/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-01-24 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jan 24 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  24. # [00:25] <tantek> esprehn - catching up and reading your email, and recalling our conversation from last month.
  25. # [00:25] <tantek> in short yes, would be great if we could do some collaboration, harmonization in this area
  26. # [00:26] <tantek> I wanted to get Ben Adida involved on the Mozilla end - he's the right person to talk to about this kind of identity stuff.
  27. # [00:26] <tantek> he does tend to hang out more in irc://irc.mozilla.org/identity
  28. # [00:27] <tantek> personally I'd like to also explore how to make any kind of identity related API, structure, etc. more "web"-like
  29. # [00:27] <tantek> meaning, being able to use any web site you want for your identity, not just one of a handful of "providers"
  30. # [00:27] <tantek> there's too much oligopoly-centric framing in a lot of today's API designs
  31. # [00:28] <tantek> whereas I think we should design open web platform APIs *preferring* scenarios where individuals own/control their own domains
  32. # [00:28] <tantek> if that kind of thinking interests you, there's a whole crowd of people self-dogfooding and figuring out how to make it work in the #indiewebcamp channel
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  224. # [09:05] <annevk> Who else would be good to cc on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20567 ?
  225. # [09:05] <annevk> Maybe maciej?
  226. # [09:05] <annevk> Who from Google?
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  228. # [09:10] <heycam> arv?
  229. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> annevk: maybe post a message to webkit-dev, with a link to the bug? That way anybody could just Cc themselves.
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  256. # [09:55] <darobin> manu-db: you there?
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  259. # [10:01] <Ms2ger> Good morning, darobin :)
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  262. # [10:03] <darobin> hi Ms2ger!
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  285. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> darobin: if you pinging manu-db about those bugs with the public-rdfa-wg@w3.org address, please see my comments over on #html-wg :)
  286. # [10:35] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-86.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  287. # [10:37] <darobin> MikeSmith: yup saw them thanks!
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  292. # [10:56] <hsivonen> this sums up the disconnect: https://twitter.com/svgeesus/status/294075320691204097
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  311. # [11:43] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: https://twitter.com/svgeesus/status/294060529780137984 surprised me more
  312. # [11:43] <MikeSmith> "if SAX1 had it, ppl used and depended on it and SAX2 dropped it, that would be a great analogy."
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  314. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> I would think the normal conclusion would be that people probably did not depend on it
  315. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> and everybody gets things done fine in SAX2 without it
  316. # [11:45] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: but anyway, LexicalHandler does actually expose it, right?
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  318. # [11:45] <MikeSmith> I realize of course that ContentHandler doesn't
  319. # [11:46] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: not in LexicalHandler. Guess again. :-)
  320. # [11:46] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it’s well buried
  321. # [11:46] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: not in core
  322. # [11:46] <hsivonen> not in extra set 1.0
  323. # [11:46] <hsivonen> it’s in extras 1.1 alpha
  324. # [11:46] <MikeSmith> ah OK
  325. # [11:47] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: do you want to guess again or shall I give the name of the interface?
  326. # [11:47] <MikeSmith> well given that, it's even more clear there's not wide need for it by people programming in SAX
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  328. # [11:47] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: lemme make one more guess
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  330. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: well I was going to "guess" by finding it in the docs but I just now did that and I still can't find it!
  331. # [11:49] <hsivonen> Designed by XML haters, clearly. :-)
  332. # [11:50] <hsivonen> The interface is Locator2. I bet you didn’t see that coming.
  333. # [11:50] <MikeSmith> eh?
  334. # [11:50] <MikeSmith> nuts
  335. # [11:51] <hsivonen> well, it’s not completely nuts to bundle the character encoding info with line and column info
  336. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> ah yeah that makes sense
  337. # [11:51] <hsivonen> but it shows how the designers of the API treated that stuff as that kind of IO artifact
  338. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> yeah
  339. # [11:53] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: about Chris's comments, funny thing is, I don't think Chris feels very strongly about polyglot. So I'm not sure why he cares whether the XML declaration is exposed in the DOM API
  340. # [11:55] <MikeSmith> and so far the polyglot case that Glazman brought up is the only case that I recall anybody in the discussion saying they actually needed it for
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  342. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> I guess maybe what Chris was reacting to is that he thought the removals were motivated just by kneejerk XML hate
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  347. # [12:03] <JibberJim> Anyone know off hand if the video element can go 0 volume distinct from MUTE (ie change volume to 0, call unmute, what happens?) It seems from reading that mute and volume are distinct, so you can have an "unmute" which does nothing if the volume is set to 0. And a volume setting to 1 which doesn't produce any sound because it's muted.
  348. # [12:05] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  349. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> JibberJim: what method do you call to "unmute"?
