/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-01-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Jan 25 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  28. # [00:58] <Hixie> anyone got IE handy?
  29. # [01:01] <Hixie> hsivonen: you around?
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  31. # [01:07] <heycam> Hixie, I have an IE
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  40. # [01:40] <dgorbik> Hixie: how should be lang WebVTT node get translated to DOM?
  41. # [01:40] <JonathanNeal> I'm drowning, my blood has gone to the extremities, and the only way to save me is to decide whether {} are braces or brackets in Hixie English.
  42. # [01:42] <dgorbik> dgorbik: oh, looks like it's still considered to be a class node but with the lang attribute set, right?
  43. # [01:50] <dgorbik> Hixie: okay so class nodes will get their language from the stack, but language nodes will still be created in the tree. So the question still remains - should they be dropped when we build a DOM tree or should a span be created with lang attribute set?
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  126. # [05:01] <JonathanNeal> hello
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  292. # [13:27] <hsivonen> Hixie: I’m around now
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  299. # [13:47] <Ms2ger> jgraham, browser-tests?
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  304. # [14:10] <darobin> bikeshed all the things!
  305. # [14:11] <Ms2ger> Hi darobin, how are you today? :)
  306. # [14:11] <darobin> I think I'm going to head home and back to bed :)
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  311. # [14:21] <annevk> darobin: solid plan
  312. # [14:22] <darobin> annevk: I like it too
  313. # [14:22] * abstractj|away is now known as abstractj
  314. # [14:23] <MikeSmith> oh joy http://www.iana.org/assignments/character-sets that the validator needs to parse to get valid character-set info and that has been a plain-text file for the last gazillion years now redirects to http://www.iana.org/assignments/character-sets/character-sets.xml
  315. # [14:25] <MikeSmith> though I see now the plain-text one is at http://www.iana.org/assignments/character-sets/character-sets.txt
  316. # [14:26] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: seems you must have a load problem on bugzilla.validator.nu
  317. # [14:26] <MikeSmith> it's taking a long time to load
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  319. # [14:30] <annevk> MikeSmith: please implement the Encoding Standard and not IANA character-sets
  320. # [14:30] <MikeSmith> annevk: has Hixie updated the HTML spec yet?
  321. # [14:30] <MikeSmith> oh yeah I guess he did earlier this week
  322. # [14:30] <annevk> hoping to review that in more detail today
  323. # [14:30] <MikeSmith> ok
  324. # [14:30] <annevk> but yeah, HTML, CSS, now use it
  325. # [14:31] <annevk> JavaScript too I guess since HTML defines JavaScript's network layer
  326. # [14:31] <MikeSmith> OK then yeah we can update the validator to what the HTML spec says now
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  328. # [14:33] <annevk> MikeSmith: which is much easier, the Encoding Standard has a fixed list
  329. # [14:33] <annevk> MikeSmith: available as JSON to boot
  330. # [14:33] <MikeSmith> yup
  331. # [14:34] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: we should switch over to the Encoding Standard like annevk says
  332. # [14:35] <MikeSmith> ok I'll up a bugzilla.validator.nu bug for it
  333. # [14:35] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: probably someone running Schematron on the same host that runs bugzilla
  334. # [14:37] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: man we really got to turn that off. I have come around to thinking it's probably still useful to keep HTML4 checking but we could just replace the current xhtml.sch with Java code just like for the HTML5 case
  335. # [14:38] <MikeSmith> the HTML4 xhtml.sch is a much smaller and simpler set of assertions than the HTML5 set
  336. # [14:38] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: good idea? bad idea?
  337. # [14:40] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: good
  338. # [14:40] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: but we should also make the default config not do HTML4 validation automatically
  339. # [14:40] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: that is, HTML4 validation should always require user action
  340. # [14:41] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: FWIW, I think https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/omnivalidator/ is what's making bugzilla.validator.nu slow
  341. # [14:44] <hsivonen> Although I could just make Validator.nu 403 for that one, I’d rather fix the perf problem
  342. # [14:44] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: if that's what's causing it you may want to ask the developer to point it at http://validator.w3.org/nu/ instead
  343. # [14:45] <hsivonen> or html5.validator.nu
  344. # [14:46] <hsivonen> hmm. maybe I can add a redirect
  345. # [14:46] <MikeSmith> I wonder if the fix for the perf problem might be to set up rate throttling
  346. # [14:47] <MikeSmith> or if the problem is not single IPs using it excessively but instead just the overall volume, I guess that wouldn't help
  347. # [14:47] <hsivonen> that, too, but most pressing fixes is: Make sure Schematron is never run without the user explicitly asking to run Schematron
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  349. # [14:47] <MikeSmith> yeah
  350. # [14:47] <hsivonen> I’ll try to set up a redirect now
  351. # [14:48] <MikeSmith> so yeah I agree HTML4 validation should always require user action, never do HTML5 validation automatically
  352. # [14:48] <MikeSmith> for the W3C instance that makes even more sense because there's already the existing validator for HTML4
  353. # [14:49] <MikeSmith> currently at least
  354. # [14:50] <MikeSmith> though the long-term plan is still to phase that out and make the validator.nu backend the default at http://validator.w3.org and move the legacy one to http://validator.w3.org/html4 or something
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  367. # [15:10] <hsivonen> looks like I don't manage to make Apache do what I want
  368. # [15:10] <hsivonen> oh well
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  377. # [15:30] <MikeSmith> annevk: so the document-conformance requirement in the Encoding spec is that documents must use utf-8, right?
