/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-01-16 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jan 16 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  7. # [00:07] <hober> dglazkov: <span is> or <div is>
  8. # [00:10] <bkardell> Hixie: yes. I think it might not be universally good nor bad in/of itself
  9. # [00:10] <bkardell> Hixie: in certain cases maybe more intuitive/valuable to devs
  10. # [00:10] <Hixie> bkardell: well nothing is universally good or bad in this space, but i think it has a number of problems that nothing else has, while simultaneously being less useful to authors overall
  11. # [00:10] <Hixie> bkardell: (for reasons i discussed in the bug)
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  18. # [00:21] <bkardell> Hixie: seems like it has advantages that most others don't too
  19. # [00:22] <Hixie> like what?
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  27. # [00:37] <bkardell> Hixie: as we discussed on the bug: known pattern, no parser changes necessary, you can falllback, inform engines, etc
  28. # [00:38] <bkardell> Hixie: btw... interesting comment there on bug just now
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  31. # [00:45] <tantek> how is the is= vs new tag debate not just "Distributed Extensibility, Round N+1" ?
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  34. # [00:50] <Hixie> bkardell: all the patterns we're talking about are known patterns, most don't require parser changes, the fallback thing is not a real win in practice based on lessons we've learnt with HTML additions in the past few years
  35. # [00:50] <Hixie> bkardell: (not sure what "inform engines" means)
  36. # [00:50] <Hixie> tantek: this actually defines the extensibility model, the syntax is just a minor aspect of the conversation
  37. # [00:51] <Hixie> tantek: unlike the usual discussion, where the syntax (the easiest part) is the only thing discussed
  38. # [00:51] <bkardell> Hixie: just meant search engines should be able to parse the content and get meaning
  39. # [00:51] <bkardell> Hixie: existing ones I mean
  40. # [00:51] <Hixie> bkardell: ah, then i disagree that it does that in practice
  41. # [00:52] <Hixie> bkardell: because it decouples the actual element from the semantic
  42. # [00:52] <Hixie> bkardell: you really want the semantic and the new element to be the same element, imho
  43. # [00:52] <Hixie> bkardell: otherwise links from one to the other don't work
  44. # [00:52] <bkardell> Hixie: really? It's mostly a wrapper...if wrapping element throw shit to fan, seems the whole web would be lost by now
  45. # [00:53] <Hixie> the web is remarkably resilient
  46. # [00:53] <Hixie> to failure
  47. # [00:53] <Hixie> very few things fail violently enough to destroy everything
  48. # [00:53] <Hixie> doesn't mean they're not failing though
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  79. # [01:55] <briankardell> Hixie: are you saying that when video was introduced that search engines couldn't see the fallback content?
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  100. # [02:15] <GPHemsley> It's amazing how many sites are completely broken in Firefox 3.6 nowadays.
  101. # [02:15] <GPHemsley> (Many of them are completely blank because the old parser thinks the whole page is a comment.)
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  122. # [03:15] <Hixie> briankardell: no, i'm saying that by and large authors don't bother to use the fallback feature of <video>
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  160. # [06:38] <MikeSmith> heycam: congrats on style scoped going out in Nightly
  161. # [06:38] <heycam> MikeSmith, thanks!
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  191. # [08:13] <hsivonen> GPHemsley: I expect the Web to become incompatible with Firefox 3.6 even faster now that Firefox 3.6 has (finally) dropped off http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser_version_partially_combined-ww-daily-20130115-20130115-bar
  192. # [08:13] <hsivonen> IE6 too!
  193. # [08:14] <hsivonen> of course, the number of items on that chart is arbitrary, but I still expect it to matter to people’s perception when stuff falls out of view
  194. # [08:15] <hsivonen> (aside: it’s sad that they bundle all Android stock browser versions together when they are at least as different as [and actually more different than] the Safari versions that are listed as separate)
  195. # [08:16] <hsivonen> (bundling Opera Mobile and Opera Mini into one number is worse, of course)
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  197. # [08:16] <hsivonen> (and separating Safari on iPhone and iPod Touch. seriously, why would you do that?)
