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- # Session Start: Fri Jan 04 00:00:00 2013
- # Session Ident: #whatwg
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- # [00:09] <gavin> the w3 brand
- # [00:10] <zewt> who would want that
- # [00:11] <Hixie> i'm certainly ok with them keeping that...
- # [00:11] <zewt> that'd be like buying out RealPlayer for the brand recognition
- # [00:11] <Hixie> hah
- # [00:11] <gavin> it's not valuable for their reputation amongst people who actually know what they do
- # [00:12] <gavin> it's valuable for all the other people in the world, of which we are but a small minority
- # [00:12] <zewt> nobody else cares
- # [00:13] <gavin> I wish that that that were true, but it's a horribly naive claim
- # [00:13] <Hixie> it's not clear to me what difference it makes. authors use what's implemented. the implementors are those "who actually know what they do".
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- # [00:14] <gavin> plenty of people still think the w3 is highly relevant to web standardization
- # [00:14] <gavin> that reputation has value
- # [00:14] <Hixie> but what does their thinking that actually do, concretely?
- # [00:14] <Hixie> i mean, if it's just a matter of who gets credit, i don't care
- # [00:15] <Hixie> i'm happy for the mainstream media to pester the w3c PR team and let us get on with the work :-)
- # [00:15] <zewt> can't say i've ever known anyone who isn't actually implementing (or complaining about something not implementing) who cared at all about the w3c, or the ietf for that matter
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- # [00:17] <gavin> it's not just about credit. reputation is an important part of being able to influence people and things.
- # [00:18] <zewt> and reputation is something the w3c has been losing rapidly of late
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- # [00:21] <Hixie> gavin: what is it the w3c can influence that is valuable?
- # [00:21] <Hixie> we already write all the specs we want (or rather, hand the bandwidth) to write
- # [00:21] <Hixie> s/hand/have/
- # [00:22] <Hixie> the browser vendors have influence on the spec
- # [00:22] <Hixie> the w3c has never had that influence
- # [00:22] <gavin> they can influence people's thoughts about what web standards are important
- # [00:22] <gavin> you might say that that's "not important"
- # [00:23] <zewt> i'd say that's a bit too vague to even have an opinion on, can you be more concrete
- # [00:23] <Hixie> do you have any examples of them doing that?
- # [00:23] <Hixie> i'm not sure what you mean
- # [00:23] <Hixie> like how they influenced people to think XHTML2, XForms, and RDF were important?
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- # [00:25] <zewt> if browser vendors wants to implement something, authors want to use it and whatwg has the bandwidth to spec it, no amount of handwaving or ranting from the w3c would stop it from happening (if they even chose to try, which I'm not aware of them doing)
- # [00:25] <Hixie> well they tried to stop HTML
- # [00:26] <gavin> many people think that HTML5 CR is an important milestone, for example
- # [00:26] <Hixie> (and to a lesser extent canvas and microdata)
- # [00:26] <gavin> if the w3 tomorrow released a statement saying that HTML5 development hit a wall and that they'd need to delay its readiness as an official spec, many people would believe them
- # [00:26] <Hixie> and so?
- # [00:27] <zewt> meanwhile stuff would keep getting implemented and they'd look silly
- # [00:27] <Hixie> and people would still use it
- # [00:27] <gavin> no, people would not use it as much
- # [00:27] <Hixie> just like they have been using it for years while the w3c kept saying it wasn't done
- # [00:27] <zewt> that's quite a claim
- # [00:27] <gavin> I'm not talking about the existing uses. I'm talking about new uses.
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- # [00:28] <Hixie> people have used new stuff that i've specced and people have implemented so quickly that we've actually been forced into compataibility constraints before i was done speccing them
- # [00:28] <Hixie> pushState() being the best example
- # [00:28] <gavin> getting people to buy that HTML is a suitable platform for mobile development is just as much about PR as it is about what gets implemented
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- # [00:28] <zewt> not at all, it's only about getting apple and google to fix their crappy-to-useless mobile browsers
- # [00:28] <Hixie> getting people to buy that HTML is a suitable platform for mobile development is exclusively about whether HTML actually ir, or is not, a suitable platform.
- # [00:28] <Hixie> w3c has sod-all to do with that.