  378. # [15:30] <annevk> yeah
  379. # [15:31] <MikeSmith> ok so we need to just emit an error for anything other than that
  380. # [15:31] <annevk> admittedly a bit optimistic, though given the many issues with everything else I think it's fair
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  385. # [15:36] <MikeSmith> I guess for the other values that are listed in the spec as being required for UAs to support, we could emit a specific error saying, "Error: 'iso-8859-2' is supported in current browsers but is no longer a valid encoding. Use utf-8 instead."
  386. # [15:37] <zewt> not sure i'd say it's not "valid" (it is)
  387. # [15:38] <zewt> "iso-8859-2 is an obsolete legacy encoding, utf-8 should be used instead"? not sure
  388. # [15:38] <MikeSmith> zewt: actually I like that wording better, yeah
  389. # [15:39] <zewt> (i'm always a little wary of overselling conformance criteria)
  390. # [15:40] <zewt> personally when every browser supports something and will always support something, i find "you really shouldn't do this" to be a bit more honest than "this is illegal stop it", heh
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  392. # [15:41] <MikeSmith> yeah, true
  393. # [15:41] <MikeSmith> more helpful
  394. # [15:41] <MikeSmith> I'm interested in just trying to make sure the error message is more helpful than it is annoying
  395. # [15:42] <zewt> i wonder if there's a summary somewhere of issues legacy encodings will cause that everyday authors might experience (i've been on utf-8 far too long to remember any, at least at the non-scripting markup level)
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  397. # [15:43] <MikeSmith> hmm if there isn't yet we could certainly make a summary at the wiki or somewhere
  398. # [15:43] <zewt> eg. reasons non-programmer web authors, who don't need to write text outside of their legacy encoding, should care (if there are any)
  399. # [15:43] <MikeSmith> and I could actually have the error messages then include a link to that
  400. # [15:43] <zewt> ("utf-8 is nicer" isn't something joe blogger the piano teacher cares about)
  401. # [15:44] <MikeSmith> yeah
  402. # [15:44] <MikeSmith> so yeah we should definitely have a page somewhere to link to
  403. # [15:46] <annevk> zewt: http://annevankesteren.nl/2009/09/utf-8-reasons has some
  404. # [15:46] <MikeSmith> annevk: btw I think it would be better to have the spec say, "Documents must use the utf-8 encoding" instead of "Authors must use the utf-8 encoding"
  405. # [15:46] <annevk> http://annevankesteren.nl/presentations/1F4A9.html has a bunch of points too
  406. # [15:47] <annevk> MikeSmith: do you consider .js and .css files documents?
  407. # [15:47] <zewt> annevk: those (first one) are programmer reasons
  408. # [15:47] <zewt> those are easier to come up with
  409. # [15:47] <zewt> annevk: heh i was just thinking about PILE OF POO for this same reason D:
  410. # [15:48] <zewt> (it's probably a more compelling feature for random users than the others, heh)
  411. # [15:48] <annevk> you hit issues as soon as go beyond a very simple document
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  413. # [15:48] <annevk> also, it's required material for a lot of new formats
  414. # [15:49] <annevk> MikeSmith: btw, for now I'd make it a Warning if that's feasible
  415. # [15:50] <annevk> MikeSmith: give people another year or so to get used to the idea
  416. # [15:51] <MikeSmith> annevk: hmm yeah as far as author vs document, I guess people normally would not consider .js and .css files to be documents, so please forget what I said :)
  417. # [15:51] <zewt> i almost sort of wish some kind of magic was stuffed into the html doctype, like <!doctype html!> or something, that future browsers could interpret as "default to utf-8", so we could skip boiletplating the charset declaration in the future
  418. # [15:53] <MikeSmith> annevk: as far as Warning vs Error I don't mind it being an Error. For end users, in practice I think most of them they really don't make any distinction -- they consider both to be errors that they need to fix
  419. # [15:54] <MikeSmith> you should ask hsivonen too but I suspect he also figures it should be an Error if you're going to make it a requirement at all
  420. # [15:54] <zewt> sometimes i pay more attention to errors, at least for documents that end up with pages of "warning autocomplete is illegal" warnings that drown out everything else (don't recall which validator that was, whichever one opera punts to by default)
  421. # [15:55] <annevk> MikeSmith: fair enough
  422. # [15:56] <MikeSmith> zewt: yeah me too but I'm mot sure if most users do that. From bug reports at least, many just seem to want "how do I make this message go away!!"
  423. # [15:57] <zewt> heh
  424. # [15:57] <zewt> everyone knows the real reason to pass validation is to make the validator pass, not to solve problems :P
  425. # [15:58] <zewt> afk work
  426. # [16:01] <MikeSmith> :)
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  438. # [16:23] <hsivonen> oh great. I post to www-style and get a reply from someone who thinks we should deprecate media queries.
  439. # [16:23] <hsivonen> I wonder if I should reply to any part of his email.
  440. # [16:23] <Ms2ger> Deprecate all the things!
