/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-02-13 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Feb 13 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [00:08] <gsnedders> Philip`: If you watch it on a black-and-white monitor, I think is the answer.
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  15. # [00:15] <Hixie> hsivonen, abarth: ping https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17845
  16. # [00:16] <abarth> hi
  17. # [00:16] <abarth> reading
  18. # [00:18] <abarth> we haven't run into any compatibility problems with webkit's current behavior
  19. # [00:20] <abarth> I don't see any explicit code in the adoption agency implementation in webkit that mentions the form
  20. # [00:20] <abarth> but its possible that there's something happening implicitly in the DOM machinery
  21. # [00:20] <abarth> I'll copy the above into the bug
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  24. # [00:29] <Hixie> abarth: pretty sure you've no special case code, you're doing what the spec says to do
  25. # [00:29] <abarth> ok, great. :)
  26. # [00:29] <abarth> I generally prefer the spec to be stable, we we'll change to match the spec if it changes
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  28. # [00:31] <Hixie> yeah
  29. # [00:31] <Hixie> wish microsoft would give us steps to reproduce
  30. # [00:31] * Hixie curses anne for using "set" as the variable name for an ordered list in DOM
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  42. # [00:59] <rillian> setSet(getSet(jet.set))
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  54. # [01:24] <zewt> gar, photoshop is another one of those things where each update fixes some stuff you really need fixed, while simultaneously breaking a bunch of things in horrible ways, making every upgrade a nightmare
  55. # [01:26] <zewt> cs6 removed the zoom panel, so now I can't find any way to quickly zoom to 50%, which i have to do constantly due to retina stuff
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  66. # [01:45] <GPHemsley> zewt: It seems that's how you do things nowadays.
  67. # [01:46] <zewt> indeed
  68. # [01:46] <zewt> gotta introduce new bugs so you can sell n+1
  69. # [01:47] <GPHemsley> that theory doesn't really work for free software/websites ;)
  70. # [01:47] <zewt> doesn't make it seem any less so for commercial ones :P
  71. # [01:47] <GPHemsley> I think it's more that people forget that you don't need to fix things that ain't broke
  72. # [01:48] <zewt> seriously, i can't figure out how to zoom to 50% in cs6
  73. # [01:48] <GPHemsley> well, that I can't help you with :P
  74. # [01:48] <zewt> did they really go "nobody needs to do that!"
  75. # [01:48] <GPHemsley> is there a menu option that'll point you to a keyboard shortcut or something?
  76. # [01:48] <GPHemsley> </obvious suggestions>
  77. # [01:48] <zewt> can't even find it in the menu, heh
  78. # [01:49] <GPHemsley> aha!
  79. # [01:49] <zewt> (i'm not really expecting to find a solution in here :)
  80. # [01:49] <GPHemsley> no more zoom!
  81. # [01:49] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  82. # [01:49] * GPHemsley shrugs
  83. # [01:49] <zewt> (though I suspect there are more than a few people in here whose jobs involve translating PSDs to websites, so perhaps there are at least people here who share my pain)
  84. # [01:50] <GPHemsley> maybe give GIMP a shot? there's a native Mac version now
  85. # [01:50] <zewt> "now you have two problems"
  86. # [01:50] <GPHemsley> heh
  87. # [01:51] <GPHemsley> I have to admit, I'm not a photo editing expert
  88. # [01:51] <jsbell> They ditched the X11 requirement so focus now mostly behaves, but it's still barely a Mac app. :P
  89. # [01:51] <zewt> every time i've tried gimp, it feels very ... 90s
  90. # [01:51] <GPHemsley> it's now early '00s ;)
  91. # [01:51] <zewt> granted it's been several years (even if I learn to use it, the artists giving me assets won't)
  92. # [01:52] <GPHemsley> actually, maybe even late '00s
  93. # [01:52] <GPHemsley> (I forget what year it is sometimes)
  94. # [01:53] <zewt> is it still a mess of separate windows, or do they finally have a usable docking ui?
  95. # [01:53] <GPHemsley> there's even a single-window version!
  96. # [01:53] <GPHemsley> and by "version" I mean, a simple menu click
  97. # [01:54] <GPHemsley> it still has a few kinks, but it's leaps ahead of where it used to be
  98. # [01:54] <GPHemsley> (as in, I can actually stand to use it now)
  99. # [01:54] <GPHemsley> but again, not a photo editing expert
  100. # [01:57] <zewt> i don't do much photo editing, i use ps for ui work
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  102. # [02:00] <GPHemsley> s/photo editor/graphic designer/
  103. # [02:00] <GPHemsley> oh, uh
  104. # [02:00] <GPHemsley> s/photo editing/graphic design/
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  107. # [02:08] <zewt> wonder if webkit optimizes the case of opacity: 0; pointer-events: none; position: absolute; or if it's useful to listen for transitionend and set display: none explicitly
  108. # [02:08] <esprehn> zewt: optimizes how?
  109. # [02:09] <zewt> if i have a lot of them in the same place, eg. blocks of text that i'm fading across, whether it's beneficial to explicitly remove it from rendering or if it figures that out on its own
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  111. # [02:10] <zewt> would be easier if there was a :not-animating selector, so i don't have to jump event hoops
  112. # [02:10] <zewt> guess i can just stick a few thousand of them on top of one another and test it
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  114. # [02:12] <jamesr> opacity: 0 is magic, but it's not as magic as display:none
  115. # [02:12] <jamesr> (in WebKit)
  116. # [02:12] <esprehn> opacity: 0 is skipped for painting, p-e: none is skipped for hit testing
  117. # [02:13] <esprehn> for some definition of skipped. If you have thousands of these things we still check every one for pointer-events to see if we could have hit it since each one has a layer and we walk the while layer tree
  118. # [02:13] <esprehn> position: absolute doesn't matter
  119. # [02:13] <jamesr> display:none takes them out of the box tree completely
  120. # [02:13] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  121. # [02:13] <esprehn> (in this case, since you already have a layer from opacity)
  122. # [02:13] <jamesr> at the cost of having to regenerate them when display goes back to non-none
  123. # [02:13] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  124. # [02:14] <esprehn> whole layer tree*
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  127. # [02:21] <esprehn> zewt: if you need better perf you should display: none them. we still need to do layout on the opacity: 0 things
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  129. # [02:22] <esprehn> I guess we could do it lazily, but no one has taken the time to implement that kind of optimization
  130. # [02:22] <zewt> does that tend to have a nontrivial cost, even when the box isn't changing and has no effect on other content?
  131. # [02:22] <esprehn> not usually
  132. # [02:23] <zewt> i'll probably just need to benchmark it and see if it'll matter (this isn't a huge page, but it does have to run smoothly on mobile)
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  135. # [02:26] <jamesr> data >> guesses
  136. # [02:27] <zewt> yep
  137. # [02:27] <zewt> does help to have a picture of what's actually going on, too, of course
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  148. # [03:02] <miketaylr> back
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  152. # [03:10] <miketaylr> >_<
  153. # [03:10] <miketaylr> (no thanks to my clients spammy auto-back in every channel message....)
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  156. # [03:13] <zewt> photoshop also taking a horrifyling google-esque ui turn, with a big list that now has no separating lines to anchor it, making it headachy
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  258. # [08:00] <annevk> Hixie: thanks for responding so quickly!
  259. # [08:03] <annevk> Hixie: I take that back, I see you cursed me last night :p
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  273. # [08:28] <annevk> Hixie: I
  274. # [08:28] <annevk> Hixie: assuming this is about DOMTokenList, I picked set rather than ordered list, because the items are guaranteed to be unique with the new definitions
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  288. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> well well well seems it's official http://my.opera.com/ODIN/blog/300-million-users-and-move-to-webkit
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  290. # [09:17] <heycam> well there you go
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  302. # [09:36] <jamesr_> heycam: did you see that thread about RAF's WebIDL use?
  303. # [09:36] <heycam> jamesr_, oh yes, sorry I'll get to that
  304. # [09:36] <jamesr_> need to s/something/partial interface/
  305. # [09:36] <jamesr_> great! thanks
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  308. # [09:45] <heycam> jamesr, fixed
  309. # [09:45] <MikeSmith> [[Wium Lie says that it is jumping aboard at the right time, as “the industry moves to make it the de facto Web rendering engine”.]]
  310. # [09:45] <jamesr_> heycam: cool! thanks
  311. # [09:46] <MikeSmith> call an exorcist, that doesn't sound like the Haakon I know
  312. # [09:46] <heycam> how does that quote gel with the "We hope to work with you to further strengthen the open web that we
  313. # [09:46] <heycam> all believe in" quote from the webkit-dev mail
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  316. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> heycam: I'm pretty sure Haakon didn't write that message either
  317. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> seriously
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  319. # [09:49] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Where is that quote from?
  320. # [09:49] <MikeSmith> hey jgraham
  321. # [09:49] <MikeSmith> from http://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/02/13/opera-300-million-users-webkit/
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  323. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> so I've yet to hear anything about what the plans are for the Presto code. What happens? It just .. disappears?
