/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-01-10 / end

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40. # [01:05] <zewt> things that are less than confidence-inspiring: http://joker.com has a login form on the front non-https page
41. # [01:08] <tantek> it's not supposed to be funny?
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80. # [02:25] <MikeSmith> hober: the IRC server was upgraded a few days agod
81. # [02:26] <MikeSmith> to ngIRCd
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83. # [02:27] <MikeSmith> if you're see flakiness, please report it so the systems team can investigate
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85. # [02:29] <a-ja> it's all the new users....bailing from Messenger :)
86. # [02:29] <MikeSmith> hober: oh I think what you're seeing might not have anything to do with the IRC server upgrade at all but instead this: "Connectivity problems due to a bad link between MIT and Level3"
87. # [02:30] <MikeSmith> that connectivity problem has been going on for several days now
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89. # [02:30] <MikeSmith> a-ja: :-)
90. # [02:31] <a-ja> MikeSmith: just heard that on CNN and haven't read about it yet....wassup?
91. # [02:32] <MikeSmith> a-ja: I don't know the details at all. Just know it's been at least 2-3 days now going one
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95. # [02:37] <abarth> Hixie: in WebKit, window.document isn't visible across origins
96. # [02:38] <Hixie> abarth: well, it is, but in those cases it's ok
97. # [02:39] <abarth> in which cases is it visible across origins?
98. # [02:39] <a-ja> MikeSmith: ahh...forcing em on to skype instead
99. # [02:40] <Hixie> abarth: take a same-domain iframe's document, then set your own document.domain.
100. # [02:40] <Hixie> the document you took is now cross-origin, but you can still access it
101. # [02:40] <abarth> oh, I wasn't covering document.domain
102. # [02:40] <abarth> document.domain is dumb
103. # [02:40] <abarth> and isn't interoperable
104. # [02:41] <abarth> there's nothing special about document in that regard
105. # [02:41] <MikeSmith> a-ja: ah you mean Microsoft has shut down Messenger?
106. # [02:41] <abarth> the same is true for any other property of window
107. # [02:41] <abarth> or any other property of anything for that mater
108. # [02:41] <abarth> matter
109. # [02:41] <a-ja> MikeSmith: in March
110. # [02:41] <abarth> (except the ones I listed in my email)
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112. # [02:43] <JonathanNeal> Great article Bruce Lawson, if you're out there. http://html5doctor.com/interview-with-ian-hickson-html-editor/
113. # [02:43] <Hixie> abarth: yup
114. # [02:43] <JonathanNeal> Hixie: you were good too :)
115. # [02:44] <Hixie> heh
116. # [02:45] <a-ja> why do we trust that guy again? heh
117. # [02:46] <a-ja> good interview
118. # [02:46] <JonathanNeal> It was a really great article. Hixie, if the web doesn't work out for us, I will read your column in the printed press.
119. # [02:46] <Hixie> heh
120. # [02:46] <Hixie> journalist was one of the things i wanted to be as a kid
121. # [02:47] <Hixie> (spec writer wasn't. i became a spec writer long before it was what i wanted to be.)
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123. # [02:47] <JonathanNeal> Now you're good at both. Thanks for sharing that content.
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134. # [03:03] <MikeSmith> they should run an article where Hixie is the one who interviews somebody and asks the questions
135. # [03:03] <MikeSmith> Hixie interviews abarth
136. # [03:03] <MikeSmith> or bz
137. # [03:05] <a-ja> or a11y folks
138. # [03:08] <MikeSmith> speaking of abarth I see WebKit will be moving HTML parsing of the main thread to speed up parsing on mobile
139. # [03:08] <MikeSmith> http://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2013-January/023271.html
140. # [03:11] <abarth> yes
141. # [03:11] <abarth> although we're going to start with a slightly different approach that used in mozilla
142. # [03:12] <abarth> (just moving the tokenizer, not the whole thing)
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145. # [03:16] <MikeSmith> abarth: you working on the implementation again this time too, or just Eric?
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161. # [03:55] <MikeSmith> Hixie: in case you're curious, XSLT WG published a "XSLT and XQuery Serialization 3.0" that defines XHTML and HTML output methods, normatively referencing the HTML spec
162. # [03:55] <MikeSmith> well, the HTML5 spec
163. # [03:55] <MikeSmith> though also the HTML4 spec
164. # [03:56] <MikeSmith> and not matching the definition for space characters in the HTML spec
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187. # [05:34] <abarth> MikeSmith: yes, eric, tonyg, and myself
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189. # [05:46] <MikeSmith> abarth: ah ok
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193. # [06:24] <zewt> i forget how impossible wikipedia is to read without a style to hide the endless gross mass of superscripts
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241. # [09:03] <hsivonen> Hixie: that we now have exceptionally good interop for HTML parsing is not a permission to start breaking that interop!
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278. # [10:36] <krijn_> Are there any WebVTT implementations out there already?
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286. # [10:54] <krijn_> http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/Graphics/VideoCaptions/ - IE10, Chrome en Safari, check!
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301. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> https://code.google.com/p/web-page-replay/ is interesting
302. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> "Record web pages using a local DNS and local HTTP/HTTPS servers which act as proxies and record performance metrics in addition to the actual resources."
303. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> "Play back recorded pages again with simulated performance characteristics."
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306. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> call-flow diagrams https://code.google.com/p/web-page-replay/wiki/ArchitecturalOverview
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323. # [12:11] <Stevef> krijn_: http://www.w3.org/community/texttracks/2012/08/23/webvtt-support-in-browsers/ may be helpful
324. # [12:11] <krijn_> Jep, just found that, thanks
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330. # [12:17] <SimonSapin> gsnedders: great news for html5lib on Python 3. It looks like two separate code bases, do you expect to release two tarballs?
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334. # [12:21] <SimonSapin> gsnedders: or maybe a single tarball with a single setup.py that picks between src2 and src3?
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348. # [13:19] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, btw, from __future__ import unicode_literals is nice
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354. # [13:47] * Ms2ger never realized how true wordpress's "Some HTML is ok" was
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356. # [13:48] <annevk> I wonder though
357. # [13:48] <annevk> Impostor, glitch in the matrix, potential comeback?
358. # [13:50] <hsivonen> I was quite surprised to see someone claiming to be Mark Pilgrim post
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365. # [13:52] <MikeSmith> post where?
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367. # [13:55] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, Hixie's interview
368. # [13:56] <Ms2ger> http://html5doctor.com/interview-with-ian-hickson-html-editor/
369. # [13:57] <MikeSmith> ah ok
370. # [13:58] * [[zzz]] is now known as [[zz]]
371. # [13:59] <Ms2ger> What was the chatter about a secret testing meeting about, btw?
