/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-02-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Feb 12 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [00:16] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins: so you didn't like my error handling then?
  9. # [00:17] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: I haven't read your blog post yet.
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  38. # [01:01] <TabAtkins> zewt: "I am sorry for both", hahaha
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  43. # [01:13] <zewt> TabAtkins: even ratcheting up second-language leniency, this guy is ... trying
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  121. # [05:51] <MikeSmith> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=22339#c24
  122. # [05:52] <MikeSmith> from Jungshik
  123. # [05:52] <MikeSmith> "there are two 'pseudo-Unicode/font-based encodings' widely used for Burmese/Myanmar. In a sense, it's even worse because the pages are apparently in UTF-8 but Unicode code points are interpreted differently than what's specified by Unicode."
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  128. # [06:25] <kochi> MikeSmith: hi
  129. # [06:25] <kochi> MikeSmith: sorry for not updating the status, but we are still discussing details...
  130. # [06:26] <kochi> but I've updated the IME API draft in mercurial with some changes which are being discussed.
  131. # [06:28] <MikeSmith> kochi: no worries, man. Stuff takes time.
  132. # [06:30] <kochi> MikeSmith: thanks. I would like to post the draft as early as possible to start discussion.
  133. # [06:30] <MikeSmith> ok
  134. # [06:32] <kochi> MikeSmith: i missed you at the office last week :)
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  138. # [06:44] <MikeSmith> kochi: yeah, had a fun lunch with Kenji and Zack and Dominic
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  184. # [09:07] <MikeSmith> is slightlyoff's DOM Futures stuff something that's a potential candidate for standardization? (eventually, I mean)
  185. # [09:07] <MikeSmith> https://github.com/slightlyoff/DOMFuture
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  187. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> oh, I guess it is, for standardization in JavaScript
  188. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> eventual subsetting by
  189. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> https://github.com/slightlyoff/DOMFuture/blob/master/DOMFuture.idl#L27
  190. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> "eventual subsetting by TC39 for adding Futures to the language directly"
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  201. # [09:51] <annevk> MikeSmith: yeah, will prolly add that to DOM at some point
  202. # [09:51] <MikeSmith> ah OK
  203. # [09:51] <annevk> MikeSmith: once it's stable enough
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  206. # [09:56] <jgraham> annevk: Saying 'throw a "SyntaxError"' reads weirdly to me. I was expecting the word "exception" and had to backtrack when I didn't find it.
  207. # [09:57] <annevk> you mean there's no "exception" after that?
  208. # [09:57] <annevk> because I think that's a bug, unless I changed conventions
  209. # [09:58] <jgraham> I was looking at http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-mutationobserver-observe
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  211. # [09:59] <annevk> Yeah that text was not from me and I didn't catch it
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  220. # [10:23] <slightlyoff> MikeSmith: so The Plan (TM) is that we get the event-loving version into DOM and get a version without events into JS, lining one up as the superclass and the other as the subclass
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  223. # [10:33] <MikeSmith> ah OK, that's what you mean by "eventual subsetting", I guess
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  225. # [10:43] <annevk> slightlyoff: looks I'll be missing yet another TAG telcon
  226. # [10:43] <annevk> not that the minutes made them look appealing...
  227. # [10:44] <slightlyoff> Sorry to hear that.
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  238. # [11:13] <annevk> Ms2ger: what happened to https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=660660 ?
  239. # [11:14] <Ms2ger> Other stuff taking up my time
  240. # [11:18] <jgraham> Nice bug number
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  243. # [11:24] <Ms2ger> Not an accident :)
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  247. # [11:29] <jgraham> You only file in cute bug numbers? "Have a remote code exploit, but waiting for bug 654321 to file it"
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  252. # [11:40] <annevk> The custom element interaction with createElement is really ugly :/
  253. # [11:40] <annevk> dglazkov: slightlyoff: if we don't like createElement, why are we trying to make it work?
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  255. # [11:50] <annevk> Ms2ger: that's too bad
  256. # [11:50] <annevk> Ms2ger: DOM is still riddled with comments regarding both Attr and that
  257. # [11:51] <annevk> Ms2ger: and a couple of other things
  258. # [11:57] <annevk> Wait, custom names only have to match Name?