  324. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> I mean outside of maintenance on it for patche updates to existing products (for security fixes or whatever)
  325. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> it seems like it could be open-sourced, eventually at least
  326. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> and should be
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  328. # [09:56] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I believe that Presto won't be open sourced
  329. # [09:57] <MikeSmith> ok
  330. # [09:57] <MikeSmith> that's too bad
  331. # [09:57] <sangwhan> No, condemned folks (read: me) are destined to work on it until nobody else wants it. It won't be open sourced.
  332. # [09:57] <sangwhan> ...as in, Presto.
  333. # [09:58] <jgraham> The reasoning is that doing a big code dump with no documentation or people tasked to work on it isn't helpful to anyone
  334. # [09:58] <MikeSmith> I suppose so
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  336. # [09:59] <MikeSmith> god Haavard is nauseating
  337. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> I wish I had some screen to avoid ever seeing his tweets
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  339. # [10:00] <sangwhan> MikeSmith: Unfollow him?
  340. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> I don't follow him
  341. # [10:00] <doublec> how are you seeing his tweets?
  342. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> I follow other people whose tweets he replies to, in conversations
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  346. # [10:02] <doublec> oh right. need better twitter clients to manage conversions and 'kill files'.
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  348. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> I really get the sense that dude would do any kind of 180 switch that might be required by his masters, in order to remain cheerleader #1
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  352. # [10:03] <doublec> I wonder if there are any
  353. # [10:04] <sangwhan> Greasemonkey to the rescue
  354. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> doublec: none that I know of
  355. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> hmm I guess if you block somebody on twitter you never see their tweets
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  360. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> anyway I guess he's just doing his job, like the rest of us
  361. # [10:15] <roc> I dunno, he could probably find a job that isn't nauseating. Most of us have that luxury
  362. # [10:15] <roc> whether we choose to exercise it or not
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  369. # [10:24] <roc> "Our first patch to WebKit (so for all WK browsers) is to bring CSS multi-col to Presto levels http://bit.ly/14RHGux" ... and the patch is like half a line. OK that is dumb.
  370. # [10:25] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  371. # [10:27] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
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  374. # [10:33] <doublec> It'll suck if their first ever patch ends up with a huge comment discussion and an r-
  375. # [10:33] <doublec> at least a small one is safer in that regard
  376. # [10:35] <roc> I guess so
  377. # [10:36] <gsnedders> And it's probably easier to post something small, eh.
  378. # [10:40] <roc> the tweet drastically oversold it, is all.
  379. # [10:41] <darobin> is the Presto code going anywhere?
  380. # [10:41] <roc> yes, into the void
  381. # [10:43] <doublec> sad. Where's wikileaks for abandoned code when you need it.
  382. # [10:43] <Philip`> Github would probably work well enough for that
  383. # [10:44] <darobin> it would be a crying shame for it to just vanish :(
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  385. # [10:46] <odinho> :-)
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  392. # [11:01] <MikeSmith> ...and just when I think Haarvard couldn't say anything more obnoxious
  393. # [11:01] <MikeSmith> what a knob
  394. # [11:01] <MikeSmith> and this one somebody I follow retweeted
  395. # [11:02] <darobin> MikeSmith: where?
  396. # [11:02] <MikeSmith> https://twitter.com/opvard/status/301624575882575872
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  398. # [11:03] <MikeSmith> he "predicts" .. Now he's a sage
  399. # [11:03] <MikeSmith> he should write a book, "The Wise Musings of Haavard"
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  401. # [11:06] <roc> tweet this back at him: http://robert.ocallahan.org/2013/02/and-then-there-were-three.html
  402. # [11:08] <darobin> what roc said
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  406. # [11:11] <MikeSmith> thanks roc
  407. # [11:11] <MikeSmith> https://twitter.com/sideshowbarker/status/301635273291341825
  408. # [11:11] <roc> thanks
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  411. # [11:19] <annevk> MikeSmith: kind of an odd message to come from howcome indeed
  412. # [11:19] <annevk> I never really liked Jon, but in hindsight it's pretty clear that replacing him with a sales guy was the wrong move
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  414. # [11:21] <roc> it may well turn out to be the best thing for Opera-the-company
  415. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> roc: maybe so, for what's left of it
  416. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> and I mean that un-bitterly
  417. # [11:23] * asmodai grins
  418. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> it's just going to be a different company
  419. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> already has become a different one really
  420. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> what really made everything go to hell was when Thomas Ford left :)
  421. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> that was the sign
  422. # [11:25] <asmodai> So is there agreement that one rendering engine will be beneficial in the long run? ;)
  423. # [11:25] <asmodai> (assuming MS and/or Mozilla would ever switch)
  424. # [11:25] <roc> did you read my post?
  425. # [11:26] <asmodai> roc: No sorry, is it higher up in the chatlog?
  426. # [11:26] <roc> http://robert.ocallahan.org/2013/02/and-then-there-were-three.html
  427. # [11:26] <MikeSmith> annevk: I never really disliked Jon but .. he was a real person and he had his heart in the right place. But I guess that's not what a company wants in a CEO. It wants Steve Jobs.
  428. # [11:27] <asmodai> roc: Fair points.
  429. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> along with roc's post, https://plus.google.com/116237864387312784020/posts/iRRPVaaPQvo from jaffathecake
  430. # [11:29] <Stevef_> roc: thanks for the post makes issues clear for those such as myself who have no idea
  431. # [11:34] <asmodai> MikeSmith: domo
  432. # [11:34] <asmodai> Maybe Opera can show Chrome how to do proper anti-aliased fonts with Webkit :P
  433. # [11:35] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  434. # [11:50] <MikeSmith> On the plus side, I guess Opera devs are all gonna get new machines to build on.
  435. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> Because they're going to need them. With more RAM and big(ger) SSDs.
  436. # [11:51] <annevk> MikeSmith: trololol
  437. # [11:52] <MikeSmith> sorry for party rocking
  438. # [11:54] <annevk> This makes Firefox OS harder, makes Windows Phone harder, and worst case will further enshrine WebKit bugs as part of the web platform, complicating projects for new browser engines such as Servo
  439. # [11:55] <odinho> MikeSmith: We did get it. :-)
  440. # [11:55] <odinho> Reeeaaally powerful
  441. # [11:55] * odinho happy
  442. # [11:55] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah
  443. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> odinho: and you can look forward to a year from now you'll probably get a new one that's twice as powerful. Because you'll need it.
  444. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> du --si on my Chromium+WebKit build directory = 26GB. The WebKit part is only 8GB of that, and 1.4GB of other third-party stuff.
  445. # [11:58] <MikeSmith> implied scare quotes around the word /only/
  446. # [11:58] <odinho> It's no secret that the code bases are very different. :-)
  447. # [11:58] <annevk> Servo is probably the coolest thing right now when it comes to browsers and web platform architecture.
  448. # [11:59] <annevk> At least from the browser projects that are public.
  449. # [11:59] * Joins: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  450. # [11:59] <annevk> odinho: what happens to the Presto code?
  451. # [12:00] <MikeSmith> meanwhile in the tab next door, all of Nightly in my built mozilla-central directory is 4.9GB
  452. # [12:02] * Joins: tomasf_ (~tomasf@77.72.97.4.c.fiberdirekt.net)
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  456. # [12:04] <MikeSmith> so does this mean Opera is (eventually) going to be added a new port in the WebKit trunk?
  457. # [12:07] * Quits: espadrine (~thaddee_t@AMontsouris-158-1-81-115.w90-2.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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  459. # [12:10] <sangwhan> annevk: Some people will continue to work on it, but it won't be open sourced from what I heard so far
  460. # [12:11] <annevk> sangwhan: ta
  461. # [12:12] * sangwhan is not particularly excited about several hour long compile runs
  462. # [12:14] <asmodai> http://www.xkcd.com/303/ <-- appropriate
  463. # [12:19] <sangwhan> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7479257/Photo%20Feb%2013%2C%2020%2020%2018.jpg <-- way ahead of you
  464. # [12:20] <jgraham> In the days of CVS, someone had printed that out and s/compiling/waiting for locks in DOM/ or somesuch
  465. # [12:21] <sangwhan> and/or tagging/branching
  466. # [12:22] <annevk> slightlyoff: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-fonts/#font-load-events
  467. # [12:22] <annevk> slightlyoff: we need to get Future out there
  468. # [12:22] <annevk> slightlyoff: how is that going to work with TC39?
  469. # [12:23] <annevk> slightlyoff: I can add it to DOM any day, but I'd like to not change it around to much
  470. # [12:29] <rniwa> roc: sadly, webkit is new ie6 :/
  471. # [12:30] <roc> that's not fair
  472. # [12:30] <rniwa> roc: i know :(
  473. # [12:30] <rniwa> roc: just as we thought we got rid of ie6...
  474. # [12:30] <roc> at least it's open source, and good
  475. # [12:31] <rniwa> roc: yeah, at least you can read the code.
  476. # [12:31] <roc> and contribute. You've got a good community.
  477. # [12:31] <rniwa> roc: right.
