/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-12-18 / end

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# Session Start: Tue Dec 18 00:00:00 2012
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:03] <jonlee> Hixie: pong
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# [00:04] <annevk> Anyone else reading http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/12/13-minutes "who are we writing the architecture document for? I think we're writing it for young guys starting to create web sites"
# [00:04] <annevk> ?
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# [00:11] <Hixie> jonlee: hi
# [00:11] <jonlee> Hixie: hello
# [00:11] <Hixie> jonlee: i was told you are the person to talk to about context menus in html at apple
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# [00:11] <Hixie> jonlee: was wondering if you had any input on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2012Nov/0369.html
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# [00:12] <Hixie> smaug____: btw, your continued input on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2012Dec/0046.html would be most welcome
# [00:12] <jonlee> Hixie: looking
# [00:12] <Hixie> jonlee: thanks
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# [00:13] <smaug____> Hixie: will do later this night
# [00:13] <Hixie> smaug____: awesome
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# [00:27] <TabAtkins> Is there a naming convention for enums in DOM?
# [00:27] <Hixie> lowercase
# [00:27] <Hixie> english
# [00:27] <Hixie> one word, ideally
# [00:27] <TabAtkins> I mean the identifier. ^_^
# [00:28] <TabAtkins> The enum's type, used in webidl.
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# [00:28] <Hixie> oh
# [00:28] <Hixie> same as interfaces
# [00:28] <TabAtkins> Okay.
# [00:29] <TabAtkins> Was just making sure we didn't do something like pre/suffix them with "Enum" or something.
# [00:29] <Hixie> not currently
# [00:29] <Hixie> still early days though, if you want to try to start a convention :-)
# [00:30] <jwalden> prefixes? do not want
# [00:30] <TabAtkins> I'd prefer not doing so. Was just checking.
# [00:30] * TabAtkins is giving feedback on the Ambient Light API.
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# [00:56] <Hixie> lol
# [00:56] <Hixie> w3c just violated the process again
# [00:57] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/2012/12/html5-cr http://goo.gl/mQ56m
# [00:59] <TabAtkins> Wait, what? It went to CR?
# [01:01] <zewt> "html 5.1"? i have to say, the w3c is a fucking absurd joke
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# [01:27] <jamesr_> well html 5.1 is technically a bigger number than html 5, so it must be better
# [01:27] <jamesr_> by about 2%
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# [01:34] <Hixie> you have to wonder why the w3c expect anyone to respect their process when they themselves violate it so brazenly
# [01:35] <Hixie> (and with such a high-profile spec, too)
# [01:37] <zewt> i don't know anything about the contracts, but wouldn't violating process put the patent policy at risk? (and the patent policy is the only reason anyone pretends to care abuot the w3c anymore)
# [01:37] <zewt> (or even about)
# [01:37] <TabAtkins> I keep getting told that the patent policy relies, at least somewhat, on the process being followed, so maybe?
# [01:38] <Hixie> i doubt it, given how widely they violate it
# [01:38] <smaug____> rafaelw__: ping
# [01:38] <smaug____> or anyone from webkit land
# [01:39] <smaug____> https://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/Source/WebCore/dom/MutationCallback.idl#L34
# [01:39] <smaug____> does that mean { handleEvent() {} } is supported as callback
# [01:39] <smaug____> ( bool? why does it return bool )
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# [01:50] <smaug____> the context is https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15695
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# [02:20] <Yuhong> On HTML5 CR, already posted this: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3322379&cid=42320593
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# [04:03] <Hixie> anyone got a link to the public-html post where the wg chairs said that the web had already proved interoperability with things like the navigate algorithm so it didn't need testing?
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# [04:12] <zewt> are you putting together a collection of best hits?
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# [06:22] <cabanier> if a message to whatwg bounces because it is too larger, should I resent it or will it go through later?
# [06:22] <cabanier> "Your mail to 'whatwg' with the subject
# [06:22] <cabanier> Re: [whatwg] Canvas-related feedback
# [06:22] <cabanier> Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.
# [06:22] <cabanier> The reason it is being held:
# [06:22] <cabanier> Message body is too big: 62553 bytes with a limit of 40 KB"
# [06:23] <cabanier> I guess the mail thread is too large :-)
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# [06:28] <heycam> or you should be trimming your quotes!
# [06:28] <heycam> :)
# [06:30] <cabanier> I usually just reply in-line
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# [06:30] <cabanier> It was a monster email that hixie sent earlier. It's also not on the archive
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# [06:46] <cabanier> I guess I'll wait until tomorrow...
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# [08:02] <MikeSmith> Hixie: about https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20319
# [08:02] <MikeSmith> the AAA parsing bug
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# [08:03] <MikeSmith> what should the expected DOM for <b><i><a><s><tt><div></b>first</b></div></tt></s></a>second</i> be?
# [08:03] <MikeSmith> or is that actually you're asking in the related whatwg thread?
# [08:04] <MikeSmith> when you asked if anybody had a preference for how it should be fixed
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# [08:07] <Hixie> not sure, but for sure the text node that says "first" should come before the text node that says "second"
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# [08:07] <Hixie> cabanier: trim your quotes
# [08:07] <Hixie> cabanier: unless you literally replied to everything in the e-mail, but that seems unlikely :-)
# [08:08] <cabanier> Hixie: OK. I will resend it tomorrow
# [08:08] <cabanier> Hixie: no, I didn't reply to everything :-D
# [08:17] <MikeSmith> Hixie: so if for now I hack a current parser to remove the limit on the inner loop and then check to see what DOM that produces, that's probably what we should end up with, right?
# [08:18] <MikeSmith> I mean regardless of the specific way you end up fixing it in the spec
# [08:18] <MikeSmith> I'm writing a test case and just need to know what expected results to put in the test case
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# [09:01] <zcorpan> Hixie: r7589: + the top-left corner of this rectangle will be to the right and/or above the (<var
# [09:02] <zcorpan> Hixie: you sure "right and/or above" is correct?
# [09:02] <Ms2ger> No, "and/or" is always wrong :)
# [09:03] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: why?
# [09:03] <Ms2ger> It just means "or"
# [09:04] <zcorpan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And/or
# [09:07] <zcorpan> ...though i can see that it should be avoided in specs for similar reasons it should be avoided in Wikipedia
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# [09:17] <MikeSmith> so, about the adoption-agency spec bug that causes text nodes to be misordered, the limit on the inner loop is the part that states, "If inner loop counter is greater than or equal to three, then go to the next step in the overall algorithm.", right?
# [09:18] <MikeSmith> in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tree-construction.html#adoptionAgency
# [09:23] <MikeSmith> and the part that corresponds to in the Gecko parser code is http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/file/2e70b718903a/parser/html/nsHtml5TreeBuilder.cpp#l3405
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# [10:15] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/mid/73AC3CEAEF48B3479D4671AE58094B03011B28C6@usiowace3mx06.PEROOT.COM - www-dom is not the right mailing list for this type of question, but what is the right mailing list?
# [10:15] <zcorpan> help@whatwg.org?
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# [10:19] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: wasn't clear to me what source she was citing as far as the 'listed as W3C Standard = "No"' part
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# [10:19] <MikeSmith> I assumed MDN
# [10:20] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: w3schools
# [10:20] <MikeSmith> what treebuilder does html5lib use by default?
# [10:20] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: ah
# [10:20] <jgraham> MikeSmith: A built in one that is crappy
# [10:21] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: so help@whatwg.org would definitely be a good place, I think
# [10:22] <MikeSmith> jgraham: so to put it another way, what file in html5lib/treebuilders do I need to hack if I want to make a treebuilder change?
# [10:22] <MikeSmith> or maybe I should feed it whatever switch to just tell it to use a better one
# [10:22] <jgraham> We obviosuly need help-I-got-scammed-by-w3schools@w3.org
# [10:22] <MikeSmith> then hack on the code for that other one
# [10:23] <jgraham> MikeSmith: What are you trying to achieve?
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# [10:23] <MikeSmith> I want to change the code to not have the "If inner loop counter is greater than or equal to three, then go to the next step in the overall algorithm."
# [10:24] <MikeSmith> to ignore that part of the spec
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# [10:24] <MikeSmith> so that there's no limit
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# [10:24] <MikeSmith> ah simpleTree
# [10:25] <zcorpan> change the limit to +Inf
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# [10:26] <darobin> MikeSmith: I don't have the context for your problem, but re picking a different treebuilder, you can html5lib.html5parser.HTMLParser(tree = html5lib.treebuilders.getTreeBuilder('lxml'))
# [10:26] <jgraham> MikeSmith: That's not specific to a treebuilder
# [10:26] <jgraham> That's part of the general implementation
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# [10:27] <MikeSmith> darobin: ok
# [10:27] <MikeSmith> jgraham: yeah, I'm seeing that now
# [10:27] <MikeSmith> will explore furthere
# [10:28] <zcorpan> http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/source/browse/python/html5lib/treebuilders/_base.py#110 ?