  441. # [16:24] <Ms2ger> My general approach to such emails is chuckle and ignore
  442. # [16:24] <Ms2ger> "If you use `respec`, your ED may be broken"
  443. # [16:24] <Ms2ger> May?
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  446. # [16:49] <annevk> hsivonen: yeah, or a less than comparison in script
  447. # [16:49] <annevk> hsivonen: you'd think the point was clear even though the example was inaccurate
  448. # [16:52] <annevk> Ms2ger: so should we use a callback?
  449. # [16:52] <Ms2ger> Come again?
  450. # [16:52] <annevk> Ms2ger: sorry, for the local name + namespace -> interface map
  451. # [16:53] <Ms2ger> Ah
  452. # [16:53] <annevk> Let interface be the element interface for x and y.
  453. # [16:53] <Ms2ger> For createElement?
  454. # [16:54] <Ms2ger> That sounds good enough for me
  455. # [16:54] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|lunch
  456. # [16:54] <annevk> The element interface for x and y is Element, unless stated otherwise. Note: other specifications require otherwise, e.g. for html and http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml you'll get HTMLHtmlElement
  457. # [16:54] <annevk> Ms2ger: also createElementNS, don't think there's anything else, is there?
  458. # [16:55] <Ms2ger> Not as far as I know
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  460. # [16:55] <Ms2ger> I just completely missed that you were talking about those at first :)
  461. # [16:55] <annevk> Well, for me the context was clear, but I should have shared it first :)
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  463. # [16:56] <annevk> I think this is why sometimes people are confused with my blog posts.
  464. # [16:56] <Ms2ger> I should write some more tests
  465. # [16:56] <Ms2ger> Either that or reddit
  466. # [16:56] <annevk> Whoa reddit. I think I'm now almost two weeks without visiting reddit.
  467. # [16:57] <annevk> But given everything else that's going on it's hard to measure the impact of that.
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  474. # [17:14] <annevk> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20775
  475. # [17:14] <annevk> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20776
  476. # [17:14] <annevk> Does MathML use special interfaces?
  477. # [17:15] <annevk> Doesn't look like it
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  479. # [17:15] <annevk> Test used: <math></math><script>w(document.getElementsByTagName("math")[0])</script>
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  488. # [17:23] <Ms2ger> Yeah, there was something of a MathMLElement interface, but it never got implemented
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  508. # [17:53] <Hixie> hsivonen: what's the status in Gecko in terms of making BOMs override the user when the user asks for an encoding override? Leif claims you want to do this.
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  510. # [17:57] <Ms2ger> Hixie, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=234628
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  513. # [18:12] <Hixie> that's about xml
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  516. # [18:13] <Hixie> or at least was for a while?
  517. # [18:13] * ojan_away is now known as ojan
  518. # [18:13] <Hixie> i can't tell what the answer to my question is from that bug
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  523. # [18:17] <Ms2ger> Hmm
  524. # [18:17] <Ms2ger> Maybe it's for polyglot
  525. # [18:18] <Hixie> ok well, either way, this all seems to be UI-specific, so I'll just punt on this.
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  534. # [18:36] <TabAtkins> hsivonen: Jeezus christ, no, don't respond to that email.
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  537. # [18:42] <esprehn_> TabAtkins: ??
  538. # [18:42] <TabAtkins> esprehn_: hsivonen posted a message to www-style about MQs, got several dumb emails amounting to "MQs are dumb, just use fluid design".
  539. # [18:43] <esprehn_> TabAtkins: I do rather enjoy lines of text that span my entire 30in monitor
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  543. # [18:46] <Hixie> wow, talk about unlucky
  544. # [18:46] <Hixie> back on jan 16th i was testing some code i wrote
  545. # [18:46] <Hixie> which converts a Date to a string in the format "day-of-month month", as in, Jan 16
  546. # [18:46] <Hixie> and it worked great!
  547. # [18:47] <Hixie> today I noticed _all_ the days were Jan 16
  548. # [18:47] <MikeSmith> hahaha :-)
  549. # [18:47] <TabAtkins> Hahaha
  550. # [18:47] <Hixie> turns out that the number of seconds from jan 1 1970 to now equals the number of milliseconds from jan 1 1970 to jan 16 1970
  551. # [18:47] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: I already did, but only to the part that posed a question many others might wonder about
  552. # [18:48] <TabAtkins> hsivonen: Now that I've read the rest of the thread, bozo bit flipped on this Fred dude.
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  554. # [18:52] <JonathanNeal> "There is no single combination of containers and codecs that works in all HTML5 browsers." That's not true anymore, is it?
  555. # [18:52] <JonathanNeal> Does webm work in IE10?
  556. # [18:53] <TabAtkins> WebM still doesnt' work in Safari anyway, iirc.
  557. # [18:53] <JonathanNeal> Bummer.
  558. # [18:53] <TabAtkins> WebM can work in IE10 if you've installed the codecs yourself.
  559. # [18:53] <JonathanNeal> "This is not likely to change in the near future." also true?
  560. # [18:53] <TabAtkins> To the best of my knowledge, yes.
  561. # [18:54] <JonathanNeal> Do they all support H.264?
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  563. # [18:54] <TabAtkins> Dunno about Opera. FF... might now, if you have the codecs already on your system.
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  565. # [18:57] <JonathanNeal> Okay, Opera only supports webm and ovg.