  259. # [11:57] <annevk> So you can have <xml:troll-:::> or some such?
  260. # [11:58] <annevk> or even :-:
  261. # [11:58] <annevk> I wish ) was allowed
  262. # [11:59] <annevk> :-P
  263. # [11:59] <Ms2ger> <:)>
  264. # [12:00] <annevk> you're lacking a dash
  265. # [12:00] <annevk> it's required
  266. # [12:00] <odinho> <:-)> cool tag
  267. # [12:01] <jgraham> But the correct match would be <:-(></:-)>
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  269. # [12:02] <annevk> again, ) is not a valid code point
  270. # [12:02] <annevk> anyway, filed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20973
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  272. # [12:02] <slightlyoff> annevk: its actually not that bad. We have a solution on the JS side for the worst bits.
  273. # [12:02] <slightlyoff> As for why...because reality and legacy
  274. # [12:02] <jgraham> annevk: We know :p
  275. # [12:03] <annevk> slightlyoff: what legacy?
  276. # [12:03] <annevk> slightlyoff: and it's pretty bad
  277. # [12:04] <annevk> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/custom/index.html#monkeypatch-create-element is no good
  278. # [12:08] * slightlyoff looks
  279. # [12:09] <slightlyoff> I don't understand what's wrong about formalizing the "your shadow tree creation and finalization methods will be called"?
  280. # [12:09] <slightlyoff> unless the argument is that the lifecycle should be internally driven, e.g., from the ctor
  281. # [12:10] <slightlyoff> (which was the case in one of my early designs)
  282. # [12:10] <annevk> What's wrong is monkeypatching createElement() with magic
  283. # [12:10] <slightlyoff> so
  284. # [12:10] <slightlyoff> 1.) it's not magic
  285. # [12:10] <slightlyoff> it's an explanation of something that already happens in elements
  286. # [12:10] <slightlyoff> e.g., if I create a new <input> type, a shadow dom is created...when? how? MAGIC!
  287. # [12:11] <slightlyoff> this says "it happens here"
  288. # [12:11] <slightlyoff> and we can explain existing stuff better
  289. # [12:11] <slightlyoff> so that's anti-magic
  290. # [12:11] <slightlyoff> 2.) it's not monkey-patching per-sae
  291. # [12:11] <annevk> I wonder if what you state there is actually true.
  292. # [12:11] <slightlyoff> it's outlining the extensibility point
  293. # [12:11] <slightlyoff> there's a debate about if these things happen inside our outside of constructors
  294. # [12:11] <annevk> Typically existing stuff has weird requirements that are not well understood.
  295. # [12:11] <slightlyoff> e.g., if createElement("textarea") de-sugars to:
  296. # [12:11] <annevk> And we haven't exactly flushed that out yet.
  297. # [12:12] <slightlyoff> var ta = new HTMLTextAreaElement();
  298. # [12:12] <slightlyoff> the question is:
  299. # [12:12] <slightlyoff> does the constructor itself call the appropriate lifecycle methods?
  300. # [12:12] <slightlyoff> or does createElement also do:
  301. # [12:12] <slightlyoff> ta.initializeShadowRoot();
  302. # [12:12] <slightlyoff> ta.finalize();
  303. # [12:12] <slightlyoff> i.e., who drives the lifecycle
  304. # [12:13] <slightlyoff> *that* is the debate
  305. # [12:13] <annevk> The constructor should.
  306. # [12:13] <slightlyoff> and I could go both ways on it
  307. # [12:13] <annevk> Otherwise new Image() doesn't work the way it does now.
