/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-12-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Dec 07 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  17. # [00:46] <SimonSapin> annevk: should decode() throw when given an invalid label but the string has a BOM? The label would be ignored anyway
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  21. # [00:50] <SimonSapin> annevk: x-user-defined could also be implemented with an index, right?
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  23. # [00:54] <freedrull> what can websockets do that you couldn't do with server sent events and a http connection with keep-alive?
  24. # [00:54] <annevk> SimonSapin: x-user-defined, can, yes
  25. # [00:54] <annevk> SimonSapin: yes, decode() should throw
  26. # [00:54] <annevk> nn
  27. # [00:54] <Hixie> freedrull: nothing
  28. # [00:55] <freedrull> :\
  29. # [00:55] <Hixie> then again, server sent events and a http connection with keep-alive can't do anything a carrier pigeon couldn't do :-)
  30. # [00:55] <freedrull> haha
  31. # [00:55] <Hixie> it's just way simpler with websockets
  32. # [00:56] <freedrull> i see
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  38. # [01:14] <jsbell> annevk: In DOM4, DOMError loses the |message| attribute that was specified in DOM3. (Unless I'm misreading which I probably am.) Was that intentional?
  39. # [01:14] <jsbell> I get the sense it's deferred to the individual specification to say "oh, and stick a message on it if you want to, whatever"
  40. # [01:16] <jsbell> SimonSapin: are you implementing the Encoding API for moz?
  41. # [01:16] <jsbell> if so, nifty. :)
  42. # [01:16] <SimonSapin> jsbell: why moz?
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  44. # [01:17] <jsbell> I'm just guessing.
  45. # [01:17] <SimonSapin> I’m doing it in Python now
  46. # [01:17] <jsbell> Ah.
  47. # [01:18] <SimonSapin> maybe I’ll do in in rust later
  48. # [01:18] <SimonSapin> but only to learn rust, I’m not affiliated with Mozilla
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  50. # [01:18] <SimonSapin> though I’d be happy if Servo ends up using it
  51. # [01:19] <SimonSapin> apparently there’s already a JS implementation
  52. # [01:19] <jsbell> That'd probably be mine, though it's incomplete and needs updating since it was an early P.O.C.
  53. # [01:23] <SimonSapin> jsbell: were you talking of implementing it in gecko to replace whatever they have now?
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  59. # [01:32] <annevk> jsbell: yeah
  60. # [01:32] <annevk> jsbell: if you want message back in, file a bug
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  68. # [01:53] <SimonSapin> annevk, jsbell: (if you read logs) here is the python implementation: https://github.com/SimonSapin/python-webencodings
  69. # [01:53] <SimonSapin> although it’s cheating: the actual codec implementations are from the stdlib. Still useful to have the right set of labels and BOM handling.
  70. # [01:53] <SimonSapin> But I don’t know if it really helps to show implementability of the spec :/
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  148. # [05:41] <zewt> and in its now proven style, google completely destroys youtube's ui
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  160. # [06:25] <karlcow> zewt: it looks lire more and more like a Yahoo! portal homepage, which I thought google tried to escape somehow ☺ cycles.
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  190. # [07:26] <karlcow> rha again reading a message of Henry Story thinking it was written by Henri Sivonen and not understanding why Henri Sivonen would write such a message. Dyslexia my love. *sigh*
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  245. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> we just had a fairly biggish quake here
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  248. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> 7.3
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  250. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> http://quake.twiple.jp/quake/view/20121207171858
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  267. # [09:59] <asmodai> http://www.xkcd.com/
  268. # [09:59] <asmodai> Today's seems relevant.
  269. # [09:59] <asmodai> MikeSmith: Yeah, friend of mine is trying to get in touch with her sis up in Miyagi-ken.
  270. # [10:00] <asmodai> MikeSmith: They were lucky last time around, their house almost right on the coast/harbour
  271. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> asmodai: I think the damage was not big. Only a 1-meter tsunami
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  293. # [11:06] * gsnedders realizes he has no objection to a polyglot spec going to REC where the only normative content is, "a polyglot document is one which produces an identical DOM Document structure when parsed per both HTML5 and XML 1.0 combined being processed into an infoset and coerced into a DOM Document"
  294. # [11:07] <gsnedders> You can then informatively define what that subset is, and then you have a testable spec.
  295. # [11:07] <gsnedders> That doesn't normatively contradict anything.
  296. # [11:22] * Joins: drublic (~drublic@frbg-4d029fae.pool.mediaWays.net)
  297. # [11:25] <hsivonen> gsnedders: it will still cause a decade of 386 as people try to rationalize why polyglot is important to use, since it has to be important to use when there is a REC for it
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  300. # [11:29] <annevk> as long as the xkcd-level of discourse is still at mismatching tags we might not have much to worry about http://xkcd.com/1144/
  301. # [11:31] <SimonSapin> http://www.glazman.org/weblog/dotclear/index.php?post/2012/12/07/%C3%80-la-xkcd...