  566. # [18:57] <JonathanNeal> *ogv
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  573. # [19:18] <JonathanNeal> Hahaha, just read up on the two year anniversary of Chrome not pulling out H.264 support. http://blog.chromium.org/2011/01/more-about-chrome-html-video-codec.html
  574. # [19:18] <JonathanNeal> But I like H.264.
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  576. # [19:20] <TabAtkins> If it weren't for licensing, I'd have no problems with it.
  577. # [19:20] <TabAtkins> (Though I think WebM is technically better now.)
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  579. # [19:26] <Hixie> Stevef_: you're welcome to participate in the whatwg community, but i would really appreciate it if you would then actually participate, rather than just throwing links to other discussions in every few weeks.
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  584. # [19:29] <Stevef_> hixie: I stated why I pointed to the particular discussion and also pointed to some suggestions I had produced, if you don't want the what wg list members to be aware of discussions affecting HTML in other fora, I will not make them aware via your list.
  585. # [19:29] <Hixie> Stevef_: people who want to be aware of public-html discussions have subscribed to public-html
  586. # [19:30] <Hixie> Stevef_: so if your goal is just to have people be aware of public-html discussions, there's no need
  587. # [19:30] <Hixie> Stevef_: thanks for the consideration, though
  588. # [19:31] <Stevef_> hixie: ok message understood I will not bring up disvussions that have potential to chnage stuff in the HTML 5/5.1 on the whatwg list
  589. # [19:31] <TabAtkins> Dude, don't be purposely difficult.
  590. # [19:31] <Hixie> TabAtkins: let it go, he's gotten way less rude than he used to be
  591. # [19:32] <astearns> s/Dude/Dudes/
  592. # [19:32] <Ms2ger> What he said
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  594. # [19:32] <Hixie> i like the ambiguity of Ms2ger's statement, leaving it unclear if he's supporting tab, me, or astearns :-P
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  596. # [19:33] <Ms2ger> astearns, in fact
  597. # [19:33] <Hixie> seems reasonable :-)
  598. # [19:33] <JonathanNeal> Yea, I have to agree with astearns too. Dude has a point.
  599. # [19:34] <TabAtkins> s/Dude/Dudes/
  600. # [19:34] <Ms2ger> No, just astearns
  601. # [19:34] <TabAtkins> (I just wanted to make your sentence ungrammatical.)
  602. # [19:34] <JonathanNeal> Nope
  603. # [19:35] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Yo, do you call {} "braces" or "brackets"?
  604. # [19:35] <Hixie> braces or curly brackets
  605. # [19:35] <TabAtkins> Haha.
  606. # [19:35] <Hixie> straight brackets, or square brackets, are []
  607. # [19:35] <Hixie> parentheses, or round brackets, are ()
  608. # [19:36] <Hixie> angle brackets, or les conveniently "less than greater than", are <>
  609. # [19:36] <Hixie> less
  610. # [19:36] <Hixie> by "straight brackets" i mean straight "brackets", not the term "straight brackets"
  611. # [19:36] <TabAtkins> Ah, that was unclear.
  612. # [19:37] <TabAtkins> Use "Just" or "Plain" to avoid geometric terms in a situation like this.
  613. # [19:37] <Hixie> yeah
  614. # [19:37] <hober> "the unmarked case"
  615. # [19:37] <Hixie> "plain brackets" are brackets you use to surround fields
  616. # [19:37] <JonathanNeal> I think Hixie and his English would agree with http://www.jonathantneal.com/characters/
  617. # [19:37] <Hixie> as in corn fields, not as in plane fields
  618. # [19:37] <Hixie> also i may be being silly now
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  620. # [19:38] <TabAtkins> plane fields are airplane junkyards.
  621. # [19:38] <Ms2ger> [corn fields]
  622. # [19:38] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: i prefer "octothorpe" for #, though hash is fine too.
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  624. # [19:38] <Hixie> and ` is "backtick", not just "tick"
  625. # [19:38] <Hixie> "?" is "question mark", not "query"
  626. # [19:38] <Hixie> " is "double quote"
  627. # [19:39] <Hixie> | is "vertical bar"
  628. # [19:39] <Ms2ger> Oh dear
  629. # [19:39] <TabAtkins> Next controversial pronunciation question: is "char" pronounced with a soft ch like "chair", or a hard ch like "character"? And is it a long ar like "bar", or a soft ar like "bare"?
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  631. # [19:39] <JonathanNeal> It is a double quote, but when someone says quote I first think of ". The section just to the right of that clarifies it.
  632. # [19:39] <Hixie> and ! is only "bang" if you're reading it as part of something else
  633. # [19:39] <Hixie> TabAtkins: "char" is pronounced "car" in my world, because it's shart for "character".
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  635. # [19:40] <TabAtkins> ...shart?
  636. # [19:40] <Hixie> uh
  637. # [19:40] <Hixie> short
  638. # [19:40] <Hixie> dvorak typo
  639. # [19:40] <Hixie> (or a weird british accent, your choice)
  640. # [19:40] <TabAtkins> So, becuase it's short for character, you still don't pronounce it like "character". (Wrong vowel.)