  308. # [12:13] <annevk> Or new Audio()
  309. # [12:13] <annevk> We already have element constructors that are equivalent to their createElement call
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  311. # [12:15] <slightlyoff> ok, so I think that's a strong argument
  312. # [12:15] <slightlyoff> we should go have this debate with dglazkov then = )
  313. # [12:15] <annevk> I guess I can post to public-webapps
  314. # [12:16] <slightlyoff> I don't know that the "new Image()" pun was part of my design thinking for the early drafts, but it does make a nice case
  315. # [12:16] <slightlyoff> my early designs had a superclass ctor and/or public initialization method
  316. # [12:16] <slightlyoff> the objections to the latter is that it clutters the public API of the component with lifecycle gunk
  317. # [12:16] <slightlyoff> the objection to the former is that not calling super() is now hazardous to an element's health
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  320. # [12:19] <slightlyoff> the objection to an external lifecycle driver is that it requires that elements be robust against lifecycle extensions and that you now have what might appear to be 'magic' if you're just sitting there looking at the code for a class
  321. # [12:19] <slightlyoff> i.e., you need to understand what some other system you're interacting with will do to/with you
  322. # [12:21] <slightlyoff> moving locations...back in a bit
  323. # [12:22] <annevk> slightlyoff: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013JanMar/0371.html
  324. # [12:22] <annevk> slightlyoff: might be better to elaborate there
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  327. # [12:30] <annevk> Hmm, <template><script> has magic too
  328. # [12:30] <annevk> euh
  329. # [12:30] <annevk> <element><script>
  330. # [12:30] <annevk> but <element><b><script> does not...
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  332. # [12:32] <slightlyoff> annevk: not sure I understand...you mean <element> script invokes the script with special expectations?
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  334. # [12:32] <slightlyoff> annevk: I think I had argued that it should have some distinguishing attribute
  335. # [12:32] <annevk> it ignores async/defer
  336. # [12:32] <slightlyoff> but I'm not fussed
  337. # [12:33] <slightlyoff> ahhh
  338. # [12:33] <slightlyoff> good point
  339. # [12:33] <annevk> but only if it's a child
  340. # [12:33] <annevk> so <element><shadow><script> would be different, but maybe <shadow> has its own set of rules
  341. # [12:34] <slightlyoff> so the the seemingly strange thing is that it modifies script to be context aware
  342. # [12:34] <slightlyoff> I think that's what we should fix
  343. # [12:34] <jgraham> Oh wow, monkeypatch heaven
  344. # [12:34] <slightlyoff> <script constructorFor="elementId">
  345. # [12:34] <slightlyoff> or similar
  346. # [12:34] <Ms2ger> jgraham, can you deal with https://github.com/w3c/html-testsuite/pull/26#issuecomment-13428637 ?
  347. # [12:34] <annevk> It's also probably because I've not been part of the design phase, so I've no idea what the considerations were and it all looks kinda funky
  348. # [12:35] <annevk> I've had the same looking at the font loading proposal this morning
  349. # [12:35] <slightlyoff> annevk: it's good to get these things aired
  350. # [12:35] <slightlyoff> annevk: and even if it's just replaying the arguments from our perspective to get everyone on board, it's still a good thing
  351. # [12:36] <slightlyoff> if only because it gives me the chance to argue against soem magic I didn't vote for the first time around = )
  352. # [12:36] <jgraham> Ms2ger: So I really should be getting notifications on that repo. I guess darobin needs to add me to it or something though
  353. # [12:36] <annevk> slightlyoff: cunning
  354. # [12:36] <jgraham> Ms2ger: I guess I can fix that today sometime
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  368. # [13:49] <annevk> Hmm, given http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-element's-base-url maybe DOM should define xml:base
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  376. # [13:57] <Ms2ger> jgraham, ta
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  395. # [14:35] <karlcow> http://relogo.org/
  396. # [14:35] <karlcow> >rel="logo" is a proposed standard for serving and maintaining up-to-date logos for use in various media.
  397. # [14:35] <karlcow> proposed where?
  398. # [14:35] <Ms2ger> Right there
  399. # [14:35] * Joins: krawchyk (~krawchyk@65.220.49.251)
  400. # [14:35] <Ms2ger> And probably nowhere else
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  403. # [14:41] <annevk> euhm icon?
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  409. # [14:57] <MikeSmith> hmm I find that Vine videos don't display at all in Chromium that I build from sources but do display in Chrome Canary and normal Chrome. I wonder they wouldn't work in my local build. I can view other videos just find. What's different about Vide videos?