  478. # [12:31] <rniwa> roc: but now that webkit is really popular on mobile
  479. # [12:31] <roc> don't be sad. You've got job security :-)
  480. # [12:32] <rniwa> roc: job security is good and i'm excited that webkit is getting more momentum.
  481. # [12:32] <rniwa> roc: but with great market share, comes great responsibility
  482. # [12:33] <roc> indeed
  483. # [12:34] * Joins: wilhelm (~wilhelm@178.255.149.100)
  484. # [12:34] <rniwa> roc: but really, the web has gotten to the point where writing a browser from scratch is not an option.
  485. # [12:35] <darobin> ie6 was good when it came out, too
  486. # [12:35] <roc> it's certainly very difficult, and that is a major problem
  487. # [12:35] <rniwa> roc: yeah.
  488. # [12:35] <darobin> well, this ups the incentive to do it
  489. # [12:35] <roc> darobin: it was good compared to the competition, but it wasn't as close to the standards of its day as we are to ours
  490. # [12:35] <rniwa> roc: even just parsing html properly involves significant undertaking.
  491. # [12:36] <darobin> roc: sure, but to be fair to them the standards of back then were pretty damn hard to implement in that they were largely underspecified
  492. # [12:36] <darobin> I wonder what's the first component you write if you create a new browser
  493. # [12:36] <roc> that didn't help, but they weren't even close to the parts that were specified.
  494. # [12:36] <darobin> I'm not trying to defend ie6
  495. # [12:37] <roc> JS engine, DOM bindings and a basic DOM I think. Check out Servo :-)
  496. # [12:37] <darobin> just saying that it wouldn't be remembered in infamy if it hadn't stayed around for a decade
  497. # [12:37] <darobin> oh, I was assuming one would have the JS engine
  498. # [12:38] <rniwa> darobin: js engine & parser & DOM
  499. # [12:38] <darobin> yeah, Servo does look cool indeed
  500. # [12:38] <darobin> those parts are (relatively) easy
  501. # [12:38] <rniwa> not too sure if i like the idea of using an entirely new programming language for it though…
  502. # [12:39] <darobin> if I were to write a browser, I'd do it in JS ;-)
  503. # [12:41] <wilhelm> Watching this slow decline to irrelevance has been heartbreaking. There have been so many stupid decisions done by Opera management over the years. This switch is merely the inevitable nail in the coffin.
  504. # [12:41] <wilhelm> You reap what you sow. )c:
  505. # [12:42] <wilhelm> I'm glad I jumped ship when I did. /c:
  506. # [12:43] * Quits: heath (quassel@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:feae:6e5b) (Remote host closed the connection)
  507. # [12:44] <rniwa> wilhelm: it's sad because Opera does have top-notch good engineers.
  508. # [12:44] <rniwa> wilhelm: but then running any company, let alone a company that sells browser, is really hard.
  509. # [12:45] <wilhelm> rniwa: Yes. Although the last two rounds of layoffs have more than decimated the team.
  510. # [12:45] <wilhelm> And morale is at rock bottom.
  511. # [12:46] <wilhelm> (I'm just observing this from the outside now.)
  512. # [12:46] <MikeSmith> rniwa: especially when most all of the company's (or organization's...) revenue comes from the browser
  513. # [12:48] <MikeSmith> wilhelm: you make it sound too grim man
  514. # [12:48] * Quits: sedovsek (~robert@89.143.12.238) (Quit: sedovsek)
  515. # [12:50] <wilhelm> MikeSmith: It is pretty grim. On the positive side - now is a good time to hire great engineers. (c;
  516. # [12:50] * wilhelm has done so already.
  517. # [12:57] <darobin> business seems brisk wilhelm :)
  518. # [12:58] <wilhelm> I can't complain. (c:
  519. # [12:58] <darobin> I know several companies who've been looking for good browser engineers for a while, I know they're happy about this
  520. # [13:02] <annevk> So I guess I messed up the setup of GitHub.app this time around. Why are https://github.com/whatwg/url/commit/b4598abb5c83d4f394344ead62fa5200d1158f45 and such not attributed to me?
  521. # [13:02] <darobin> annevk: it says "Anne van Kesteren authored a minute ago"
  522. # [13:03] <annevk> darobin: contrast with https://github.com/whatwg/url/commit/724f4989fef387efeefe7ed0e8d7490b60ea3abf
  523. # [13:03] <darobin> is there another Anne van Kesteren
  524. # [13:03] <jgraham> It looks like you maybe didn't set your emaila ddress
  525. # [13:03] <darobin> ah, interesting
  526. # [13:04] <jgraham> (dunno how you do that in github.app ofc but on the command line it is something like git config global.email)
  527. # [13:04] <jgraham> (that is from memory though and so wrong)
  528. # [13:04] <Raymondo> wilhelm: what should opera have done differently as a company?
  529. # [13:05] <darobin> make money
  530. # [13:05] <Raymondo> darobin: like everyone else?
  531. # [13:05] <darobin> they have a goldmine with Mini that they haven't mined
  532. # [13:06] <darobin> they also had a chance to build up the Opera Platform about 8 years ago
  533. # [13:06] <darobin> they could've been in the OS game, and made huge inroads
  534. # [13:06] <annevk> jgraham: .gitconfig has the right email
  535. # [13:06] <darobin> but they dropped the ball completely and on purpose
  536. # [13:06] <darobin> annevk: was the previous commit from the app as well?
  537. # [13:06] <annevk> darobin: yeah
  538. # [13:07] <annevk> darobin: different laptop though
  539. # [13:07] <annevk> and not restored from backup or anything
  540. # [13:07] <darobin> ah, so maybe different setup
  541. # [13:07] * Quits: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  542. # [13:08] <annevk> I suspect so, just wondering what it is, as GitHub.app does require you to login and all so they bloody well know!
  543. # [13:08] <jgraham> But are the email addresses on the commits right?
  544. # [13:09] <jgraham> I don't really see what it could use other than the author information on the commit
  545. # [13:09] <wilhelm> Raymondo: A lot. A brief summary would be: 1) Focus. 2) Focus. 3) Avoid all the friction that kills productivity.
  546. # [13:09] <darobin> this seems like a bug to me
  547. # [13:10] <darobin> maybe you switch to hg
  548. # [13:10] <darobin> ah — no Ms2ger. Sad.
  549. # [13:11] <Raymondo> wilhelm: interesting that you and darobin seem to be saying opposite things. 'make an os, develop your non-browser proxy service' vs. 'focus (on the desktop browser?)'
  550. # [13:12] <darobin> Raymondo: wilhelm said focus, he didn't say on what
  551. # [13:12] <wilhelm> Raymondo: They are not neccessarily opposites.
  552. # [13:12] <darobin> I agree with him — pick a project, focus on it
  553. # [13:12] <darobin> don't ship stuff like a web server in your browser
  554. # [13:14] <wilhelm> Raymondo: Opera tried to be all things for all people for too long. While we (heh, I still say "we") wasted time on getting the browser engine to compile on the most braindead compilers out there, the competition shipped.
  555. # [13:14] <annevk> jgraham: how do I get the raw commits?
  556. # [13:15] <MikeSmith> well, Opera takes chances, including some nutty ones. That's a big part of what has made it the great thing it is. I hope it keeps taking some crazy chances.
  557. # [13:15] <annevk> I guess I'll try once more
  558. # [13:16] <Raymondo> agreed. opera's leaps weren't always successful but were always interesting and often influencial
  559. # [13:16] <Raymondo> must not talk in past tense
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  562. # [13:16] <MikeSmith> Opera was the first browser project to ship a real full browser preinstalled on a mobile phone (here in Japan). At a time when others thought that was just plain not practical to do.
  563. # [13:17] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@ad006026.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp)
  564. # [13:18] <MikeSmith> And Opera shipped a browser on the original Nintendo DS. Which had the computing power of a sewing machine. 66MHz CPU!
  565. # [13:18] <roc> haha
  566. # [13:18] <roc> blog commenter claims "Opera isn't a big company like Mozilla"
  567. # [13:19] <rniwa> roc: lol.
  568. # [13:19] <roc> (Opera has more employees than Mozilla, FWIW)
  569. # [13:19] <wilhelm> MikeSmith: Yep. I remember shipping a full browser on Qtopia in 2004. It was amazing that thing even worked.
  570. # [13:19] <rniwa> roc: for starters, mozilla isn't a company.
  571. # [13:19] <wilhelm> But it did.
  572. # [13:20] <MikeSmith> roc: you need to count productive employees at Opera. Then the count is closer, I think :)
  573. # [13:20] <roc> don't be so sure :-)
  574. # [13:20] <MikeSmith> touche
  575. # [13:20] <rniwa> so… if you're in the business of making a web browser, where do you compete?
  576. # [13:20] <rniwa> it seems like all web browsers are going to implement every single API ever invented on the web
  577. # [13:21] <MikeSmith> rniwa: user experience
  578. # [13:21] <rniwa> with a flavor of various bugs
  579. # [13:21] <MikeSmith> simple
  580. # [13:22] <MikeSmith> btw I guess Opera did most of the really crazy stuff in the days when Jon was running the show, and I guess for better or worse those days have already been long gone for quite a while now.