  641. # [19:41] <Hixie> yeah, the "a" is weird. dunno why. (note i don't pronounce the first "a" in "character" as either "bar" or "bare")
  642. # [19:42] <Hixie> i pronounce it more like the norwegian ae ligature character
  643. # [19:42] <Hixie> like "hat"
  644. # [19:42] <JonathanNeal> I will find a way to get everyone agreeing on this language, by golly.
  645. # [19:42] <Hixie> hah
  646. # [19:42] <Hixie> good luck with that
  647. # [19:42] <Hixie> afk
  648. # [19:43] <JonathanNeal> "char" as in "chardonnay"
  649. # [19:43] <TabAtkins> Just swap both phonemes to the wrong one?
  650. # [19:43] * GPHemsley pronounces "char" like it reads, ignoring any relationship to "character"
  651. # [19:43] * TabAtkins too.
  652. # [19:44] <JonathanNeal> I pronounce it like charcoal.
  653. # [19:44] <TabAtkins> Like the english word "char".
  654. # [19:44] * GPHemsley scrolls back to find out what this conversation is about.
  655. # [19:44] <TabAtkins> How Hixie names the {} characters.
  656. # [19:45] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@50-0-133-210.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  657. # [19:45] <GPHemsley> () = parentheses; [] = square brackets; {} = curly braces; <> = angle brackets
  658. # [19:45] <GPHemsley> # depends on contexts, probably hash nowadays
  659. # [19:46] <GPHemsley> ` = backtick; ? = question mark; " = double quotes; | = vertical bar
  660. # [19:46] <JonathanNeal> The context is as independent characters in web programming
  661. # [19:46] <JonathanNeal> GPHemsley http://jonathantneal.com/characters/
  662. # [19:47] <TabAtkins> Also, more or less how you would read the character if encountering it in code that you're reading out to another coder.
  663. # [19:47] <GPHemsley> ! = exclamation point, except for hashbang
  664. # [19:47] <TabAtkins> Frex, while I name | as "vertical bar", I'd just call it "bar" casually.
  665. # [19:47] <GPHemsley> ! can also be "not" in certain contexts
  666. # [19:47] <GPHemsley> like != = "not equals"
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  668. # [19:48] <GPHemsley> * = star or asterisk
  669. # [19:49] <GPHemsley> interestingly, I don't seem to think of < and > as open and close
  670. # [19:50] <GPHemsley> I don't use shorthand "paren" or "dollar"; it's "parenthesis" and "dollar sign"
  671. # [19:50] <GPHemsley> I think the rest are OK
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  677. # [19:52] <JonathanNeal> Thanks GPHemsley. It is interesting to learn how many different ways we identify these characters.
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  680. # [19:52] <GPHemsley> It's also interesting, because I'm not used to saying these things out loud
  681. # [19:53] <GPHemsley> so, for example, how do you pronounce "admin"?
  682. # [19:53] <JonathanNeal> "add men"
  683. # [19:53] <JonathanNeal> yourself?
  684. # [19:53] <TabAtkins> Like "administrator" without the suffix?
  685. # [19:53] <TabAtkins> Oh, and stress moved to the first syllable, per stadnard English rules.
  686. # [19:54] <JonathanNeal> I wish the stress was moved to the first syllable in paren.
  687. # [19:54] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: It is when I say it.
  688. # [19:54] <JonathanNeal> Do you say "puh ren" or "per en"?
  689. # [19:55] <TabAtkins> GPHemsley: I started expicitly shortening "parenthesis" when I started saying it more, because the repeated th/s phonemes are tongue-twisters.
  690. # [19:55] <TabAtkins> "pair en".
  691. # [19:55] <JonathanNeal> Interesting, and I call them "per en".
  692. # [19:55] <TabAtkins> Pronouncing it like it was a new word, unrelated to the context from which it was shortened.
  693. # [19:56] <GPHemsley> TabAtkins: Yeah, see, I don't do the stress movement.
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  695. # [19:56] <TabAtkins> (I pronounce a lot of initialisms too, which requires some creativity due to them breaking spelling rules.)
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  698. # [19:56] <GPHemsley> Also at play here is the Mary/marry/merry distinction/merger
  699. # [19:56] <TabAtkins> CSS = SEH-sis, HTML = HUH-tuh-mul
  700. # [19:56] <GPHemsley> oh wow
  701. # [19:57] <TabAtkins> GPHemsley: Yeah, the sound definitely falls into that merger.
  702. # [19:57] <TabAtkins> Or HEH-tim-mul, I guess, now that I say it out loud.
  703. # [19:57] <Ms2ger> What-wig?
  704. # [19:57] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  705. # [19:57] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins: whoooooa
  706. # [19:57] <JonathanNeal> "png" as in "ping", gif with a g as in "guide".
  707. # [19:57] <GPHemsley> yikes
  708. # [19:57] <TabAtkins> Yup.
  709. # [19:58] <GPHemsley> SEE ess ess; aitch tee EM ell; what double you jee
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  711. # [19:58] <GPHemsley> PNG is usually pee enn jee
  712. # [19:58] <JonathanNeal> GPHemsley: ++
  713. # [19:58] <JonathanNeal> except for PNG
  714. # [19:59] <GPHemsley> but I'm a soft G GIFfer
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  716. # [20:00] <JonathanNeal> Webemm?
  717. # [20:00] <GPHemsley> sounds good
  718. # [20:01] <TabAtkins> Webimm.