  198. # [08:18] <tantek> separate iPhone and iPod Touch? Why not separate iPhone, iPhone 2, iPhone 3, iPhone 3G, iPhone3GS, iPhone 4, iPhone 4S, iPhone 5, iPod Touch, iPod 4 Touch, iPod 5 Touch?
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  201. # [08:20] <hsivonen> in general, it seems that when it comes to mobile, they throw out everything that’s technically interesting and lists brands instead
  202. # [08:23] <hsivonen> aargh. Acid2 requires nearest neighbor image scaling? sadness. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=830731#c12
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  239. # [09:43] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: any chance of moving http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/ to http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml ?
  240. # [09:43] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: and upgrading the mention of HTML5 to CR?
  241. # [09:46] <Ms2ger> Anyone ever heard of <table cols>?
  242. # [09:46] <hsivonen> at least the namespace URL of SVG doesn’t redirect to another URL
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  244. # [09:49] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yes chance
  245. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> we should
  246. # [09:50] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: great
  247. # [09:50] <SimonSapin> annevk (if you read logs), re http://dump.testsuite.org/encoding/single-byte-test.html , you might not need PHP or .htaccess if you use xhr.overrideMimeType()
  248. # [09:50] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: being able to do ctrl-l, ctrl-c and pasting into code would be most helpful
  249. # [09:51] <hsivonen> (yes, I still search for “XHTML namespace” on the Web when writing code)
  250. # [09:51] <hsivonen> (on Mac, I had a system-level macro for that, but on Linux I don’t)
  251. # [09:52] <hsivonen> (I had a thing hooked into the a11y APIs on Mac so that I could type a few letters and it expanded to the XHTML namespace URL)
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  268. # [10:20] <darobin> Ms2ger, jgraham: we just had our first pull request from a total third party :) https://github.com/w3c/html-testsuite/pull/18
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  273. # [10:39] <hsivonen> \o
  274. # [10:39] <hsivonen> oops
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  281. # [10:51] <Ms2ger> darobin, next you'll have me believe github actually was a good idea...
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  284. # [10:55] <hsivonen> has Chrome removed its character encoding override menu? or am I just failing to locate the menu?
  285. # [10:55] <hasather> hsivonen: Tools > Encoding
  286. # [10:57] <hsivonen> hasather: I don’t see an Encoding submenu there
  287. # [10:57] <smaug____> I have it
  288. # [10:57] <smaug____> v24
  289. # [10:58] <hsivonen> I tried Chrome 25 and Chromium 23
  290. # [10:58] <hsivonen> both on Linux
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  292. # [10:58] <hasather> hsivonen: I have it in 23 and 26 on Linux
  293. # [10:58] <smaug____> I tried Chrome, not Chromium
  294. # [10:59] <hasather> I tried both
  295. # [10:59] <Ms2ger> Still these, Chrome 25 dev on Linux64
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  297. # [11:01] <hsivonen> are you running with Unity global menu or without?
  298. # [11:01] <hasather> hsivonen: without
  299. # [11:01] <hsivonen> I see the Encoding submenu in the View menu on Mac
  300. # [11:01] <hsivonen> no Tools menu on Mac
  301. # [11:02] <hasather> hsivonen: I use the menu to the right of the address bar
  302. # [11:02] <Ms2ger> GPHemsley, what's Firefox 3.6? :)
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  304. # [11:02] <hsivonen> hasather: ooh. *that* Tools
  305. # [11:02] <hsivonen> hasather: thanks
  306. # [11:03] <hsivonen> I have another different Tools menu in the Unity global menubar
  307. # [11:03] <hsivonen> kudos to Google for burying this UI
  308. # [11:03] <hasather> hsivonen: Ah, didn't think of that, I'm not touching Unity :)
  309. # [11:04] <hsivonen> Firefox with the Firefox button enabled buries it in an illogical place
  310. # [11:04] <hsivonen> (Under a Web Developer menu)
  311. # [11:04] <smaug____> well, that is pretty similar to chrome's tools
  312. # [11:04] <hsivonen> (Web developer had better declare their encoding instead of using the menu!)