  581. # [13:24] <wilhelm> Yes.
  582. # [13:25] * Joins: baku (~baku@2-236-39-253.ip231.fastwebnet.it)
  583. # [13:26] <smaug____> rniwa: hopefully not every single API.
  584. # [13:26] <smaug____> need to fight against bad APIs
  585. # [13:27] <rniwa> smaug____: I wanna delete them all.
  586. # [13:27] <smaug____> rniwa: yes, you could start with Filesystem API ;)
  587. # [13:28] * smaug____ is trying to kill MutationEvents
  588. # [13:28] <rniwa> smaug____: fwiw, we've deleted web intents
  589. # [13:28] <rniwa> smaug____: and safari has never shipped file system API
  590. # [13:28] <rniwa> smaug____: chrome might be the only browser that ships filesystem api
  591. # [13:28] <roc> that didn't stop Mega from using it :-(
  592. # [13:30] <rniwa> smaug____, roc: http://caniuse.com/filesystem
  593. # [13:30] <rniwa> you might as well as consider it as a proprietary api...
  594. # [13:31] <roc> like I said...
  595. # [13:32] <rniwa> roc, smaug____: didn't Microsoft & Mozilla publicly stated that they won't implement the file system API as is?
  596. # [13:32] <smaug____> random note, don't try to open emscripten created huge .js file in a syntax highlighting editor
  597. # [13:32] <smaug____> rniwa: and Apple and Opera, pretty much
  598. # [13:32] <rniwa> smaug____: yeah.
  599. # [13:32] <smaug____> the old Opera
  600. # [13:32] <roc> oh yeah
  601. # [13:32] <roc> Opera supports Filesystem API now!
  602. # [13:32] <rniwa> smaug____: i don't think opera has to ship file system api even if they used webkit/chromium
  603. # [13:33] <roc> why wouldn't they, though? There's no incentive to diverge
  604. # [13:33] <roc> rniwa: all these things are true, yet Mega used the API anyway and dissed other browsers :-)
  605. # [13:33] <roc> well, until we sent a man around to their office to sort them out
  606. # [13:34] <rniwa> roc: it doesn't really matter though
  607. # [13:34] <rniwa> roc: there will always be some websites that use proprietary apis
  608. # [13:34] <rniwa> it's their choice
  609. # [13:34] <doublec> heh, I wonder if we'll see Opera's entry changed on Mega
  610. # [13:35] <roc> rniwa: it does matter when sites like Mega think other browsers should be implementing those APIs
  611. # [13:35] <roc> note: doublec was that man
  612. # [13:36] <rniwa> roc: is Mega that popular?
  613. # [13:37] <roc> yes
  614. # [13:37] <rniwa> roc: huh, i didn't know that.
  615. # [13:37] <roc> well, it had a spurt of popularity at least
  616. # [13:37] <roc> it's new
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  618. # [13:41] <doublec> it's still in the top 200 or so of web sites iirc
  619. # [13:42] <doublec> so it sucks when they say "Use Chrome, other browsers are all outdated"
  620. # [13:43] <MikeSmith> I like the image of doublec being the man you send around to offices to sort people out. It makes hime sounds pretty intimidating.
  621. # [13:43] <doublec> rniwa: technically I'm not sure you'd call their use of the filesystem api proprietary. it was a w3 draft spec, implemented by chrome and there's even an o'reilly book about it.
  622. # [13:43] <MikeSmith> doublec the Enforcer
  623. # [13:43] <doublec> haha
  624. # [13:43] <rniwa> doublec: it seems like Mega lets you select file or drag & drop it?
  625. # [13:44] <doublec> rniwa: yes. You can select directories and it will upload that.
  626. # [13:44] <smaug____> doublec: doesn't matter. It is still google only API
  627. # [13:44] <smaug____> draft spec somewhere in w3 doesn't mean much
  628. # [13:44] <doublec> I don't think it's much different from people that were using Mozilla's audio api to be honest
  629. # [13:44] <rniwa> smaug____: yup.
  630. # [13:45] <rniwa> it's somewhat dubious to claim that API is open & standard just because you've sent it to w3c.
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  632. # [13:45] <doublec> they just lost the bet that others would implement the spec
  633. # [13:45] <smaug____> problem is to know whether a draft spec is something everyone agrees (like DOM and such) or just effectively a proposal
  634. # [13:45] <doublec> right
  635. # [13:45] * Joins: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  636. # [13:45] <rniwa> right.
  637. # [13:46] <doublec> that said, the Mega people were very open and friendly and are doing a indexeddb version to replace the filesystem api usage where they can for non-chrome browsres.
  638. # [13:46] <rniwa> also… it could be a proposal if you can modify them to address other vendors' concenrs
  639. # [13:46] <rniwa> 
  640. # [13:46] <rniwa> concerns*
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  642. # [13:47] <doublec> of course, indexeddb is a working draft too I guess :)
  643. # [13:47] <smaug____> yes, but implemented by everyone
  644. # [13:48] * Joins: sedovsek (~robert@89.143.12.238)
  645. # [13:49] <rniwa> smaug____: and that's a big difference.
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  650. # [13:55] <MikeSmith> interesting... David Hasather tweet "The switch to WebKit unfortunately means that Opera Dragonfly is no more." now deleted
  651. # [13:56] <MikeSmith> interesting because he being one who would know
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  653. # [13:56] <hasather> MikeSmith: ;)
  654. # [13:56] <MikeSmith> hey man :)
  655. # [13:56] <MikeSmith> so I imagine you got asked (told) to delete that
  656. # [13:57] <hasather> yep
  657. # [13:57] <smaug____> too late ;)
  658. # [13:57] <MikeSmith> yeah I figured
  659. # [13:57] <MikeSmith> sigh
  660. # [13:57] <hasather> :D
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  664. # [13:58] <MikeSmith> hasather: they gotta figure it would sorta be obvious, about the future for Dragonfly
  665. # [13:58] <MikeSmith> anyway you did some great work on that
  666. # [13:58] <MikeSmith> glad that part is OSS at least :)
  667. # [13:59] <hasather> MikeSmith: it's pretty tightly coupled to Presto, so yea. And thanks!
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  670. # [14:05] <MikeSmith> heh, leave it to Chris: "I will miss the Douglas Crockford of browsers" http://christianheilmann.com/2013/02/13/i-will-miss-the-douglas-crockford-of-browsers/
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  673. # [14:11] <jgraham> annevk: git log on the commandline
  674. # [14:11] <MikeSmith> "Opera was my linting tool"
  675. # [14:11] <jgraham> Your username/email in the earlier commits was annevk <annevk@annevk.nl> and its now Anne van Kesteren <annevk@5gt2.local>
  676. # [14:12] <annevk> jgraham: brilliant
  677. # [14:12] <annevk> jgraham: so I guess the key setup went less than okay
  678. # [14:13] <jgraham> annevk: Well it should just be the local git config
  679. # [14:13] <jgraham> $ git config --global user.name
  680. # [14:13] <jgraham> and
  681. # [14:13] <jgraham> $ git config --global user.email
  682. # [14:13] * Quits: nvartolomei (~nvartolom@178.168.103.7) (Remote host closed the connection)
  683. # [14:14] <annevk> jgraham: that gives the right results
  684. # [14:19] <jgraham> Cool
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  686. # [14:19] * linclark|afk is now known as linclark
  687. # [14:21] <annevk> well no, because the commits go wrong :)
  688. # [14:21] <darobin> annevk: to look at raw commits, you can try git show deadbeef...
  689. # [14:21] <annevk> but I'll try again
  690. # [14:21] <darobin> (I think there's a --pretty=raw option to get it more raw)
  691. # [14:23] <darobin> note that the committer and author can be different, so that might be the source of your weird issue — GH.app has you log in as committer, but you may have a different author
  692. # [14:24] <Philip`> Given that one of the goals of HTML5 was to encourage competition by documenting the platform well enough to let new people build a new browser engine from scratch without it being prohibitively expensive, and now Opera has decided it's prohibitively expensive even though they've already got a mostly-working engine, is that goal anything other than a pointless fantasy?
  693. # [14:24] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|brb
  694. # [14:27] <darobin> Philip`: I don't know, let's build a browser from scratch and see if it works :)
  695. # [14:32] <slightlyoff> annevk: oy, yeah, that font load thing is pretty terrible
  696. # [14:33] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@ad006026.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) (Quit: jdaggett)
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  698. # [14:36] * abstractj|brb is now known as abstractj
  699. # [14:39] <darobin> fantasai: can you forward your ruby comments to public-i18n-cjk please?
  700. # [14:43] <MikeSmith> Let's do darobin idea about writing a browser engine completely in JavaScript. And then let's use that to build an OS...