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  303. # [11:33] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Well, people don't try and rationalize why RDFa is important to use that much, despite for most things it not being very important.
  304. # [11:38] <darobin> RECs make people think things are important?
  305. # [11:38] * darobin lines up a bunch of RECs for world peace and stuff
  306. # [11:38] <darobin> we've found the trick!
  307. # [11:38] * darobin sings Heal The World
  308. # [11:39] <hsivonen> darobin: well, Notes might too, but the Process does not allow turning an item a WG has taken up into a blog post on intertwingly.net instead of either REC or Note.
  309. # [11:40] <hsivonen> gsnedders: you should look at Appendix C for precedent about rationalization
  310. # [11:40] <darobin> I don't think a REC will make people who don't already care think that polyglot is important
  311. # [11:40] <darobin> it's not as if it's being pitched in the way that XHTML was
  312. # [11:42] <darobin> when XHTML was being worked on, everyone was asking about their transition strategies
  313. # [11:42] <darobin> I have yet to get a single question about polyglot anywhere, conferences, meetups, consulting
  314. # [11:42] <darobin> I reckon it's not on the radar
  315. # [11:43] <gsnedders> Does IE9/10 parse MathML per HTML5?
  316. # [11:43] <gsnedders> I presume IE10 does. IE9?
  317. # [11:44] <darobin> gsnedders: if you give me a link I can point an IE10 at it
  318. # [11:44] <gsnedders> darobin: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2004
  319. # [11:45] <gsnedders> IE10 almost certainly will, IE9 is a bigger question.
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  321. # [11:46] <darobin> gsnedders: ah, damn, someone's using the Surface we have here — it'll have to wait a little bit sorry
  322. # [11:48] <hsivonen> gsnedders: IE10 doc.writes the MathML namespace URL
  323. # [11:48] * hsivonen boots Windows 7
  324. # [11:49] <gsnedders> Yeah, I was expecting that given they claim to support HTML5 parsing there. IE9 does SVG or SVG and MathML? Dunno.
  325. # [11:49] <gsnedders> Google doesn't seem to answer that.
  326. # [11:49] <hsivonen> gsnedders: IE9 doc.writes the XHTML namespace
  327. # [11:49] <gsnedders> Okay, thx.
  328. # [11:50] <hsivonen> s/math/svg/ makes IE9 doc.write the SVG namespace
  329. # [11:51] <hsivonen> (am I the only one around here with the basic set of Windows VMs?)
  330. # [11:51] <gsnedders> hsivonen: (I have them on my desktop, just not on my laptop)
  331. # [11:55] <hsivonen> Interesting how Opera.com gives a different download for Metro IE10 on Windows 8 and Desktop IE10 on Windows 8
  332. # [11:56] <hsivonen> at least last I tried, which was maybe a week ago or so
  333. # [11:56] <hsivonen> 64-bit for the former, 32-bit for the latter
  334. # [11:57] <hsivonen> even though you can see the OS is 64-bit even when IE is running in the 32-bit mode
  335. # [11:57] <hsivonen> which Desktop IE10 is by default
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  339. # [12:08] <darobin> hsivonen: I used to have the basic set of VMs but had excluded them from backup and lost them when I poured water on my previous laptop
  340. # [12:09] <darobin> need to set them up again, but lazy... I've been using some devices lying around in the meantime
  341. # [12:10] <Stevef> darobin: what do i need to do to get main ready for FPWD?
  342. # [12:10] <darobin> Stevef: let me look at it
  343. # [12:11] <Stevef> darobin: no rush
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  345. # [12:11] <darobin> Stevef: are you using Anolis?
  346. # [12:11] <Stevef> no
  347. # [12:12] <darobin> hand-written?
  348. # [12:12] <Stevef> yep
  349. # [12:12] <Stevef> sometimes use feet
  350. # [12:12] <Stevef> or bash keyboard with head
  351. # [12:13] <darobin> hehehe
  352. # [12:14] <darobin> okay, well in that case what you need to do is mostly to change the stylesheet and header boilerplate
  353. # [12:14] <hsivonen> I wonder if I’ve ever seen “forename” used in English anywhere other than in the LibreOffice UI (written by Germans probably)
  354. # [12:14] <darobin> I think you'll have to number the sections and all
  355. # [12:15] <hsivonen> hmm. maybe in some SNCF ticketing UI
  356. # [12:15] <hsivonen> (where they said just “name” for surname)
  357. # [12:16] <darobin> hendry: it's used, if not commonly http://www.wordnik.com/words/forename
  358. # [12:17] <hsivonen> yeah, I checked it actually exists in dictionaries
  359. # [12:17] <darobin> most words actually exist in English
  360. # [12:18] <SimonSapin> hsivonen: "name" for surname is probably a direct translation from french
  361. # [12:18] <darobin> I was more interested in usage — that it shows up in tweets shows it ain't quite dead
  362. # [12:18] <darobin> yeah, that's definitely a French error
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  364. # [12:18] <darobin> and forename is derived from praenomus (or whatever), so likewise frenchism
  365. # [12:19] <hsivonen> SimonSapin: yeah. (when using the English SNCF UI, it also helps to know that Roissy and Charles de Gaulle are the same thing)
  366. # [12:19] <SimonSapin> eh
  367. # [12:21] <darobin> hsivonen: next time you might be happier with capitainetrain.com
  368. # [12:21] <annevk> so we abstracted out append/remove, but not update for attributes...