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  411. # [14:57] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Sounds like a feature
  412. # [14:58] <MikeSmith> heh
  413. # [14:58] <MikeSmith> I wanna see the cats man
  414. # [14:59] <annevk> MikeSmith: Chrome comes with Flash
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  417. # [15:01] <MikeSmith> ah Flash
  418. # [15:01] <MikeSmith> dinnet know
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  424. # [15:02] <MikeSmith> wait but if it's Flash that means you can't view Vine videos in the i0S browser either
  425. # [15:03] <jgraham> Unless they UA switch or summat
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  427. # [15:07] <MikeSmith> hmm it's not Flash in Chrome. it's HTML video. But .mp4. So I guess it must be that Chromium doesn't do H.264
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  430. # [15:24] <jgraham> MikeSmith: It doesn't
  431. # [15:24] <jgraham> But it's OK, Google are going to remove that!
  432. # [15:24] <jgraham> (is that joke even funny anymore?)
  433. # [15:24] <Ms2ger> Well, Opera had it first
  434. # [15:25] <MikeSmith> heh
  435. # [15:25] <jgraham> Ms2ger: A sense of humor?
  436. # [15:26] <Ms2ger> Hah: http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/42864050694/dept-of-epiphanies-benedict-realizes-where
  437. # [15:27] <MikeSmith> so the user experience sucks as far as making it clear that it doesn't support it. All you get is black. No "You're browser can't display this video." But I guess for the 0.0001% of the people in the universe who are running Chromium it's not big whoop.
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  439. # [15:29] <Ms2ger> "You're"?
  440. # [15:29] <zewt> awooga awooga
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  442. # [15:31] <MikeSmith> good catch, lemme correct that
  443. # [15:31] <MikeSmith> ""You're browser can't display this video."
  444. # [15:31] <MikeSmith> oops
  445. # [15:32] <MikeSmith> "You're a browser that can't display this video."
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  447. # [15:32] <MikeSmith> it's a message to the browser, not to the user
  448. # [15:32] <MikeSmith> that's kind of the way they llike to do things in Chromium
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  450. # [15:32] <MikeSmith> they find it easier to talk to the machines than the people
  451. # [15:33] <jgraham> You're a little browser short and stout?
  452. # [15:33] <zewt> at least the machines might listen
  453. # [15:33] <MikeSmith> HEY BROWSER YU NO CANT DISPLAY THIS VIDEO??
  454. # [15:34] <zewt> they should put a button that randomly appears in chrome with big red text "clicking this button will delete all your stuff", just to do stats on how many people click it
  455. # [15:34] <MikeSmith> machines like to be spoken to in all caps, from early on in computing history. Lowercase is a fad.
  456. # [15:35] <MikeSmith> zewt: I would click just out of curiosity, to see if there's any bugs in their delete-all-my-stuff implementation
  457. # [15:35] <darobin> I always said we needed Uppercase XHTML
  458. # [15:36] <darobin> the content type for which would of course simply be APPLICATION/XHTML+XML
  459. # [15:39] <MikeSmith> that makes me think for polyglot we should have a content-type with mixed case -- text/pOLyGloT
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  461. # [15:40] <MikeSmith> or something more descriptive like text/IamPolYgLotPleAseLoVeMeAnDtReatWithCaRe
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  464. # [15:41] <annevk> A MIME type for polyglot? What universe is this?
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  467. # [15:43] <MikeSmith> it's called the Good Times Universe. It's kind of like the Marvel Universe, except with Good Times instead of costumed superheros
  468. # [15:43] <jgraham> annevk: As I said yesterday, this is bizzaroverse in which governments make annoucements on Facebook and polyglot is not only a fabulous idea but needs its own MIME type
  469. # [15:43] <MikeSmith> hah
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  471. # [15:43] <annevk> Can I have a pet hippo?
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  474. # [15:47] <jgraham> No, but you can have a pet hippie. Will that do?
