/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-01-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Jan 05 00:00:01 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <annevk> listeners are in adding order
  4. # [00:01] <zewt> but intuitively capturing listeners are before non-capturing listeners, but that's not actually the case when dispatching to the target itself
  5. # [00:02] <yroc> Hixie: I see. But incidentally, I think it's actually a good thing that the initial newline is stripped for the reason I outlined above.
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  7. # [00:02] <zewt> anyway, fixing that even in a different api is probably not worth the added complexity of the subtle difference (and probably other weirdness as a result)
  8. # [00:02] <Hixie> yroc: probably, yeah
  9. # [00:03] <annevk> zewt: well we can do all kinds of stuff, e.g. let the developer completely control independently whether capture/bubble/target are included or not
  10. # [00:04] <annevk> zewt: but whether that's needed... it seems most cases are about target+bubbling, preferably with event delegation via selector
  11. # [00:04] <zewt> maybe i just do weird things, i dunno
  12. # [00:05] <yroc> Hixie: In fact, I think it would be good to strip the newline after a child <code> starting tag...
  13. # [00:05] <yroc> , so the author can start the first line flush with the rest of the code (just a suggestion!)
  14. # [00:05] <yroc> Hixie: Wondering why do we an element to represent a word wrap opportunity?
  15. # [00:05] <zewt> sometimes i'll put a capturing listener on a tree to grab an event, do something funky with it, then re-dispatch it (perhaps at a later time), eg. grabbing onclick and delaying the actual onclick by 0.5s to allow an animation to happen
  16. # [00:06] <yroc> Hixie: Why isn't zero width space sufficient?
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  18. # [00:06] <annevk> zewt: you can do the same with preventDefault()
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  20. # [00:07] <zewt> no, because i don't want any non-capturing event listeners to run (since often the actual behavior of the button or whatever is a scripted event, not the default)
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  22. # [00:08] <yroc> Hixie: U+200B
  23. # [00:08] <zewt> anyway, it can be dealt with, it just means guaranteeing that the element where the capturing event listener lives is *above* any nodes that might receive the event later, to guarantee the capturing listener happens first--not a huge deal, just annoying when i forget
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  26. # [00:10] <annevk> given that none of the libraries have it and pretty much no developer I have talked to really gets the final argument of addEventListener, I'm sceptical about the new API catering for it, but who knows
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  29. # [00:11] <tantek> why not leave it out until someone needs it in a real world situation?
  30. # [00:11] <jamesr> the one that you just say "false" for because firefox complains if you don't?
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  32. # [00:12] <annevk> tantek: well zewt had such a situation apparently ;)
  33. # [00:12] <annevk> jamesr: does it still? :/
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  36. # [00:13] <annevk> hopefully once those new IDL bindings land that will no longer happen
  37. # [00:13] <jamesr> oh! guess it doesn't any more
  38. # [00:14] <annevk> since I started writing the core bit of Events it has been optional per spec
  39. # [00:15] <annevk> seems optional in Nightly 20something at least
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  42. # [00:19] <zewt> annevk: i think a new events API should absolutely support capturing, but it'd be fine if it was an options dictionary item instead
  43. # [00:20] <annevk> dunno
  44. # [00:20] <zewt> capturing isn't used a lot but when you need it, it's really helpful
  45. # [00:21] <zewt> afk, heading home
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  67. # [01:05] <Hixie> yroc: i seem to recall there was some difference, but the real answer is probably just because it was already implemented, so why not
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  73. # [01:16] <zewt> annevk: random thought, but i wonder if this could just be element.addEventListener("click", function(e) { }, { options }) when the third argument is a dictionary instead of a boolean, possible options are "selector" and "capture", and have "alwaysBubble" be an option (instead of having a separate function just for that)
  74. # [01:18] <zewt> also i wonder if making addEventListener return an object or a timeout-like id would be web-compatible (can't imagine why not, but it's such a critical API that who knows)
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  80. # [01:37] <jamesr> if we do that i'd really like there to be a way to specify some filters on the sorts of events - i.e. say which key events you care about for keyboard-related ones, specifying which modifiers you care about
  81. # [01:37] <jamesr> so the browser can know up-front whether to bother doing all the setup of firing a DOM event or if the listener is just going to toss it
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  83. # [01:44] <yroc> Hixie: Interesting though because <wbr> is not in the 4.01 spec as far as I can see, nor in Berners-Lee RFC 1866 or W3C's 3.2 spec.