  369. # [12:21] <annevk> that's kinda dumb
  370. # [12:21] <annevk> or maybe I should call that change?
  371. # [12:21] <hsivonen> darobin: I actually know enough French to be able to figure out the mistranslations and the implied synonym knowledge
  372. # [12:22] <darobin> hsivonen: yeah but the interface still sucks :)
  373. # [12:25] <annevk> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102698#c12 *sigh*
  374. # [12:26] <hsivonen> annevk: did you mean comment 17 rather than 12?
  375. # [12:26] <annevk> I linked to #12 for context
  376. # [12:27] <hsivonen> ok
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  378. # [12:30] <annevk> so what does "4114360123456785" mean in HTML?
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  380. # [12:30] <annevk> oh, it's an official sample credit card number, that's boring
  381. # [12:46] <annevk> Maybe attributes should have a pointer to their associated element as well... Not too important for now I suppose
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  387. # [13:04] <hsivonen> Stevef: FWIW, I still intend to raise an FO if the HTML WG removes hgroup from the parsing algorithm or the UA stylesheet
  388. # [13:04] <Stevef> hsivonen: i don't think that is an intention
  389. # [13:05] <Stevef> hsivonen: so raise away if that is an outcome
  390. # [13:06] <hsivonen> Stevef: your email did not make that clear
  391. # [13:06] <Stevef> hsivonen: I can do so
  392. # [13:08] <darobin> we can't remove hgroup, I use it on my blog!
  393. # [13:10] <MikeSmith> darobin: hopefully you will be cured of that eventually
  394. # [13:10] <MikeSmith> hgroup doesn't meet the high bar man
  395. # [13:10] <Stevef> hsivonen: email sent let me know if not clear enough
  396. # [13:10] <darobin> you're expecting me to update my blog???
  397. # [13:10] <darobin> I don't care about high bars, I'm more of a lowlife dive kinda guy
  398. # [13:10] <MikeSmith> hgroup doens't even meet the low bar!
  399. # [13:10] <MikeSmith> heh
  400. # [13:11] <Stevef> MikeSmith: some bars are higher...
  401. # [13:11] <darobin> I meet hgroup there quite often
  402. # [13:11] <darobin> poor thing's turned to drinking
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  404. # [13:11] <darobin> maybe we could ask MikeSmith to head to the bar on the Hilton in Tokyo
  405. # [13:11] <darobin> that's a really high bar
  406. # [13:12] <darobin> he could return with whatever elements he meets there
  407. # [13:12] <darobin> then we'd call it a day
  408. # [13:12] <MikeSmith> :)
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  411. # [13:12] <MikeSmith> my irssi right now is showing me a "Lag" indicator that it never did before
  412. # [13:13] <MikeSmith> but now it's gone
  413. # [13:13] <asmodai> Good indicator of incoming netsplits.
  414. # [13:13] <MikeSmith> I guess the purpose id to give you a heads-up when your connection is laggy
  415. # [13:13] <MikeSmith> ah
  416. # [13:13] <asmodai> IIRC it is the RTT to your connected IRC server
  417. # [13:13] <MikeSmith> anyway, irssi rocks many ways
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  419. # [13:14] <MikeSmith> asmodai: ok
  420. # [13:14] <asmodai> I used to use it, went with weechat this year.
