861. # [18:07] <SimonSapin> :)
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  873. # [18:31] <annevk> dglazkov: yt?
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  887. # [18:44] <Ms2ger> CSSWG: still not sure about case-insensitivity
  888. # [18:46] <SimonSapin> several people in the group are sure, but don’t agree
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  894. # [18:52] <annevk> ASCII case-insensitive
  895. # [18:52] <annevk> it's not that hard
  896. # [18:52] <SimonSapin> annevk: some people say the same for unicode case folding
  897. # [18:52] <Ms2ger> Some people even think you're right
  898. # [18:52] <annevk> that's what the HTML parser does, and all this should follow from that, imo
  899. # [18:53] <annevk> SimonSapin: basically it's all case-sensitive, except for a few historical mistakes
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  902. # [18:55] <tantek> Norwegian vs. French, can we get a chef comparison? (Swedish chef close enough?)
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  905. # [19:01] <SimonSapin> http://www.inter-locale.com/test/css-case-sensitive-test.html multiple implementations make classes unicode case-insensitive
  906. # [19:02] <annevk> in quirks mode?
  907. # [19:03] <SimonSapin> not sure
  908. # [19:03] <annevk> pretty sure classes are case-sensitive
  909. # [19:03] <Ms2ger> Not in quirks
  910. # [19:05] <annevk> right
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  961. # [19:52] <annevk> http://davetroy.com/posts/the-real-republican-adversary-population-density is interesting
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  990. # [20:31] <tantek> great find annevk - that is fascinating
  991. # [20:32] <annevk> I can't take credit, I follow dbaron on Twitter, who RT'ed Asa Dotzler, who shared the link :)
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  999. # [20:42] <dbaron> I RT'ed somebody else RT'ing Asa, really
  1000. # [20:42] <dbaron> I think it was Jesse.
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  1005. # [20:46] <Ms2ger> Looks like http://www.w3.org/2012/12/03-tag-nominations is public now
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  1008. # [20:46] <Ms2ger> I'm surprised to see that Glenn Adams claims to be unaffiliated, since he also claims to represent Cox
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  1015. # [20:53] <SimonSapin> Ms2ger: represent or just nominated by?
  1016. # [20:53] * jonlee_ is now known as jonlee|afk
  1017. # [20:55] <GPHemsley> ugh RFC 2231
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  1020. # [20:55] <Ms2ger> SimonSapin, as in https://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=42538&public=1
  1021. # [20:56] <SimonSapin> I see
  1022. # [20:56] <SimonSapin> GPHemsley: I’m glad you’re doing that :)
  1023. # [21:01] <GPHemsley> SimonSapin: Heh. This algorithm is crazy.
  1024. # [21:01] <GPHemsley> So many steps
  1025. # [21:01] <GPHemsley> for something seemingly so intuitive
  1026. # [21:01] <SimonSapin> GPHemsley: could we drop half of it and only keep the common cases?
  1027. # [21:02] <SimonSapin> stuff like comments, line continuations, …
  1028. # [21:02] <GPHemsley> SimonSapin: Well, my first draft, I think, is just going to cover the basics, ignoring any special characters unless absolutely necessary.
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  1030. # [21:04] <GPHemsley> So basically, anything between ; and = that isn't whitespace or = is a parameter name, and anything between = and ; that isn't " or ; is a parameter value
  1031. # [21:05] <GPHemsley> and we'll take if from there
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  1033. # [21:05] <GPHemsley> though that admittedly completely ignores those RFC 822 comment things
  1034. # [21:05] <GPHemsley> s/" or ;/whitespace or " or ;/
  1035. # [21:06] <GPHemsley> s/if/it/
  1036. # [21:06] <SimonSapin> I’m confident nobody uses comments in data:
  1037. # [21:06] <SimonSapin> and only slightly less so in HTTP
  1038. # [21:06] <Ms2ger> Ehehehehe
  1039. # [21:06] <GPHemsley> agreed
  1040. # [21:06] <GPHemsley> (with both of you, I suppose)
  1041. # [21:07] <SimonSapin> let’s burn those who do
  1042. # [21:07] <GPHemsley> fine by me
  1043. # [21:07] <GPHemsley> :)
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  1045. # [21:08] <SimonSapin> but data only references the <attribute> and <value> production, so maybe even the RFC does not allow comments
  1046. # [21:09] <GPHemsley> I would like to make it so that there is only one possible syntax for MIME type, if at all possible
  1047. # [21:09] <GPHemsley> (which may mean willful violations here and there)
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  1049. # [21:09] <SimonSapin> only one possible? something like canonicalization?
  1050. # [21:10] <GPHemsley> well, what I mean is, all MIME types, no matter where they are (data: URLs, Content-Type headers, etc.) get parsed the same
  1051. # [21:10] <GPHemsley> canonicalization is another story
  1052. # [21:11] <GPHemsley> as in, we'll work within the spirit of the RFCs, if not necessary the letter
  1053. # [21:12] <GPHemsley> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_and_spirit_of_the_law
  1054. # [21:12] <GPHemsley> s/necessary/necessarily.