  475. # [15:47] <MikeSmith> annevk: speaking of Good Times I hope you guys that are part of the incoming Papal regime end up doing your own brand of hobbyhorse lobbying for stuff the way the previous Pope was so fond of stuff like Polyglot and making us create a separate language-without-UA-requirements HTML spec and that kind of stuff
  476. # [15:48] <annevk> MikeSmith is enough pet hippie for me jgraham. I'd much rather have a pet hippo. And come to think of it, some place to put it, because my studio is not a good fit for a hippo :-)
  477. # [15:48] <MikeSmith> cause that's the kind of stuff I love spending my time on, for years and years and years
  478. # [15:49] <annevk> MikeSmith: we'd hate to disappoint
  479. # [15:49] <MikeSmith> get a tiny hippo. They make them in different sizes these days. pygmy hippo is one size that's a good for London studio apartments
  480. # [15:50] <darobin> annevk: they make smaller sizes precisely for the likes of you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmy_hippopotamus
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  482. # [15:50] <darobin> see what happens when you get MikeSmith and I working together? inside of a few months we're both suggesting pygmy hippos
  483. # [15:51] <MikeSmith> or just get a bulldog. It's almost the same as a tiny hippo. Especially if you shave all the hair off.
  484. # [15:51] <MikeSmith> heh
  485. # [15:51] <MikeSmith> Good Times
  486. # [15:51] <zewt> but whatever you do, don't shave a bear http://thewholegardenwillbow.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/img001862.jpg
  487. # [15:51] <MikeSmith> W3C got Mr Toad driving this bus
  488. # [15:53] <MikeSmith> zewt wtf wow
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  490. # [15:53] <zewt> that's probably what the bear was thinking
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  492. # [15:55] <MikeSmith> heh
  493. # [15:56] <darobin> wtf, that's ugly
  494. # [15:58] <darobin> also, don't comb your lion http://www.makemybeauty.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/timotei-lion.jpg
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  499. # [16:27] <annevk> HTML needs event parent / cross-boundary event parent
  500. # [16:28] <annevk> Shadow DOM needs event parent, but along with that it also wants to store a target and a relatedTarget (not in Shadow DOM yet because of a bug)
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  502. # [16:32] <annevk> So you ask for the event parent. On that object you ask for a override target and possibly an relatedTarget?
  503. # [16:33] <annevk> s/an/a/
  504. # [16:35] <annevk> Of course Shadow DOM is weird. dglazkov, what gets me answers quicker, email or bugs?
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  520. # [16:53] <annevk> slightlyoff: I guess you're not going to tell me what BIS means now? :)
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  522. # [16:56] <annevk> Hixie: Shadow DOM is why DOM and HTML should probably just merge.
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  535. # [17:31] <annevk> slightlyoff: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20913 it seems the other behavior that's weird is that createElement would return an element with an is="" attribute
  536. # [17:31] <annevk> slightlyoff: that's completely new
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  538. # [17:31] <slightlyoff> annevk: I want the "is" attribute to die in a fire, so that's not me ;-)
  539. # [17:31] <annevk> slightlyoff: but the whole is="" thing does not appear to be defined so you miss it if you just read the drafts :/
  540. # [17:31] * slightlyoff summons dglazkov
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  543. # [17:48] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  544. # [17:48] <annevk> slightlyoff: dglazkov: commented here: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20913#c24
  545. # [17:48] <annevk> dglazkov: left you with various bug reports and questions
  546. # [17:49] <dglazkov> annevk: I saw that! Thanks!
  547. # [17:49] <annevk> dglazkov: oh, and when I seem frustrated, just ignore that bit ;)
  548. # [17:49] <dglazkov> annevk: why do you seem frustrated? :)
  549. # [17:50] <annevk> because Shadow DOM? :p
  550. # [17:50] <annevk> I like the concept, I'm not a fan of the spec
  551. # [17:51] * dglazkov sulks
  552. # [17:53] <dglazkov> annevk: well, the good news is that I am not done with the spec
  553. # [17:53] <annevk> I tend to think that eventually most of it will be either part of HTML or DOM
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  556. # [17:54] <annevk> With what's left integrated into CSS's box model generation algorithm (if they ever define that)
  557. # [17:54] <dglazkov> annevk: yep
  558. # [17:54] <annevk> but I can see how the monkeypatching is a nice start to figure things out first
  559. # [17:54] <annevk> since it's such a big thing
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  582. # [18:20] <dglazkov> annevk: you can already do document.createElement(":-P") today
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  585. # [18:23] <annevk> dglazkov: yes, but not createElementNS
  586. # [18:23] <annevk> dglazkov: and you cannot write <:-P> in XML either
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  589. # [18:26] <dglazkov> annevk: I see
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  591. # [18:28] <smaug____> hmm, web components becoming more and more like XTF+XBL
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  593. # [18:28] <smaug____> which is good, I think
  594. # [18:28] <annevk> smaug____: you would say that
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  597. # [18:33] <annevk> dglazkov: so is http://www.w3.org/TR/components-intro/ information that is missing elsewhere, but also wrong?