# [10:28] <jgraham> http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/source/browse/python/html5lib/html5parser.py#1499
# [10:29] <MikeSmith> didn't look there but I think
# [10:29] <MikeSmith> jgraham: yeah there
# [10:29] <jgraham> zcorpan's line implement's Noah's Ark iirc
# [10:30] <zcorpan> ah
# [10:30] <MikeSmith> ok that did the trick
# [10:31] <MikeSmith> so for the record, without the depth limit, <b><i><a><s><tt><div></b>first</b></div></tt></s></a>second</i> just becomes <b><i><a><s><tt></tt></s></a></i></b><i><a><s><tt><div><b></b>first</div></tt></s></a>second</i>
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# [10:36] <Stevef_> darobin: any thoughts on HTML5 CR publication violating W3C process? seen a few comments on it
# [10:38] <Ms2ger> "Eh, process"
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# [10:47] <darobin> Stevef_: is *shrug* a thought?
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# [10:48] <Stevef_> darobin: sure
# [10:49] <darobin> Stevef_: I've never been a process literalist, when chair I always told my groups that the only parts that truly matter are those that enforce RF
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# [10:50] <MikeSmith> .me finds equivalent WebKit parser bits in https://github.com/WebKit/webkit/blob/master/Source/WebCore/html/parser/HTMLTreeBuilder.cpp#L1519 and https://github.com/WebKit/webkit/blob/master/Source/WebCore/html/parser/HTMLTreeBuilder.cpp#L1562
# [10:50] <nimbu> guize does this have precedence in standards? http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/136744
# [10:50] <nimbu> MikeSmith: ^
# [10:50] <Stevef_> darobin: onlt wondered as was unclear whether the concerns are meaningful or process trolling
# [10:51] <darobin> Stevef_: as far as I'm concerned if it doesn't affect RF it's not meaningful
# [10:51] <MikeSmith> nimbu: I read the words but I don't understand what that change is doing. Is it for bad or for good?
# [10:51] <darobin> it might not be trolling, but it's not a very useful position either
# [10:51] <nimbu> MikeSmith: it sez pseudo elements are now in DOM
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# [10:52] <nimbu> it makes me worry its bad.
# [10:52] <nimbu> although I have no rational reason for my stress
# [10:52] <MikeSmith> if it's bad for interop then I think it's bad
# [10:52] <Stevef_> darobin: back to real work then... I have some further thoughts on how to resolve alt text impasse will share with the class when I get a chance
# [10:53] <nimbu> MikeSmith: i dont think any other browser does this.
# [10:53] <darobin> Stevef_: exactly! some people complain that CR has bugs, others complain that it's not shipping fast enough — me, I just want to work on stuff
# [10:53] <nimbu> beverloo: beverloo-: plz explain http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/136744
# [10:53] <nimbu> (on email if I am not online beverloo beverloo-
# [10:53] <darobin> Stevef_: please share as soon as you have a chance!
# [10:54] <Stevef_> btw: thanks for the thumbs up for <main> in your post, appreciated
# [10:54] <MikeSmith> nimbu: it's not clear to me that it gets exposed to Web content or whether it's just an internal implementation design choice. But on the face of it does seem like it would be exposed
# [10:54] <darobin> Stevef_: hey, no need to thank me, it just happens to be what I think
# [10:54] <nimbu> MikeSmith: oic. i hope not.
# [10:54] <darobin> you can thank Bruce for reminding me I'd actually written about the bar for inclusion of semantic elements before :)
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# [10:55] <Steve^> Hi, I'm a little confused by the phrasing of "Except where otherwise specified, the alt attribute must be specified and its value must not be empty"
# [10:55] <darobin> Steve^: please meet Stevef_
# [10:55] <darobin> (and Moo is very cool btw)
# [10:55] <Steve^> It is valid for an alt attribute to be empty? The examples suggest so, but the wording of that sentence immediately makes me feel not
# [10:55] <Moo^_^> darobin: what?
# [10:55] <Stevef_> darobin: i realise that but as we say in in the HTML WG "silence = assent, but positive responses encouraged" or some such :-)
# [10:55] <Moo^_^> thank you
# [10:56] <darobin> Stevef_: hehehe
# [10:56] <darobin> Moo^_^: lol, sorry, I was referring to "~stephen@office.moo.com" <-- this Moo
# [10:56] <jgraham> nimbu: Without knowing anything about how WebKit works I would bet money that these are "hidden" DOM nodes, so that DOM methods skip over them
# [10:56] <darobin> but hey, I'm pretty damn sure you're very cool too
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# [10:57] <Stevef_> Steve^: it is valid for it to be empty alt="" under certain circumstances this explains when in detail: http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/#secm3
# [10:58] <Steve^> Stevef_, but it must always be specified?
# [10:58] <jgraham> nimbu: Yes, look at the diff in Node.cpp
# [10:59] <nimbu> jgraham: ah k. thanks.
# [10:59] <nimbu> jgraham: so this is just an implementation thing.
# [10:59] <Stevef_> Steve^: depends on which spec you prefer W3C HTML5 says it must always be specified unless the image is a child of a figure element with a non empty figcaption, WHATWG HTML says otherwise
# [11:01] <MikeSmith> ok for the AAA bug hacking the WebKit parser to ignore the limit results as expected in the same DOM as I got from hacking html5lib. Still trying to figure out where in the Gecko parser code to touch
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# [11:01] <jgraham> nimbu: I am pretty sure it is. But eseidel hangs out here sometimes I think
# [11:02] <Stevef_> Steve^: so you can choose you brand, its a lifestyle choice
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# [11:04] <nimbu> jgraham: k thank you!
# [11:05] <MikeSmith> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/file/2e70b718903a/parser/html/nsHtml5TreeBuilder.cpp#l3284
# [11:06] <MikeSmith> that file seems to have an aversion to comments
# [11:06] <Ms2ger> Might be that the code translator removes comments?
# [11:07] <MikeSmith> nimbu: also esprehn is around on #webkit during west-cooast hours
# [11:07] <MikeSmith> or some hours
# [11:07] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: yeah I had the same thought. Looking at the Java sources now
# [11:08] <Ms2ger> Not much better
# [11:08] <Stevef_> thanks go to hixie for changing Bruce lawsons mind about <main> http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2012/why-changed-mind-about-main-element/ ;-)
# [11:12] <Steve^> Stevef_, I imagine the solution for the former is to use CSS for decorational images instead?
# [11:13] <Stevef_> Steve^: thats one solution yes
# [11:13] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: yeah, just looked at http://hg.mozilla.org/projects/htmlparser/file/cdb5527b1855/src/nu/validator/htmlparser/impl/TreeBuilder.java#l4373
# [11:13] <Steve^> Stevef_, I think in the 10 minutes I was away from my desk I forgot what question I asked.. is the distinction between the two specs the set/not set of the alt attribute, or the empty/filled of the attribute?
# [11:14] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: Henri's not super fond of comments
# [11:16] <Ms2ger> So it appears
# [11:16] <Ms2ger> darobin, so, any ideas on how to shout down Kris? ;)
# [11:16] <jgraham> "la la la, I can't hear you"?
# [11:17] <MikeSmith> anyway, after hacking in the right place, Gecko parser as expected also producing same result for that unlimited-depth AAA case
# [11:17] <darobin> Ms2ger: well, if we're all agreed on what we want, maybe we can avoid shouting :)
# [11:17] <Stevef_> Steve^: one of the differences between the 2 specs is that WHATWG spec makes it conforming to use the title attribute when no alt or empty alt is present so you can do this <img title="poot">, you can also do this <img alt="" title="poot">
# [11:18] <darobin> the chair's role is to declare consensus; if everyone but the chair agrees on something then that's the consensus the chair agrees to
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# [11:18] <darobin> if that doesn't work, well... we have a problem
# [11:20] <jgraham> Maybe we can threaten to chop up the chair for firewood
# [11:21] <MikeSmith> briar patch
# [11:24] <Workshiva> Is it legit to have <time datetime="something real"></time> to produce metadata without rendering anything?