  719. # [20:01] <JonathanNeal> Speaking of which, I want to change the recommended order of encoding videos from "Webm, ogg, h.264" to "Webm, h.264, ogg", because of the current state of support. What do you think?
  720. # [20:01] <TabAtkins> Well, I think that's my merger talking. Webemm is probably a better spelling.
  721. # [20:01] <GPHemsley> oh, then there's the pin/pen merger
  722. # [20:01] <JonathanNeal> ogg isn't really necessary in a post Firefox 3.5 - Opera 10.5 world.
  723. # [20:02] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: Yes, that's fine. Using *just* WebM and h.264 is sufficient.
  724. # [20:03] <TabAtkins> Iirc, you can do the same two-codec dance with audio, too. MP3 works in several, but I forget which free format covers the remainder.
  725. # [20:07] <JonathanNeal> Neither do I, but I suspect its ogv.
  726. # [20:07] <TabAtkins> Likely.
  727. # [20:07] <TabAtkins> Since Opera and FF both like Ogg.
  728. # [20:07] <TabAtkins> And I think everyone else does MP3
  729. # [20:08] <Ms2ger> Wave?
  730. # [20:09] <TabAtkins> Come now, be serious.
  731. # [20:11] <JonathanNeal> *waves back*
  732. # [20:11] <Stevef_> hixie: FYI i pointed to html list for context i pointed to http://www.html5accessibility.com/tests/comments.html which is some ideas and explanation i put together, so didn't merely throw a link
  733. # [20:12] <JonathanNeal> http://diveintohtml5.info/video.html#video-containers also fails to mention wmf, but does mention avi
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  735. # [20:16] <pablof> this is bringing the metafilter pronunciation survey to mind, http://metatalk.metafilter.com/21984/2012-MetaFilter-Survey-and-Research-Discussion-Thread
  736. # [20:17] <JonathanNeal> wmv, sorry.
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  738. # [20:20] <Ms2ger> Mailing lists are a support forum anyway
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  747. # [20:35] <tantek> Ms2ger++
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  773. # [21:09] <jgraham> The correct prnounciation of "{}" is "thank goodness I'm not using a Swedish keyboard". At least that's what I say if I have to type them and read what I'm doing aloud
  774. # [21:10] <jgraham> Although probably "goodness" isn't quite right
  775. # [21:10] <TabAtkins> Good thing about CSS is that it uses enough punctuation to lock us into caring about a fairly narrow set of keyboards, so we've got a decent idea of what other glyphs we can use.
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  777. # [21:14] <jgraham> I am really surprised that so many people don't just switch to something more programmer-friendly for writing code. I mean it isn't really *fair* that programming languages were invented in English-speaking countries and used the symbols that are easy to access on the corresponding keyboard, but having to reach for AltGr all the time must suck. In fact I think sometimes you need three-key combinations
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  779. # [21:19] <esprehn_> jgraham: I'd assume most editors fill stuff in automatically
  780. # [21:22] <jgraham> esprehn_: Not really, I mean some will ad a losing brace if you put in an opening one, but you can't do much more than that
  781. # [21:22] <JonathanNeal> Ah, the "fairness" of coding languages.
  782. # [21:22] <jgraham> *add a closing
  783. # [21:23] <JonathanNeal> Seeking any kind of sweeping cultural fairness (especially in technology) as a policy is flawed, I think inherently.
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  785. # [21:24] <Ms2ger> But we need to be fair!
  786. # [21:24] <Ms2ger> And have unicode case insensitivity!
  787. # [21:25] <JonathanNeal> Effectively, the engineers of HTML and CSS hijacked english, and it is now part of their trade language. Now, due to their similarities, english and web terminology will affect each other.
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  789. # [21:28] <JonathanNeal> I saw a video recently of an arabic programming language. I think that's really cool. I understand the potential advantages. I understand the linguistic advantage of dropping English and speaking Esperanto.
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  791. # [21:29] <JonathanNeal> But it's just not practical, given the human experience and human limitation. </html5:rant>
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  793. # [21:31] <Ms2ger> And it's a lot more convenient than Arabic for us, no?
  794. # [21:33] <jgraham> (I believe that esperanto isn't considered very theoretically good)
  795. # [21:33] <gsnedders> (Indeed.)
  796. # [21:33] <jgraham> (The future is supposed to be more like http://www.exocomics.com/101 )
  797. # [21:33] <gsnedders> (There is no language that is theoretically good, because sociolinguistic pressures always cause deviation)
  798. # [21:34] <jgraham> Well yes, that's one issue
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  803. # [21:37] <JonathanNeal> say "pacific ocean" and give the "c" the same sound every time.
  804. # [21:37] <jgraham> why?
  805. # [21:42] <JonathanNeal> y?
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  827. # [22:53] <JonathanNeal> Do you call ‹ a chevron? That's not <, mind you. Or do you call it an angle quotation, something else?
  828. # [22:53] <TabAtkins> I don't know what the character is, exactly.
  829. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> Is it the french quotation mark?
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  831. # [22:55] <TabAtkins> The only thing I call a chevron is the symbol used in military ranks.
  832. # [22:55] <JonathanNeal> It's from http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-entities-961125#entspecial It may be the french one, it goes by the name guillemet.