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  423. # [13:15] <MikeSmith> asmodai: dunno that one
  424. # [13:15] * MikeSmith googles
  425. # [13:15] <asmodai> I find it easier to use/configure than irssi
  426. # [13:16] <asmodai> plus supports more binding languages if you want to write/use plugins/modules
  427. # [13:16] <MikeSmith> ok
  428. # [13:17] <MikeSmith> hmm I go to type "wee..." into my address bar to start a search and then it gives a "weedsmokersguide.com" suggestion
  429. # [13:17] <asmodai> lol
  430. # [13:17] <MikeSmith> I guess I should probably edit my history a bit
  431. # [13:18] <hsivonen> Stevef: thanks
  432. # [13:19] <MikeSmith> asmodai: among the things that are nice about irssi are its integration with screen
  433. # [13:19] <MikeSmith> limited but still some nice things
  434. # [13:19] <Stevef> hsivonen: no problem I have no intention of asking for useful stuff to be cut
  435. # [13:19] <asmodai> yep, weechat has auto-away when you detach screen, for example
  436. # [13:20] <MikeSmith> like, there's a plugin that automatically marks you as away if you detach from the screen, and then auto un-aways you when you re-attach
  437. # [13:20] <MikeSmith> asmodai: OK
  438. # [13:22] <MikeSmith> Stevef, hsivonen : I would be very happy for hgroup to be dropped as a conforming element, but also agree it should not be dropped from the parser and UA stylesheet
  439. # [13:23] <Stevef> MikeSmith:yup but would like, acc layer mapping to be removed as a) not implemented and b) not good.
  440. # [13:24] <MikeSmith> another thing about hgroup is that it's an additional authoring-error vector we can really live without given how very little benefit it actually provides
  441. # [13:24] <MikeSmith> Stevef: yeah, agreed
  442. # [13:24] <MikeSmith> it really was misguided from the get-go
  443. # [13:25] <MikeSmith> about the authoring-errors issue, see https://twitter.com/Larabooklover/status/276944364792590336
  444. # [13:25] <Stevef> Mikesmith: have noted from looking at how it is used in wild that often it includes content apart from headings or only 1 heading
  445. # [13:25] <MikeSmith> "oddly it doesn't like that I had a link & images in my HGROUP tag. Seems 2b a widely acknowledged issue w/ the validator. "
  446. # [13:25] <MikeSmith> Stevef: ok
  447. # [13:26] <MikeSmith> so I would really like to see it cut out before the illness spreads further
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  449. # [13:27] * hsivonen wonders where people get the idea of using hgroup for anything other than grouping h1—h6
  450. # [13:28] <MikeSmith> I really don't think there are 5 people in the universe who are going to be too upset that if they use a subhead without an hgroup, a document outline is going to make the following content a child of the subhead instead of the head
  451. # [13:28] <Stevef> data dump of hgroup code: http://html5accessibility.com/HTML5data/hgroup.html
  452. # [13:29] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: because the name doesn't really make it obvious
  453. # [13:29] <MikeSmith> and because authors do a lot of silly things
  454. # [13:29] <MikeSmith> and the more unnecessary sureface you give them for doing silly things, the more trouble you're asking for
  455. # [13:30] <MikeSmith> *surface
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  457. # [13:30] <MikeSmith> Stevef: did you calculate how many included non-heading content and/or only 1 heading?
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  459. # [13:31] <Stevef> MikeSmith:no but can if its useful
  460. # [13:31] <MikeSmith> would be useful I think
  461. # [13:32] <Stevef> OK
  462. # [13:33] <Stevef> though havng only 1 heading is not a conformance issue
  463. # [13:33] <Stevef> its just totally redundant
  464. # [13:35] <annevk> aaahahahfd
  465. # [13:35] <annevk> designing attribute change handling is fricking hard
  466. # [13:36] <annevk> HTML just says "Whenever the name attribute is set" which is pretty vague from a DOM perspective
  467. # [13:37] <MikeSmith> Stevef: it's an indication that the author probably misunderstands the purpose of the element
  468. # [13:37] <annevk> but getting all of HTML rewritten...
  469. # [13:38] <annevk> maybe I should do it vaguely, similarly to how it's done for tree mutations
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  472. # [13:40] <MikeSmith> annevk: "maybe I should do it vaguely" doesn't sound like the best phrase to use in spec writing
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  474. # [13:41] <MikeSmith> generally
  475. # [13:42] <annevk> the problem is that HTML doesn't address certain things when talking about attributes
  476. # [13:42] <annevk> e.g. the namespace and local name / name
  477. # [13:45] * abstractj|away is now known as abstractj
  478. # [13:46] <MikeSmith> ok
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  480. # [13:49] <annevk> I'm open to better solutions and pull requests
  481. # [13:49] <annevk> I guess for now I'm going for the incremental improvement
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  484. # [13:56] <MikeSmith> "warning: hg.mozilla.org certificate with fingerprint 10:78:e8:57:2d:95:de:7c:de:90:bd:22:e1:38:17:67:c5:a7:9c:14 not verified (check hostfingerprints or web.cacerts config setting)"
  485. # [13:56] <MikeSmith> I don't remember getting that before
  486. # [13:57] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: ↑
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  491. # [13:59] <MikeSmith> I like the way mozilla mach shows the elapsed timestamp in its console output
  492. # [13:59] <MikeSmith> I wish ninja did that too
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  494. # [14:19] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  495. # [14:19] <annevk> teehee
  496. # [14:19] <annevk> DOMTokenList is now an ordered set rather than a weird kind of string
  497. # [14:19] <annevk> and there was much rejoicing
  498. # [14:19] <Stevef> anybody know how to tell if an element is actually focusable in IE? seems that all elements have tabindex=0 set in DOM
  499. # [14:20] <annevk> you mean tabIndex returns 0?