  598. # [18:33] <annevk> dglazkov: should I read it?
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  601. # [18:33] <dglazkov> annevk: it's just old, I need to update it to reflect all the latest changes. What I was pointing to is the callbacks.
  602. # [18:33] <annevk> sure, I got that
  603. # [18:34] <annevk> just wondering about the rest :)
  604. # [18:34] <dglazkov> the rest is handwavy right (for web devs), but is obsolete
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  606. # [18:36] <annevk> dglazkov: so the spec missing right now is decorators?
  607. # [18:36] <annevk> dglazkov: everything else is available?
  608. # [18:37] <dglazkov> annevk: and packaging: <link rel=components>
  609. # [18:37] <annevk> ah yeah, some external stuff to complicate matters
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  611. # [18:39] <annevk> hmm, why wouldn't <template><html> work?
  612. # [18:39] <annevk> that's too bad
  613. # [18:39] <marcosc> annevk: what's the deal with http://notifications.spec.whatwg.org/ ? dead?
  614. # [18:40] <Ms2ger> marcosc, being implemented, why?
  615. # [18:40] <annevk> marcosc: why do you assume it's dead given it's last updated two weeks ago?
  616. # [18:40] <annevk> marcosc: and hey, welcome to IRC!
  617. # [18:40] <marcosc> just wondering… I'm looking at the Alarm stuff from SysApps and it seems that many of the use cases could be covered if Notifications were timed
  618. # [18:41] <marcosc> annevk: I was not sure, as the WG shut down
  619. # [18:41] <marcosc> annevk: so I was a bit confused
  620. # [18:42] <annevk> marcosc: WHATWG != W3C
  621. # [18:42] <marcosc> different logo, same £@$t :)
  622. # [18:42] <annevk> marcosc: also, last I heard W3C reopened with a chair from Apple, not sure who they lined up as editor
  623. # [18:42] <annevk> marcosc: not really, we don't close down WGs and our stuff can be forked
  624. # [18:42] <marcosc> annevk: ah, ok. I checked the mailing list which pointed me to the WHATWG version
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  626. # [18:43] <marcosc> annevk: I know, just teasing :)
  627. # [18:43] <marcosc> annevk: ok, good to know that they are not dead.
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  630. # [18:44] <marcosc> annevk: I'm wondering if the group discussed time-dependent notifications (reminders)? That would trigger many even after the use leaves the page.
  631. # [18:44] <annevk> marcosc: well dunno, the W3C WG might not be dead in theory, but in practice... In any event, the WHATWG stuff is being implemented afaik
  632. # [18:45] <annevk> marcosc: no, but that could be added
  633. # [18:45] <annevk> though someone should look at the security implications of that
  634. # [18:46] <marcosc> annevk: cool. I'll see if I can discuss the use cases a bit more with the SysApps group and bounce it over this way
  635. # [18:46] <marcosc> annevk: yeah, absolutely. There are a lot of issues with all this stuff
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  637. # [18:46] <marcosc> Right now, I'm just trying to get the use cases straight
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  639. # [18:47] <annevk> dglazkov: thanks for unrolling that :)
  640. # [18:47] <annevk> dglazkov: might have to wait with reviewing that until tomorrow
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  643. # [18:48] <dglazkov> annevk: another person to ping about this is hayato@chromium.org
  644. # [18:48] <dglazkov> he actually wrote most of this code in WebKit and contributed heavily to the algorithm. Also, check out the test suite. These guys have gone through the same exercise.