372. # [13:59] <darobin_> it's not secret, it just hasn't been announced....
373. # [13:59] * darobin_ is now known as darobin
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375. # [14:00] <Ms2ger> Go on... :)
376. # [14:01] <darobin> Ms2ger: from what I gather 29/01, West Coast somewhere
377. # [14:01] <darobin> that's *all* I know :)
378. # [14:01] <SimonSapin> Mark Pilgrim’s post if dated 2007
379. # [14:02] <SimonSapin> is* dated
380. # [14:02] <Ms2ger> January 8, 2013 at 5:05 pm #
381. # [14:02] <Ms2ger> Can someone point me to where \s in JS regices is defined?
382. # [14:02] <SimonSapin> ah, I was looking at http://blog.whatwg.org/the-longdesc-lottery linked from the interview
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385. # [14:05] <hasather> Ms2ger: http://www.ecma-international.org/ecma-262/5.1/#sec-15.10.2.12
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387. # [14:06] <Ms2ger> hasather, thanks
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391. # [14:10] <Ms2ger> What does [0-9]{4,} mean?
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393. # [14:13] <darobin> Ms2ger: four or more digits
394. # [14:13] <darobin> hi romainhuet__ :)
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396. # [14:14] <Ms2ger> darobin, good :)
397. # [14:15] <darobin> I wonder if TC39 can be convinced to improve JS regexes
398. # [14:17] <annevk> they are improving them
399. # [14:17] <darobin> ah, good to know
400. # [14:17] <darobin> annevk: you have a pointer?
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406. # [14:21] <annevk> darobin: hmm, at least for the i18n work there's talk about it
407. # [14:21] <darobin> ah yes, I've heard mentions of making \w i18n friendly and that sort of stuff
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409. # [14:21] * Ms2ger cries
410. # [14:22] <darobin> but I'd like things like lookbehinds and such that are a weird omission now
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415. # [14:24] <annevk> \w as well?
416. # [14:24] <annevk> oh well
417. # [14:24] <annevk> JavaScript is weird
418. # [14:25] <annevk> can't find where I read this :/
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424. # [14:29] <annevk> I wish I was in the same timezone as dglazkov for a while
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426. # [14:29] <Ms2ger> Sounds like you should find an employer in the Bay Area ;)
427. # [14:30] <annevk> Who says I haven't? :p
428. # [14:30] <Ms2ger> Problem solved, then :)
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430. # [14:32] <annevk> So given my email from last night, I realize that https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/shadow/index.html#events-that-are-always-stopped does not make sense.
431. # [14:33] <annevk> That is, what about the capture phase?
432. # [14:34] <annevk> dglazkov calls it "refactoring" but I've the feeling what we lack here is a coherent design :/
433. # [14:34] <annevk> Maybe I should just ignore the shadow DOM for now and focus on the HTML spec?
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435. # [14:39] <annevk> Filed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20633 for some of the issues
436. # [14:43] <darobin> it is customary when designing something around the shadow DOM to come up with a broken design of some kind
437. # [14:43] <darobin> dglazkov is nothing if not traditional
438. # [14:43] <annevk> A broken design is okay, but an unexplained design is not.
439. # [14:44] <annevk> At least not for my purposes...
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443. # [14:51] <hsivonen> annevk: do you have an opinion on <x-map> vs. <select is=map> vs. <select/map> ?
444. # [14:51] <annevk> hsivonen: they all suck
445. # [14:51] <hsivonen> yeah
446. # [14:53] <annevk> <x-map> would make it hard to make custom components out of <td> and such, <select is=map> is kinda weird, <select/map> I suppose is the least weird and the best parser-wise (although it would require changes to the parser)
447. # [14:53] <Ms2ger> Don't tell that to hsivo... Oh
448. # [14:53] <annevk> heh
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450. # [14:54] <annevk> Not necessarily best parser-wise as least changes to the parser, but most flexibility for web developers...
451. # [14:55] <annevk> Well, <select is=map> does that too
452. # [14:55] <darobin> but it's verbose
453. # [14:56] <Ms2ger> Won't anybody thnk f te chrcters?
454. # [14:57] <annevk> Can't avoid verbose while caring about parser compatibility I think... Unless maybe we parse <x-...> similar to <script>?
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456. # [14:59] <hsivonen> I think I care more about infoset compat for server-side munging than about parser compat
457. # [15:00] <hsivonen> so stuff that would involve non-NCName local names in server-side systems are not OK from my POV
458. # [15:01] <hsivonen> that is, if you can't use server-side XSLT to augment a doc that says <select/map>, then we shouldn't have <select/map>
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460. # [15:02] <annevk> Isn't it unfair to consider those systems immutable? Just imagine what that would do to CSS, CSS is designed around parser changes...
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464. # [15:04] <hsivonen> annevk: I was talking about data model
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466. # [15:05] <hsivonen> annevk: that's my point: revising the data model in all server-side systems is a big deal
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468. # [15:05] <hsivonen> annevk: even if parsers and serializers are off-the-shelf in principle
469. # [15:05] <annevk> Ah yeah, dunno what the localName would be for select/map
470. # [15:05] <hsivonen> annevk: CSS didn't assume a stable data model to begin with
471. # [15:06] <annevk> (Which is painful for CSSOM designers...)
472. # [15:06] <hsivonen> <template> breaks the data model on the client
473. # [15:06] <hsivonen> but on the server you can pretend it doesn't
474. # [15:06] <hsivonen> not so with select/map as a local name
475. # [15:07] <hsivonen> unless you want some Uhhhhhh notation
476. # [15:07] <Ms2ger> <select/map></select/map>?
477. # [15:08] <hsivonen> that reads almost as badly as <title/foo/
478. # [15:08] <hsivonen> the SGML <title/foo/ that is
479. # [15:08] <annevk> I do anticipate allowing <x-...> will make a even bigger mess of the web as that will be sprinkled all over the place...
480. # [15:09] <hsivonen> annevk: well, <x-...> can be deployed even if browser devs say “no”…
481. # [15:09] <annevk> At that point the last bit about shared semantics in HTML is thrown overboard and you really need a browser-like engine to understand what's going on.
482. # [15:09] <annevk> hsivonen: yeah, and they have of course to some extent.
483. # [15:10] <annevk> hsivonen: just when you sanction that and let it pass through validation, libraries will use it, developers will use them throughout their site, and reusable HTML is lost to the world.