  500. # [14:20] <annevk> in any event, what's focusable is up to the UA
  501. # [14:22] <MikeSmith> all right fwiw, no more bugmail will go to public-html
  502. # [14:22] <MikeSmith> just now flipped the switch
  503. # [14:23] <MikeSmith> exactly everything that was going there before will now go to public-html-admin
  504. # [14:23] <Stevef> annevk: yeah i suppose thats what i mean, understand that, in general only certain elments are included in default tab order
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  506. # [14:24] <Stevef> MikeSmith: cool
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  513. # [14:27] <annevk> Stevef: I guess that's a bug in IE for not returning -1
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  515. # [14:27] <Stevef> annevk: ok makes it hard to write a script to identify default focusable elements in IE
  516. # [14:28] <annevk> yes
  517. # [14:28] <Stevef> which is what I am trying to do...
  518. # [14:28] <annevk> I hear you, but I don't really see alternatives
  519. # [14:31] <Stevef> thanks anyway
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  522. # [14:39] <gsnedders> hsivonen: "Forename" is fairly common on formal forms, at least.
  523. # [14:40] <SimonSapin> annevk: have you seen https://github.com/SimonSapin/python-webencodings ?
  524. # [14:40] <hsivonen> gsnedders: ok
  525. # [14:40] <annevk> SimonSapin: yeah, did a RT from @WHATWG
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  529. # [14:42] <SimonSapin> annevk: the actual codecs are from the stdlib, so I’m not sure it really helps to show that the spec is implementable
  530. # [14:42] <gsnedders> hsivonen: UK passport form uses "title", "forename", "surname", and "maiden / all previous names".
  531. # [14:42] <annevk> SimonSapin: nope, but it's still cool
  532. # [14:42] <hsivonen> gsnedders: is this an en-GB thing?
  533. # [14:43] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Dunno. It's definitely *formal* en-GB. You don't hear it generally.
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  535. # [14:46] <hsivonen> hmm. all receipts I’m sending to my accountant in today’s batch came to me over the Internet and I printed them out.
  536. # [14:46] <Ms2ger> hsivonen, we're living in the future!
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  539. # [14:48] <gsnedders> Somewhat unsurprisingly, "first name" is the oldest documented term (a1325), then "forename" (1534).
  540. # [14:48] <gsnedders> Interesting that "first name" is becoming more common again.
  541. # [14:49] <MikeSmith> Stevef: about "note supression is no longer a requirement", not sure what you mean. The spec still does require it to be omitted from the outline.
  542. # [14:49] <MikeSmith> ("it" being any subheads in hgroup)
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  545. # [14:53] <MikeSmith> Stevef: ah I guess you mean the acc tree, not the outline
  546. # [14:54] <annevk> Ms2ger: so for getting and setting of attributes by specifications... if we don't want them to directly reuse setAttributeNS/getAttributeNS, I guess we have to define some kind of shurtcut for that
  547. # [14:55] <Stevef> MikeSmith: what i meant was that previoulsy that subjeadings would not be included in table of contents, but now they can be
  548. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> ok
  549. # [14:55] <annevk> Ms2ger: something like: To *set an attribute* for an /element/ consisting of a /local name/, /value/, and optional /namespace/, run these steps
  550. # [14:55] <annevk> Ms2ger: perhaps?
  551. # [14:55] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
  552. # [14:56] <annevk> Ms2ger: and redefine attributes to say they're about local name and value rather than name and value?
  553. # [14:56] <annevk> Ms2ger: (/namespace/ defaulting to null of course)
  554. # [14:58] <annevk> Ms2ger: and then the same for "get an attribute"
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  558. # [15:06] <Ms2ger> annevk, sounds good
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  562. # [15:17] <divya> annevk: congrats on the candidacy
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  567. # [15:20] <Ms2ger> annevk, is there an easy way to test what a FormData object contains?
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  577. # [15:32] <annevk> Ms2ger: have to XHR it at the moment, see URLQuery for a potential future interface upgrade
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  591. # [15:44] <foobler> Anyone know how I can set a CSS property of an element with the !important flag programmatically?
  592. # [15:45] <divya> inline style.
  593. # [15:45] <foobler> divya: ??
  594. # [15:46] <hasather> foobler: or http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Style/css.html#CSS-CSSStyleDeclaration-setProperty
  595. # [15:46] <divya> o hai hasather :)
  596. # [15:46] <hasather> divya: \o
  597. # [15:46] <foobler> haha, didn't think I'd see a w3.org link in here, but thanks.