  313. # [11:04] <hsivonen> *developers
  314. # [11:05] <smaug____> true
  315. # [11:05] <hsivonen> the reason the menu exists is for *users* to deal with developers
  316. # [11:05] <smaug____> obviously no one has thought about the menu entry because no one ever uses it
  317. # [11:06] <hsivonen> right.
  318. # [11:06] <hsivonen> I want to add some telemetry so that we could get data for killing the menu
  319. # [11:06] <hsivonen> (now that I’ve spent time making the menu be less bad)
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  324. # [11:13] <smaug____> hsivonen: problem is that it can be very useful for someone
  325. # [11:14] <smaug____> yet most of the users don't even know it is there
  326. # [11:17] <darobin> Ms2ger: well, at this point it's just one submission, but with luck we can get that grow
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  328. # [11:18] <darobin> richt: just the man I was looking for! is there an Opera build with the Discovery API in it?
  329. # [11:19] <darobin> I'm looking through labs but the site is somewhat broken
  330. # [11:19] <richt> yep there is. you want the link?
  331. # [11:20] <richt> darobin, I sent you it on a private channel.
  332. # [11:21] <darobin> richt: thanks man!
  333. # [11:21] <darobin> ah, the site seems to work again, too — cool
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  339. # [11:34] <jgraham> darobin: Nice :)
  340. # [11:34] <Ms2ger> Hi jgraham
  341. # [11:35] <Ms2ger> Do you want to do me a little favour? :)
  342. # [11:36] <Ms2ger> Apparently Presto does something with <ul align=center>, which it shouldn't
  343. # [11:36] <Ms2ger> Want to file a bug for me? :)
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  345. # [11:36] <darobin> Ms2ger: do you have a recommended hotel to stay at near the Mozilla office in MV?
  346. # [11:37] <Ms2ger> Not personally, but I can ask around
  347. # [11:37] <darobin> Ms2ger: it's not a big deal, I can just pick something not too far from the offices
  348. # [11:37] * darobin hates the valley
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  350. # [11:38] <Ms2ger> holiday inn express, I'm told
  351. # [11:38] <Ms2ger> I haven't been to California this century, myself
  352. # [11:39] <Ms2ger> Apparently on walking distance
  353. # [11:39] <Ms2ger> darobin, ^
  354. # [11:39] <darobin> Ms2ger: excellent, thanks!
  355. # [11:39] <smaug____> yeah, 15mins walk or something
  356. # [11:40] <Ms2ger> Np
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  358. # [11:40] <darobin> anything that involves not having to drive sounds like heaven
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  364. # [11:50] <smaug____> darobin: oh, is that hotel closed
  365. # [11:50] <smaug____> google maps at least says so
  366. # [11:50] <smaug____> closed or moved
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  368. # [11:50] <darobin> smaug____: ah, damn, I'll check that when I book (which won't be this second)
  369. # [11:52] <smaug____> Hotel Avante is a bit farther away, 25mins walk
  370. # [11:56] <darobin> smaug____: thanks, I'll check that out if the other one has indeed vanished
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  382. # [12:36] <MikeSmith> darobin: plh will have a car when he's there I'm pretty sure
  383. # [12:36] <MikeSmith> can ride with him
  384. # [12:36] <darobin> MikeSmith: ah, good point
  385. # [12:41] <hsivonen> darobin: at this time of year, you’d need heating in Hotel Avante and the heater is noisy
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  387. # [12:41] <darobin> hsivonen: is it noisier than me snoring?