484. # [15:11] <annevk> (just thinking out loud)
485. # [15:11] <annevk> (not necessarily loud :-))
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487. # [15:12] <hsivonen> I’m in general pretty unhappy that right after we reached interop with IE10 shipping people come up with multiple parser change ideas from <template> to void <menuitem> to <select/map>
488. # [15:13] <annevk> I'm with Hixie though. The whole point of interoperable parsing is that it makes it easier to make specific changes.
489. # [15:14] <annevk> That's why we document features of the past and reimplement features of the past. To make it easier to tweak them.
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493. # [15:18] <hsivonen> In the interview, Hixie answered someone that stuff is going to stick if it is in 2 browsers
494. # [15:18] <hsivonen> I guess that doesn't apply to e.g. <command> parsing/serialization
495. # [15:18] <hsivonen> so “all bets are off”?
496. # [15:19] <hsivonen> (or Hixie should have said “in 2 browsers and used in content”)
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498. # [15:20] <annevk> I think that's what he meant
499. # [15:20] <Ms2ger> Well, I guess it applies in the sense that you shouldn't bet on it being changeable
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503. # [15:22] <annevk> Everyone had some variant of <basefont> too, yet we managed to remove most of it
504. # [15:22] <annevk> In the case of <Basefont> the parser weirdness is still there though I believe
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506. # [15:23] <hsivonen> annevk: yes, <basefont> and <bgsound> are in the parser as void
507. # [15:23] <hsivonen> annevk: and it would not be a win to make the parser unaware of them
508. # [15:24] <annevk> hsivonen: agreed, I meant that we removed HTMLBaseFontElement at some point
509. # [15:24] <annevk> hsivonen: even though it had two implementations
510. # [15:24] <hsivonen> IE and Opera?
511. # [15:25] <Ms2ger> Probably us, actually
512. # [15:26] <annevk> Gecko at least.
513. # [15:26] <Ms2ger> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=518110
514. # [15:27] <annevk> I wonder if later on nsIDOMHTMLHeadElement.profile was removed now binary compat is no longer necessary?
515. # [15:28] <Ms2ger> Yeah, I believe so
516. # [15:28] <annevk> k
517. # [15:29] <annevk> man
518. # [15:29] <annevk> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3875#c77
519. # [15:30] <Ms2ger> "It's not standards compliant, it's deprecated. We are not required to implement deprecated features"
520. # [15:30] <annevk> "As font, they liked to have something that presented better to students, Comic Sans MS" "I discover the BASEFONT tag at W3schools" "it works in IE, but not in Mozilla" "I was forced to throw Mozilla from the PC and work just with IE"
521. # [15:30] <annevk> 10/10 would read again
522. # [15:31] <Ms2ger> And there's more
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525. # [15:40] <annevk> I hope that not exposing Node's cross-origin catches on
526. # [15:41] <annevk> (disregarding document.domain for now)
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532. # [15:53] <hsivonen> what’s the correct term for the thing that Rails used to use the snowman for?
533. # [15:54] <hsivonen> it’s not “UTF-8 canary”, but it’s a similar term
534. # [15:54] <hsivonen> what is it?
535. # [15:54] <hsivonen> my memory fails me
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537. # [15:54] <hsivonen> it’s “UTF-8 (noun)”
538. # [15:54] <hsivonen> but which noun
539. # [15:55] <MikeSmith> not talisman?
540. # [15:56] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: no. it has a function
541. # [15:56] <hsivonen> oh well. I’ll try to write my way around my lack of proper terminology
542. # [15:56] <hsivonen> two functions even
543. # [15:57] <annevk> utf-8 parameter?
544. # [15:57] <annevk> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4104474/rails-3-utf-8-query-string-showing-up-in-url
545. # [15:57] <annevk> utf8*
546. # [15:59] <annevk> hsivonen: https://github.com/rails/rails/commit/c6160898c83107ba63017ad2a8b3878733267136
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548. # [16:03] <hsivonen> annevk: I saw the patch by wycats_. Too bad the commit message didn’t have the term I was looking for.
549. # [16:03] <hsivonen> annevk: I also tried to find it on wycats_'s blog and on StackOverflow
550. # [16:03] <hsivonen> no success
551. # [16:03] <hsivonen> I’m very sure I am not imagining things and there is a term for that thing
552. # [16:03] <annevk> from what I can find about the parameter there's not really a name, but maybe someone coined one?
553. # [16:04] <annevk> something it's called utf8 enforcer param
554. # [16:04] <annevk> somewhere*
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556. # [16:05] <annevk> not many hits for that though
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558. # [16:08] <hsivonen> FWIW, the context was https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=234628#c63
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560. # [16:18] <annevk> Less encoding menu ++
561. # [16:19] * romainhuet__ is now known as romainhuet
562. # [16:20] <romainhuet> darobin: Hey! Just noticed your message I was away :)
563. # [16:20] * Ms2ger waves at darobin
564. # [16:21] <darobin> :)
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567. # [16:22] <Ms2ger> darobin, also, ugh.
568. # [16:24] <jgraham> darobin: So, what's the difference between secret and unannounced? :)
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571. # [16:26] <darobin> hsivonen: I thought it was UTF8 Canary
572. # [16:26] <darobin> jgraham: secret is properly planned but kept to a gang; unannounced is not even planned out
573. # [16:27] <darobin> jgraham: note though it's not a really technical meeting, it's about getting commitments from companies to provide resources for testing
574. # [16:27] <jgraham> Also, I think one lesson from web components is that you shouldn't overconstrain things like identifiers just because you don't have a use case today
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576. # [16:28] <jgraham> Lots of possible solutions fail because they require non NCName tags/attributes
577. # [16:29] <annevk_> NCName is a disaster
578. # [16:29] * annevk_ is now known as annevk
579. # [16:30] <hsivonen> darobin: ok. maybe canary was the noun I was looking for after all
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584. # [16:33] <annevk> dglazkov: XBL2 misses quite a few lessons from HTML not only because it's a XML vocab :-)
585. # [16:33] <darobin> hsivonen: actually common usage seems to be "unicode canary"
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589. # [16:49] <annevk> whoa Chrome already ships with some kind of <template> support?
590. # [16:51] <Ms2ger> Chrome shipping something half-baked? They wouldn't!
591. # [16:51] <annevk> false alarm it seems
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613. # [17:41] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: from __future__ import unicode_literals and b"" helps iff we drop support for earlier than 2.6, which I dunno about.
614. # [17:41] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: I dunno, I may well just make it so setup.py uses awkwardduet (a continuation of 3to2) to build the src2.