  350. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> oh
  351. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> nm
  352. # [12:11] <MikeSmith> JibberJim: after looking at the spec, your reading seems correct
  353. # [12:11] <MikeSmith> you want other behavior?
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  355. # [12:12] <MikeSmith> like, if volume is 0 and you unmute, then something should happen to the volume?
  356. # [12:12] <darobin> that strikes me as entirely sane and correct behaviour
  357. # [12:12] <MikeSmith> yeah
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  359. # [12:16] <darobin> but JibberJim isn't usually a huge fan of sane and correct
  360. # [12:17] <Ms2ger> And a good morning to you too
  361. # [12:19] <karlcow> well with unmuting and listening to the volume at 0. You can at least listen the noise of silence.
  362. # [12:22] <Ms2ger> I didn't need to see your name to know who said that :)
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  368. # [12:31] <matijsb> there's a Terry Pratchett joke in there somewhere
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  370. # [12:33] <Ms2ger> You're welcome to make it :)
  371. # [12:34] <matijsb> I'll leave it to the pros ;)
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  428. # [15:06] <manu-db> darobin, MikeSmith: Hey - was in meetings all day yesterday - what's up?
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  434. # [15:19] <darobin> manu-db: don't worry, I pinged you by mistake
  435. # [15:19] <darobin> MikeSmith: was pretending to be you in Bugzilla, which confused me
  436. # [15:20] <manu-db> darobin: Is this exchange going to result in no new work being piled on top of me?
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  439. # [15:22] <Ms2ger> manu-db, if you want work...
  440. # [15:22] <manu-db> noooo!
  441. # [15:22] <manu-db> no
  442. # [15:22] <Ms2ger> Yes you do! ;)
  443. # [15:22] <manu-db> no more, I can't take it.
  444. # [15:22] * manu-db hides under darobin.
  445. # [15:23] * Ms2ger gives work to darobin instead
  446. # [15:23] <manu-db> good man. :) - he loves extra work.
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  450. # [15:28] <darobin> you can try giving work to me, but what with my brain being smothered in snot it's not going to do you any good :)
  451. # [15:29] <manu-db> it just slides off... that's a good defense, never thought about it that way.
  452. # [15:29] <manu-db> darobin: on a more serious note - is there anything I need to do as a result of whatever happened yesterday?
  453. # [15:29] <Ms2ger> I'm snot, you're glue?
  454. # [15:30] <darobin> manu-db: no, but thanks for offering ;)
  455. # [15:30] <darobin> Ms2ger: huwah?
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  463. # [15:37] <Workshiva> I haven't been keeping up with the filesystem APIs, is there a way to offer the user to save a data: URI with a recommended filename?
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  468. # [15:51] <darobin> Workshiva: <a href='data:...' download='xxx.foo'>,...
  469. # [15:52] <Workshiva> That seems almost too easy to be true
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  472. # [15:55] <Workshiva> Also, thanks
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  474. # [16:00] <darobin> Workshiva: well, it's not implemented all that broadly
  475. # [16:02] <Workshiva> Luckily I only need it for a chrome extension
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  523. # [17:43] <Velmont> Hmmm. darobin, what do you think about the name? If everything is supposed to be in html-testsuite, it's not exactly a very ... obvious name, is it?
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  532. # [17:54] <darobin> mmm, Velmont is Odin in disguise!
  533. # [17:54] <darobin> Velmont: I don't think that the name is a huge problem to be honest
  534. # [17:55] <darobin> 99% of people think that all of what we do is "HTML5"
  535. # [17:55] <Velmont> Okay. :]
  536. # [17:55] <Ms2ger> Those people aren't the ones I want to write tests :)
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  538. # [17:55] <Velmont> We want the 1%!!