  84. # [01:44] <Hixie> yeah we didn't pay much attention to the earlier specs when writing the current one
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  86. # [01:44] <Hixie> more what browsers implemented
  87. # [01:44] <yroc> Hixie: I have found references to it dating back to the late 90s, so it's obviously been around
  88. # [01:45] <yroc> I see.
  89. # [01:45] <yroc> So that was the driving force then. The fact that it was implemented in the major browsers, so it was just spec'ed
  90. # [01:46] <Hixie> that's why it was specced as required to implement, but the reason it was speced as valid to use (a completely different question) is more likely to be that it provided a valid use case (albeit one that's no more useful than the zwsp character, iirc)
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  93. # [01:49] <yroc> But there's really such thing as "required to implement," is there? I mean the vendors can do what they want, no?
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  95. # [01:49] <Hixie> well true
  96. # [01:49] <Hixie> in practice what the spec says is required to implement is what they will implement anyway
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  98. # [01:50] <yroc> ...or have already implemented! :-) Gotcha.
  99. # [01:50] <Hixie> but it also says what a new browser would have to implement to be compatible with the web
  100. # [01:52] <yroc> "Compatible with the web?" -- what do you mean by "web" here?
  101. # [01:52] <Hixie> deployed web content
  102. # [01:53] <yroc> So compatible with what web authors are producing.
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  109. # [02:04] <Hixie> right
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  146. # [02:45] <Hixie> ok, i'm reopening all the whatwg later and remind bugs
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  150. # [02:52] <jamesr> new year = it's later now?
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  153. # [02:58] <Hixie> yeah
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  214. # [04:54] <Hixie> annevk: did you fiele a bug for https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20535#c3 ?
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  379. # [12:41] <annevk> Hixie: will do
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  383. # [12:58] <annevk> done
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  387. # [13:03] <annevk> jamesr: interesting idea
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  404. # [14:05] <annevk> smaug____: I suggest looking at some popular JavaScript libraries if you want to understand "why"
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  406. # [14:23] <smaug____> annevk: that isn't why
  407. # [14:24] <annevk> it is though
  408. # [14:24] <smaug____> jQuery has its API just because someone has decided to have such
  409. # [14:24] <smaug____> I'd like to understand why jQuery has the API
  410. # [14:26] <smaug____> I don't have too much against jQuery's APIs, but need to be careful since it tends to slow down things (either it is jQuery implementation or the API design)
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  412. # [14:49] <annevk> every developer I talk to wants selector-based filtering
  413. # [14:50] <annevk> you make a good point about when to do said filtering though
  414. # [14:51] <annevk> pretty sure we can do whatever is most performant there
  415. # [14:52] <smaug____> well, it affects to behavior
  416. # [14:52] <smaug____> I wonder what jQuery does
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  418. # [14:55] <annevk> oops, it seems it filters based on event.target
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  420. # [14:56] <smaug____> oh
  421. # [14:56] <smaug____> that is somewhat odd
  422. # [14:56] <annevk> nah, see e.g. http://icant.co.uk/sandbox/eventdelegation/
  423. # [14:57] <smaug____> other thing possibly useful would be event target groups, so that one could add and remove listeners from many targets at once
  424. # [14:58] <annevk> that's basically this
  425. # [14:58] <smaug____> it is not
  426. # [14:58] <annevk> you register on a common parent and select the targets with a selector
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  428. # [14:59] <smaug____> this requires common parent and all
  429. # [14:59] <annevk> given that events dispatch in a tree, that's a given
  430. # [14:59] <annevk> but maybe the reverse is all we need...
  431. # [15:00] <annevk> listen to events for elements that match these selectors?