615. # [17:42] <SimonSapin> gsnedders: something like distribute’s use_2to3?
616. # [17:42] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: Exactly.
617. # [17:42] <gsnedders> Just, like, use_3to2 :)
618. # [17:43] <gsnedders> But it can't use the actual original 3to2, because we cause that to throw an exception.
619. # [17:44] <SimonSapin> I didn’t know distribute had use_3to2 built-in like it has use_2to3
620. # [17:44] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: I've got no strong opinion on what to do, for distribution. What I will probably do is remove the py2 code from hg.
621. # [17:44] <gsnedders> To stop people thinking it has any development significance, beyond it working.
622. # [17:45] <jgraham> gsnedders: Things older than 2.6 are already broken I think
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624. # [17:45] <jgraham> I wontfixed some bugs already
625. # [17:45] <SimonSapin> however it’s done, It’s desirable that "pip install html5lib" just works on all supported python versions
626. # [17:45] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: Agreed.
627. # [17:45] <SimonSapin> it’s one of the reason I made cairocffi to replace py2cairo/pycairo
628. # [17:45] <dglazkov> annevk: Hixie actually HTML-ized XBL2 in the last large edit
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630. # [17:46] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
631. # [17:46] <gsnedders> If we drop everything but 2.6/2.7 then I may well just try and get a single codebase running.
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633. # [17:47] <SimonSapin> single code base with 2.6+ is very doable
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637. # [17:47] <SimonSapin> I even prefer a custom compat.py module to using six
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646. # [18:02] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: tbh, it's embarrassingly rare that I actually deal with anything like packaging nowadays, thus my lack of a clue :P
647. # [18:04] <SimonSapin> gsnedders: I could give a hand if you want
648. # [18:05] <gsnedders> I guess my biggest problem is just not knowing what a good idea is for Py2/Py3 duality.
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650. # [18:07] <SimonSapin> b'' and __future__.unicode_literals go a long way to make this easier
651. # [18:08] <SimonSapin> __future__.division is nice too. (integer division is still available as //)
652. # [18:08] <gsnedders> Last I knew we were still unofficially officially supporting older Python versions, thus not using that approach. Though 2to3 was badly needed just to sort out the mess there was before of str/unicode comparisons and coercions.
653. # [18:10] <SimonSapin> https://github.com/mitsuhiko/python-modernize looks nice (one-shot conversion to a single code base) but I haven’t tried it.
654. # [18:11] <gsnedders> tbh, it may well be pretty much possible just adding from __future__ import unicode_literals
655. # [18:11] * GPHemsley grumbles something about trailing slashes in URLs
656. # [18:11] <SimonSapin> GPHemsley: what about it?
657. # [18:12] <GPHemsley> SimonSapin: Just arguing about whether about URLs (particularly bare domains) should have a trailing slash. Also arguing about whether it's worth arguing about.
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660. # [18:13] <SimonSapin> tastes and colors …
661. # [18:14] * GPHemsley grumbles some more
662. # [18:14] <Ms2ger> non est disputandum?
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704. # [19:08] <JonathanNeal> Hello
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713. # [19:37] <JonathanNeal> When using a <link> element with rel=alternate, is the type required? This fellow says the DIHTML5 chapter is off by saying it is required https://github.com/diveintomark/diveintohtml5/issues/21
714. # [19:38] <tantek> huh, he had me until the citation of w3schools
715. # [19:39] <JonathanNeal> I ignored that reference in my reply. I know it's a red flag. As far as his argument goes, it doesn't really change it. He was just trying to give it weight.
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717. # [19:40] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: It seems like Mark is referring to literally rel="alternate", not rel="stylesheet alternate".
718. # [19:40] <tantek> right, that's the problem. someone thinking that referencing w3schools adds weight is bad sign.
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720. # [19:41] <tantek> also the argument is a bit pedantic and also his suggested text ruins the flow / readability of Mark's text for a very minor point.
721. # [19:41] <TabAtkins> I'm not sure if <link rel="alternate" type="text/css"> is supported anywhere.
722. # [19:41] <JonathanNeal> Unless we subtly believe that anything on whatwg that also happens to be in w3schools is probably wrong in both, and that w3schools is, in essence, nothing more than a parody-style bug reporter.
723. # [19:41] <tantek> TabAtkins, yeah.
724. # [19:41] <TabAtkins> If it is supported anywhere, I'd believe that type="text/css" might be required to have it process as CSS.
725. # [19:42] <tantek> so the confusion is that "optional" does not mean "has no effect"
726. # [19:42] <tantek> the issue reporter is confusing the two
727. # [19:42] <tantek> yes, "type" is optional, but like many optional features, if you want the desired EFFECT, then using it is REQUIRED
728. # [19:43] <JonathanNeal> I see.
729. # [19:43] <tantek> I think Mark's text is short, simple, and fine as is. Adding longer text as suggested just adds to the "glaze" factor and will likely result in LESS comprehension, not more.
730. # [19:43] <tantek> I would would "won't fix" this.
731. # [19:43] <tantek> *wordstutter*
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734. # [19:49] <JonathanNeal> Thanks
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736. # [19:50] <JonathanNeal> Thanks a lot, tantek. I would like to have most of these issues addressed or resolved before I begin making the responsive changes. My goal is to have the book more like this https://a248.e.akamai.net/camo.github.com/3d702d436ffc01ec0c533ab0e8b0afd06524257b/687474703a2f2f692e696d6775722e636f6d2f73504d437a2e706e67
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738. # [19:50] <JonathanNeal> I mean this https://a248.e.akamai.net/camo.github.com/6264b96dce00bb1d2a7b557567a5237213a1544e/687474703a2f2f692e696d6775722e636f6d2f58336838592e706e67
739. # [19:51] <tantek> ooh nice!
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781. # [21:09] <Hixie> hsivonen: nobody's talking about breaking interop, just evolving the platform
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783. # [21:10] <Hixie> hsivonen: <command> parsing isn't a feature, <command> is a feature. <command> has never been implemented.
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792. # [21:27] <Hixie> GPHemsley: did you do the eR-eF guy?
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798. # [21:38] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Done now.
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804. # [21:41] <Hixie> oh, thanks. didn't mean to ask you to do it, was just wanting to make sure i didn't give him a second account by mistake :-)
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821. # [22:05] <jgraham> Hixie: Well of course you do break interop if browsers parse <command>foo</command> differently. Particularly if you start getting usage of <command>
822. # [22:06] <Hixie> why would we get usage of <command>?