  388. # [12:42] <darobin> if plh has a car, I might just go to whatever hotel he's staying at
  389. # [12:42] <hsivonen> darobin: I haven’t heard you snoring, but probably yes
  390. # [12:42] <darobin> that would be very loud
  391. # [12:42] <darobin> as annevk knows :)
  392. # [12:42] <hsivonen> darobin: the heater has a fan that blows the warm air into the room
  393. # [12:43] <darobin> yeah, I'm familiar with that setup
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  410. # [13:43] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so moving of http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/ is hindered by the fact that we are still using CVS to maintain the source
  411. # [13:44] <MikeSmith> and there's no way to delete directories in CVS
  412. # [13:44] <MikeSmith> well there is
  413. # [13:44] <MikeSmith> but not from the client side
  414. # [13:45] <MikeSmith> and actually even if I removed that dir on the cvs server I don't think it will get removed on the Web server
  415. # [13:46] <MikeSmith> so.. I'll need to ask the system team for some help with it I guess
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  420. # [13:55] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ah CVS. the fitting companion to Namespaces. :-(
  421. # [13:55] <darobin> we're removing that page? why not turn it into something more useful?
  422. # [13:56] <MikeSmith> darobin: was just trying to move it to be without the slash
  423. # [13:56] <MikeSmith> i.e., to make the actual Namespace URI
  424. # [13:56] <darobin> it's not as if millions of URLs pointing to it were going to suddenly cry out in terror, and be suddenly silenced
  425. # [13:57] <darobin> oh dear me, that's a bad mistake...
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  427. # [13:57] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: actually it's even better than CVS and Namespaces
  428. # [13:57] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: because we make heavy use of conneg
  429. # [13:57] <MikeSmith> so it's the best all worlds
  430. # [13:58] <darobin> I wonder if that couldn't save us here
  431. # [13:58] <darobin> well, not conneg specifically
  432. # [13:58] <darobin> but maybe some modrewrite magic would work
  433. # [13:59] <MikeSmith> CVS rubbing elbows with conneg to serve of deferenceable documents for Namespace URIs
  434. # [13:59] <darobin> redirect xhtml/ to xhtml, and ensure that xhtml serves (through internal redirection) whatever else
  435. # [13:59] <darobin> you should throw some PHP in there
  436. # [13:59] <MikeSmith> darobin: I tried a little of that already but don't work
  437. # [13:59] <darobin> damn
  438. # [13:59] <MikeSmith> could be I did it wrong though
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  440. # [14:05] <Ms2ger> A bit of CVS, a bit of PHP, a bit of Namespaces and a bit of conneg
  441. # [14:05] <Ms2ger> Sounds like the W3C
  442. # [14:06] <Ms2ger> Either that or the Divine Comedy
  443. # [14:06] <MikeSmith> we aim to please
  444. # [14:06] <MikeSmith> and we don't disappoint
  445. # [14:07] <MikeSmith> as far as providing pure entertainment value for your dollar
  446. # [14:09] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: how come conneg needs a slash?
  447. # [14:09] <MikeSmith> it doesn't
  448. # [14:10] <MikeSmith> that part is not not currently using conneg
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  450. # [14:11] <MikeSmith> but if I were to put a file in there named xhtml.html it would show up as http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml
  451. # [14:11] <hsivonen> I see
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  454. # [14:13] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: it's more of The Good Soldier Schweik than the Divine Comedy
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  456. # [14:15] * Ms2ger waves at darobin
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  464. # [14:21] <darobin> Ms2ger?
  465. # [14:21] <Ms2ger> Oh, nothing, just a PR :)
  466. # [14:22] <hsivonen> so do we still think that letting some ampersands followed by ASCII letters not be errors is a good idea?
  467. # [14:23] <Ms2ger> I don't, if I counted the negatives correctly :)
  468. # [14:25] <hsivonen> I don’t either. So do I r+ a patch to match the spec while waiting for Hixie to change the spec?