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  646. # [18:49] <dglazkov> http://w3c-test.org/webapps/ShadowDOM/tests/submissions/Google/
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  651. # [18:52] <annevk> ta
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  673. # [19:30] <volkmar> win 16
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  678. # [19:39] <roidelapluie> hello
  679. # [19:39] <roidelapluie> I am translating a call for paper webform from english to dutch
  680. # [19:39] <roidelapluie> I am looking for some dutch-speaking people to help me
  681. # [19:39] <roidelapluie> https://pad.rmll.info/7vvOtOvwBQ
  682. # [19:39] <roidelapluie> thank you in advance :)
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  729. # [20:28] <Hixie> man i hate twitter. such a disaster of an interfce.
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  737. # [20:38] <annevk> Hixie: Twitter is opt-in, even more so than bureaucracy ;-)
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  740. # [20:40] <Ms2ger> Zing
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  743. # [20:41] <jgraham> It would just improve the universe a little if everyone else opted out
  744. # [20:42] <Hixie> annevk: people keep asking me questiosn there
  745. # [20:42] <Hixie> annevk: so, not really
  746. # [20:43] <Hixie> annevk: ah, also, since you're here
  747. # [20:43] <Ms2ger> Well, people keep asking you to deal with bureaucracy too :)
  748. # [20:43] <Hixie> annevk: twitter reset the whatwg password
  749. # [20:43] <Hixie> annevk: because they got hacked or some nonsense
  750. # [20:44] <Hixie> annevk: also, re dom and html -- i think _all_ the web platform specs should be merged into one big spec. The only reason IMHO we have to split the specs is to make sure each part is only edited by one person, who has exclusive blame for any mistakes.
  751. # [20:44] <Hixie> Ms2ger: yeah but there is a higher net benefit to me answering people's questions than to anyone doing pointless bureaucracy.
  752. # [20:44] <annevk> Hixie: can you pm me the new password?
  753. # [20:44] <annevk> Hixie: or check it into GitHub
  754. # [20:45] <Hixie> checking it into github seems like a spectacularily bad idea :-P
  755. # [20:45] <annevk> Hixie: we have a private repo mostly for Twitter passwords
  756. # [20:45] <Hixie> ah ok
  757. # [20:46] <Hixie> yeah let me get it and i'll /msg you hold on
  758. # [20:46] <annevk> Hixie: as for specs, as long as they can be sensibly layered I think it makes some sense to do so
  759. # [20:47] <annevk> Hixie: once they get intertwined without clear separation it's bad
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  761. # [20:49] * Ms2ger kicks whatwg.org
  762. # [20:49] <Ms2ger> Anyone else having issues connection?
  763. # [20:49] <Ms2ger> connecting, even
  764. # [20:50] <Hixie> whatwg.org is working fine for me, but other things on the same host are giving me issues
  765. # [20:50] <Hixie> so i'm glad it's not just me
  766. # [20:50] <Hixie> load average: 0.08, 0.06, 0.22 so it's not that...
  767. # [20:50] <Hixie> half a gig of RAM free...
  768. # [20:51] <Hixie> what the heck
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  773. # [20:54] <Hixie> Ms2ger: try now?
  774. # [20:54] <Ms2ger> Doesn't look better
  775. # [20:55] <Hixie> are you failing at dns, routing, or http?
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  784. # [21:07] <Ms2ger> Hixie, fine now
  785. # [21:07] <Hixie> k
  786. # [21:07] <Hixie> no idea what that was about
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  842. # [22:11] <annevk> Hixie: btw, http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Fetch
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  844. # [22:11] <roc> I'm unable to subscribe to public-html-media. Anyone know who I should contact to sort that out?
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  848. # [22:12] <annevk> roc: iirc sysreq@w3.org, they're on W3C IRC too
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  851. # [22:14] <annevk> roc: MikeSmith is responsible for the list
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  853. # [22:14] <annevk> roc: maybe you should try again though or check your spam box? plenty of people managed to subscribe
  854. # [22:15] <roc> I've tried twice. The email may be dropped by some spam filter somewhere but I can't find it.
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  858. # [22:17] <annevk> so I'm guessing MikeSmith is asleep for another couple of hours, so your best bet would probably be to ask on W3C IRC and failing that the email address
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  861. # [22:22] <darobin> roc: lemme look into that
  862. # [22:22] <roc> let me just do a bit more digging :-)
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  864. # [22:24] <darobin> roc: you're subscribed now
  865. # [22:24] <roc> ok
  866. # [22:24] <roc> thanks!!!