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824. # [22:08] <jgraham> Well I guess for a feature that's being removed and never got used the case is weaker
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827. # [22:10] <Hixie> i would be jumping up and down faster than and higher than hsivonen if someone was suggesting turning <img> into a non-void element or some such
828. # [22:11] <tantek> it is irrelevant if browsers do parse <command>foo</command> differently, if no one publishes any real world pages with <command> that depend on those differences, if even publishes any real world pages with <command> at all that is.
829. # [22:12] <tantek> if even *anyone* publishes...
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832. # [22:14] <jgraham> Hixie: But it is also problematic to introduce void elements
833. # [22:15] <jgraham> In general being conservative around the parser is reasonable
834. # [22:15] <tantek> that I'd agree with
835. # [22:15] <tantek> on both points
836. # [22:16] <jgraham> And the burden of proof that changes are compatible is firmly with the people proposing the changes
837. # [22:16] <tantek> though I'd say "risky" rather than problematic WRT introducing new void elements
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839. # [22:16] <tantek> it's only problematic if there are existing real world pages that happened to be depending on non-void usage of such elements
840. # [22:17] <tantek> jgraham - I'm not sure the burden is so cut and dry
841. # [22:17] <tantek> I think we can make bayesian/probabilistic arguments both ways
842. # [22:17] <jgraham> tantek: I fell like if you want to change the parser you should get some data and show that your change won't break any pages
843. # [22:18] <jgraham> There are a few sources of such data and people have successfully used them in the past
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845. # [22:19] <tantek> having to prove that every new element won't break the web is too unnecessarily high a bar for our desire to continue evolving the web
846. # [22:20] <tantek> that being said, as you pointed out, we should be conservative around changes to the parser
847. # [22:20] <jgraham> Not every new element
848. # [22:20] <tantek> new void elements are an interesting subset of both of those
849. # [22:20] <jgraham> Just ones that need parser changes
850. # [22:20] <tantek> not all parser changes are the same level of "riskiness"
851. # [22:22] <jgraham> Well obviously. Like Hixie said, changing <img> parsing is an obvious non starter. On the other hand (even) hsivonen believes that it's OK to change the parser for <main> given the risk/benefit (I wonder if someone looked for existing use of <main>...)
852. # [22:22] <tantek> (people did look for existing uses of <main> - I believe stevefaulkner in particular, with his open crawl corpus)
853. # [22:23] <tantek> Webdevdata.org
854. # [22:23] <tantek> now if there was a nice web UI to query that data ...
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858. # [22:25] <WeirdAl> !seen Ms2ger
859. # [22:27] <jgraham> WeirdAl: Good luck with that
860. # [22:27] <WeirdAl> I'm looking for some *simple* testcases for DOMParser/XMLSerializer
861. # [22:28] <WeirdAl> http://domparsing.spec.whatwg.org/
862. # [22:28] <WeirdAl> in particular character encodings
863. # [22:30] <jgraham> You want simple tests for character encodings? You realise that's an oxymoron, right?
864. # [22:30] <annevk> dglazkov: I wouldn't classify that edit as a major change
865. # [22:30] <jgraham> But I don't recall any DOMParser tests
866. # [22:30] <WeirdAl> jgraham: partially, yes :)
867. # [22:30] <jgraham> Maybe annevk does
868. # [22:30] <annevk> dglazkov: it was just rewording a few things to get implementor interest, not a fresh look
869. # [22:30] <annevk> WeirdAl: jgraham, sorry
870. # [22:30] <WeirdAl> (back in about 15 minutes)
871. # [22:30] <dglazkov> annevk: okay
872. # [22:30] <jgraham> Dammit I was trying to pass the buck :)
873. # [22:31] <annevk> dglazkov: I'd appreciate an answer to the offsetX/offsetY question
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875. # [22:31] <annevk> dglazkov: trying to figure out how to best refactor dispatch
876. # [22:31] <annevk> dglazkov: but maybe for now I should leave shadow DOM out of the picture?
877. # [22:33] <dglazkov> annevk: been terribly busy in the last few days, will start answering emails at earnest tomorrow morning (PST)
878. # [22:34] <annevk> dglazkov: okay, guess I can work on Encoding work instead
879. # [22:34] <dglazkov> annevk: thank you for your patience. you are very important to us. please continue to hold and the next representative will be with you shortly
880. # [22:36] <annevk> uhuh :)
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893. # [22:49] <WeirdAl> jgraham: well, the alternative is that I write tests... and people tell me that they're wrong :p
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900. # [23:04] <jgraham> WeirdAl: Maybe if you write correct tests they won't do that? ;)
901. # [23:04] <WeirdAl> heh, I write tests in Jasmine
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903. # [23:05] <WeirdAl> so even if it's correct, it's "wrong"
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908. # [23:11] <jgraham> Well yes, if you write tests in the wrong format it's not that helpful
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913. # [23:13] <jgraham> Where "wrong" in this case just means "not widely used in the standards community"
914. # [23:14] <csuwldcat> Hixie: Brian Kardell has the best solution I've seen so far
915. # [23:14] <csuwldcat> did you see the bug?
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917. # [23:14] <Hixie> jgraham: given the massive upside of <menuitem> and the comparatively trivial upside of <main>, I don't really understand hsivonen's position on this
918. # [23:14] <Hixie> csuwldcat: looking now
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921. # [23:16] <csuwldcat> dglazkov: read the last two comments on the is/tag bug
922. # [23:16] <csuwldcat> I like the simplicity of it
923. # [23:16] <jgraham> "could skip tokenization" - I don't see how that will work
924. # [23:17] <csuwldcat> jgraham: if you marked it as your 'fallback' it could do that, why not?
925. # [23:17] <csuwldcat> I mean DOM inflation, whatever
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927. # [23:17] * jacobolu_ is now known as jacobolus
928. # [23:17] <jgraham> csuwldcat: How do you skip tokenising something?
929. # [23:17] <csuwldcat> jgraham: basically, it could ignore them
930. # [23:17] <gsnedders> csuwldcat: How do you know where to resume tokenizing?
931. # [23:18] <jgraham> Yes, gsnedders was clearer
932. # [23:18] <csuwldcat> perhaps im not using the right word, can we just fix on the meaning?