  833. # [22:56] <TabAtkins> Ah, kk. In that case, I call it a guillemet, or "single french quotation mark, you know, the angle thingies".
  834. # [22:56] <JonathanNeal> Wikipedia calls it "Double angle quote (chevron, guillemet, duck-foot quote), left"
  835. # [22:57] <TabAtkins> But I don't actually refer to it in any meaningful amount, outside of discussing the internationalization of quotation marks in CSS, so the name I give it doesn't matter much.
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  837. # [22:58] <JonathanNeal> And the guillemet has two. Okay.
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  841. # [23:03] <JonathanNeal> Yea, we don't use any of these when writing structural HTML, CSS, or JavaScript
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  844. # [23:04] <esprehn_> chevron is just a generic term for things that look like like < and > or stripes
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  846. # [23:04] <esprehn_> the military rank bars are chevrons even if they're straight lines
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  848. # [23:07] <esprehn_> Hixie: what's the reason for webvtt being an entirely new language instead of just XML or HTML?
  849. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> esprehn_: It's not an entirely new language - it's a close cousin to an existing subtitle format.
  850. # [23:08] <TabAtkins> (And I think plain VTT is still parseable as WebVTT for the most part.)
  851. # [23:08] <esprehn_> mm
  852. # [23:08] <TabAtkins> s/existing/existing and very popular/
  853. # [23:09] <esprehn_> This feels like it should have been XML with a mapping from the XML ns to the HTML ns, the wormhole is very unfortunate
  854. # [23:09] <esprehn_> ex i { color: red; } ::cue(i) { color: blue }
  855. # [23:09] <esprehn_> the design is confusing
  856. # [23:09] <TabAtkins> What wormhole? It's an embedded document. No embedded documents are targetable directly from the outside document.
  857. # [23:10] <esprehn_> oh I see, these things are not actually elements
  858. # [23:10] <esprehn_> hmm
  859. # [23:11] <esprehn_> dgorbik: I'm not sure this implementation you have makes sense
  860. # [23:11] <esprehn_> in the spec they're not Elements or even HTMLElements
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  862. # [23:11] <esprehn_> they're just a logical tree that produces a rendered result that you can then convert to HTML in the form of a DocumentFragment
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  864. # [23:12] <esprehn_> TabAtkins: yeah, now that I read this spec more closely...
  865. # [23:13] <esprehn_> TabAtkins: the web VTT universe is not really even a DOM universe
  866. # [23:13] <TabAtkins> esprehn_: Right, it's not DOM, but it's close enough that it's mappable into a document tree for CSS.
  867. # [23:14] <TabAtkins> It *could* be made into full DOM.
  868. # [23:14] <TabAtkins> It has all the necessary abstractions.
  869. # [23:15] <esprehn_> yeah
  870. # [23:15] <JonathanNeal> needs moar <!doctype subtitle>
  871. # [23:17] <nimbu1> bleh welcome to web word esprehn_ everything is just 'close enough' to everything else
  872. # [23:17] <esprehn_> heh
  873. # [23:17] * Joins: SimonSapin (~simon@ip-22.net-89-2-144.rev.numericable.fr)
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  878. # [23:29] <dgorbik> esprehn_: there is no other way to have CSS matching and rendering without using Elements obviously
  879. # [23:30] <esprehn_> dgorbik: yes but the webvtt node tree can be a tree of very light weight nodes that just maps to the resulting HTMLElements that live in the shadow
  880. # [23:30] <Hixie> esprehn_: it's essentially SRT
  881. # [23:31] <esprehn_> dgorbik: think of this as if you were implementing it in JS, you'd have a tree of JS objects for the VTT nodes, and the DOM would contain HTML nodes
  882. # [23:31] <Hixie> esprehn_: but as a general rule, XML is a disaster, and HTML more so, so that's why not to reuse those. :-)
  883. # [23:32] <dgorbik> esprehn_: I am not sure how that would be different from reusing Nodes and Elements and all this infrustructure. Why should we invent trees again?
  884. # [23:33] <esprehn_> dgorbik: because what you're doing requires a lot of special hackery and being very careful
  885. # [23:34] * Quits: Maurice` (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  886. # [23:34] <jgraham> In case any HTMLWG chairs are listening "You really don't know much about this field, do you?" is the point at which you start applying whatever etiquette policy we have.
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  889. # [23:35] <dgorbik> esprehn_: I still will not be able to build a tree for rendering purposed (in shadow dom) with those lightwait objects.
  890. # [23:35] <dgorbik> purposes*
  891. # [23:35] <esprehn_> dgorbik: ex ::cue(i[style]) should not match, but clearly would if you just used an inline style.
  892. # [23:36] <JonathanNeal> I get so used to functions that don't exist.
  893. # [23:36] <JonathanNeal> Element.prototype.forEach.
  894. # [23:37] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|away
  895. # [23:37] <dgorbik> esprehn_: are you trying to say that inline styles will introduce some other problems like this?
  896. # [23:37] <esprehn_> dgorbik: when you implement that nested selector matching you'll need to be careful
  897. # [23:38] <esprehn_> I guess either approach is fine
  898. # [23:38] <esprehn_> creating elements in the html namesape that are not HTMLElement certainly isn't :)
  899. # [23:39] <dgorbik> esprehn_: which one is the second approach? the first one is to use inline styles and separate tags
  900. # [23:40] <esprehn_> dgorbik: to create a separate tree, produce real HTML elements, and stick a scoped stylesheet down in the shadow.