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# [11:26] <MikeSmith> Workshiva: yeah
# [11:26] <MikeSmith> it's valid at least
# [11:26] <Workshiva> It feels icky
# [11:27] <MikeSmith> well I think the whole <time> element is icky and I wish it didn't exist
# [11:28] <MikeSmith> that example is minor ickiness compared to the grand baroque ickiness that element overall achieves
# [11:31] <Workshiva> I don't see any grand baroque ickiness with the element in general, but maybe it requires prolonged exposure
# [11:32] <MikeSmith> heh
# [11:32] <MikeSmith> yeah that could be it
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# [11:46] <darobin> that works for pretty much any element, though
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# [11:54] <annevk_> MikeSmith: they wouldn't expose it in the DOM
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# [11:54] <annevk> MikeSmith: it can be more convenient to implement it that way, that's all
# [11:56] <annevk> darobin: "work on stuff" is kinda vague, but I assume that means copy & paste? ;)
# [11:56] <MikeSmith> annevk: you mean the WebKit change that Divya mentioned?
# [11:57] <annevk> MikeSmith: yeah
# [11:57] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
# [11:57] <MikeSmith> ok
# [11:57] <darobin> annevk: are you kidding? that's way too much work
# [11:57] <annevk> you just create some special node that normal traversal does not go through
# [11:57] <darobin> I write tools that do that automatically
# [11:58] <MikeSmith> annevk: I see
# [11:58] <annevk> I assume that's the way they've done it, haven't actually looked at the patch
# [11:59] <MikeSmith> makes sense
# [12:06] <Ms2ger> darobin, congratulations on your meaningless milestone, btw
# [12:06] <darobin> Ms2ger: I live to please you
# [12:06] <Ms2ger> Oh, in that case...
# [12:06] <Ms2ger> Let's keep tests in hg
# [12:07] <darobin> sadly, you got your quota this year
# [12:07] <Ms2ger> Dammit
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# [12:08] <annevk> hard to stop the git train, way more likely to get crushed
# [12:12] <Ms2ger> Mm, a chaotic strange Magi attractor around the North Pole
# [12:12] <darobin> well, if hg is an option we could also just share an NTFS mount somewhere
# [12:13] * Ms2ger pats darobin on the back
# [12:13] <Ms2ger> Oh, I was holding a dagger? Sorry about that
# [12:13] <darobin> it tickles
# [12:14] <Ms2ger> You must be used to getting stabbed in the back by git
# [12:15] <jgraham> Now you have lost me
# [12:15] <jgraham> Are you representing git in this parable?
# [12:15] <Ms2ger> Git, like myself, is quite violent to its users, is the point
# [12:17] <jgraham> You have users?
# [12:17] <MikeSmith> and also git is really oblique and hard to understand when it speaks metaphorically, like Ms2ger
# [12:17] <annevk> just download GitHub.app and live in ignorance :)
# [12:18] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, :)
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# [12:19] <darobin> I think I need to make "it’s in the gnostic gospels somewhere" part of my top go-to sentences
# [12:20] <Ms2ger> darobin++
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# [12:38] <rizlah> Why isn't the HTML5 standard released in pdf ?
# [12:39] <jgraham> Because we don't have a sufficiently finely developed sense of irony.
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# [12:41] <zcorpan> it was at some point but it was disabled because it took too much resources of the server to generate, or some such
# [12:42] <zcorpan> i recall someone being interested in taking over that part, but dunno if anything came of it
# [12:42] <jgraham> That was never true of the W3C copy though, was it?
# [12:43] <rizlah> But the final has been released, so I guess you only have to generate it once now.
# [12:44] <jgraham> No, that is a misconception from several points of view
# [12:44] <jgraham> What the W3C has released is a CR
# [12:44] <jgraham> Which will continue to get bugfixes over the coming years
# [12:45] <jgraham> What the world uses to develop web browsers is a living standard, which gets (mostly) the same bugfixes plus extra bug fixes, plus new features on a daily basis
# [12:45] <rizlah> I see
# [12:46] <jgraham> The CR copy is almost the worst document to look at
# [12:46] <rizlah> So I should look at the TR?
# [12:46] <Ms2ger> No
# [12:46] <Ms2ger> The LS
# [12:46] <jgraham> You should look at http://html.spec.whatwg.org
# [12:47] <jgraham> Oh
# [12:47] <jgraham> Unless you are a lawyer
# [12:47] <jgraham> In which case please feel free to look at the CR
# [12:47] <rizlah> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/
# [12:48] <SimonSapin> I’m getting a 404 on http://html.spec.whatwg.org/images/logo
# [12:48] <SimonSapin> used on http://html.spec.whatwg.org/
# [12:48] <jgraham> SimonSapin: Me too
# [12:48] <jgraham> I wonder if it moved to resources.whatwg.org or whatever
# [12:49] <Ms2ger> Mm
# [12:49] <Ms2ger> The HTML spec expects to load from http://www.whatwg.org/
# [12:49] <Ms2ger> And http://www.whatwg.org/images/logo is fine
# [12:50] <darobin> rizlah: that said, if you insist on getting a PDF version, you can normally append ",pdf" to any URL in W3C-space and get the PDF version
# [12:50] <darobin> I say normally because right now it seems broken
# [12:50] <darobin> I'm also not sure how long it would take to process the single page spec, that would be a nice test of Prince
# [12:51] * jgraham does find it strange that it is all the same people that object to the W3C process as heavyweight that object when it isn't precisely followed
# [12:52] <jgraham> Although of course presenting cases of the Process not being followed as evidence that the Process needs to change is fine
# [12:55] <Ms2ger> It also seems to be the people who block changes to the Process who are best at ignoring it
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# [12:57] <annevk> html.spec is not really ready yet
# [12:57] <annevk> use whatwg.org/html
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# [12:58] <Ms2ger> Or fix it, I guess
# [12:58] <darobin> jgraham: I think that was the basis for http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/34823664715/it-seems-that-the-people-who-most-enjoy
# [12:59] <annevk> jgraham: I think the complaint is that the Process is artificially enforced
# [12:59] <annevk> jgraham: It's followed whenever it suits the gatekeepers and ignored whenever it doesn't
# [12:59] <annevk> jgraham: And that's frustrating
# [12:59] <Ms2ger> And perhaps that things that aren't actually in the process are enforced as if they were
# [12:59] <jgraham> annevk: I don't understand. What does it mean for something to be "artificially" enforced?
# [12:59] <annevk> jgraham: maybe I'm using the wrong English word
# [13:00] <Ms2ger> jgraham, inconsistently?
# [13:00] <jgraham> That would make more sense
# [13:00] <jgraham> Anyway, I don't exactly love the Process
# [13:00] <darobin> well, there's a problem with complaining about "inconsistently"
# [13:00] <darobin> I don't either
# [13:00] <annevk> One of the meanings of artificial is "Not genuine"
# [13:01] <annevk> which is kinda what I meant, but maybe it cannot be used in that way
# [13:01] <darobin> you don't want a process that's enforced slavishly anymore than you want to replace judges by robots
# [13:01] <darobin> as chair, I've only ever used process when a) RF was involved, or b) there was a serious problem
# [13:02] <darobin> (almost no b)
# [13:02] <jgraham> But I don't think that kicking up a fuss every time that something happens that would be OK per some ideal process but not OK per the letter of the current Process is a good way to convince people that the Process is broken
# [13:02] <darobin> yeah, it won't convince anyone
# [13:02] <jgraham> It does seem like a good way to get a reputation for being whiny
# [13:02] <darobin> the process could use reform, but a literalist reading won't convince anyone
# [13:02] <annevk> I don't really think anyone is kicking up a fuss
# [13:02] <annevk> At least I haven't seen any
# [13:02] <Ms2ger> Well, an ideal process wouldn't have CR at an arbitrary point
# [13:02] <annevk> Just a couple of irony remarks on IRC
# [13:03] <jgraham> TabAtkins was bitching on twitter, for example
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# [13:03] <Ms2ger> Would your ideal process involve labeling something as "final" with a hundred open bugs?
# [13:04] <jgraham> My ideal process wouldn't label things final
# [13:04] <jgraham> So, uh, mu?
# [13:04] <annevk> jgraham: given that Tab is mostly with CSS and CSS indeed follows the Process to the letter, it seems he's entirely justified to me
# [13:04] <annevk> CSS WG loves Process
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# [13:05] <jgraham> Well it is true that's a deficiency of the CSS WG
# [13:05] * Ms2ger will not comment on the implementability of CSS2.1
# [13:05] <jgraham> But I think TabAtkins is not the most process-hungry member of that group
# [13:05] <SimonSapin> Ms2ger: why not?
# [13:06] <annevk> SimonSapin: it's a running gag
# [13:06] <SimonSapin> it was painful, but I did implement most of it
# [13:07] <Ms2ger> Would you say the spec is sufficient to implement something that somewhat accurately renders the web?
# [13:07] <SimonSapin> I guess that would require a quirks mode, which I don’t really care about
# [13:08] <annevk> or like, table rendering rules
# [13:08] <SimonSapin> (and which is not specified at all)
# [13:08] <Ms2ger> Quirks mode is well specified
# [13:08] <SimonSapin> oh yeah, tables. These are missing
# [13:08] <SimonSapin> Ms2ger: where?
# [13:08] <jgraham> SimonSapin: (the short answer seems to be "no" then ;)
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# [13:08] <Ms2ger> http://quirks.spec.whatwg.org/ has some
# [13:08] * abstractj|away is now known as abstractj
# [13:09] <SimonSapin> including for the parts on layout or anything CSS ?
# [13:09] <Ms2ger> DOM, HTML, CSS3-Syntax all define their own quirks
# [13:10] <darobin> we should call all this stuff "quirks" rather than "standards"
# [13:10] <darobin> would make a lot of the world more meaningful
# [13:10] <Ms2ger> DOM - Living Quirk
# [13:10] <SimonSapin> thanks Ms2ger, I didn’t know about http://quirks.spec.whatwg.org
# [13:10] <Ms2ger> Np :)
# [13:10] <darobin> International Quirks Organisation
# [13:10] <darobin> "Yeah you can do that, but it's not quirky"
# [13:11] <annevk> The IQ Organization?
# [13:11] <Ms2ger> Your reasoning is based on aesthetics?
# [13:11] <annevk> oh the puns
# [13:11] <darobin> annevk: fit inrony
# [13:11] <darobin> "that's a very interesting idea, we should quirk it"
# [13:11] <darobin> Ms2ger: reasoning?
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# [13:18] <Ms2ger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2010Dec/0141.html
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# [13:20] <darobin> heh
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# [13:32] <annevk> So a dictionary has an enum. The dictionary is used in a constructor. I don't specify the enum member of the dictionary. What value does it have?