933. # [23:18] <jgraham> You could at best stop treebuilding
934. # [23:18] <csuwldcat> you don't need the elements if their parent is marked fallback
935. # [23:18] <csuwldcat> sure, the rotator splint, that thing
936. # [23:18] <csuwldcat> :)
937. # [23:18] <jgraham> csuwldcat: It's hard to know what the meaning is if you say something that means something different
938. # [23:18] <csuwldcat> sorry
939. # [23:18] <csuwldcat> didn't mean to
940. # [23:19] <jgraham> Well it's OK , I understand now
941. # [23:19] <jgraham> I still don't understand why that's considered a good thing
942. # [23:19] <jgraham> it just seems to introduce gratuitous differences in the DOM
943. # [23:20] <csuwldcat> not really, it's not all that different than if a Template is applied and the child content doesn't match a <content select=""> selector
944. # [23:20] <csuwldcat> it is not rendered
945. # [23:20] <csuwldcat> same sort of thing
946. # [23:21] <csuwldcat> except you wouldn't ever need to even create the DOM elements in the first place
947. # [23:21] <jgraham> Well <template> has already caused all sorts of controversy because of the weird-ass way it interacts with the DOM
948. # [23:21] <csuwldcat> haha
949. # [23:21] <jgraham> But in that case there was a compelling reason
950. # [23:21] <csuwldcat> oh this is a barrel of monkeys isn't it
951. # [23:21] <csuwldcat> fallback allows the developer to not worry about it messing with normal component operation if it is not needed
952. # [23:22] <csuwldcat> think of alt=""
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954. # [23:22] <jgraham> Well
955. # [23:22] <csuwldcat> I don't need to query and loop all img elements turning off the alt display when it isn't needed
956. # [23:22] <csuwldcat> the browser does that
957. # [23:22] <csuwldcat> the fallback attr would be a flag to tell it to do the same, where similarly unneeded
958. # [23:23] <jgraham> It seems pretty dubious to me to start adding attributes that affect treebuilding
959. # [23:24] <jgraham> And it means that you can't show the fallback if there is some fatal problem with the component
960. # [23:24] <csuwldcat> lol, so naturally you would be opposed to attributes being used to massively affect treebuilding in the realm of compone... oh, wait ;)
961. # [23:24] <jgraham> I don't know if you can *have* fatal problems with components
962. # [23:24] <bkardell> Ok... can we consider first without fallback attr
963. # [23:24] <csuwldcat> jgraham: fatal problems?
964. # [23:25] <jgraham> Right, so ignoring the @fallback thing, this is roughly the same solution we have for <canvas>
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966. # [23:25] <jgraham> Which sucks
967. # [23:25] <csuwldcat> it works though
968. # [23:25] <jgraham> But it is at least a recognised pattern on the platform
969. # [23:25] <bkardell> It is the same as a lot of things
970. # [23:25] <csuwldcat> and I'd hate to impose known suckage on the 90% case, to satisfy the hand-wavey fractional cases
971. # [23:26] <jgraham> I am still dubious of your 90% claims
972. # [23:26] <jgraham> But anyway
973. # [23:26] <bkardell> Yes, that is my point...hixie/etc seem ok with them...
974. # [23:26] <csuwldcat> jgraham: me too, but a majority for sure
975. # [23:26] <dglazkov> sorry guys, doing the webkit gardening thing, need to watch the tree
976. # [23:26] <csuwldcat> I have experience in our own component building
977. # [23:26] <csuwldcat> we have actual man-on-the-ground info and usage on that
978. # [23:26] <csuwldcat> these are not made-up claims
979. # [23:27] <jgraham> By "fatal problems", I meant a situation where the component fails to init
980. # [23:27] <jgraham> For example if I write <x-foo><select fallback>[...] and there isn't any component corresponding to x-foo
981. # [23:28] <jgraham> I want the select to display
982. # [23:28] <csuwldcat> well, I wouldn't want component authors to have lame code in every component that sniffed if fallback content was needed and had to manually special case blowing it out
983. # [23:28] <jgraham> But with @fallback it wouldn't even be in the DOM
984. # [23:28] <csuwldcat> that was the reason for the suggestion
985. # [23:28] <csuwldcat> sure, and that's why I was thinking it would be helpful for devs
986. # [23:29] <bkardell> Ok, so I mentioned this earlier on that thread
987. # [23:29] <csuwldcat> because they wouldn't have to worry about erasing the unused stuff
988. # [23:29] <jgraham> Huh? Why would it helpful to not display the fallback in the case of an error?
989. # [23:29] <csuwldcat> in the words of an obviously cool dude: (2:28:15 PM) jgraham: But with @fallback it wouldn't even be in the DOM
990. # [23:29] <csuwldcat> precisely my motivation! :)
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994. # [23:29] <jgraham> Right, I see what you are trying to achieve
995. # [23:29] <csuwldcat> jgraham: error is different
996. # [23:30] <jgraham> But I think that's the wrong way to do it
997. # [23:30] <csuwldcat> keep it somewhere, sure
998. # [23:30] <csuwldcat> this is for you browser-backend folks to figure out
999. # [23:30] <jgraham> Well there isn't really any "somewhere"
1000. # [23:30] <csuwldcat> im just saying, it would be nice for a dev not to worry about it
1001. # [23:30] <csuwldcat> as with alt=""
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1003. # [23:30] <csuwldcat> jgraham: Templates have a non-rendered "somewhere"
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1005. # [23:31] <csuwldcat> so, there, somewhere like it
1006. # [23:31] <csuwldcat> you know what I mean
1007. # [23:31] <csuwldcat> so does <object>
1008. # [23:31] <jgraham> The non-rendered somewhere of templates makes kittens weep
1009. # [23:31] <bkardell> I think we all agree on the concepts though? Impl details aside?
1010. # [23:31] <bkardell> Lol
1011. # [23:31] <jgraham> Well
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1013. # [23:32] <csuwldcat> I'd rather have kittens weaping than the majority of developers crying because the interface is obtuse and lame
1014. # [23:32] <csuwldcat> weeping*
1015. # [23:32] <csuwldcat> I support kitten sadness, if you will
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1017. # [23:33] <jgraham> Conceptually <x-foo> with fallback is ugly and doesn't really encourage good fallback. But I think I can live with it. Of course I reserve the right to change my mind when Hixie and hsivonen point out all the flaws in this approach :)
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1021. # [23:33] <csuwldcat> jgraham: the known litany of flaws in the attribute routes are far worse than anything they've presented
1022. # [23:34] <csuwldcat> it's like choosing a footgun because a handknife scares you
1023. # [23:34] <Hixie> bkardell: the key is that with <foo/bar> you can't not give <foo>. If you're saying that <x-bar><foo> would fail to bind if the <foo> was present, and would turn into a single element in the DOM, then ok
1024. # [23:34] <Hixie> bkardell: but that seems like it'd require even more crazy parsing magic than <foo/bar>.