  432. # [15:00] <annevk> not sure that quite works given text nodes and such though
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  434. # [15:01] <smaug____> "given that events dispatch in a tree"... I was thinking something more generic which can handle several DOM trees at once, and wouldn't actually be restricted to DOM trees, but would work with all the event targets
  435. # [15:02] <smaug____> hmm, selector matching on XHR doesn't quite make sense
  436. # [15:03] <smaug____> is jquery's 'on' node only thing
  437. # [15:04] <smaug____> oh dear, it has all different thing for "Ajax"
  438. # [15:06] <annevk> yeah, selector-based matching only makes sense for Elements
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  440. # [15:06] <annevk> well, for RootNode I suppose
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  442. # [15:07] * smaug____ doesn't understand the word "delegation" with event handling
  443. # [15:08] <smaug____> it is just normal event handling
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  446. # [15:09] <smaug____> the fact that listener isn't on the target or that target checking happens within the listner does not mean any kind of "delegation"
  447. # [15:18] <annevk> I think the way it's viewed is that you delegate the work to a listener registered on a parent
  448. # [15:18] <annevk> I'm not sure it's very interesting to debate terminology at this point though. It's called delegation by the developer community...
  449. # [15:19] <smaug____> yeah, and I just don't understand what you actually delegate. You just do stuff in an ancestor's listener :)
  450. # [15:20] <smaug____> well, delegation isn't a good term IMO, so I don't expect it to end up to specs
  451. # [15:20] <smaug____> we need something more exact, if anything
  452. # [15:20] <smaug____> but lunch time
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  455. # [15:28] <annevk> the spec will just define the API, no buzzwords...
  456. # [15:29] <annevk> but at this point it's not really clear what requirements the API should meet
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  464. # [16:30] <smaug____> yeah, need to know the requirements first
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  499. # [18:32] <zewt> smaug____: "delegation" just refers to the approach (handling events for dynamic trees by listening up the tree and filtering), and it's the best term there will ever be merely because it's what everyone uses and understands
  500. # [18:32] <zewt> trying to rename something after a term is widely accepted is never the right thing to do
  501. # [18:34] <smaug____> well, I don't know how accepted that is
  502. # [18:35] <smaug____> anyhow, if it doesn't end up to any spec, as I hope, I don't care :)
  503. # [18:35] <zewt> it is in my experience
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  505. # [18:36] <smaug____> Firefox UI is all about event "delegation", but "delegation" isn't really used anywhere
  506. # [18:36] <smaug____> (I know, that is not web development)
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  511. # [18:58] <zewt> oops, tried to put a million event listeners on window and chrome is upset at me
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  513. # [19:01] <smaug____> :)
  514. # [19:01] <smaug____> zewt: doing performance testing?
  515. # [19:03] <smaug____> (for some reason chrome's event dispatch speed has regressed significantly)
  516. # [19:03] <smaug____> (at least in my tests)
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  519. # [19:08] <zewt> smaug____: just sanity checking the "event filtering" thing on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16491 (which as I suspected, seems to not be useful, at least at the dispatch phase)
  520. # [19:09] <zewt> also ... wow, webkit is initKeyboardEvent and gecko is initKeyEvent and there's no overlap? seriously?
  521. # [19:09] <smaug____> Gecko has DOM 0 key events, webkit has some obsolete D3E draft key events, IIRC
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  523. # [19:13] <annevk> o_O
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  558. # [21:31] <Yuhong> "And we provide the longest support life cycle of any browser, allowing you to upgrade your browser at your own pace."
  559. # [21:31] <Yuhong> From http://blogs.windows.com/ie/b/ie/archive/2012/12/13/ten-reasons-why-internet-explorer-10-is-best-for-business.aspx
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  566. # [22:12] <zewt> one might possibly refer to that as "spin"
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  576. # [22:32] <Yuhong> <zewt> one might possibly refer to that as "spin"
  577. # [22:33] <Yuhong> Not my point, My point is they are actually touting that they support all IE versions for the 10+ years life of a Windows version.
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  601. # Session Close: Sun Jan 06 00:00:01 2013

The end :)