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# [13:34] <darobin> annevk: I'm assuming no default value has been specified?
# [13:34] <annevk> right
# [13:35] <darobin> null I would assume
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# [13:36] <annevk> enum cannot be null
# [13:37] <annevk> but the issue here was indeed that the spec didn't define the default value for the event interface
# [13:37] <annevk> nobody really knows what they're doing it seems
# [13:38] <darobin> but dictionary values can always be null
# [13:38] <darobin> (IIRC)
# [13:38] <darobin> they're always optional, unless you provide a default
# [13:38] <darobin> that said, maybe it would be undefined
# [13:39] <darobin> WebIDL doesn't have an ES binding section on dictionaries :)
# [13:39] <annevk> no, I think they'd just be missing, not null explicitly
# [13:39] <darobin> yeah
# [13:39] <darobin> but I can't see anywhere in WebIDL that actually says that
# [13:40] <Ms2ger> Yeah, missing
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# [13:41] <Ms2ger> "Let present be false if Type(V) is Undefined or Null, or the result of calling the [[HasProperty]] internal method on V with property name key otherwise."
# [13:42] <Ms2ger> And
# [13:42] <Ms2ger> "Let dict be an empty dictionary value of type D; every dictionary member is initially considered to be not present."
# [13:42] <Ms2ger> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#es-dictionary
# [13:43] <darobin> mmmmm
# [13:43] * darobin *facepalm*
# [13:44] <darobin> Cmd-G shows I was grepping for ditcionary in there...
# [13:44] <annevk> specs are written in English darobin
# [13:45] <darobin> yeah, I resent that
# [13:46] <darobin> we should just make one big piece of JS implementing everything
# [13:46] <Ms2ger> Should be written as a list of git commands
# [13:46] <darobin> and then people could port that to their own ancient languages like C++ or Latin
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# [14:07] <annevk> ah man, someone reopened that attribute order bug
# [14:08] <annevk> hmm https://github.com/lachlanhunt/dom/branches seems kinda dead again
# [14:09] <annevk> what happened Lachy?
# [14:10] <Lachy> annevk, what happened with what?
# [14:11] <Lachy> it's not dead. I just haven't had any commits there in the last 2 weeks as I've been doing other things.
# [14:16] <Lachy> annevk, right now, my current plan is to back port all the changes I made to selectors API in the DOM spec, back into the current selectors api 2 draft, and then make necessary changes based on Mozilla's recent feedback, so that at least it's documented somewhere.
# [14:17] <Lachy> Then, when you've made your planned changes we talked about before we merge selectors api into dom, it'll be easier to do.
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# [15:02] <annevk> those changes have been made a while back
# [15:12] <zcorpan> boblet: "postMessage for server communication" ? http://www.netmagazine.com/features/top-20-html5-sites-2012
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# [15:14] <annevk> HTML helps polishing? Weird stuff
# [15:14] <annevk> Repeat after me: HTML5 HTML5 HTML5
# [15:14] <annevk> Feel better?
# [15:15] <zewt> but it's html5.1 now!!!
# [15:15] <annevk> what can I say? It worked for me
# [15:18] <zcorpan> cue all html book authors giving out new editions with s/HTML5/HTML5.1/ in the next few weeks
# [15:18] <annevk> matjas: do you know if the Punycode stuff you wrote is used in the wild? I wonder (again, I know) whether to add API surface for it
# [15:19] <matjas> annevk: node uses it internally for anything that involves URLs
# [15:20] <matjas> annevk: and URI.js and some other open-source projects depend on it
# [15:20] <annevk> matjas: yeah that makes sense, going forward the URL parser should handle that for them
# [15:20] <matjas> annevk: but having a native API for the raw Punycode stuff would be immensely useful
# [15:21] <zewt> i wonder who it is that's responsible for the "uri" nonsense in the first place, eg. the idea that we need a new name for what is in reality something no real people make a distinction about
# [15:21] <annevk> Useful for what though?
# [15:22] <smaug____> annevk: any comments to https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15695?
# [15:22] <annevk> zewt: Oh, in the beginning we had URLs expanded, with L meaning Locators, then came the idea we could use them as identifiers, and people thought that was such a breakthrough idea it warranted a new name...
# [15:22] <smaug____> or perhaps I'll just change Gecko's behavior to follow the current spec
# [15:23] <zcorpan> zewt: didn't mattur or someone find an email where it was first (?) suggested to rename "url" because there were no versions, or some such?
# [15:23] <Ms2ger> darobin, ping
# [15:23] <annevk> smaug____: Web IDL requires specs to not use interface for callbacks with a single method (unless there's a backcompat reason)
# [15:23] <darobin> Ms2ger: on phone, bbiab
# [15:23] <annevk> smaug____: so I'm inclined to leave it as WONTFIX
# [15:24] <smaug____> but in WebIDL ;) but ok
# [15:24] <smaug____> s/but/bug/
# [15:24] <annevk> s/bug/bug in smaug____'s mind/
# [15:24] <annevk> ;)
# [15:25] <zewt> oh god not the objects-as-callbacks thing again :P
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# [15:48] <annevk> oops
# [15:48] <annevk> forgot to reply to some ancient Fullscreen feedback
# [15:48] <annevk> my apologies!
# [15:49] <annevk> btw, does Opera do fullscreen?
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# [15:53] <darobin> Ms2ger: back, sorry
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# [15:53] <Ms2ger> darobin, so, your idlharness update
# [15:54] <Ms2ger> Does it handle callbacks?
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# [15:55] <darobin> Ms2ger: the only thing I've done so far is make it run on the new parser
# [15:56] <darobin> so the parser handles them, but it won't generate any tests
# [15:56] <darobin> beyond what's already in
# [15:56] <darobin> adding new test generation is the next step
# [15:56] <Ms2ger> Oh, actually
# [15:57] <Ms2ger> Looks like the exception is in idlharness itself
# [15:57] <darobin> I want to make the Geolocation API's IDL produce useful tests (as something concrete to drive progress), and that uses callbacks
# [15:57] <darobin> Ms2ger: also, dunno what code you're using but mine's squirrelled away into a branch for now
# [15:57] <darobin> as I haven't tried it out anywhere near enough for it to be ready for prime time
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# [15:58] <darobin> I just plugged it in and fixed what was needed to get trivial examples to run
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# [16:07] <annevk> marcosc: maybe this helps: http://annevankesteren.nl/2012/12/cors-101
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# [16:46] <zcorpan> annevk: opera supports fullscreen, yes. but not the latest spec
# [16:48] <zcorpan> http://www.opera.com/docs/specs/presto2.12/apis/#fullscreen
# [16:48] * zcorpan notes that no TR snapshot was necessary to link to a dated spec
# [16:50] <zcorpan> "Implemented in core-integration-points 311 through 319" http://www.opera.com/docs/specs/presto2.11/
# [16:50] <Ms2ger> All welcome to vote in favour of calling the master branch "master" for the HTML testsuite in #HTMLT over on irc.w3.org
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# [17:00] <zcorpan> i thought it was decided to be "unicorn"?
# [17:07] * Ms2ger pokes jgraham
# [17:07] <odinho> darobin: trying to send to robineko.com --> Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 554 5.7.1 <odinho@opera.com>: Sender address rejected: Access denied
# [17:08] <marcosc> annevk: thanks, will pass that on. They've not been able to articulate what the issues are
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# [17:10] <odinho> annevk: Oh yeah, that stupid picture. I'll just open it up in Inkscape and change the font to Arial, almost everyone has that one.
# [17:10] <Ms2ger> marcosc, not joining? :)
# [17:10] <odinho> Too hard to deal with all the inline styles in the svg. :]
# [17:10] <marcosc> oh, what!
# [17:11] * marcosc catches up
# [17:11] <Ms2ger> HTML testsuite organization!
# [17:11] <Ms2ger> And branch name bikeshedding!
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# [17:12] <darobin> odinho: robineko? I shut that address down 6 months ago :)
# [17:12] <marcosc> Ms2ger: I love a good bikeshed! Where you guys talking about this?
# [17:12] <darobin> use berjon.com or w3.org please!
# [17:12] <Ms2ger> marcosc, irc.w3.org #HTMLT
# [17:12] <odinho> darobin: Well, I didn't get the memo :P Or my Opera M2 didn't at least :]
# [17:13] <darobin> I didn't even know that you'd ever sent me mail to that address :)
# [17:14] <annevk> better not mint too many email addresses
# [17:15] <darobin> yeah, a long time ago I thought I might need a separate address for consulting, but people just kept writing to the personal address anyway
# [17:16] <annevk> I filter mailing lists and that leaves hardly any email
# [17:21] <annevk> well well, uri@w3.org and public-iri@w3.org died out
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# [17:35] <annevk> dglazkov: in the email you wrote, I guess some of the links are off?