1025. # [23:34] <Hixie> er, if the <foo> was _not_ present
1026. # [23:34] <Hixie> sorry
1027. # [23:34] <csuwldcat> Hixie: but you're hoisting this imposition on all cases when it is not going to be the majority case
1028. # [23:35] <csuwldcat> that's the problem
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1030. # [23:35] <csuwldcat> Hixie: also, developers can just use the semantic elements as their component guts
1031. # [23:36] <csuwldcat> Hixie: this API will largely be an advanced dev API, at least short/medium term
1032. # [23:36] <csuwldcat> we will have the opportunity to best-practice-ize the hell out of it
1033. # [23:37] <csuwldcat> and to make you a happy Hixie, I will bust my ass over here at mozilla to make sure all of our docs, references, and components do this well
1034. # [23:37] <Hixie> i feel like you are not taking into account what i have been saying
1035. # [23:37] <csuwldcat> I will shout it from the rooftops, scout's honor
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1037. # [23:38] <Hixie> it doesn't matter what you or i say, documentation has minimal impact on what authors do
1038. # [23:38] <csuwldcat> Hixie: correct
1039. # [23:38] <csuwldcat> thus: <x/x-map>
1040. # [23:38] <csuwldcat> boom
1041. # [23:38] <Hixie> i've already responded to that
1042. # [23:39] <Hixie> if you're just going to ignore what i'm saying, there's not much point in discussion
1043. # [23:39] <csuwldcat> where did you respond to it
1044. # [23:39] <csuwldcat> I'm scanning the bug now
1045. # [23:39] <csuwldcat> and I feel similarly
1046. # [23:39] <Hixie> in IRC, yesterday
1047. # [23:40] <csuwldcat> I feel you are paying little to no attention to the #Fact, that the interface and implementation using attributes is fraught with peril
1048. # [23:40] <csuwldcat> and degrades all sorts of other things
1049. # [23:40] <Hixie> i'm not suggesting using attributes...
1050. # [23:40] <csuwldcat> sure you are
1051. # [23:40] <Hixie> authors aren't going to use <x/foo> any more than they'll use <x class="foo"> today -- it looks ugly, validators will complain, etc
1052. # [23:40] <Hixie> i'm really not
1053. # [23:40] <csuwldcat> <select/x-map> == <select x-map>
1054. # [23:40] <Hixie> no
1055. # [23:41] <Hixie> <select/map> == <select>, bound to "map" component
1056. # [23:41] <Hixie> no attributes
1057. # [23:41] <csuwldcat> How do I pollyfill that in a sane way Hixie?
1058. # [23:42] <sjmiles> my concern is that the actual % of components that have sensical fallback semantics is too small to justify any of this hoop jumping
1059. # [23:42] <csuwldcat> if you answer: "you dont" that is an immediate loss of 3423523452352345 points
1060. # [23:42] <csuwldcat> sjmiles: and that's the word!
1061. # [23:42] <csuwldcat> preach it!
1062. # [23:42] <Hixie> we shouldn't optimise for shims, shims are for a few years, the web is for decades
1063. # [23:42] <csuwldcat> hahaha
1064. # [23:43] <csuwldcat> yeah, and so is the lame interface we hoist upon them
1065. # [23:43] <Hixie> yeah ok laugh at me, that will convince me
1066. # [23:43] <csuwldcat> my thouhts exactely
1067. # [23:43] <csuwldcat> im not laughing at you buddy, you are a smart guy
1068. # [23:43] <csuwldcat> and a web icon
1069. # [23:43] <csuwldcat> I was laughing at the irony
1070. # [23:43] <Hixie> if you're not willing to have a serious conversation then i've got bigger fish to fry
1071. # [23:43] <csuwldcat> the very reason you dislike it
1072. # [23:43] <csuwldcat> is the same reason I dislike attr/slash etc
1073. # [23:44] <csuwldcat> sorry, I wasn't laughing at you
1074. # [23:44] <csuwldcat> as I said
1075. # [23:44] <Hixie> i've made multiple attempts at proposing alternative syntaxes that try to take into account the concerns that you have and the concerns i have
1076. # [23:44] <csuwldcat> we just use the same reason, from two different angles
1077. # [23:44] <Hixie> if you're not ok with any of them, it's your turn to try to make proposals that address my concerns and yours
1078. # [23:45] <csuwldcat> we did, but at a point we run up against the realm of total possibility
1079. # [23:45] <csuwldcat> are there other wholey different options possible?
1080. # [23:46] <sjmiles> some of us place a really high premium on simple syntax
1081. # [23:46] <sjmiles> and less so on fallback and machine-semantics
1082. # [23:46] <csuwldcat> sjmiles: where "some of use" == the majority of users/use-cases
1083. # [23:46] <Hixie> sjmiles: right, hence my proposing something that is literally the shortest it could be while still addressing the fallback issue
1084. # [23:47] <Hixie> csuwldcat: without data documenting what the use cases are, repeatedly saying "what i want is the majority case" is unconvincing
1085. # [23:47] <csuwldcat> but you introduce all sorts of other things
1086. # [23:47] <csuwldcat> like the unswitchable case
1087. # [23:47] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
1088. # [23:47] <csuwldcat> that still is an issue
1089. # [23:47] <Hixie> unswitchable case?
1090. # [23:47] <sjmiles> yes, but as I keep saying, the cost (even if it's the most minimal) is too high for me vs the ROI
1091. # [23:47] <csuwldcat> <input/x-foo> may not be able to be applied to <button/x-foo>
1092. # [23:47] <sjmiles> ^ this
1093. # [23:48] <csuwldcat> I may touch a proto prop in the code def of x-foo that does not exist on <button>
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1095. # [23:48] <csuwldcat> even if the phenotypical render of the two would have devs believe it would be logical
1096. # [23:48] <sjmiles> if <input/x-foo> was optional, then I would have no complaints
1097. # [23:48] <csuwldcat> that is a full-stop, unexpected bustage case
1098. # [23:48] <csuwldcat> yep
1099. # [23:48] <csuwldcat> me too
1100. # [23:49] <Hixie> if you write <input/foo>, and "foo" is defined to only apply to / only extend <button>, then obviously it shouldn't bind
1101. # [23:49] <csuwldcat> optional means I agree with anything, as long as there is the option to make a truly custom tag
1102. # [23:49] <Hixie> i answered that yesterday too
1103. # [23:49] <Hixie> sjmiles: it being optional is the one thing i think is a dealbreaker
1104. # [23:49] <csuwldcat> but Hixie, brotha man, where would you specify that?
1105. # [23:49] <sjmiles> then you make 90% of my components div/x-foo
1106. # [23:50] <csuwldcat> in the...component definition?