  901. # [23:40] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@c-71-202-165-226.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: heading in now)
  902. # [23:40] <esprehn_> I guess you're someone stuck since <v> is not an HTML element :/
  903. # [23:40] * Quits: linclark (~clark@c-67-186-35-246.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Quit: linclark)
  904. # [23:40] <esprehn_> somewhat*
  905. # [23:41] <esprehn_> sigh
  906. # [23:41] <esprehn_> dgorbik: just fix the namespace and use an inline style for now
  907. # [23:42] <esprehn_> Hixie: my issue is that we're going to bloat the browser terribly if every new thing invents a new format
  908. # [23:43] <esprehn_> I suppose if this format already exists :)
  909. # [23:43] <zewt> <v> generates a <span title=voice> DOM node, not a <v> element
  910. # [23:43] <Hixie> esprehn_: i don't think supporting new dedicated formats is a substantial source of code complexity or size, especially relative to the alternatives
  911. # [23:44] <Hixie> zewt: the only time <v> generates <span title=voice> is if you use the method that converts WebVTT to HTML, but that's not really likely to be used much
  912. # [23:44] <esprehn_> zewt: not in the tree dgorbik is producing, because he wants ::cue(v) to match without extra work
  913. # [23:44] <Hixie> zewt: in particular, that isn't relevant to the rendering part
  914. # [23:45] <zewt> Hixie: he said "produce real HTML elements", so that seems like the only sane thing to do
  915. # [23:45] <esprehn_> yes
  916. # [23:46] <zewt> esprehn_: you'll (he'll) have to do some extra work no matter what, since ::cue doesn't exist outside of WebVTT in the first place (right?)
  917. # [23:46] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@c-67-188-109-7.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  918. # [23:47] <dgorbik> esprehn_, Hixie: this is a balance between having a unified markup or having a more suitable language for each purpose (and easier for the end user). The problem that this webvtt thing is not convertible in terms of syntax to html markup because it introduces its small differences. So we try to reuse existing html objects but also add something new to them.
  919. # [23:50] <esprehn_> zewt: yeah, it's a question of which machinery you want to change
  920. # [23:50] <Hixie> dgorbik: imho "unified markup" has been convincingly demonstrated to be a fool's errand. :-)
  921. # [23:50] <Hixie> zewt: i don't understand the relevance of HTML elements to WebVTT
  922. # [23:50] <esprehn_> principally this whole feature is like glorified generated content, like if you could ask an HTMLElement to produce the equivalent html for the :before or :after pseudo elements
  923. # [23:51] <esprehn_> perhaps such a mapping should even exist
  924. # [23:53] <dgorbik> When we try to mimic webvtt rendering by using htmlelements latter start to imply their own meaning (like style attribute like esprehn_ mentioned). That makes this even harder
  925. # [23:54] <dgorbik> Hixie: well, it may be less or more unified, it's just a matter of balance
  926. # [23:55] <zewt> not sure what you mean by the style attribute; webvtt's dom construction rules never create style attributes
  927. # [23:55] <Hixie> don't try to mimic webvtt rendering by using html elements, why would you do that?
  928. # [23:55] <esprehn_> zewt: he's talking about a webkit implementation detail
  929. # [23:56] <esprehn_> the one that I'm questioning
  930. # [23:56] <zewt> what detail is that, again?
  931. # [23:56] <dgorbik> Hixie: is mimicing webvtt rendering by using just elements or styledelements is fine though? :
  932. # [23:56] <dgorbik> :)
  933. # [23:56] <Hixie> i wouldn't mimic webvtt rendering at all :-)
  934. # [23:56] <Hixie> just render webvtt directly
  935. # [23:57] <Hixie> why would you use any kind of dom elements?
  936. # [23:57] <esprehn_> Hixie: because that's how selector matching works for things like ::cue(v) { ... } and anonymous renderers like those this would create are very problematic, specifically the text inside them is not selectable
  937. # [23:57] <dgorbik> esprehn_: does this mean that Hixie suggests having a separate tree we attach to and produce a RenderTree?
  938. # [23:58] <esprehn_> dgorbik: yes
  939. # [23:58] <dgorbik> yep, selector matching still will not work in this case.
  940. # [23:58] <Hixie> i don't understand what selector matching has to do with elements, other than as a historical implementation detail
  941. # [23:58] <Hixie> nothing in CSS requires that it be matched against DOMs only
  942. # [23:58] <Hixie> any tree with named nodes is fine
  943. # [23:58] <esprehn_> Hixie: That
  944. # [23:58] <esprehn_> That's just not how webkit works
  945. # [23:59] <esprehn_> and there's no way they're going to make the selector matching engine generic as you describe
  946. # [23:59] <Hixie> so fix webkit
  947. # [23:59] <esprehn_> it's extremely optimized for very specific use cases
  948. # [23:59] <dgorbik> only HTMLElements are related to DOM directly as far as I understand. Just Element implements some traits of html elements but can be used elsewhere. Is this right?
  949. # [23:59] <Hixie> so optimise it for two use cases :-)
  950. # Session Close: Sat Jan 26 00:00:01 2013

The end :)