  539. # [17:55] <darobin> lol
  540. # [17:56] <darobin> Ms2ger: that's actually not true, a lot of the good test writers really don't give a shit about the whole naming thing
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  542. # [17:56] <darobin> and we want them on board
  543. # [17:56] <Ms2ger> The ones that can tell a spec from a hole in the ground ;)
  544. # [17:56] <darobin> (and I don't think they should give a shit — I for one don't :)
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  546. # [17:56] <Velmont> At TestTWF there was a HTML5 "part". Everyone had to put up their hand on what they wanted to work on. Almost noone did put up their hand for HTML5, because they were waiting for "IndexedDB" and similar specs that they cared about. :]
  547. # [17:57] <darobin> if you think that a spec is different from a deep, dark, and neverending hole in the ground you clearly don't know what a spec is
  548. # [17:57] <marcosc> heh
  549. # [17:57] <darobin> Velmont: true, but frankly I don't think the name is an issue
  550. # [17:57] <darobin> naming would be an important concern if we went with multiple repos
  551. # [17:58] <darobin> because we'd need to make it easy for people to find the right repo
  552. # [17:58] <darobin> but if there's only one, everything points there
  553. # [17:58] <darobin> we could call it unicorn for all it matters IMHO
  554. # [17:58] <darobin> who am I kidding that my opinions are ever humble? I meant IMO
  555. # [17:58] <Velmont> I'm a bit at loss about what to write on that wiki page for Art though... I can copy what's in the readme at github, maybe. ( https://github.com/w3c/html-testsuite/blob/master/README.md )
  556. # [17:58] * Quits: TallTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  557. # [17:59] <darobin> Velmont: write whatever you think someone who doesn't know us but is clueful would need to get started
  558. # [17:59] <darobin> if that means cut and paste, then all the easier for you
  559. # [17:59] <darobin> once you've put a first draft up I'll look at it to help
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  563. # [18:04] <Ms2ger> darobin, pff, let's just put it on github.com/whatwg/tests :)
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  565. # [18:04] <darobin> haha
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  568. # [18:06] <Velmont> darobin: The real reason I asked was that I was maybe expecting some resistance on the naming not being generic.
  569. # [18:07] <darobin> Velmont: yeah I thought of that too
  570. # [18:07] <Velmont> The Webapps WG uses the W3C's ''html-testsuite'' repository on GitHub for its tests.
  571. # [18:07] <darobin> if it really is a problem we'll look into changing it
  572. # [18:07] <darobin> but I don't think it's a real issue
  573. # [18:08] <Velmont> Yeah, don't really have to preemptively do that ;]
  574. # [18:08] <darobin> right, I prefer to cross that bridge if it shows up
  575. # [18:08] <darobin> no point in solving an issue if no one ends up having it :)
  576. # [18:08] * Ms2ger throws a bridge at darobin's feet
  577. # [18:08] * Ms2ger puts a nice stack of tests on top
  578. # [18:09] * darobin mumbles something about the velocity of an unladen swallow
  579. # [18:09] <darobin> Ms2ger: you *really* don't want me reviewing anything today
  580. # [18:09] <darobin> I'll get to it as soon as I can look at something more complex than email without my eyes crossing
  581. # [18:09] <Ms2ger> I don't want you to review, I want you to approve :)
  582. # [18:09] <darobin> lol
  583. # [18:10] <darobin> if it really is only about approving, you can approve it yourself you know :)
  584. # [18:10] <Ms2ger> Well, technically, yes :)
  585. # [18:10] <Ms2ger> But that makes it seem the review process is a failure
  586. # [18:11] <Ms2ger> We wouldn't want that, would we? ;)
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  588. # [18:12] <gsnedders> In reality, nobody reviews anything anyway.
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  628. # [18:56] <Velmont> Meh darobin disappeared. But anyway -> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/Submitting_tests
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  644. # [19:19] <tantek> Velmont - I took a look - looks good. And thanks for using the W3C wiki rather than a WG silo wiki :)
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  646. # [19:21] <Velmont> tantek: Yeah, I just notified webapps list about it now. Time to do something else :]
  647. # [19:22] <tantek> Velmont, cool. Also, your update reminded me the Webapps page itself needed some updating, e.g. dates of the next meeting: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps
  648. # [19:23] <Velmont> tantek: Haha, yeah, I didn't even read them :S Should've noticed that.
  649. # [19:23] <tantek> It's ok, now we just have to convince whoever maintains the meeting agendas to use the W3C wiki :)
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  681. # [20:26] <matjas> “If there wasn’t a benefit to coding XHTML then why would it be formally codified into the (x)HTML5 standard then?” — http://mathiasbynens.be/notes/html5-levels#comment-13
  682. # [20:27] <Hixie> and y'all complained when i had the spec discouraging xml
  683. # [20:27] <Hixie> and look where we are now :-P
  684. # [20:28] <matjas> (i didn’t complain :P)
  685. # [20:29] <matjas> relevant commit from the other day http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=7645&to=7646
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  687. # [20:31] <Hixie> btw html4 didn't "not require" the slash; the slash just meant something very different in html4
  688. # [20:31] <Hixie> basically almost none of the browsers implemented it, but the validator did
  689. # [20:33] <matjas> Hixie: heads up, http://ln.hixie.ch/+ 404s
  690. # [20:33] <matjas> Hixie: what did it mean in HTML4? is this about SGML?