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  471. # [14:29] <Ms2ger> The validator is more strict than the spec right now? I'd r-
  472. # [14:31] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: both the validator and View Source in Firefox
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  479. # [14:49] <hsivonen> stuff I learned today: don't view a patch in gmail and save as. Use the download link in the Gmail UI instead.
  480. # [14:49] <hsivonen> save as makes the patch fail to apply
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  520. # [16:46] <Ms2ger> darobin: I'm told: '"holiday inn express Mountain view" is now called "Hotel Strata"'
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  525. # [16:52] <zewt> hsivonen: is it expanding tabs or something?
  526. # [16:52] * Joins: bkardell_ (~bkardell@rb-sip2-122.greenmountainaccess.net)
  527. # [16:53] <Ms2ger> zewt, introducing CRs, possibly
  528. # [16:53] <zewt> (lately i've stopped using hard tabs in code completely; call them a long failed experiment)
  529. # [16:53] <zewt> (also it's easier to convince people to not use tabs than to fix broken ts=4 defaults in their editors)
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  533. # [17:08] <hsivonen> zewt: I did not diagnose
  534. # [17:09] * Ms2ger looks for an Opera person
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  538. # [17:12] <hasather> Ms2ger: can I help?
  539. # [17:12] <Ms2ger> hasather, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=831232#c2 ; consider yourself informed :)
  540. # [17:14] <hasather> Ms2ger: alright :)
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  546. # [17:32] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  547. # [17:35] * Joins: erichynds (~ehynds@64.206.121.41)
  548. # [17:36] <nimbu> hey dglazkov you should do some PR with @stshank
  549. # [17:36] <nimbu> w.r.t web components
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  552. # [17:39] * dglazkov does PR
  553. # [17:40] <dglazkov> how do I do PR, btw?
  554. # [17:40] <dglazkov> and who is @stshank
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  556. # [17:41] <nimbu> dglazkov: he is a tech journalist afaik
  557. # [17:41] <nimbu> @stshank on twitter
  558. # [17:42] <nimbu> dglazkov: you do PR by being your smooth suave self!
  559. # [17:42] * nimbu may not know how to spell suave
  560. # [17:42] <dglazkov> yay shampoo!
  561. # [17:42] <nimbu> dglazkov: https://twitter.com/stshank/status/291511013612867586
  562. # [17:42] <nimbu> ahahah
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  564. # [17:45] <dglazkov> twittered
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  571. # [17:53] <nimbu> very nice dglazkov
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  587. # [18:14] <annevk> So soon we can write cursor:progreß?
  588. # [18:14] <tantek> oh no
  589. # [18:15] <annevk> This whole lets use Unicode case folding for language identifiers madness got to stop.
  590. # [18:16] <tantek> yeah
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  593. # [18:24] <espadrine> annevk: reading through the URL parsing algorithm, it seems that URLs like "http:news.ycombinator.com" (without the double slash) yield to a bogus state in which we keep adding to the buffer and don't end the algorithm properly (even though there is a parse error).
  594. # [18:24] <espadrine> annevk: Is there any reason a scheme-relative URL must start with //? Browsers seem to accept it when there is no double slash, and I recall that TBL considered it unfortunate since it doesn't serve a purpose.
  595. # [18:24] <espadrine> annevk: Also, what does it mean to have both a parse error and to continue the algorithm?
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  597. # [18:25] <annevk> It depends on the base URL what such a URL will do.
  598. # [18:25] <annevk> Parse errors indicate issues with the syntax, but not all such issues result in total failure.
  599. # [18:26] <annevk> Most in fact, do not, and are happily "ignored".
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  601. # [18:27] <annevk> espadrine: So in parsing your URL, you hit step 2 in http://url.spec.whatwg.org/#scheme-state
  602. # [18:28] <annevk> espadrine: Then it either goes to relative or authority state or authority first slash state
  603. # [18:29] <espadrine> in this case, it ends up in the "authority state", and "appends c to buffer" until buffer is empty. Should we assume that then, the algorithm stops? What is the behaviour when the pointer goes beyond the end of the buffer?