# [17:35] <annevk> dglazkov: it seems a few times you refer to the earlier algorithm in prose, but the link points to the later one...
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# [17:36] <annevk> dglazkov: are mouse events the only problematic events here? what about touch?
# [17:36] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
# [17:38] <dglazkov> annevk: touch event are definitely going to need retargeting, too.
# [17:39] <dglazkov> annevk: I may have copy/pasted links carelessly in the email
# [17:39] <dglazkov> annevk: let me check
# [17:39] <annevk> dglazkov: also, why call it ancestor and not parent?
# [17:40] <annevk> dglazkov: isn't it a parent chain
# [17:40] <dglazkov> annevk: you call it ancestor chain
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# [17:40] <dglazkov> oh wait
# [17:40] <dglazkov> it's even path
# [17:40] <dglazkov> event path
# [17:40] <annevk> yeah
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# [17:41] <annevk> and it's a chain of parents, which together are called ancestors
# [17:41] <annevk> but okay, I can manage the terminology mismatch I suppose
# [17:42] <dglazkov> I guess then any given item in chain is ancestor in relation to event target
# [17:42] <annevk> dglazkov: the "Repeat while ANCESTOR exists:" is just about finding the next parent right?
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# [17:43] <dglazkov> annevk: yep
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# [17:43] <annevk> I want the "event path" to be constructed in a functional manner
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# [17:44] <annevk> so the dispatch algo asks the event target for its "event parent" and does that recursively to build up the event path
# [17:44] <annevk> and then we make hooks elsewhere in dispatch/invoke for adjusting stuff such as relatedTarget
# [17:44] <annevk> if possible
# [17:45] <dglazkov> aha. One link is off. In item 5 of the list in my mail, it should refer to http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#dispatching-events
# [17:46] <dglazkov> annevk: interesting on the recursion. Sure, if you can pull it off, sounds great
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# [17:48] <dglazkov> annevk: please feel free to run drafts/ideas by me or hayato@chromium.org.
# [17:48] <dglazkov> annevk: I will happily review and help out
# [17:49] <annevk> cool; the main problem is I want this to work for the seamless iframe stuff too, which requires event object cloning
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# [17:51] <odinho> annevk: Arialified: http://odinho.html5.org/CORS/cors-diagram-arial.svg
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# [17:56] <dglazkov> annevk: event object cloning is a special case of retargeting, I'll need that for shadow dom here: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16509
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# [18:01] <annevk> yeah, you'd need it for isolation
# [18:02] <annevk> dglazkov: btw, wouldn't the relatedtarget only change at boundary points?
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# [18:03] <dglazkov> annevk: yes.
# [18:03] <annevk> dglazkov: that is, when you exit a shadow tree (and either enter another one or come back to the real world)
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# [18:03] <annevk> so why would you store it for each object in the event path?
# [18:03] <dglazkov> annevk: or come from insertion point back into shadow tree
# [18:03] <annevk> right
# [18:03] <dglazkov> annevk: you don't
# [18:04] <dglazkov> or shouldn't
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# [18:05] <annevk> so I think what we should have is to create a stack of objects that's the event path; as well as markers or some such that indicate boundary points
# [18:05] <annevk> the markers can then be used to either adjust the event object or maybe use a clone or some such
# [18:06] <dglazkov> wait, you're talking about target, not relatedtarget
# [18:07] <dglazkov> right?
# [18:07] <annevk> well both I suppose
# [18:07] <dglazkov> you need to store adjusted target for the same reasons you store the event path
# [18:08] <dglazkov> because DOM changes by event listeners could affect the result
# [18:08] <annevk> hmmm
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# [18:24] <annevk> actually no
# [18:24] <annevk> dglazkov: well the event path is cached
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# [18:25] <annevk> dglazkov: so you're saying we need to cache the targets too in case the tree is manipulated
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# [18:28] <dglazkov> annevk: technically, you don't have to cache them, as long as you cached the event path and the boundaries. But it makes the algorithm easier to understand.
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# [18:29] <MikeSmith> Fuck we gotta fix the OPTIONS thing on w3c-test odinho
# [18:29] <dglazkov> even if the tree is manipulated, as long as the markers (as you called them) for when the boundary transitions occurred at the time of constructing event path are cached, you can reconstruct the adjusted targets.
# [18:29] <MikeSmith> but i still have no clue
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# [18:30] <odinho> MikeSmith: Hehe :-) darobin came a bit closer when he said it was working on a clean (new) Apache though. So the diff between "normal apache" and w3c-one, ought to be a bit smaller than going through everything at least.
# [18:31] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [18:34] <MikeSmith> anyway I'm at a loss. i like fiddling with Apache BS just slightly better than i love writing apps in PHP
# [18:36] <odinho> Haha, me too. I even stopped using Apache, and use nginx nowadays.
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# [18:37] <odinho> Anyway, I should leave work, no good standing here all day - it's been super dark for a long time already.
# [18:37] <MikeSmith> yep
# [18:40] <MikeSmith> i find that the mass of Apache "tuning" i ever do is just unwinding all the idiotic things that Apache does by default
# [18:40] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, where's your console spec gone?
# [18:40] <MikeSmith> odinho: Hai
# [18:41] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: should still be there wherever it was before
# [18:41] <MikeSmith> I'm nu
# [18:41] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, where was your console spec before? :)
# [18:42] <MikeSmith> github
# [18:42] <MikeSmith> sideshowbarker
# [18:42] <MikeSmith> i think
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# [18:44] <MikeSmith> can get you the URL later
# [18:44] <MikeSmith> right now I'm on my mobile
# [18:45] <MikeSmith> plus, I'm lit
# [18:45] <Ms2ger> Yeah, found it
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# [18:47] <MikeSmith> anyway, vp9
# [18:47] <MikeSmith> clearly the time is right
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# [18:48] <MikeSmith> since vp8 has seen such widespread adoption
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# [18:49] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: No, "and/or" carries some useful weight as being unambiguously different from xor. Plain "or" can be interpreted in either way in English.
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# [18:52] <TabAtkins> nimbu: (Hopefully you read logs.) Regarding http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/136744, it's not exposed to JS. We're just copying Firefox and making pseudo-elements live in the DOM tree, to make our code sane.
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# [18:59] <annevk> dglazkov: right okay
# [18:59] <TabAtkins> annevk: Why isn't an enum nullable?
# [18:59] <jwalden> onload in a top-level window that has iframes in it, with valid srcs for them, should block until the iframes have onload, right?
# [18:59] <annevk> TabAtkins: oh it is
# [19:00] <TabAtkins> annevk: Ah kk.
# [19:00] <annevk> TabAtkins: but we haven't used that ability thus far
# [19:00] <TabAtkins> Ok, then I'll send my response email.
# [19:00] <TabAtkins> It seems weird to me that enums would have a different "no value" behavior than all the other types in WebIDL.
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# [19:01] <jwalden> oh, never mind, I are Dumb
# [19:02] * jwalden could have sworn window.frameName gave back a window, not the iframe element
# [19:02] <annevk> TabAtkins: typically for strings the no value case is the empty string, not null
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# [19:03] <Ms2ger> jwalden, ... it does
# [19:03] <TabAtkins> annevk: Yeah, but it's a weird split. I'd prefer the platform have one behavior there.
# [19:03] <jwalden> Ms2ger: not in this testcase, oddly
# [19:03] <annevk> I don't really think there's a split TabAtkins
# [19:03] <Hixie> MikeSmith: well the DOM you get when you don't have the depth limiter is definitely the ideal result, but I think it's reasonable to assume that if we need the depth limiter, we won't end up with that exact result.
# [19:04] <annevk> TabAtkins: e.g. for numbers they typically default to 0 or Infinity or some such, not null
# [19:04] <Ms2ger> jwalden, global scope pollution?
# [19:04] <Hixie> zcorpan: I think the text in r7589 is right; why wouldn't it be?
# [19:04] <TabAtkins> Hmm, not sure about that, but I'd have to look into stuff for evidence.
# [19:06] <annevk> it's also awkward if you need to explicitly null check an attribute
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# [19:06] <annevk> much easier if they're all strings, which is why XHR.responseType is just that...
# [19:06] <TabAtkins> The right way is to just test it for falseyness anyway.
# [19:07] <TabAtkins> Can you elaborate why it's awkward?
# [19:09] <annevk> because you need to account for distinct types and cannot assume what you got can be manipulated as a single type
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# [19:09] <Hixie> jgraham: the only reason i think the process violation matters is that the process is supposedly the reason the whatwg is bad and the w3c is good
# [19:09] <Hixie> (according to some)
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# [19:09] <jwalden> Ms2ger: oh, sigh, <iframe name=foo> and <iframe id=foo> are unalike in this matter
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# [19:10] <TabAtkins> annevk: Ah, that's true. null+'' == 'null'
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# [19:11] <annevk> jwalden: for global scope pollution the name attribute only works on a select set of elements
# [19:11] <annevk> jwalden: forgot if <iframe> is among them
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# [19:11] <jwalden> annevk: window.frameName is distinct from GSP, or at least it is in Gecko
# [19:11] <Hixie> Ms2ger: how do i replace and/or in "When a user agent is to fetch a resource or URL, optionally from an origin origin, optionally using a specific referrer source as an override referrer source, and optionally with a synchronous flag, a manual redirect flag, a force same-origin flag, and/or a block cookies flag, the following steps must be run."?