  691. # [20:33] <Ms2ger> Yep
  692. # [20:33] <Ms2ger> <s/foo/
  693. # [20:33] <matjas> ah, and <title// etc., I see
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  695. # [20:34] <matjas> http://mathiasbynens.be/notes/minimal-html all over again
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  697. # [20:38] <Hixie> hm, oops
  698. # [20:38] * Hixie fixes his redirects
  699. # [20:39] <Hixie> 404 fixed
  700. # [20:39] <Hixie> yeah, the / in html4 was sgml magic syntax
  701. # [20:40] <Hixie> meant various things, but none of it is what html now says it means
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  706. # [20:53] <jgraham> Velmont: FWIW I think the repo name should be web-platform-testsuite
  707. # [20:53] <jgraham> Or failing that no-rdf-allowed-testsuite
  708. # [20:54] <Ms2ger> How about rdfa?
  709. # [20:54] <jgraham> The second choice name should answer that ;)
  710. # [20:54] <jgraham> But seriously, I don't care if RDFa people put tests there
  711. # [20:54] <jgraham> I can ignore them without difficulty
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  725. # [21:17] <JibberJim> MikeSmith / darobin (who's not here...) sorry I got dragged away after my question :( But yes, I don't like the idea of calling UNMUTE and it not resulting in sound coming out - however, that's as a user, and it doesn't necessarily mean the spec is wrong as you can handle the behaviour yourself in your UI layer.
  726. # [21:18] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  727. # [21:18] <JibberJim> I noted that Chrome's UI handles it by showing the Mute/Unmute button as muted and unresponsive when you click on it if you make the volume 0, and that seems very wrong to me. It means the user has a button which sometimes work.
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  732. # [21:20] <TabAtkins> JibberJim: Existing televisions seem relatively split on the subject, in my experience. Some treat mute-ness as an independent state from volumn, others act fancy and will push you up to a "reasonable" volumn if you lower the volume to 0 and then press unmute.
  733. # [21:21] <TabAtkins> Man, *why* am I typoing it as volumn so much? That third instance, which is spelled correctly, took me two tries to get it right.
  734. # [21:21] <TabAtkins> Anyway, the independent-state thing seems nice and simple to understand. Trying to decide on a reasonable volume seems hard.
  735. # [21:22] <TabAtkins> (Argh, again with the attempted volumn spelling!)
  736. # [21:22] <Velmont> jgraham: "tests"
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  738. # [21:23] <JibberJim> It actually came up because the test page only lets you take the volume down to 0.01 or something like that...
  739. # [21:24] <JibberJim> Yes I agree, the "what is a reasonable volume" is hard - although perhaps less hard on a TV which often these days has a "volume when you turn it on" setting in their menu.
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  751. # [21:44] <jgraham> Velmont: The name?
  752. # [21:45] <jgraham> I specifically don't want EmotionML tests, or RIF tests or anything that you wouldn't implement in a browser
  753. # [21:46] <jgraham> "web platform" is the name for things that we implement in web browsers
  754. # [21:46] <jgraham> So web-platform-tests[uite]
  755. # [21:47] <jgraham> (I think html-testsuite is bad because it's misleading; we want to make it easy for people to find the right things)
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  764. # [21:56] <annevk> MikeSmith: emailed webkit-dev
  765. # [21:56] <Hixie> annevk: did you get a chance to review https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17839 ?
  766. # [21:56] <annevk> Hixie: to some extent, need to figure out still why you can't use decode
  767. # [21:56] <Hixie> it does DOM manipulation
  768. # [21:57] <Hixie> er
  769. # [21:57] <Hixie> BOM
  770. # [21:57] <Hixie> typo
  771. # [21:57] <annevk> Hixie: which is what we want, unless the requirements changed somehow
  772. # [21:58] <Hixie> yeah but i already do that
  773. # [21:58] <annevk> I'll have a look tomorrow, but basically assume I'm on a 16-day vacation or some such
  774. # [21:58] <annevk> Hixie: the idea was to centralize the BOM checking
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  777. # [21:59] <Hixie> i don't see much value in changing how we do bom checking
  778. # [22:01] <annevk> if it's a change something went wrong
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  782. # [22:02] <annevk> the value of CSS / HTML / XML / JavaScript / ... using decode (and new formats using utf-8 decode) is that there's more shared code
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  784. # [22:02] <Hixie> as far as i can tell it's just pointless editorial tweaking :-)
  785. # [22:02] <Hixie> if it ain't broke, i don't want to fix it
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  790. # [22:04] <annevk> I'll keep that mind when doing a more thorough review
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  809. # [22:33] <JibberJim> Another VIDEO element question, which I can't find in the spec. Is the loadStarted event required? Or is it possible to call .play() and it go immediately to canPlayThrough ? because it's got a source and it can play etc. ?
  810. # [22:36] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  811. # [22:38] <JibberJim> I think the event is required from reading.
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  867. # Session Close: Fri Jan 25 00:00:00 2013

The end :)