  1055. # [21:12] <GPHemsley> /
  1056. # [21:12] <GPHemsley> grrrrr
  1057. # [21:13] <GPHemsley> s/necessary/necessarily/
  1058. # [21:13] <SimonSapin> parsed the same, what about percent-encoding in data: ?
  1059. # [21:14] <GPHemsley> well, you'd have to deal with that yourself :P
  1060. # [21:14] <GPHemsley> but after percent-decoding
  1061. # [21:14] <GPHemsley> percent-encoding is necessary to fit the MIME type into the syntax of the URL
  1062. # [21:15] <GPHemsley> it's not inherent to the MIME type itself
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  1064. # [21:16] <SimonSapin> so: split at ","
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  1066. # [21:16] <SimonSapin> so: split at "," percent-decode and then parse as MIME?
  1067. # [21:16] <SimonSapin> so %3B and ; would always be the same?
  1068. # [21:18] <SimonSapin> I’d prefer this, but I can also imagine another interpretation where percent-decoding is only done on parameter values, after MIME parsing
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  1070. # [21:19] <GPHemsley> well, that
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  1073. # [21:19] <GPHemsley> well, that'll be up to you to determine, depending on relevant RFCs and implementations, but essentially, yes
  1074. # [21:21] <GPHemsley> if it turns out that only the parameters are percent-encoding, that would be a bummer
  1075. # [21:21] <GPHemsley> (though I know it's looking like that already)
  1076. # [21:22] <GPHemsley> unless you split on "," and then split on first ";", percent-decode, and then put it all back together to parse as MIME
  1077. # [21:22] <GPHemsley> that would make my life easier :)
  1078. # [21:22] <GPHemsley> hmm... I wonder if it'd be alright to treat comments like percent-encoding
  1079. # [21:23] <GPHemsley> such that it's protocol-specific and would need to be removed before percent-encoding
  1080. # [21:23] <GPHemsley> hmm
  1081. # [21:25] <GPHemsley> that way we can decouple the MIME type syntax from HTTP and, well, MIME
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  1086. # [21:34] <annevk> SimonSapin: GPHemsley: HTTP's usage of MIME is much more restricted, please stick to that
  1087. # [21:35] <GPHemsley> annevk: Restricted how?
  1088. # [21:35] <annevk> SimonSapin: GPHemsley: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2616#section-3.7
  1089. # [21:35] <GPHemsley> annevk: What makes that restricted?
  1090. # [21:36] <annevk> GPHemsley: there's no allowance for comments or any of that, just tokens
  1091. # [21:36] <annevk> (and whitespace)
  1092. # [21:36] <SimonSapin> data: does something similar
  1093. # [21:36] <GPHemsley> annevk: I was under the impression that comments (like whitespace) were allowed implicitly
  1094. # [21:37] <GPHemsley> annevk: But again, I was planning on leaving them out already, at least in the first draft.
  1095. # [21:37] <annevk> In any event though, it seems better to reverse engineer this from implementations and look at the actual implementations for verification
  1096. # [21:38] <GPHemsley> define "better"
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  1098. # [21:42] <GPHemsley> I think it's better to figure out what I think it should do, and then tweak it latest based on reverse-engineering to confirm.
  1099. # [21:42] <GPHemsley> (Admitting, of course, that I haven't defined "better" either.)
  1100. # [21:42] <GPHemsley> s/latest/later/
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  1143. # [23:01] <annevk> Hixie: I meant the exception defined here: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#events-and-the-window-object
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  1163. # [23:29] <Hixie> annevk: yeah, that's the second one i mentioned
  1164. # [23:31] <annevk> Hixie: was the first about body.onload and window.onload being the same?
  1165. # [23:31] <Hixie> there's some weirdness about what the target should be on the load event
  1166. # [23:31] <Hixie> see The End maybe?
  1167. # [23:31] <Hixie> (i'm fine leaving it specced as is)
  1168. # [23:32] <annevk> it's The End indeed, thanks
  1169. # [23:33] <annevk> the way that is defined seems fine
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  1179. # [23:55] <MikeSmith> "Do people need to present defensible theses
  1180. # [23:56] <MikeSmith> "Do people need to present defensible theses on every new addition to HTML to indicate that it's value is genuine?"
  1181. # [23:57] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Dec/0037.html
  1182. # [23:57] <MikeSmith> "did anyone have to provide a defense for HTML's ability to separate paragraphs from each other?"
  1183. # [23:57] <Hixie> ...why yes, yes they do
  1184. # [23:58] <MikeSmith> he's convinced me that policy needs to change!
  1185. # [23:59] <MikeSmith> from now on, no defensible thesis required!
  1186. # [23:59] <gsnedders> Hixie: Add a sarcasm element. It's value is genuine.
  1187. # [23:59] <gsnedders> *Its
  1188. # [23:59] <Hixie> gsnedders: check the spec
  1189. # Session Close: Thu Dec 06 00:00:00 2012

The end :)