# [19:12] <annevk> jwalden: sounds about right
# [19:12] <Ms2ger> "or"? :)
# [19:12] <jwalden> window.frameName appears to look only for name=, GSP was looking for id=, and I was using id= and so getting GSP behavior where I expected window.frameName behavior
# [19:12] <jwalden> yeah, that was a hedge :-)
# [19:12] <jwalden> given GSP is stupid
# [19:13] <Ms2ger> But hey, at least it's specced now
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# [19:13] <jwalden> aaaagh
# [19:14] <jwalden> stupid webkit, stupidly treating data URLs as different-origin and making life hard for one-off test authors
# [19:14] <Ms2ger> Hixie, tbh, a list
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# [19:14] <annevk> hmm
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# [19:14] <annevk> so where is window.frameName defined?
# [19:14] <Hixie> Ms2ger: oh, i see, prefix the list with something like "optionally with any of" or something
# [19:14] <annevk> no hits in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/browsers.html
# [19:15] <annevk> hmm, jwalden, does that even exist?
# [19:15] <jwalden> annevk: you don't want to search for frameName, that'd only apply if <iframe name="frameName">
# [19:15] * jwalden doesn't know the term to use
# [19:15] <Ms2ger> annevk, getter(DOMString)
# [19:15] <annevk> oh it's window.name
# [19:16] <Ms2ger> Hixie, yeah
# [19:16] <annevk> well window.name exists
# [19:16] <annevk> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/browsers.html#dom-name
# [19:16] <annevk> the other one is http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/browsers.html#dom-window-nameditem
# [19:16] <annevk> jwalden: named property access?
# [19:17] <jwalden> perhaps
# [19:17] * jwalden is just trying to write a document.all testcase
# [19:17] <jwalden> STAB ME NOW
# [19:17] <annevk> so yeah, window[name] can never match <iframe name=frame> because <iframe> is not on the whitelist
# [19:17] <annevk> but I guess <a target=frame> will target that
# [19:17] <annevk> good times
# [19:17] <jwalden> ...wait, what?
# [19:18] <jwalden> window.foo should give you <iframe name=foo>'s window
# [19:18] <jwalden> or at least that's what I'm seeing in Gecko, and I thought it was supposed to be how iframe window.* stuff worked
# [19:18] <annevk> never mind, I'm missing something
# [19:19] <Hixie> Ms2ger: "Zero or more As and/or Bs" when trying to say you can do "ABBA" or "AA" or "B"
# [19:19] <annevk> this pollution is not only global scope pollution, it's apparently also fricking weird
# [19:19] <jwalden> :-)
# [19:19] <Hixie> Ms2ger: "Zero or more As and Bs" seems a little less unambiguous. Any suggestions?
# [19:19] <annevk> sometimes returning Window objects, sometimes elements, sometimes a single element
# [19:20] <Ms2ger> annevk, yeah, it's both frames.name and window.name :)
# [19:21] <annevk> Ms2ger: I prefer self, it's more zen
# [19:21] <jgraham> Hixie: I don't think it follows that people think that every part of the Process is good or necessary. That is, I don't think it is logically inconsistent to think that the Process is better than the WHATWG approach and to be happy with violation of some aspects of the Process.
# [19:21] <jgraham> But I guess I should stop talking
# [19:21] <jgraham> Or I might accidentially create a Process discussion
# [19:21] * Ms2ger kicks jgraham out of the tree house
# [19:21] <annevk> jgraham: sounds reasonable to me
# [19:22] <annevk> jgraham: I personally like the patent bits, the rest not so much
# [19:22] <Hixie> jgraham: if there are people saying that the process is why i should work at the w3c, but who simultaneously believe that they can ignore the process when it suits them, then how the heck am i supposed to know when i'm to follow the process or not?
# [19:22] <Hixie> jgraham: they released the CR yesterday with _131_ open bugs
# [19:22] <Hixie> jgraham: if "we have to resolve all open feedback before going to CR" isn't one of the things in the process that matters, what is?
# [19:23] <Hixie> jgraham: i'm all in favour of just ignoring the process, or having some well-defined subset that we actually agree should be followed
# [19:23] <Hixie> jgraham: it's this hypocritical double-standard that i have a problem with
# [19:24] <Ms2ger> The part that matters is: "The W3C will put up a press release"
# [19:24] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Use of just "and" seems fine there.
# [19:24] <Hixie> TabAtkins: roger
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# [19:25] <jgraham> Well arguably the HTMLWG did have a well-defined subset that will actually be followed
# [19:25] <jgraham> They set release dates
# [19:25] <Hixie> they've never followed _those_ before
# [19:25] <jgraham> and said "on those dates we will transition"
# [19:26] <jgraham> "and screw all other considerations"
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# [19:26] <jgraham> Which isn't a bad process, really
# [19:26] <Hixie> if the w3c wants to do transitions on a date-based schedule, then fine. if that's their process, then i disagree with their process on substance.
# [19:26] <Hixie> but they don't claim that that's their process, as they claim to care about spec quality.
# [19:27] <jgraham> I don't really care what they claim to care about
# [19:27] <Hixie> i care insofar as they ask me to work with their process
# [19:27] <jgraham> I care when they get in the way of improving the web
# [19:27] <Hixie> making me follow a process that doesn't put quality first seems to be an example of such
# [19:27] <jgraham> AFAICT releasing the old version of the spec with a new label and known bugs doesn't really affect that
# [19:28] <jgraham> As long as everyone important knows it's an old version
# [19:28] <Hixie> depends on the label, but yeah, i'm all in favour of releasing patent snapshots
# [19:28] <Hixie> but if that's what they want to do, why are they bothering with the intermediate steps?
# [19:28] <Hixie> if they're going to transition regardless, why not just do the transitions that matter?
# [19:28] <jgraham> Because it looks more like the Process
# [19:29] <Hixie> so, bullshit then
# [19:29] <Hixie> that's my point.
# [19:29] <jgraham> Well, I don't think that complaining about it will make the Process more likely to change
# [19:29] <Hixie> agreed
# [19:30] <Hixie> but highlighting the hypocrisy might reduce the number of people who try to argue me into following teh process :-)
# [19:30] <jgraham> Although I think that documenting it and putting forward evidence that the real process is something other than the Process might be convincing when discussions about Process change are happening
# [19:30] <jwalden> dangit Hixie, why do you have to use standards mode for http://software.hixie.ch/ :-(
# [19:30] * jwalden finds another page on that domain that doesn't
# [19:31] <Hixie> jwalden: if you need a quirks page i can make one
# [19:31] <Hixie> jwalden: what's up
# [19:31] <jwalden> Hixie: /utilities/js/ did the trick for me
# [19:31] <jgraham> In particular being able to say "actually with sucessful specs X Y and Z we ignored these parts of the Process" is a pretty compelling counterargument when you get the usual conservative voices saying "we can't change anything because (imaginary reason)"
# [19:31] <Hixie> jwalden: /quirks
# [19:32] <jwalden> Hixie: that'll do too, and a little more nicely -- thanks!
# [19:32] <Hixie> jwalden: np
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# [19:33] <Hixie> jgraham: HTML has been hugely successful by pretty much every metric and has entirely ignored the process so far, hasn't convinced anyone yet :-)
# [19:33] <Hixie> anyone at w3c i mean
# [19:33] <Hixie> except maybe MikeSmith :-)
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# [19:34] <jwalden> (tm)
# [19:34] <jgraham> jwalden: Oh, that MikeSmith!
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# [19:38] <JonathanNeal> helloo
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# [19:40] <jwalden> is there any way to expand the little fast-commenting widget on whatwg.org/html other than by DOM-hacking? what I want to say is single-paragraphish, a little past single-lineish
# [19:40] <Hixie> yeah
# [19:40] <Hixie> submit the comment
# [19:40] <Hixie> then use the bug form :-)
# [19:41] <Hixie> or whatwg.org/newbug
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# [20:26] <hober> what's the url to that 'selected history of when features have been added to the web platform' page?
# [20:27] <Ms2ger> http://platform.html5.org/history/
# [20:28] <hober> thanks. http://platform.html5.org/ should really link to that. :)
# [20:29] <annevk> Hixie: claiming there are no lines while they have distinct editors is not useful, or you volunteering?