  598. # [15:46] <divya> plz have more friday beers on my behalf hasather
  599. # [15:46] <foobler> hasather: do you know if it works with IE?
  600. # [15:47] <hasather> divya: today is christmas party, so will do ;)
  601. # [15:47] <divya> OMGGG
  602. # [15:47] <divya> :'(
  603. # [15:47] <hasather> foobler: not sure
  604. # [15:48] <hasather> foobler: since IE9? http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ie/ff975226(v=vs.85).aspx
  605. # [15:49] <foobler> hasather: wait, so how do I use it?
  606. # [15:49] <hasather> foobler: ele.style.setProperty("property", "value", "important")
  607. # [15:50] <foobler> schweet!!!
  608. # [15:50] * foobler <3s hasather
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  615. # [16:04] <zcorpan> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom/#widl-CSSStyleDeclaration-setProperty-void-DOMString-property-DOMString-value-DOMString-priority is more up-to-date
  616. # [16:05] <zcorpan> not sure if cssom has improved or regressed since annevk left it
  617. # [16:05] <divya> your campaigning can be restricted to twitters zcorpan
  618. # [16:06] <divya> THANKS
  619. # [16:06] * divya runs
  620. # [16:06] <annevk> it uses legacy DOM-style now, that's kinda crappy
  621. # [16:06] <zcorpan> divya: NO
  622. # [16:06] <zcorpan> annevk: yeah
  623. # [16:07] <darobin> not even my fault!
  624. # [16:08] <zcorpan> what is used to generate it?
  625. # [16:08] <divya> :))
  626. # [16:08] <darobin> zcorpan: I think Glenn wrote his own tool
  627. # [16:08] <zcorpan> interesting
  628. # [16:08] <darobin> not sure though
  629. # [16:08] <zcorpan> is it public?
  630. # [16:08] <darobin> but it doesn't have the footprints of any tool I know
  631. # [16:09] <darobin> and I know that he was playing with writing a WebIDL processor that took hot comments into account
  632. # [16:09] <annevk> it doesn't really look much improved when given a cursory glance
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  639. # [16:13] <zcorpan> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/file/4d0d121f81f1/cssom/cssom-generate.js
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  642. # [16:14] <darobin> I like this part: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/file/4d0d121f81f1/cssom/cssom-generate.js#l282
  643. # [16:16] <divya> it sez the author is bert bos
  644. # [16:17] <zcorpan> divya: that's just hg web UI being confusing
  645. # [16:17] <divya> o :(
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  648. # [16:19] <darobin> divya: bert would never stoop to writing JS
  649. # [16:19] <darobin> real Berts use C
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  651. # [16:19] <divya> ahah
  652. # [16:20] <darobin> not that this is very far from being C mind you, it clearly is JS written by a C developer
  653. # [16:20] * Joins: thisgeek (~chris@ool-45757782.dyn.optonline.net)
  654. # [16:21] <divya> btw foobler darobin is one of the editors of HTML spec. so this forum has plenty of W3C members including me.
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  658. # [16:26] <darobin> yeah, it's all one big loving family
  659. # [16:26] <divya> :)))))))))))))))))))))))))))
  660. # [16:27] <zcorpan> wow that's a big smile
  661. # [16:27] <darobin> ♥♥♥
  662. # [16:27] <divya> like Dallas the TV show!
  663. # [16:27] * divya hopes she has gotten this pop culture reference right
  664. # [16:28] * darobin has the song stuck in his head now
  665. # [16:29] <Hixie> zcorpan: quirk for http://quirks.spec.whatwg.org/ that it doesn't seem you have yet -- <font face=wingdings> vs font-family:wingdings
  666. # [16:30] <hsivonen> Hixie: did you see my referece to DOMFrameContentLoaded code?
  667. # [16:30] <zcorpan> Hixie: file a bug
  668. # [16:30] <zcorpan> Hixie: (you can select some text to get a link in the bottom left corner)
  669. # [16:31] <Hixie> zcorpan: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20293, apologies for complete lack of details
  670. # [16:31] <Hixie> hsivonen: recently?
  671. # [16:31] <zcorpan> Hixie: thanks
  672. # [16:32] <hsivonen> Hixie: slightly over 24 hours ago
  673. # [16:32] <Hixie> hsivonen: no, sorry. barely been online in the past few days.
  674. # [16:32] <hsivonen> Hixie: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20121206#l-387
  675. # [16:32] <Hixie> reading...
  676. # [16:35] <Hixie> is there an origin check i'm missing in that code?
  677. # [16:35] <hsivonen> Hixie: dunno.