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  606. # [18:30] <espadrine> in any case, I believe it makes the algorithm fail where browsers currently succeed
  607. # [18:32] <annevk> it appends to buffer until you hit step 2
  608. # [18:32] <annevk> the EOF code point
  609. # [18:33] <annevk> at which point it reprocesses the string
  610. # [18:35] <espadrine> ah, right, my bad. So it does work.
  611. # [18:37] <annevk> Hopefully :-) I very much appreciate you double checking!
  612. # [18:37] <espadrine> :)
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  621. # [19:01] <volkmar> Hixie: I think valueAsNumber and valueAsDate need some love
  622. # [19:01] <volkmar> every time I look at them, I feel like some things are missing
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  625. # [19:02] <Hixie> send feedback or file a bug, listing use cases :-)
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  627. # [19:02] <volkmar> Hixie: just a quick question before doing that
  628. # [19:02] <volkmar> Hixie: on setting valueAsNumber
  629. # [19:03] <volkmar> if the algorithm to convert to a string doesn't work
  630. # [19:03] <volkmar> what should happen?
  631. # [19:03] <volkmar> my code does set the value to the empty string
  632. # [19:03] <volkmar> but I can't find if I decided that or if it is written somewhere
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  634. # [19:04] <Hixie> doesn't the spec answer?
  635. # [19:04] <Hixie> (i don't know off hand, would have to just read the spec to answer)
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  638. # [19:06] <volkmar> Hixie: no the spec say to run the algorithm and set the value to the returning string
  639. # [19:07] <volkmar> but the algorithm, for time for example, is something like "set a valid time string that represents the input milliseconds..."
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  641. # [19:07] <volkmar> there is no error handling
  642. # [19:08] <volkmar> and for time, it's quite easy to imagine a number that isn't working (like anything greater or equal to 24*60*60*1000 or a negative number)
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  644. # [19:13] <Hixie> hm, let me see...
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  646. # [19:13] <Hixie> i'm confused
  647. # [19:13] <Hixie> why would the algorithm not work?
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  649. # [19:14] <Hixie> what value can you set valueAsNumber to that would fail?
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  653. # [19:15] <volkmar> Hixie: what .valueAsNumber = -1; should do?
  654. # [19:15] <volkmar> it type='time'
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  657. # [19:16] <volkmar> iow, what would .value return after that?
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  659. # [19:17] <volkmar> Hixie: actually, the |create a Date object| concepts solve the issue of float numbers
  660. # [19:17] <Hixie> "23:59:59", no?
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  662. # [19:18] <volkmar> Hixie: why?
  663. # [19:18] <volkmar> I mean, it's a way of seeing it
  664. # [19:19] <Hixie> valueAsNumber applies, so it doesn't throw InvalidStateError. valueAsDate applies, so you use the first branch. create a Date object with value -1, which is one second before 1970-01-01. Convert that to a string, which returns a valid time string for that time, which is 23:59:59. Set the value to that string.
  665. # [19:19] <Hixie> seems pretty unambiguous in the spec
  666. # [19:20] <Hixie> (s/for that time/for that time in UTC/)
  667. # [19:21] <volkmar> ok, I see
  668. # [19:21] <volkmar> this branch to Date is just odd
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  714. # [20:29] <Ms2ger> Quoting Feynman on www-style? Would upvote.
  715. # [20:32] <jgraham> "Let's work in a lap dancing club"?
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  718. # [20:34] <Ms2ger> jgraham, btw, did you file a bug for <ul align=center> or should I?
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  721. # [20:36] <jgraham> I didn't
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  803. # [23:14] <Hixie> anyone have test cases for the kind of thing discussed here?: http://www.w3.org/mid/DF0A84C4-AEAB-4716-B23F-FB3BA48BDE3C@gmail.com
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  834. # Session Close: Thu Jan 17 00:00:00 2013

The end :)