- # [00:29] <Hixie> (whatwg has very little to do with it either)
- # [00:29] <gavin> no, it's not at all exclusively about that
- # [00:29] <gavin> it would be nice if it were
- # [00:29] <Hixie> people are _trying_ to use the web, and can't because of browser limitations, and that has nothing to do with the w3c
- # [00:29] <Hixie> which would have them using XForms and RDF
- # [00:29] <gavin> but we don't live in a world where the only thing that matters is bits-shipped, nice as that would be
- # [00:29] <gavin> anyhow, I'm clearly not going to get anywhere arguing with you guys about this, so I'll drop it
- # [00:30] <Hixie> i think facebook's comments (which were based entirely on their experience, as far as i can tell, and not at all on the w3c) had more impact on people's view of the web as a platform for mobile dev than anything the w3c ever did or said
- # [00:30] <zewt> (and I suspect both apple and google half-ass their mobile browsers intentionally because they want people to write nonportable apps instead)
- # [00:31] <gavin> I gave a very theoretical example of something that the w3 could impact using its influence - they haven't done that, so it's kind of moot
- # [00:31] <Hixie> have they ever impacted anything with their influence?
- # [00:31] <gavin> I agree that they're losing their influence, obviously, but it's naive to claim that they don't have any
- # [00:32] <gavin> yes, plenty
- # [00:32] <Hixie> i'm happy to believe they have some if there's any evidence that they've had some, but so far the only impact i've seen is pretty much irrelevant. e.g. they had an impact on what doctypes people use, but that's just an opaque stirng.
- # [00:32] <gavin> companies have "must support w3 standards" on all of their checklists
- # [00:32] <Hixie> those companies write web pages that don't validate using flash and html5 features the w3c hasn't included in their specs.
- # [00:32] <Hixie> so i'm not sure that means anything.
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- # [01:35] <Yuhong> Personally I consider "HTML5" even as a buzzword a misnomer nowadays.
- # [01:37] <Yuhong> How many people using the buzzword know for example that canvas dates back to 2005?
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- # [01:46] <Yuhong> Personally, I hope this can be finished: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Evolution
- # [01:46] <Yuhong> It will be helpful in proving the W3C process is flawed.
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- # [01:47] <Yuhong> Hopefully, the TAG elections will get the right people in and help get this finished.
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- # [01:50] <Hixie> if the people in question don't have time to update it now, why would they have time to update it after joining the mailing list and getting more mail than they do now?
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- # [01:56] <Yuhong> Hixie: http://logbot.glob.com.au/?c=freenode%23whatwg&s=dec+31+2012&e=4+Jan+2013#c759102
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- # [02:01] <Yuhong> Unrelated, but in case you didn't see it.
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- # [03:47] <rniwa> any mozilla folks here?
- # [03:48] <rniwa> ideally someone working on css.
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- # [03:50] <heycam> rniwa, I can try to help
- # [03:50] <rniwa> heycam: hi!
- # [03:50] <heycam> hey
- # [03:50] <rniwa> heycam: do you know if mozilla has any tests for CSS calc?
- # [03:50] <heycam> rniwa, we ought to
- # [03:50] <rniwa> heycam: if so, if you guys are planning to upstream those tests to W3C?
- # [03:50] <rniwa> heycam: i've checked http://test.csswg.org/source/contributors/mozilla/submitted/ but i don't see any tests there.
- # [03:51] <rniwa> heycam: mikelawther from google is implementing css calc in webkit
- # [03:51] <heycam> rniwa, people have been writing new tests in an upstreamable form, but I don't know if we have concrete plans to upstream existing tests
- # [03:51] <heycam> although it would be nice to
- # [03:51] <rniwa> heycam: and we would like to be abel to import your tests.
- # [03:51] <rniwa> heycam: ah, i see.
- # [03:51] <heycam> oh yes I met mikelawther at LCA last year
- # [03:51] <rniwa> heycam: cool :)
- # [03:51] <heycam> let me take a look at the existing tests
- # [03:51] <rniwa> heycam: could you keep him in the loop about your upstream effort?
- # [03:51] <heycam> to see how easy they would be to upstream
- # [03:52] <heycam> they are here btw: https://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/file/tip/layout/reftests/css-calc/
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- # [03:55] <heycam> rniwa, those tests seem reasonable self contained, so I think they shouldn't be hard to upstream
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- # [04:01] <rniwa> heycam: great.
- # [04:01] <rniwa> heycam: is there any Bugzilla bug filed anywhere regards to this?
- # [04:01] <heycam> just filed one
- # [04:01] <heycam> and CCed you
- # [04:01] <rniwa> heycam: thanks.
- # [04:01] <rniwa> heycam: oh
- # [04:01] <heycam> couldn't find mike as a bugzilla user there though
- # [04:01] <rniwa> heycam: yeah.