  678. # [16:36] <zcorpan> on a related note, CSSOM is no longer under CC0
  679. # [16:38] <hsivonen> because Glenn edits it?
  680. # [16:39] <zcorpan> the copyright notice at some point changed from CC0 to W3C doc license
  681. # [16:41] <hsivonen> :-(
  682. # [16:42] <zcorpan> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/4f093aa74a83/cssom/cssom-source seems to be a normative change
  683. # [16:43] <zcorpan> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/6ebf32d04cb7/cssom/cssom-source is the copyright change
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  688. # [16:47] <zcorpan> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/cee171486069/cssom/cssom-source specifies "serialize a CSS declaration block"
  689. # [16:49] <annevk> specifying things in terms of developer-exposed method calls is wrong
  690. # [16:49] <annevk> DOM has a little bit of that, trying to get rid of it
  691. # [16:50] <zcorpan> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/f6b40801289d/cssom/cssom-source serializes !important
  692. # [16:51] <zcorpan> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/aac637834c2e/cssom/cssom-source removes the algorithm to "insert a CSS rule"
  693. # [16:54] <zcorpan> not sure what https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/7c881a97c919/cssom/cssom-source does
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  697. # [16:57] <zcorpan> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/0a759792a7bc/cssom/cssom-source changes behavior for U+0000
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  699. # [16:59] <zcorpan> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/e9f4e4a43967/cssom/cssom-source specs some more serialization
  700. # [17:01] <zcorpan> that seems to be about it. haven't checked the impact of the switch to his new spec generator.
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  702. # [17:11] <annevk> suspicious changes
  703. # [17:11] <annevk> but also seems like easy to start from my CC0 copy and improve that
  704. # [17:15] <foobler> divya: oh yeah? interesting..
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  711. # [17:31] <Stevef> 278 HTML5 pages that use <header> and <footer> elements (amongst others) styled to reveal them http://www.html5accessibility.com/HTML5data/header-footer/index-all.html
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  714. # [17:33] <JonathanNeal> neato
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  717. # [17:35] <Stevef> MikeSmith: are there bugzilla products yet for HTML 5.1?
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  727. # [17:41] <MikeSmith> Stevef: not yet
  728. # [17:42] <Stevef> ok
  729. # [17:43] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  730. # [17:44] <JonathanNeal> goodmorning dglazkov
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  745. # [18:02] <annevk> http://infrequently.org/2012/12/reforming-the-w3c-tag/#comment-240289
  746. # [18:02] <annevk> "so that the W3C doesn’t try to design MultiMaps in the guise of URLs" uhuh
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  771. # [18:32] <hober> annevk: oh, the W3C is doing that? :)
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  797. # [19:15] <manu-db> This should get WHATWG quote of the year: "This matters because in today’s web when you go ever so slightly off the path paved by a spec’s use-cases, the drop-off is impossibly steep, and the only way to keep from risking life-threatening abstraction level transitions is to flood the entire canyon with JavaScript and hope you can still swim in the resulting inland sea of complexity."
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  799. # [19:17] <TabAtkins> manu-db: Preach it! (Or get slightlylate to continue to preach it.)
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  801. # [19:18] <TabAtkins> darobin: There aren't plans yet, but we purposely made the grammar loose so that we can accomodate it in the future without breaking in down-level browsers.
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  815. # [19:36] <TabAtkins> annevk: I'm probably going to do a re-run of CSSOM from your last version, since it's *not* advancing the way we were promised.
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  818. # [19:39] <annevk> can't say I'm surprised really
  819. # [19:40] <annevk> I hope you got the bandwidth given all the other items you're working on :)
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  831. # [19:57] <TabAtkins> I don't, right now. I'm hoping to free some up early next year. :/
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  834. # [20:04] <SimonSapin1> Anyone for a XPath puzzle? The CSS selector |section:nth-of-type(2) can be expressed in XPath as //section[count(preceding-sibling:section)=1] … what about *:nth-of-type(2) ?
  835. # [20:05] * SimonSapin1 is now known as SimonSapin
  836. # [20:05] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Don't think you can, actually.
  837. # [20:06] <TabAtkins> Lesson is: CSS and XPath are identical in idea, but execution is often different.
  838. # [20:06] <SimonSapin> I know
  839. # [20:06] <dglazkov> XPath puzzle! What will they think of next? Guillotine trinkets?
  840. # [20:06] <TabAtkins> Or was it a puzzle because you know the answer?
  841. # [20:07] <SimonSapin> I maintain cssselect which does such translation. Simple cases are easy, but it gets crazy when you go into details
  842. # [20:07] <SimonSapin> I don’t know the answer
  843. # [20:10] <SimonSapin> So cssselect and Nokogiri are doomed. Maybe only Liam can save them.