  701. # [14:43] <darobin> MikeSmith: that's what I have in mind :)
  702. # [14:43] <darobin> I just need to find someone crazy enough to pay me for it
  703. # [14:43] <darobin> the Inception Engine
  704. # [14:44] <MikeSmith> Jon von Tetzschner has money, and he's crazy too
  705. # [14:44] <MikeSmith> so, perfect combination
  706. # [14:44] <darobin> sounds like a plan
  707. # [14:44] <darobin> I already did ruby: https://github.com/darobin/inception/blob/master/lib/elements/ruby.js
  708. # [14:44] <darobin> so the rest is just a SMOP
  709. # [14:46] <darobin> or we could call it Amaya.JS
  710. # [14:46] <darobin> the EU is always worrying about there being enough competition in the browser space, maybe they could grant us a few millions
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  712. # [14:47] <MikeSmith> oh man naming any new Web thing Amaya and having it stick, that'd be fun
  713. # [14:48] <MikeSmith> anyway, I think you're nuts enough to even be working on Servo. And writing stuff in Rust. And even _liking_ to write stuff in Rust.
  714. # [14:48] <jgraham> Javascript is nice, but a browser written in Javascript seems unlikely to be fast enough for anyone to actually use
  715. # [14:48] <MikeSmith> too bad there is only one of you
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  719. # [14:49] <darobin> jgraham: that's the kind of pronouncement that people read ten years later when the project is successful and make fun of you for :)
  720. # [14:50] <jgraham> darobin: I'm not feeling very threatend by that :)
  721. # [14:50] <MikeSmith> jgraham: plus it would be be a browser doing garbage collection. which makes about as much sense as writing an OS in a language that has GC instead of requiring old-school memory housekeeping
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  723. # [14:52] <MikeSmith> anyway, psd++ for pithiest tweet of the day: https://twitter.com/psd/status/301626612724690944 "Browser wars part 3: The Quickening"
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  725. # [14:54] <MikeSmith> slightlyoff: I dig your new ride, man.
  726. # [14:54] <slightlyoff> MikeSmith: hah
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  728. # [15:06] <MikeSmith> hey so is Peter Beverloo not going to do his Last Week in WebKit writeups any more?
  729. # [15:10] <beverloo> Lack of time, MikeSmith
  730. # [15:10] <beverloo> I'm hoping to publish something today
  731. # [15:11] <MikeSmith> hey it's beverloo
  732. # [15:12] <MikeSmith> good to hear you're still at it
  733. # [15:12] <MikeSmith> you left an information vacuum there for a while
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  735. # [15:13] <beverloo> I'd almost consider saying sorry for being busy :)
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  747. # [15:36] <annevk> slightlyoff: from what I hear they consider that API pretty a much done deal
  748. # [15:36] <slightlyoff> annevk: will discuss with Tab
  749. # [15:37] <annevk> slightlyoff: what's still blocking Future atm?
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  751. # [15:38] <slightlyoff> annevk: I need to do the polyfill and respond to one of the internal questions about it by one of our TC39 folks
  752. # [15:38] <annevk> k
  753. # [15:39] <MikeSmith> beverloo: wasn't trying to make you feel guilty :) Whatever you been busy on I expect it's probably awesome
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  775. # [16:14] <annevk> Philip`: it has helped Safari and is helping Servo
  776. # [16:15] <annevk> Philip`: and helped Opera through numerous rewrites, but yeah, it's not entirely clear
  777. # [16:22] <annevk> GitHub now uses /annevk again, maybe because I changed the login to be my email address...
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  779. # [16:23] <sangwhan> I'm going to throw out a pretty silly question here - are political r-(s) common?
  780. # [16:27] <Ms2ger> darobin, yeah, HG fixes everything :)
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  782. # [16:27] <jgraham> Can lead to mercurial poisoning though
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  784. # [16:28] <annevk> beverloo: do another one of those tweets for WHATWG
  785. # [16:29] <annevk> beverloo: even howcome gets it wrong!
  786. # [16:29] <annevk> sangwhan: hmm?
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  788. # [16:30] <sangwhan> annevk: just wondering if crap code is the only way to get a r-
  789. # [16:30] <annevk> sangwhan: well not in line with project goals is another
  790. # [16:31] <annevk> sangwhan: and those are vague of course
  791. # [16:31] <annevk> e.g. Mozilla let some XForms stuff happen for a while, but now most of that is gone
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  793. # [16:31] <annevk> don't really know the entire story around that though, just know that it happened
  794. # [16:31] <sangwhan> annevk: Project goals sounds like it has a lot of potential to get political
  795. # [16:32] * Joins: kinetik (~kinetik@121.99.36.162)
  796. # [16:32] <annevk> uhuh
  797. # [16:32] <Ms2ger> We used to take pretty much everything, AIUI
  798. # [16:32] <Ms2ger> Remember, we used to support python
  799. # [16:32] <annevk> I didn't :p
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  801. # [16:33] <jgraham> I knew that!
  802. # [16:33] <sangwhan> Dunno, I just got this impression by comparing rejects on bugs.webkit.org and bugzilla.mozilla.org
  803. # [16:33] <jgraham> Mark Hammond did it, right?
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  805. # [16:33] <Ms2ger> I dunno
  806. # [16:33] <Ms2ger> This was landed in CVS without authorship information, IIRC
  807. # [16:34] * Ms2ger had some fun removing that code
  808. # [16:34] <sangwhan> Could be that I'm looking at it subjectively because so far I'm not uber happy
  809. # [16:34] <Ms2ger> Anyway, I guess I should mention Mozilla is hiring :)
  810. # [16:34] <Ms2ger> Hi sangwhan!
  811. # [16:34] * sangwhan waves back to Ms2ger
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  813. # [16:35] <sangwhan> Especially, the absolute code size of Webkit is overwhelming
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  815. # [16:36] <Ms2ger> A lot bigger than Gecko ;)
  816. # [16:38] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
  817. # [16:38] <sangwhan> No more having the entire source history on my laptop at least :)
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  820. # [16:49] <annevk> jgraham: I knew it, but I didn't support it (was my lame joke)
  821. # [16:50] <beverloo> annevk, related: https://twitter.com/littlecalculist/status/301717526465896448
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  823. # [16:51] <annevk> beverloo: oh he is joking
  824. # [16:51] <annevk> beverloo: took me long enough :)
  825. # [16:51] <beverloo> :)
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  848. # [17:49] <annevk> "I never understood the implicit assumption that 'open-source' makes monopolies good for you."
  849. # [17:50] <annevk> https://twitter.com/sgalineau/status/301733367324504065
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  853. # [17:54] * Ms2ger was surprised to see email about a Bacon API
  854. # [17:54] <jgraham> ?!
  855. # [17:54] * Quits: pyrsmk (~pyrsmk@220.220.138.88.rev.sfr.net) (Quit: tzing)
  856. # [17:55] <Ms2ger> Turned out to read "Beacon", unfortunately
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  858. # [17:58] <marcosc> oh :(
  859. # [17:58] <marcosc> bacon.crispy(); …. mmmm bacon….
  860. # [17:59] <jgraham> I see it as a good use case for the async API
  861. # [17:59] <jgraham> I mean DOMFuture
  862. # [18:00] <jgraham> Because making good bacon is seriously async
  863. # [18:00] <jgraham> Like, you probably want to start with the part where you get the pig
  864. # [18:00] <Hixie> sigh, a sad day for the web today
  865. # [18:00] <jgraham> and a pig is really a promise that will one day return bacon
  866. # [18:00] <Hixie> annevk: "set" is by definition unordered, imho
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  868. # [18:01] <marcosc> jgraham: :)
  869. # [18:02] <MikeSmith> jgraham: solid gold, man :)
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  871. # [18:09] <jgraham> annevk: I tend to agree with Hixie fwiw. I think ordered set would be clearer
  872. # [18:09] <slightlyoff> I, for one, am enjoying watching people trip over their poorly-thought-through piles of preferences
  873. # [18:10] <slightlyoff> it's like nobody has ever asked anyone on the web to stack-rank what they want, most to least
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  875. # [18:12] <annevk> still waiting for my pet hippo
  876. # [18:12] <jgraham> slightlyoff: huh?
  877. # [18:13] <slightlyoff> jgraham: nevermind.
  878. # [18:14] * GPHemsley wonders what the sad-inducer-of-the-day is
  879. # [18:14] <Ms2ger> GPHemsley, Opera
  880. # [18:14] <GPHemsley> ?
  881. # [18:15] <Ms2ger> http://my.opera.com/ODIN/blog/300-million-users-and-move-to-webkit
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  883. # [18:17] <GPHemsley> "a browser is much more than just a renderer and a JS engine" barely
  884. # [18:17] <miketaylr> it has a few buttons too
  885. # [18:18] <Ms2ger> Not particularly nice ones, in their case
  886. # [18:18] <GPHemsley> even the buttons are all starting to look the same at this point
  887. # [18:18] * darobin read that as the Bacon API too
  888. # [18:18] <GPHemsley> aren't they essentially obsoleting themselves?