# [20:29] <annevk> are you*
# [20:30] <jwalden> Hixie: I went with /newbug, filed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20436
# [20:30] <Ms2ger> annevk, he's volunteering you to edit HTML :)
# [20:31] <annevk> Ms2ger: interesting plot twist, but no thanks :)
# [20:31] <Ms2ger> Wasn't the ambient light events feedback supposed to go to another list than public-webapps?
# [20:31] <jwalden> hm, and I mostly missed a Gecko platform meeting
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# [20:42] <Hixie> annevk: i think the line between what each of us edits is more or less arbitrary
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# [20:42] <Hixie> annevk: e.g. look at CORS vs Fetch vs URL
# [20:42] <annevk> yeah that's a mess now :(
# [20:42] <annevk> well, apart from URL, that's mostly sane
# [20:42] <annevk> (layering wise)
# [20:43] <Hixie> i'd say the line between DOM and HTML is similarly messy :-)
# [20:43] <Hixie> (which is fine)
# [20:43] <annevk> well, my plan for Fetch/CORS is to merge them
# [20:44] <annevk> for DOM I don't know, I guess it could be part of HTML at some point; currently it has no dependencies on HTML which is kinda nice
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# [20:44] <annevk> if we add origin that'd no longer be the case
# [20:44] <Hixie> you can add origin by reffing [ORIGIN]
# [20:44] <Hixie> no need to ref HTML
# [20:44] <Hixie> we can always avoid two-way references just by using hooks
# [20:45] <Hixie> but it's an artificial avoidance
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# [20:47] <annevk> no that's not the problem
# [20:48] <annevk> the problem is for new Document() I need to get hold of the script's origin or something to copy from
# [20:48] <Hixie> sure but you could in theory just offer a hook
# [20:48] <Hixie> not saying you should
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# [20:52] <annevk> I think I'll just define it and have Ms2ger find another way
# [20:52] <annevk> and if he doesn't I suppose I might merge in domparsing
# [20:52] <Hixie> heh
# [20:53] <annevk> mind if I reassign that bug to DOM?
# [20:53] <Hixie> go ahead, just don't close it if there's anything more to do before it's fixed
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# [20:53] <Hixie> (not that i would expect you would)
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# [20:54] <annevk> I guess I might file a new bug on HTML to "update for DOM origin" or some such
# [20:54] <Hixie> lgtm
# [20:58] <annevk> I don't get https://twitter.com/w3cmemes/status/281121937193828352
# [20:58] <annevk> Prefixes are not part of the W3C Process
# [20:59] <Hixie> wow, that's a lot of w3cmemes about the process thing
# [20:59] <Hixie> and i didn't even post one of them :-)
# [21:01] <annevk> since people complained about the lack of memes, I thought I'd add a couple
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# [21:03] <tantek> maybe it's a "living CR" ;)
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# [21:06] <hober> annevk: that one presumably refers to TTA
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# [21:07] <annevk> hober: well sure and presumably the person writing that one thought the others were written by someone on the CSS WG
# [21:07] <annevk> hober: even so though, unprefixing has nothing to do with the W3C Process
# [21:07] <hober> indeed
# [21:07] <hober> i'm ashamed to admit i don't get the fraft one
# [21:08] <Ms2ger> That was just a typo on my part, I think
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# [21:08] <annevk> heh
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# [21:11] <Ms2ger> Dec 11 18:02:11 <krisk> E.g. draft and not master
# [21:11] <Ms2ger> Dec 11 18:02:24 <Ms2ger> Everything is a fraft
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# [21:45] <jamesr_> annevk, prefixes are handled within the w3c process in the csswg, roughly speaking
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# [22:05] <tantek> jamesr_, annevk, not really. The CSSWG has its own process for prefixes, which got heavily amended this past year, due to widespread acceptance that the previous process for prefixes wasn't working.
# [22:05] <tantek> There's no W3C process for "prefixes".
# [22:05] <tantek> W3C-wide that is.
# [22:06] <tantek> No other WG that I know of re-uses CSSWG prefix processes either.
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# [22:09] <JonathanNeal> a lot of w3c memes about cr
# [22:10] <hober> jamesr_: apis defined in the webapps wg, for instance, get unprefixed in a much more informal manner than css properties
# [22:10] <JonathanNeal> http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mebyf5EMTk1rvsbh9o1_400.gif haha
# [22:12] <JonathanNeal> I liked <main>, Hixie. :|
# [22:13] <Hixie> <main> (and role=main) don't do anything you can't do more effectively in other ways, as far as i can tell
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# [22:16] <JonathanNeal> All right. I will try to do it the right way. How should I do it?
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# [22:20] <jgraham> WebApps doesn't have any prefix process that I know of. If vendors prefix webapps things that's a choice not a decree from on high
# [22:20] <JonathanNeal> I'm sorry if that seems like a baiting question. I'm actually very interested in html element and class naming conventions.
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# [22:20] <jgraham> JonathanNeal: Hixie's opinion on <main> is not universially shared :)
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# [22:21] <JonathanNeal> jgraham: well, I would really appreciate contrasting examples. Are there any on the web / in a gist right now?
# [22:21] <jgraham> JonathanNeal: (I have no idea what your originl question was)
# [22:22] <JonathanNeal> jgraham: my question is that, if <main> (and role=main) don't do anything you can't do more effectively in other ways, how should I do it then?
# [22:23] <JonathanNeal> and by "do it" I mean "markup something that would have used <main> or role=main"
# [22:23] <jamesr_> JonathanNeal, that image is gold :D
# [22:23] <jgraham> JonathanNeal: I don't think I agree with the premise there
# [22:23] <jgraham> At least
# [22:24] <JonathanNeal> That's great. I'm probably going to learn something then.
# [22:24] <jgraham> I am under the impression that role=main is actually supported in screenreaders in a way that the "scooby doo" alternative isn't
# [22:25] <JonathanNeal> Would it help if I posted a gist of how I might have used role="main" in a simple html document, or would this still proceed the questionable premise?
# [22:25] <jgraham> And that it is more likely that they will implement <main> than the scooby doo algorithm
# [22:25] <jgraham> No, that seems quite reasonable.
# [22:25] <JonathanNeal> What is the "scooby doo" alternative?
# [22:25] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: what is "it" that you are trying to do?
# [22:26] <jgraham> My understanding is that if you are thinking "<main> surrounds the content that is *this page* rather than site-wide content, or navigation, or whatever" you are doing it right
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# [22:27] <jgraham> Alternatively, if you prefer a more practical way of looking at it, it should be the content that you would like a AT user to skip to if they ask to skip to the main content
# [22:27] <JonathanNeal> jgraham: what you just said is what I thought it was, and how I was using role="main". Like an ID, it was a solitary and unique grouping.
# [22:28] <tantek> jgraham, yes is my understanding as well
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# [22:28] <JonathanNeal> jgraham: I was, however, confused over whether <main> was per group or per page.
# [22:28] <jgraham> per page
# [22:28] <tantek> JonathanNeal, you can go ahead and use <main> right now as long as you close your <p> … </p> elements explicitly ;)
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# [22:30] <jgraham> JonathanNeal: the "scooby doo" algorithm is the alternative approach. You enumerate all the characters in the story, subtract out the ones you recognise (Scooby, Shaggy, Velma, Daphne, etc.) and whoever's left is the villian. Except s/story/markup/, s/characters/section elements/ and s/villian/main content/
# [22:30] <JonathanNeal> I see. In other areas, many <elements> were scoped per group, like <header>, <footer>, <nav>, even <section>, <article>, etc. This would make <main> very unique, like <title>, <html>, <body>.
# [22:30] <JonathanNeal> Am I understanding this correctly?
# [22:30] <jgraham> Yes
# [22:30] <jgraham> It is more-body-than-body
# [22:30] <jgraham> if you like
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# [22:32] <erlehmann> oh hello people
# [22:32] <erlehmann> i just posted this on the list http://daten.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/src/media-fragments-html-polyfill/
# [22:33] <erlehmann> how can i help bringing this into the browsers?
# [22:34] <JonathanNeal> erlehmann: is there supposed to be something more than <http://example.org/podcast.html#episode1&t=01:23> ? Like, an element name?
# [22:35] <erlehmann> JonathanNeal, episode1 is the element name.
# [22:35] <erlehmann> in my example, #audio and #video are the element names
# [22:36] <JonathanNeal> Sorry, the element's nodeName.
# [22:37] <erlehmann> JonathanNeal, I do not understand how the name of the current node comes into this
# [22:37] <JonathanNeal> In your example, you have between a < and > a url. I've never seen markup like this.
# [22:38] <erlehmann> oh, that is not markup.
# [22:38] <erlehmann> that is a url.
# [22:38] <erlehmann> sorry, is this misleading? let me correct it.
# [22:38] <erlehmann> urls in plain text are delimited by < and >
# [22:38] <TabAtkins> That's just a common way of indicating in plain-text markup that something is a URL, and delimiting it from surrounding text like commas and periods.