  844. # [20:10] <dglazkov> Liam Neeson is pretty good at saving
  845. # [20:12] <SimonSapin> Liam Quin assured me this kind of thing is possible with XPath, but I don’t remember the details
  846. # [20:12] <SimonSapin> I didn’t doubt him, he was wearing a wizard hat
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  859. # [20:37] <JonathanNeal> dglazkov: http://asylumeclectica.com/grim/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/shot_1304520437749.jpg
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  862. # [20:42] <jwalden> ...I am not going to check logs to see what that follows from
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  910. # [21:15] <TabAtkins> Holy jeezus, real life underwater xenomorph: http://mlkshk.com/p/M1EP
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  916. # [21:23] <annevk> Ms2ger: document.domain is a little outside what I'm working on
  917. # [21:24] <Ms2ger> Boo ;)
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  928. # [21:46] <annevk> Ms2ger: hmm looking at its algorithm I might have to get involved at some point :/
  929. # [21:46] <Ms2ger> I was afraid so
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  947. # [22:29] <dglazkov> I am sorry, I feel like I stepped out of a discussion and missed something. What's HTML5.1?
  948. # [22:30] <dglazkov> and .. do I want to know?
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  954. # [22:33] <TabAtkins> dglazkov: It's the W3C snapshot of HTML.
  955. # [22:34] <jgraham> dglazkov: It's like WHATWG HTML but with more sex and intrigue
  956. # [22:34] <jgraham> Except without the sex
  957. # [22:34] <jgraham> (possibly)
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  959. # [22:39] <hober> there's not much intrigue either
  960. # [22:40] * jamesr notes that hober doesn't deny that there is more sex
  961. # [22:40] <hober> n.b. "either"
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  963. # [22:45] <jgraham> Bah, well I won't bother to try and make your life sound exciting again
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  965. # [22:47] <hober> hahahaha
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  967. # [22:54] <dglazkov> got it. 50 shades of HTML
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  978. # [23:04] <jgraham> dglazkov: I doubt you will see middle aged ladies (or indeed men) furtively reading the HTML5.1 spec on the tube
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  980. # [23:05] <Hixie> man, heycam, every time you add new features to webidl, a few months later i get a rash of bugs asking me to update the spec accordingly
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  984. # [23:13] <dglazkov> TabAtkins: for CSSHostRule, it looks like I need to add the constant here: http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/cssom-constants
  985. # [23:13] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  986. # [23:13] <dglazkov> should I make it 17 or 1001?
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  988. # [23:14] <TabAtkins> 1001 until we officially adopt @host into a spec (which will be soon).
  989. # [23:14] * dglazkov sings arabian nights
  990. # [23:15] <dglazkov> I can't change it :-\
  991. # [23:16] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: what’s @host ?
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  993. # [23:17] <dglazkov> SimonSapin: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/shadow/index.html#host-at-rule
  994. # [23:19] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: In terms of http://dev.w3.org/csswg/selectors4/#scoping it transforms the scope-contained selectors in <style scoped> into scope-filtered.
  995. # [23:19] <astearns> dglazkov: reload the wiki page, check to see if I added the right thing
  996. # [23:19] <SimonSapin> I see, thanks
  997. # [23:20] <dglazkov> astearns: not yet
  998. # [23:20] <dglazkov> :)
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  1000. # [23:20] <astearns> "1001 HOST_RULE proposed for Shadow DOM" ??
  1001. # [23:20] <dglazkov> oooh
  1002. # [23:20] <dglazkov> I thought you just changed permissions
  1003. # [23:20] <dglazkov> :)
  1004. # [23:21] <dglazkov> alrighty!
  1005. # [23:21] <dglazkov> thanks
  1006. # [23:21] <astearns> I don't have that power :)
  1007. # [23:21] <dglazkov> astearns: disappoint :P
  1008. # [23:21] <astearns> I think you have to ask fantasai and/or plinss
  1009. # [23:22] <dglazkov> eh. my work here is done.
  1010. # [23:22] <dglazkov> by you!
  1011. # [23:23] <dglazkov> astearns: thanks again
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  1014. # [23:29] <Hixie> hober: yt?
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  1017. # [23:33] <Hixie> anyone know why hober filed some duplicate bugs pre-marked as blocking the dupe bugs?
  1018. # [23:33] <Hixie> i don't understand what's going on here
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  1020. # [23:35] <jgraham> intrigue!
  1021. # [23:38] <dglazkov> and sex!
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  1026. # [23:51] <karlcow> that woke me up
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  1028. # [23:52] <dglazkov> :D
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  1033. # [23:58] <gavinc> annevk: is anyone else stupid enough to be trying using the URL spec with shims today?
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  1035. # [23:58] <gavinc> annevk: specifically the newly spec'd URLQuery?
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  1037. # Session Close: Sat Dec 08 00:00:00 2012

The end :)