  889. # [18:19] <GPHemsley> now there will be zero reason to use Opera
  890. # [18:19] <GPHemsley> just like there is zero reason to use Safari
  891. # [18:19] <GPHemsley> (except by accident)
  892. # [18:19] <annevk> https://o.twimg.com/1/proxy.jpg?t=FQQVBBheaHR0cDovLzI1Lm1lZGlhLnR1bWJsci5jb20vYzMxNDkzY2NjZmJjYzAwNzc3YWYxYTRkYjRjZmYyOTEvdHVtYmxyX21pNjRxcHMxRkgxcnF2eTEybzFfNDAwLmpwZxQCFgASAA&s=CX4Z-zv4t9SbB8nIo-4fXADqLJwsdyun9Xju4GWAP-s
  893. # [18:20] <annevk> beautiful
  894. # [18:21] * GPHemsley seems to recall some chatter a few years ago about Firefox doing the same
  895. # [18:21] <Ms2ger> There's always chatter
  896. # [18:21] <Ms2ger> We just have competent CEOs
  897. # [18:21] <GPHemsley> ah
  898. # [18:22] <GPHemsley> so it's back to Firefox vs. the World again, huh?
  899. # [18:22] <GPHemsley> with IE just... there
  900. # [18:23] <Ms2ger> Sounds right
  901. # [18:23] <GPHemsley> or maybe it will be Firefox + IE vs Google
  902. # [18:23] <annevk> Hixie: so we're agreed it's different from a list?
  903. # [18:23] <GPHemsley> that could be fun
  904. # [18:24] <annevk> Hixie: oh the spec calls it an ordered set even
  905. # [18:24] <annevk> Hixie: I guess I could rename the algorithms to also say ordered set
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  907. # [18:24] <annevk> Hixie: you're talking about the "set parser" and "set serializer" right?
  908. # [18:25] <GPHemsley> Ms2ger: Oh, interesting. A commenter on that post invoked the rumor as if it were present-day.
  909. # [18:25] * Joins: say2joe (~say2joe@204.56.108.2)
  910. # [18:26] <annevk> Yeah, Opera's Asa Dotzler tweeted about it too
  911. # [18:27] <GPHemsley> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=840928
  912. # [18:28] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  913. # [18:28] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
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  915. # [18:29] <GPHemsley> (but then again, Ms2ger already knew about that)
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  917. # [18:31] <sangwhan> Can't wait to see what Asa Dotzler is going to write regarding this
  918. # [18:31] * sangwhan gets the popcorn bag
  919. # [18:32] <Hixie> annevk: i would not name the variables after their type. You don't call a loop index variable "integer", you call it "index". You don't call a string that contains the user's name "string", you call it "username"
  920. # [18:33] <annevk> oh variables
  921. # [18:33] <annevk> but that's something else
  922. # [18:33] <annevk> where's that?
  923. # [18:33] <annevk> aaah HTMLCollection
  924. # [18:34] <Hixie> yeah, collection
  925. # [18:34] <annevk> Hixie: suggestion?
  926. # [18:34] <Hixie> not "Let set be an empty list" :-)
  927. # [18:34] <annevk> oh you
  928. # [18:34] <Hixie> how about "let elements be an empty list"
  929. # [18:35] <Hixie> or "let result be"
  930. # [18:35] <annevk> that's good, elements would be confusing with element in the next paragraph
  931. # [18:35] <annevk> ty!
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  933. # [18:38] <tantek> Hixie, do you have a grammar for HixieScript? (all the pseudocode written in "let … " etc. in the spec(s)) ?
  934. # [18:38] <Hixie> tantek: yeah. http://ian.hixie.ch/bible/english
  935. # [18:40] <tantek> "let" is not found on that page :P
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  937. # [18:40] <annevk> when you introduce a variable use let, when you reuse it use set
  938. # [18:41] <annevk> Let x be y. Set x to z.
  939. # [18:41] <Hixie> tantek: it defers to regular english :-)
  940. # [18:41] <annevk> Hixie: not for filename!
  941. # [18:41] <Hixie> yeah i generally try to use "let" when i'm introducing and "set" when i'm changing things
  942. # [18:41] <tantek> HixieScript seems far more constrained than "regular english" and certainly has a particular style/feel to it.
  943. # [18:42] <Hixie> annevk: the actual reason i used "file name" was that there were numerous places where i had things like "name of the file" and so forth
  944. # [18:42] <Hixie> annevk: and "filename of the file" read really weird
  945. # [18:42] <Hixie> tantek: the feel is just because i'm always copy/pasting
  946. # [18:42] <annevk> Hixie: reading through the diff I thought that might have been it
  947. # [18:42] <tantek> and also documenting conventions like: "not name the variables after their type"
  948. # [18:42] <Hixie> "not name the variables after their type" is just good programming practice
  949. # [18:43] <tantek> [citation]
  950. # [18:43] <Hixie> - Hixie, 2013
  951. # [18:43] <annevk> tantek: feel free to add to http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Howto_spec
  952. # [18:45] <annevk> I try to write my specs somewhat consistently so once you grasp one you get the others, but things change over time...
  953. # [18:45] * marcosc wonders [picture of velociraptor] … what's more important: interop or ease of use of APIs?
  954. # [18:47] <Ms2ger> marcosc, WebKit
  955. # [18:47] <tantek> Hixie, I can't put that in a <cite> according to your spec text on <cite> :P
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  957. # [18:47] <Hixie> tantek: yup :-)
  958. # [18:47] <marcosc> Ms2ger: correct! :)
  959. # [18:47] <annevk> marcosc: I think the contrast is between ease of use and exposing low enough primitives for the really hard cases
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  961. # [18:49] <tantek> thanks annevk - http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Howto_spec#Defining_an_attribute and latter in the page covers a lot of HixieScript - I might create a separate page for it with known constructs as a summary.
  962. # [18:50] <marcosc> sure, but if you were to take a platform wholesale warts and all (e.g., say WebOS) and "standardize it" (i.e., provide specs, tests, and two conforming imps), would that be enough?
  963. # [18:50] <Hixie> tantek: honestly i wouldn't focus too much on the exact constructs we use, it's more the concept of "write prose like you would write code" and "cover every eventuality" that matters
  964. # [18:51] <Hixie> like, my style vs the ecma style, who cares, both are fine
  965. # [18:51] <Hixie> ecma's might even be better
  966. # [18:51] <Hixie> i just don't have the discipline for it
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  968. # [18:52] <marcosc> Do developers really case about good API design? Like people still code for iOS in objective-c… and that stuff looks pretty ugly… and java is also extremely successful
  969. # [18:52] <marcosc> but it's also hella ugly
  970. # [18:52] <marcosc> So I'm left wondering, like a velociraptor, should we give a crap about API design? And if so, to what extent?
  971. # [18:52] <Ms2ger> marcosc, two independent implementations? That's what the web is, surely
  972. # [18:52] <marcosc> Ms2ger: well, three now :)
  973. # [18:52] <Ms2ger> On another note, anybody here feel like writing a new browser?
  974. # [18:53] * marcosc crickets
  975. # [18:53] <Ms2ger> I promise we won't have any pesky users
  976. # [18:53] <Hixie> marcosc: we need to care about good api design on the web because we've sacrificed so many other things that the other platforms rely on to get where they got
  977. # [18:53] * marcosc puts his hand a little way up… then quickly puts it down again before anyone sees
  978. # [18:54] <Ms2ger> Too late
  979. # [18:54] <tantek> Ms2ger, been there, done that.
  980. # [18:54] <Ms2ger> tantek, excellent, I was hoping to recruit you :)
  981. # [18:54] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  982. # [18:54] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|lunch
  983. # [18:54] <tantek> Ms2ger, just get MSFT to open source Tasman and we can have some fun. ;)
  984. # [18:55] <Ms2ger> Heh
  985. # [18:55] <Ms2ger> I think I'd prefer Presto at this point, if we're open-sourcing :)
  986. # [18:55] <tantek> Tasman is smaller ;)
  987. # [18:55] <Ms2ger> Exactly :)
  988. # [18:56] <tantek> But yes, Opera should open source Presto regardless.
  989. # [18:56] <marcosc> Hixie: I feel like caring… but I'm looking at the SysApps API stuff and I feel like crying. I don't know if I want to get into a shit fight about those APIs or if it would be better to just let those things be standardized (it's basically the B2G APIs, which feel very rushed).
  990. # [18:56] <Ms2ger> Hah
  991. # [18:57] <Hixie> marcosc: are any other browsers going to implement them? if yes, then you should care.
  992. # [18:57] <sangwhan> tantek: If you put it that way, Dillo is small (but may need a lot of work to bring up to the game) too :)
  993. # [18:57] <annevk> Hixie: is your todo list public these days?
  994. # [18:57] <Hixie> annevk: bugs, e-mail
  995. # [18:57] <annevk> Hixie: also, do update http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Specs_todo ?
  996. # [18:57] <Hixie> annevk: to say what?