- # [04:01] <rniwa> heycam: i don't think he has Mozilla bug account.
- # [04:02] * rniwa waits for an email :)
- # [04:02] <rniwa> heycam: thanks a lot for the help.
- # [04:02] <heycam> no problem!
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- # [14:01] <annevk> Hixie: ah yeah, I abuse @WHATWG now and then
- # [14:03] <annevk> Hixie: my excuse has been that the idea was that it could be used for whatever, but maybe we should keep it scoped nowadays
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- # [17:01] <annevk> Man... I'm almost done with annotating parse errors...
- # [17:02] <annevk> No fun was had
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- # [19:00] <Hixie> annevk: i don't have any problem with you abusing @whatwg, i trust your judgement
- # [19:00] <Hixie> annevk: i can't help but wonder how many of @whatwg's subscribers really care about the TAG though :-)
- # [19:00] <Hixie> then again, i'm baffled by why _you_ care, so... :-P
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- # [21:18] <Hixie> hey bruce is asking me what my biggest mistake was for some article he's writing -- anyone got any suggestions? (i've already listed pushState, appcache, postMessage()'s security model...)
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- # [21:18] <Ms2ger> Margin collapsing?
- # [21:19] <Ms2ger> The HTMLWG?
- # [21:19] <WeirdAl> Hixie - listening to developers for Acid 3 tests?
- # [21:19] * WeirdAl being one of those idiot developers
- # [21:19] <Hixie> ooh, hadn't tought about margin collapsing and acid3, i was focused on the spec
- # [21:19] <Ms2ger> Acid2 and <p><table>
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- # [21:24] <Hixie> I actually think <p><table> is fine, personally, but yeah, the acid tests in general
- # [21:25] <Ms2ger> You think the one quirk in the parser is fine?! :)
- # [21:25] <annevk> Hixie: localStorage?
- # [21:25] <WeirdAl> compared to the horrors that the acid tests required, Ms2ger? Yeah.
- # [21:25] <Hixie> i think the quirk sucks, but i think not implying </p> at <table> is what sucks, not the fact that we have a quirk so much :-)
- # [21:25] <Ms2ger> Oh, SVG fonts
- # [21:25] <Hixie> annevk: oh yeah, the storage mutex, good call
- # [21:26] <annevk> Hixie did not do SVG fonts :-)
- # [21:26] <Hixie> i did in acid3
- # [21:26] <annevk> ooh
- # [21:26] <annevk> Hixie: SGML comments ;-)
- # [21:26] <Hixie> was that acid2 or 3?
- # [21:26] <Ms2ger> Oh man
- # [21:26] <Hixie> 2, rigt?
- # [21:26] <annevk> yeah
- # [21:26] <Ms2ger> 2, I think
- # [21:27] <annevk> ah, Ms2ger had margin collapsing :)
- # [21:28] <annevk> That's a long list, why do we trust this guy again?
- # [21:28] <Hixie> nobody else is willing to do it?
- # [21:28] <Ms2ger> Why, prefer the CSSWG?
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- # [21:28] <annevk> Ms2ger: uhuh
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- # [21:31] <annevk> looking forward to reading that
- # [21:32] <annevk> Hixie: I guess that's part of it; would be so great to have actual competition rather than a copy & paste lobby
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- # [22:48] <annevk> MikeSmith: what does https://twitter.com/katoken0215/status/287224151620587520 say?
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- # [22:53] <zewt> that you're a woman, for starters...
- # [22:54] <annevk> whoa
- # [22:54] <annevk> TR/domcore looks ugly
- # [22:55] <annevk> dglazkov: please link to dom.spec.whatwg.org instead from the Shadow DOM spec
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- # [22:57] <annevk> dglazkov: when does redistribution happen? how is this represented in implementations? is the DOM sprinkled with special nodes?
- # [22:58] <annevk> zewt: if that's all it says it's not very interesting
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- # [23:13] <zewt> annevk: describing what you said in your last post, i think
- # [23:14] <annevk> New Zealand though?
- # [23:19] * weinig is now known as weinig|away
- # [23:21] <zewt> annevk: apparently he thought you were a european woman
- # [23:22] <zewt> https://twitter.com/katoken0215/status/287320663876833280
- # [23:22] <zewt> (he deleted the last one, heh)
- # [23:24] <yroc> Hi, wondering why the leading newline following an opening <pre> tag is stripped...
- # [23:24] <yroc> Is it to prevent the opening <pre> tag from displacing the initial line of preformatted text.