# [22:38] <TabAtkins> (Works in Markdown.)
# [22:39] <erlehmann> corrected.
# [22:39] <JonathanNeal> Ah, sorry, I interpreted it differently on that page.
# [22:39] <erlehmann> JonathanNeal, corrected.
# [22:39] <JonathanNeal> Yeap. That's a fun polyfill. Good job taking advantage of the hashchange event.
# [22:40] <erlehmann> JonathanNeal, i removed the brackets and wrote text clarifying that this is an URL
# [22:41] <JonathanNeal> erlehmann: Yeap. I saw. It was very minor and I'm sorry it threw me off.
# [22:41] <erlehmann> as far as i am concerned, misunderstandings are my fault.
# [22:42] <erlehmann> so, as i regard this very useful, where do i start implementing it?
# [22:43] <erlehmann> or does this suffice as proof of concept?
# [22:44] <annevk> erlehmann: <abbr title=Hypertext Markup Language> does not work ;)
# [22:44] <annevk> erlehmann: well it does, but Markup and Language are not valid attributes :)
# [22:45] <JonathanNeal> erlehmann: is there a git project?
# [22:45] <annevk> erlehmann: also, you might want to write & as &
# [22:45] <erlehmann> yeah, & probably should have been escaped as &amp at a lots of places
# [22:45] <erlehmann> annevk, thanks.
# [22:46] <erlehmann> i will correct
# [22:47] <annevk> maybe if we start introducing this it would be better to avoid using & again
# [22:47] <erlehmann> validates now http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fdaten.dieweltistgarnichtso.net%2Fsrc%2Fmedia-fragments-html-polyfill%2Findex.html
# [22:47] <annevk> and use ; as a separator in the fragment
# [22:48] <erlehmann> yeah, media fragments use “&” as a separator already
# [22:49] <annevk> oh it's a W3C REC
# [22:49] <annevk> meh
# [22:49] <erlehmann> http://www.example.com/example.ogv#track=audio&t=10,20
# [22:49] <erlehmann> well …
# [22:49] <JonathanNeal> erlehmann: I'm getting an error "Uncaught TypeError: Cannot call method 'split' of undefined", because there was no fragment.
# [22:50] <erlehmann> JonathanNeal, well … well. Let me fix that.
# [22:50] <JonathanNeal> I can fix this and send it to you, or you can fix it yourself. Could we host this on git?
# [22:50] <erlehmann> Thanks!
# [22:50] <erlehmann> I'll create a repository
# [22:50] <JonathanNeal> Thanks. I'll subscribe, fork, and make suggestions for you to reject. 8P
# [22:53] <erlehmann> JonathanNeal https://github.com/erlehmann/media-fragments-html-polyfill
# [22:53] <erlehmann> 8P! 9P!
# [22:53] <erlehmann> :D
# [22:53] <erlehmann> :---DDD
# [22:53] <JonathanNeal> Hixie, are you saying you prefer the "scooby doo" method that jgraham mentioned, where you enumerate all the characters in the story, subtract out the ones you recognize (Scooby, Shaggy, Velma, Daphne, etc.) and whoever's left is the villain. Except s/story/markup/, s/characters/section elements/ and s/villian/main content/ ?
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# [22:54] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: let's start from fundamentals; what's the problem you're trying to solve?
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# [22:55] <erlehmann> Evidence-based web standards. I like!
# [22:55] <erlehmann> JonathanNeal, can you fix the uncaught type error and stuff? I am writing a README right now.
# [22:56] <JonathanNeal> I would like to reflect the meaning of my document. The prerequisite is that I could use all <div>s and well phrased classnames, but I like using something more semantic than classnames.
# [22:56] <JonathanNeal> erlehmann: heap, on it.
# [22:57] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: if you just want to reflect the meaning of your document, then include a huge  in your source code that documents the meaning in detail.
# [22:57] <Hixie> (in a natural language)
# [22:58] <JonathanNeal> Would you say this is a suitable alternative to my goal?
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# [22:58] <JonathanNeal> Sorry, to the <main> method?
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# [23:00] <erlehmann> JonathanNeal, what meaning you want to convey that is missing without <main> ?
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# [23:03] <JonathanNeal> Let me correct this bug in the most minimal way possible. There are a few failure points.
# [23:03] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: if your goal is to "reflect the meaning of my document", I don't think <main> really does anything to help you at all
# [23:03] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: but then i don't really think "reflect the meaning of my document" is your actual goal
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# [23:03] <JonathanNeal> Hixie: <header/><main/><footer/>
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# [23:04] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: <header/>...<footer/>
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# [23:05] <JonathanNeal> I understand. By remainder we have the main content.
# [23:05] <Hixie> also, consider <header/>...<aside/>...<aside/>...<footer/>
# [23:06] <Hixie> but again, the real question is what problem are you trying to solve?
# [23:06] <Hixie> because without knowing the problem, it's hard to evaluate the solution
# [23:06] <Hixie> if the problem is "my document doesn't have an element named "main"" then obviously <main> solves the problem better than anything else
# [23:06] <Hixie> if the problem is "my document doesn't have anything bluew in it" then nothing we're talking about helps one way or the other
# [23:06] <Hixie> blue
# [23:07] <Velmont> Not having endless "what is the use for x" and how to use "y" is also a feature of kinds.
# [23:08] <Velmont> (put discussions in there somewhere :P)
# [23:09] <JonathanNeal> Hixie, I'm sorry that, despite my efforts, you do not believe I have asked a suitable question or presented a suitable problem that is worth solving.
# [23:09] <Velmont> Mapping more to how web devs see the world -> less confusion -> win.
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# [23:10] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: the only problem you've described is "I would like to reflect the meaning of my document".
# [23:10] <JonathanNeal> I would like to clearly define the main content of my document.
# [23:10] <Hixie> why?
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# [23:10] <Hixie> can you describe the problem you're trying to solve in terms of the user, say?
# [23:11] <JonathanNeal> So that I can dictate to computers where the main content of my document is, and so that I can control markup aspects of the main content.
# [23:13] <erlehmann> JonathanNeal, rational taboo „main content“. how would you describe it then?
# [23:14] <JonathanNeal> I'm unsure how to answer that question, I'm sorry. I don't understand it.
# [23:15] <erlehmann> the rationalist taboo is a technique to get more accurate results in discussion http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Rationalist_taboo
# [23:16] <erlehmann> if you are not allowed to mention „main content“ how would you describe that which you want to represent?
# [23:17] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: so you're saying you want to style parts of your document differently?
# [23:17] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: doesn't <div> do that already?
# [23:21] <erlehmann> > When you find yourself in philosophical difficulties, the first line of defense is not to define your problematic terms, but to see whether you can think without using those terms at all. Or any of their short synonyms. And be careful not to let yourself invent a new word to use instead.
# [23:21] <erlehmann> i find that useful
# [23:23] <JonathanNeal> As I said earlier, I could use <div classname> everywhere, so perhaps the question is "when should a element with an implied meaning be used instead of a element with generic meaning?
# [23:23] <JonathanNeal> "when should there be"
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# [23:25] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: so far the answer has been "when authors use a class name so consistently that a single definition describes the use" and "when providing an element with a specific meaning allows for new functionality"
# [23:25] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: so e.g. <section> allows for automatic heading sizing
# [23:25] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: and <footer> is used pretty consistently
# [23:25] <JonathanNeal> erlehmann: pull request sent. I tried to split the commits out so you could see how I arrived where I did.
# [23:25] <Hixie> or rather, class=footer
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# [23:28] <erlehmann> JonathanNeal, this makes it less readable https://github.com/jonathantneal/media-fragments-html-polyfill/commit/72f50bc7c19ac1d920300a933f479e85a5e0dd9e
# [23:29] <erlehmann> the others are fine :)
# [23:33] <JonathanNeal> erlehmann: would comments resolve the readability issue? It seems less readable with functions because it makes the flow less linear.
# [23:33] <erlehmann> i just don't like regular expressions
# [23:34] <JonathanNeal> But I understand that's why you're naming the functions as such. Well, your split can have some adverse effects. For instance, if you split by & and return [1] then you're potentially losing [2], [3], etc.
# [23:34] <JonathanNeal> This is why I switched to regular expressions, which are your friend.
# [23:35] <JonathanNeal> Hixie: what about for hgroup? I always thought the web used something closer to subline.
# [23:35] <JonathanNeal> Until hgroup, that is.
# [23:36] <Hixie> hgroup matches the second category - it provides new functionality
# [23:36] <Hixie> (namely, not confusing outliners such as used by the spec itself)
# [23:36] <Hixie> heycam: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-script-coord/2012OctDec/0007.html - is this something that was fixed in webidl, perchance?
# [23:37] <Hixie> (afk, bb in 30)
# [23:37] <JonathanNeal> Hixie: so in this case <main> does not add functionality that role="main" doesn't already imply?
# [23:37] <Hixie> role=main doesn't add functionality either
# [23:37] <Hixie> (actually afk)
# [23:39] <heycam> Hixie, not fixed yet
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# [23:39] <JonathanNeal> It separates the main content of your document from the heading, navigation, etc. Following your criteria, "skip to main content" links have been used so consistently that a single definition describes the use.
# [23:40] <JonathanNeal> erlehmann: trying to ping you off this channel about the bugs. not sure if you're getting my messages.
# [23:41] <erlehmann> still there
# [23:41] <erlehmann> i wrote my own irc client
# [23:42] <JonathanNeal> Does it support private messaging?
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# [23:42] <JonathanNeal> Hixie: would skip to "main" content usage on the web qualify?
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# Session Close: Wed Dec 19 00:00:00 2012

The end :)