  997. # [18:57] <annevk> Hixie: I'm wondering if there's anything more important than Fetch and spec maintenance to be worked on
  998. # [18:58] <Hixie> ah
  999. # [18:58] <annevk> I plan to work on DOMFuture, and spec on(), and fix your DOM event thingie eventually (once I figure out the shadow DOM story), but that's all relatively minor
  1000. # [18:59] <marcosc> It would be good to find a home quickly for DOMFuture
  1001. # [18:59] <annevk> there's a home: DOM
  1002. # [18:59] <annevk> just need to settle on the details
  1003. # [18:59] <marcosc> ok, if there is anything I can do
  1004. # [18:59] <marcosc> review or whatever, let me know
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  1006. # [19:00] <smaug____> annevk: fix event thingie? I'd say add something on top of the current stuff
  1007. # [19:00] <annevk> review Alex's GitHub page?
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  1011. # [19:01] <marcosc> I guess that will do for now
  1012. # [19:01] <annevk> smaug____: right, that's on(), unless you mean something else?
  1013. # [19:01] <annevk> marcosc: my plan is to just write out that design
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  1021. # [19:03] * smaug____ would still like to see how Presto handles cycles between native and JS code
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  1023. # [19:03] <marcosc> be cool if Opera released their code … for historical reasons or whatever
  1024. # [19:04] <marcosc> or just because it would be cool :)
  1025. # [19:05] <smaug____> and to possibly learn new ways to implement certain things
  1026. # [19:05] <marcosc> yep
  1027. # [19:06] <TabAtkins> annevk: What's this about rewriting the URL parser? Are you asking me to or something?
  1028. # [19:07] <annevk> TabAtkins: since you said it was so easy for CSS and fantasai called state-machines assembly, I figured I could ask you to take a look at the URL Standard to see if it was possible
  1029. # [19:08] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  1030. # [19:08] <annevk> TabAtkins: given that there's not much tokens I suspect not really, but who knows, maybe we can do better :)
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  1033. # [19:09] <MikeSmith> annevk: meaning state-machine algorithms in specs?
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  1035. # [19:10] <annevk> MikeSmith: uhuh
  1036. # [19:13] <MikeSmith> well ... that's an interesting way of looking at things I guess
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  1040. # [19:15] <MikeSmith> though I reckon the she must just mean they're like imperative code
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  1042. # [19:15] <gsnedders> smaug____: Native code as in the rest of the browser, UI, etc., or as in DOM objects?
  1043. # [19:16] <jgraham> gsnedders: DOM objects
  1044. # [19:16] <gsnedders> Assume you mean the former.
  1045. # [19:16] <annevk> I think my Twitter feed might be an echo chamber. It has a lot of people talking about bad stuff they read elsewhere, but none of that is in my feed.
  1046. # [19:16] <gsnedders> jgraham: Was that obvious if I read more context? :)
  1047. # [19:17] <jgraham> gsnedders: Well, if by "more context" you mean like "the conversation for like one year ago"
  1048. # [19:17] <smaug____> gsnedders: DOM object <-> JS
  1049. # [19:17] <jgraham> s/ like//
  1050. # [19:17] <jgraham> s/for/from/
  1051. # [19:17] <smaug____> gsnedders: the thing which webkit doesn't really handle at all ;)
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  1053. # [19:18] <gsnedders> smaug____: Provided we don't end up with a stupid web API because of one impl… :)
  1054. # [19:18] <jgraham> smaug____: It's a pity that none of [sof|jl|bratell] are around since they probably actually understand this stuff
  1055. # [19:19] <gsnedders> The basic answer is "we don't, really". The long answer is it happens to nicely fall out of how other things work. :)
  1056. # [19:20] <jgraham> (I suppose some others do as well, but they also aren't on irc, so that still doesn't help)
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  1060. # [19:20] <gsnedders> (I have a reasonable idea of how this all works, at least.)
  1061. # [19:23] <gsnedders> Anyhow, supper time for me.
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  1067. # [19:26] <MikeSmith> jgraham: what you mean by jl not being around? you mean just at the moment, today?
  1068. # [19:27] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: In #whatwg, I was presuming?
  1069. # [19:27] <MikeSmith> ah ok
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  1072. # [19:32] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Right, we didn't take them out and shoot them or anything
  1073. # [19:33] <jgraham> But they aren't really avaliable on any channel where smaug____ can cross-question them :)
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  1075. # [19:35] <MikeSmith> I see
  1076. # [19:36] <MikeSmith> everybody should just be on this channel
  1077. # [19:37] <smaug____> :)
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  1082. # [19:41] <jacobolus> g'morning
  1083. # [19:41] <gsnedders> smaug____: The very short detailed answer is marking everything reachable from JS scopes, and let host objects have their own mark-phase callbacks (which can mark more). This means that such cycles aren't a problem, because they're just instantly out-of-scope. However, it makes things like XHR objects hard because they can call a callback which is unreachable from any JS scope.
  1084. # [19:41] <gsnedders> And the hacks for XHR and the like are ugly.
  1085. # [19:42] <smaug____> gsnedders: ok, so it is about tracing everything?
  1086. # [19:42] * abstractj|afk is now known as abstractj
  1087. # [19:42] <smaug____> somewhat similar to Trident, I guess
  1088. # [19:42] <smaug____> I mean, effectively use GC for everything
  1089. # [19:42] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  1090. # [19:42] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
  1091. # [19:42] <gsnedders> smaug____: Yeah, indeed
  1092. # [19:43] <smaug____> gsnedders: and for cycles within C++ code something manual is used
  1093. # [19:44] <gsnedders> smaug____: Relatedly, we still use a very naïve mark/sweep GC.
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  1095. # [19:44] <gsnedders> smaug____: Yeah. I don't know too much about how except "it's ugly" :)
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  1097. # [19:45] <sangwhan> gsnedders: It's not _that_ ugly, it "could use improvements". There are uglier bits in Opera.
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  1099. # [19:46] <Ms2ger> sangwhan, I'd love to see them :)
  1100. # [19:46] <gsnedders> sangwhan: I'm just quoting bratell here :)
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  1103. # [19:46] <gsnedders> sangwhan: And I avoid this stuff enough, yet alone touching the really bad parts.
  1104. # [19:47] <sangwhan> gsnedders: Consider yourself lucky :-)
  1105. # [19:47] <sangwhan> Ms2ger: Yeah, let's see what Opera management wants to do with Presto in a couple years.
  1106. # [19:48] <Ms2ger> Bury it deeper
  1107. # [19:48] <sangwhan> Part of me hopes that someone disgruntled employee leaks it, but that probably won't be me
  1108. # [19:49] <sangwhan> Would be a shame to see it buried away. Even if every web developer hated Presto, I still have way more love than hate for that code.
  1109. # [19:49] <Ms2ger> Probably, excellent
  1110. # [19:51] <TabAtkins> annevk: I can take a look, I suppose.
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  1112. # [19:52] * Philip` wonders how the code compares in quality to the original open-sourced Netscape code
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  1114. # [19:53] <jgraham> My impression is that Presto is like the opposite of Gecko (in some sense)
  1115. # [19:53] <jgraham> Most things are implemented in a very minimalist way
  1116. # [19:53] <jgraham> (I am totally not a good person to judge of course)
  1117. # [19:54] <TabAtkins> annevk: You're already using a state machine for parsing, so I assume you mean you're looking if it can be simplified by running a tokenization step first?
  1118. # [19:55] <Ms2ger> jgraham, minimalist?
  1119. # [19:56] <TabAtkins> It's possible, though I'd need to understand more of the structure of URLs first. If there are higher-level constructs that you can infer locally, such as "alphanumeric sequence" and "/" and "." or whatever, that would help.
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  1154. # [20:43] <JonathanNeal> This could have been titled "quirks mode" http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/workflow.png
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  1161. # [20:53] <annevk> TabAtkins: yeah, don't think so really
  1162. # [20:53] <annevk> TabAtkins: it's highly contextual
  1163. # [20:54] <annevk> TabAtkins: maybe if you switch on things like : / \ @ etc. you might be able to get somewhere I suppose
  1164. # [20:54] <annevk> TabAtkins: though I guess the other thing is that for URLs a state machine makes a lot of sense so you can implement them as a single-pass
  1165. # [20:54] <annevk> TabAtkins: which is good for perf
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  1167. # [20:58] <Hixie> annevk: updated relative url bug
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  1175. # [21:01] <annevk> Hixie: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20926#c4 wouldn't navigate (it would just update the URL), but I guess you're right that we should initialize url if input is given hmm
  1176. # [21:02] <Hixie> er right, my bad
  1177. # [21:02] <Hixie> but yeah, the point is the same
  1178. # [21:02] <Hixie> i would have thought the same was true of new URL('...') btw
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  1180. # [21:02] <Hixie> you could drop .href entirely and the API would still work fine
  1181. # [21:02] <Hixie> in principle
  1182. # [21:02] <Hixie> (not as specced)
  1183. # [21:04] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
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  1186. # [21:05] <annevk> Hixie: I guess my thought was that when creating an <a> you'd parse the URL and such
  1187. # [21:05] <annevk> Hixie: as is e.g. done for <img>
  1188. # [21:06] <annevk> Hixie: and then set the result pieces on the object
  1189. # [21:06] <Hixie> well for <img> we have to do something to parse the url because we need to hit the network
  1190. # [21:06] <Hixie> for <a> we don't need to do anything unless the API is used
  1191. # [21:06] <Hixie> i'd rather not have to copy and paste the same logic for <a> and <area> and everywhere else that does this
  1192. # [21:07] <Hixie> would be better for just URLUtils to have all the logic and just to have the minimum number of hooks
  1193. # [21:07] <Hixie> which is basically just an algorithm to get the current value, and algorithm to get the current base url, and an algorithm to set the value
  1194. # [21:07] <Hixie> note that you can't preparse <a href=""> anyway, since if the base url changes, the output changes too
  1195. # [21:08] <Hixie> you have to reparse it each time
  1196. # [21:08] <annevk> yeah you're right, new URL doesn't have that particular problem
  1197. # [21:08] <annevk> which is prolly why stuff is somewhat broken
  1198. # [21:09] <annevk> I'll fix tomorrow
  1199. # [21:12] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
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  1202. # [21:17] <annevk> The people across the street are making my free WiFi slow :(
  1203. # [21:17] <Hixie> so, nobody magically came up with an algorithm for me in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20524 while i was slacking, huh
  1204. # [21:18] <Hixie> bummer
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  1212. # [21:24] <TabAtkins> annevk42: Tokenization steps are usually done inline with the parser anyway (you implement it as a generator that pops out the next token when you ask for it, as the parser runs), so the perf isn't significant.