1107. # [23:50] <csuwldcat> which isn't in the page...
1108. # [23:50] <csuwldcat> which is behind a link asset....
1109. # [23:50] <csuwldcat> which brings us to square 1
1110. # [23:50] <Hixie> sjmiles: <div/foo>, not <div/x-foo>. And maybe, I don't know what your componetns are. Is there documentation somewhere that talks about what the likely use cases are? Because 90% of the ones I've seen are extending existing elements, not <div>.
1111. # [23:50] <Hixie> csuwldcat: eh?
1112. # [23:50] <Hixie> csuwldcat: you're not making sense man
1113. # [23:51] <csuwldcat> Hixie: "foo" is defined to only apply to / only extend <button
1114. # [23:51] <csuwldcat> where
1115. # [23:51] <csuwldcat> defined where
1116. # [23:51] <Hixie> csuwldcat: in the definition of "foo"
1117. # [23:51] <sjmiles> we've made extensive component systems using non-web based components
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1120. # [23:51] <csuwldcat> which isn't in the page!
1121. # [23:51] <Hixie> csuwldcat: so?
1122. # [23:51] <sjmiles> so, this is just me, I can't say 'for the web'
1123. # [23:51] <csuwldcat> so the dev has to find the link tag
1124. # [23:51] <csuwldcat> hunt through 50 defintions
1125. # [23:51] <Hixie> csuwldcat: why does the dev have to do anything
1126. # [23:51] <csuwldcat> and scout for a whitelist?
1127. # [23:52] <csuwldcat> these are untenable ergonomics
1128. # [23:52] <Hixie> why does the dev have to do this?
1129. # [23:52] <csuwldcat> Hixie: no, that is not really the case
1130. # [23:52] <Hixie> what are you saying "no" to
1131. # [23:52] <csuwldcat> this is why I wanted to talk in person with the rest of the folks
1132. # [23:52] <Hixie> i've only said "why" for the past like 5 lines
1133. # [23:52] <sjmiles> examples from similar technology: http://enyojs.com/gallery/
1134. # [23:53] <Hixie> csuwldcat: i don't see why we'd be any more able to have a conversation in person than on IRC
1135. # [23:53] <csuwldcat> why, because if they make the assumptions the platform infers currently, they are often going to be sadly mistaken
1136. # [23:53] <sjmiles> fwiw, often these things are 'decorators' that wrap around semantic elements, rather than replace them
1137. # [23:53] <Hixie> csuwldcat: what assumptions
1138. # [23:53] <Hixie> csuwldcat: i'm at a complete loss as to what you're talking about here
1139. # [23:53] <csuwldcat> sjmiles: wow, I didn't even think of that
1140. # [23:53] <csuwldcat> great point
1141. # [23:53] <csuwldcat> Hixie: this is why IRC can be frustrating
1142. # [23:54] <Hixie> csuwldcat: it works better if you use complete sentences :-)
1143. # [23:54] <csuwldcat> I think sjmiles knows exactely what im talking about
1144. # [23:54] <Hixie> csuwldcat: and don't use rhetorical questions
1145. # [23:54] <csuwldcat> if we force a whitelist
1146. # [23:54] <csuwldcat> <element whitelist="input">
1147. # [23:54] <Hixie> components have a whitelist already, no? they say what they're extending.
1148. # [23:55] <csuwldcat> then that forces a dev hunt
1149. # [23:55] <csuwldcat> no
1150. # [23:55] <csuwldcat> they don't
1151. # [23:55] <Hixie> seriously, dude, rebind your "enter" key to your "space" key and put everything from one sentence on one line
1152. # [23:55] <csuwldcat> can we stop being pedantic about my writing style and focus?
1153. # [23:56] <Hixie> your writing style is making this conversation impossible to follow for me
1154. # [23:56] <csuwldcat> there is currently no whitelist
1155. # [23:56] <csuwldcat> extend declares proto inheritance
1156. # [23:56] <Hixie> components as defined say what they extend, right?
1157. # [23:56] <csuwldcat> it is a 1:1
1158. # [23:56] * Quits: dcherman (~dcherman@164.55.254.106) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1159. # [23:56] <Hixie> ok, great
1160. # [23:56] <Hixie> so that's what you apply the binding to
1161. # [23:57] <Hixie> if you have a component that allows you to enter a bug for a section header, and it extends an <h3>, then you say <h3/bugformheading3>
1162. # [23:57] * Joins: dcherman (~dcherman@164.55.254.106)
1163. # [23:57] <Hixie> (though it would be simpler if you could have one component that you could apply to all of h1-h6)
1164. # [23:57] <csuwldcat> you can't mix proto extension and tag application together
1165. # [23:57] * Quits: skcin7 (~skcin7@c-68-38-156-213.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1166. # [23:57] <dfreedm> what if you wanted a component to extend another component?
1167. # [23:58] <csuwldcat> they are not the same and have internal code reliance impact
1168. # [23:58] <Hixie> csuwldcat: can you elaborate on why not?
1169. # [23:58] <csuwldcat> the proto is different
1170. # [23:58] <csuwldcat> your example of all Hs is myopic
1171. # [23:58] <dfreedm> say, foo extends h1, and bar extends foo
1172. # [23:58] <Hixie> the proto of what is different from the proto of what?
1173. # [23:58] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@2620:149:4:1b01:405a:2a65:fc4f:23dd) (Quit: rniwa)
1174. # [23:58] * Quits: tomasf (~tom@c-44dbe555.024-204-6c6b7012.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
1175. # [23:58] <sjmiles> you guys are talking about how to make it work, but my concern is still that the syntax is a non starter
1176. # [23:58] <dfreedm> would devs have to know to write a <h1/foo/bar> ?
1177. # [23:58] * Joins: tomasf (~tom@c-44dbe555.024-204-6c6b7012.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
1178. # [23:59] <Hixie> dfreedm: no, just <h1/bar>, at least in my proposal
1179. # [23:59] <csuwldcat> sjmiles: well sure, but what Hixie is saying, is that no matter how bad the interface would be, the optimal fringe case solution should trump
1180. # [23:59] <Hixie> dfreedm: the key is to have both the component name and the "real semantic" in the markup
1181. # [23:59] <Hixie> csuwldcat: see, that kind of strawman reinterpretation and trivialisation of my comments makes me not at all interested in talking with you
1182. # [23:59] <csuwldcat> is it not true?
1183. # [23:59] <Hixie> csuwldcat: because it makes me feel like you're not taking my concerns seriously
1184. # Session Close: Fri Jan 11 00:00:00 2013

The end :)