  867. # [22:25] <darobin> I'm not sure you should thank me for it, but hey, no problem ;)
  868. # [22:25] <darobin> and with this evil deed done, I'm off to bed
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  879. # [22:34] <annevk> Hixie: my plan is to start working on that to somewhat contain the CORS / Fetch mess and make it more concrete how various URL schemes are actually dealt with
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  890. # [23:03] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  891. # [23:04] <annevk> TabAtkins: interested in seeing if the URL parser can be rewritten too?
  892. # [23:04] <annevk> TabAtkins: it doesn't really have a separate tokenization step though, so I guess it might be tricky
  893. # [23:05] * Quits: stevefaulkner (~stevefaul@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: stevefaulkner)
  894. # [23:08] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0278.html seems relevant to my interests
  895. # [23:09] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.107.17)
  896. # [23:11] <Hixie> annevk: k. if you could keep the spec hook API identical to what we have now that would be most awesome as it would make it easier to merge. The encoding and URL merges were quite painful. :-(
  897. # [23:11] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  898. # [23:13] <annevk> Hixie: I'll try to keep changes to a minimum, but I suspect there'll be some as move towards one algorithm
  899. # [23:13] <annevk> we*
  900. # [23:16] * Quits: zdobersek (~zdobersek@cpe-77.38.31.63.cable.t-1.si) (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
  901. # [23:20] <annevk> "Television is generally a more expensive medium than music to produce due to the amount of labour involved"
  902. # [23:20] <annevk> uhuh
  903. # [23:20] <annevk> and fonts are different from graphics because they're special and such
  904. # [23:20] * Quits: ricea (ricea@nat/google/x-lmahbjjixtftcjxh) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  905. # [23:21] <annevk> each industry seems to have found their own unique reason why they need DRM as opposed to the rest of the planet
  906. # [23:23] * Quits: falken_away (falken@nat/google/x-nbbofgpwlazdisaz) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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  909. # [23:27] * Philip` wonders if annevk is disagreeing that TV is significantly more expensive, or just disagreeing that that's a relevant factor for DRM
  910. # [23:27] <Hixie> annevk: the argument would be more convincing if DRM had any effect on that
  911. # [23:27] <Philip`> (It seems TV can easily cost a million dollars per hour, and a large orchestra is probably a couple of orders of magnitude less than that)
  912. # [23:28] <annevk> Philip`: the latter
  913. # [23:28] * Joins: rniwa_ (~rniwa@17.114.105.143)
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  918. # [23:34] <Philip`> Music has been broadcast over the airwaves to anybody who wants to listen, entirely free, for decades, and managed a commercially viable business model, so the internet isn't much of a change - but clearly TV is nothing like that
  919. # [23:36] <Hixie> true, nobody has ever broadcast TV to anyone with a receiver
  920. # [23:37] * Joins: ricea (ricea@nat/google/x-ixbrcznudjvrpnaw)
  921. # [23:37] * gsnedders notes there are plenty of places where TVs are not free, unlike radios
  922. # [23:38] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
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  925. # [23:42] <Hixie> gsnedders: wait, what? radios are free?
  926. # [23:44] * Quits: hasather_ (~hasather_@cm-84.210.170.238.getinternet.no) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  927. # [23:45] <gsnedders> Hixie: Well, I meant in the sentence of the British TV license and similar around the world.
  928. # [23:46] <Hixie> well that can apply online as well (indeed, it does for iPlayer)
  929. # [23:46] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  930. # [23:46] <Hixie> not like Channel 5 gets that money
  931. # [23:48] * Quits: fr0zenice (~frozenice@unaffiliated/fr0zenice) (Remote host closed the connection)
  932. # [23:51] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
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  936. # [23:56] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@151.192.125.91.dyn.plus.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  937. # [23:57] * Philip` wonders if you're allowed to watch iPlayer live if you've only got a black-and-white TV licence
  938. # [23:59] * Quits: SimonSapin (~simon@v-1045.fw1.sfo1.mozilla.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  939. # Session Close: Wed Feb 13 00:00:00 2013

The end :)