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- # [23:26] <annevk> yroc: legacy thing from SGML iirc
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- # [23:27] <annevk> yroc: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/appendix/notes.html#notes-line-breaks
- # [23:27] <annevk> wycats_: you around?
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- # [23:30] <annevk> Anyone else know if it gets any better than http://api.jquery.com/on/ ?
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- # [23:32] <annevk> whoa
- # [23:32] <annevk> http://zeptojs.com/ document.write is still recommended anno 2012
- # [23:32] <yroc> annevk: Right. And now, with the white-space processing model, *all* newlines are ignored when white-space: normal;
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- # [23:33] <annevk> yroc: right, so the quirk is only kept for <pre> and <textarea>, where it's observable
- # [23:33] * smaug is now known as smaug____
- # [23:33] <annevk> well, more directly observable
- # [23:33] <yroc> Exactly, where white-space: pre;
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- # [23:34] <yroc> annevk: But *why* is the quirk kept?
- # [23:34] <annevk> yroc: because otherwise sites will render differently
- # [23:34] <zewt> the opposite of "on()" is "off()"? really? heh
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- # [23:35] <annevk> zewt: I wonder if that's actually used
- # [23:35] <yroc> annevk: if the initial newline following <pre> were not stripped, sites would render differently?
- # [23:35] <annevk> yroc: right
- # [23:36] <yroc> Uh, can you give an example?
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- # [23:36] <annevk> yroc: you would get a blank line
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- # [23:37] <yroc> Oh, I see what you mean. I thought you meant different browsers would render differently (an interop problem). Yes, exactly, you'd get a blank line
- # [23:37] <annevk> yroc: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/text.html seems to rely on it for instance
- # [23:37] <annevk> yroc: well we don't want to remove it because then you'd get an interop problem
- # [23:37] <annevk> yroc: and we'd break sites
- # [23:38] <zewt> annevk: doesn't look like it's actually a very nice interface (off(), i mean)
- # [23:39] <yroc> yroc: but isn't it a useful thing to keep? Doesn't it allow you to start the first line of preformatted text on a "fresh" line without the starting <pre> tag displacing the content?
- # [23:39] <annevk> zewt: I agree, I'm open to suggestions
- # [23:39] <zewt> since you still have to have a reference to the listener function, so it has the same problems as addEventListener(x, func.bind(something))
- # [23:39] <yroc> Oops, I meant annevk!
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- # [23:39] <annevk> yroc: it's being kept
- # [23:39] <zewt> nicer to return an object representing the observation, eg. x = event.addEventListener(...); x.remove();
- # [23:40] <zewt> i seem to recall prototype has something like that (been a while though)
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- # [23:40] <annevk> with s/event/element/?
- # [23:40] <zewt> yeah
- # [23:41] <annevk> we also have the setInterval API we could mimic...
- # [23:41] <zewt> http://prototypejs.org/doc/latest/dom/Event/on/index.html
- # [23:41] <yroc> annevk: Yes, I know, but I'm just saying there's a good reason, which I'm trying to nail down (for example, "without this behavior, you'd get an undesirable blank line at the beginning of your preformatted content."
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- # [23:42] <yroc> annevk: Would you say that's the true reason?
- # [23:42] <annevk> zewt: could you add that to https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16491 perhaps? I guess I'm gonna try to make some progress on that bug. It's been well over a year now...
- # [23:42] <zewt> these days i just pre-bind my event handlers (this.click_handler = this.click_handler.bind(this)), which is a little wordy but works fine in practice
- # [23:43] <zewt> not at home, i'll add it if i remember when i get back
- # [23:45] <zewt> lack of a capture argument to all of those apis is also annoying
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- # [23:52] <annevk> well if nobody is using that...
- # [23:52] <annevk> we can do all kinds of things, e.g. make all events bubble for the purposes of this new API
- # [23:53] <annevk> I actually thought jQuery did that, but that page does not describe that behavior
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- # [23:55] <annevk> http://prototypejs.org/doc/latest/dom/Event/Handler/new/index.html is an interesting API too
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- # [23:55] <annevk> although it should implicitly call start
- # [23:56] <Hixie> yroc: generally if changing something would break web pages (as in this case), we don't even bother to look for other reasons :-)
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- # [23:58] <zewt> yeah i'd much prefer an api that always bubbles, i can filter out the bubble phase easily enough if i really want that
- # [23:59] <zewt> personally the most annoying subtle weirdness of dom events for me is how capturing listeners aren't run before non-capturing listeners during the "on target" phase (or whatever it's called)
- # Session Close: Sat Jan 05 00:00:01 2013
The end :)