  1213. # [21:24] <TabAtkins> But yeah, I'm thinking URLs are too contextual to benefit from a tokenization pass.
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  1216. # [21:32] * marcosc tries to embroil annevk42 and slightlyoff in a discussion about DOMFuture vs DOMRequest …. wish there was a way to get Ms2ger into the mix :) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-sysapps/2013Feb/0048.html
  1217. # [21:32] <Ms2ger> Hah, sysapps
  1218. # [21:32] <zewt> what a hell is sysapps
  1219. # [21:32] <marcosc> zewt: widgets 2.0 :)
  1220. # [21:33] <marcosc> http://www.w3.org/2012/sysapps/
  1221. # [21:33] <Ms2ger> B2G
  1222. # [21:33] <marcosc> WIDGETS!
  1223. # [21:33] <marcosc> :)
  1224. # [21:34] <zewt> discussions about that sort of thing should be on webapps or whatwg, doing it on some obscure list guarantees less input
  1225. # [21:34] <marcosc> zewt: the discussion is happening there because all the APIs are using the DOMRequest pattern from B2G
  1226. # [21:35] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  1227. # [21:35] <marcosc> And given that SysApps is really a standardization B2G, then it doesn't make sense to have it anywhere else
  1228. # [21:35] <zewt> if it's an api with general application, at least (which iirc those may)
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  1233. # [21:35] <zewt> ... what the heck is b2g? smells buzzwordy
  1234. # [21:35] <marcosc> right now, it ain't … but hopefully it will be.
  1235. # [21:36] <marcosc> zewt: quit trollin
  1236. # [21:36] <marcosc> :)
  1237. # [21:36] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@60.234.66.20)
  1238. # [21:36] <zewt> i can't help smelling whag I'm smelling :P
  1239. # [21:36] <Ms2ger> Firefox OS
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  1241. # [21:36] <zewt> also touchscreen typoing
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  1243. # [21:37] <zewt> two words that never belong aside one another
  1244. # [21:37] <marcosc> heh
  1245. # [21:37] <zewt> technically three, i suppose
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  1249. # [21:43] <volkmar> marcosc: I think neither sicking or I want to make sysapps a B2G WG
  1250. # [21:44] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@2620:149:4:1b01:b464:6482:bc3e:74d7)
  1251. # [21:44] <volkmar> (argh, I should really change that nickname...)
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  1254. # [21:46] <marcosc> volkmar: Ms2ger and I were just messing around :)
  1255. # [21:47] <volkmar> marcosc: that's all Ms2ger does ;)
  1256. # [21:50] <volkmar> marcosc: btw, how does DOMRequest would require things to be wrapped up in functions while DOMFuture wouldn't?
  1257. # [21:51] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.114.104.154)
  1258. # [21:52] <marcosc> Depends on .then()… if .then() understands that that is means after whatever "you are doing or did" finishes, then it should work.
  1259. # [21:52] <marcosc> like:
  1260. # [21:53] <marcosc> var promise = something.then(function(){}); setTimeout(function(){doSomething(); promise.then(doSomethingElse)})
  1261. # [21:55] <volkmar> how is that behaviour related to DOMRequest interface?
  1262. # [21:55] <volkmar> I mean, that behaviour working or not working
  1263. # [21:56] * Joins: anon (~x@unaffiliated/anon)
  1264. # [21:56] <anon> hi
  1265. # [21:56] <marcosc> well, in IDBRequest, you need to do everything in one go:
  1266. # [21:57] <marcosc> (function()(var request = indexedDB.open("todos", version);
  1267. # [21:57] <marcosc> request.onsuccess = function(e) {…}()}
  1268. # [21:57] <volkmar> in IDB, you can do:
  1269. # [21:57] <volkmar> var r = idb.open();
  1270. # [21:57] <volkmar> r.onsuccess = function() {};
  1271. # [21:58] <volkmar> but that's just an event handler
  1272. # [21:58] <volkmar> that should also exist with DOMFuture
  1273. # [21:58] <volkmar> just named accept instead of success
  1274. # [21:58] <marcosc> the problem is that you are opening before setting the listener
  1275. # [21:58] <volkmar> (according to what slightlyoff told me, .onaccept should work in DOMFuture)
  1276. # [21:58] <marcosc> that's counter intuitive. You've started an operation before you set listeners for it
  1277. # [21:59] <volkmar> marcosc: that behaviour is because of DOM events
  1278. # [21:59] * Parts: anon (~x@unaffiliated/anon) ("Leaving")
  1279. # [21:59] <volkmar> and DOMFuture keeps DOM events
  1280. # [21:59] <marcosc> It's not related to DOM events. Consider XHR.
  1281. # [21:59] <volkmar> based on that, DOMFuture is simply DOMRequest with renamed attributes and events
  1282. # [22:00] <marcosc> XHR is the counter example. You need to explicitly call .send() for anything to happen
  1283. # [22:00] <volkmar> (and .then(), .done() and other additions)
  1284. # [22:00] <volkmar> marcosc: sure
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  1288. # [22:00] <volkmar> but DOMFuture works the same way though
  1289. # [22:00] <marcosc> so, IndexedDB should not have been requests, they should have been tasks
  1290. # [22:01] <volkmar> or I misunderstood you
  1291. # [22:01] <volkmar> with DOMFuture you have to do:
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  1293. # [22:01] <marcosc> volkmar: maybe they do, and then we are going to have the same problem :)
  1294. # [22:01] <marcosc> That's why we need lots of people looking at them
  1295. # [22:01] <volkmar> doSomethingAsync().done(function() { \o/; }, function() { :(; });
  1296. # [22:02] <marcosc> Sometimes that makes sense… sometimes not. It has to be looked at on a case by case basis
  1297. # [22:02] <volkmar> marcosc: the promise idea is that when an action happen, it returns an object telling you that the result of the action will be found there
  1298. # [22:03] <volkmar> by design, you can't set listeners before getting that objects
  1299. # [22:03] <volkmar> or I'm missing something
  1300. # [22:03] <marcosc> no, you are probably right. Butt, like I said, it might not be the right pattern for what we are trying to do. It depends on the use case.
  1301. # [22:03] <marcosc> The use case for each API, that is
  1302. # [22:04] <volkmar> marcosc: what developers are asking is a promise-like object
  1303. # [22:04] <marcosc> We should not just say "DOMFuture ALL THE THINGS!" :)
  1304. # [22:04] <Ms2ger> We should not?
  1305. # [22:04] <volkmar> I feel like ppl say that already ;)
  1306. # [22:04] <TabAtkins> (Those people are right.)
  1307. # [22:04] <marcosc> volkmar: no, we should totally resist that
  1308. # [22:05] <volkmar> having a promise design is great
  1309. # [22:05] <volkmar> promise designed object
  1310. # [22:05] <volkmar> anyway... I'm starving
  1311. # [22:05] <marcosc> volkmar: we should look at each API and evaluate the best way to do something. If it fits a promise, then yay… if not, then, we use something else.
  1312. # [22:06] <marcosc> volkmar: lets chat on the list. But thanks for chatting about this.
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  1315. # [22:06] <volkmar> marcosc: sure
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  1317. # [22:06] <volkmar> I will write some emails tomorrow I guess
  1318. # [22:07] <volkmar> ttyl
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  1326. # [22:20] <annevk42> marcosc: yes we should DOMFuture all the things
  1327. # [22:20] <annevk42> marcosc: that's the whole point
  1328. # [22:20] * annevk42 is now known as annevk
  1329. # [22:21] <TabAtkins> Futures are roughly a superset of events anyway, no?
  1330. # [22:21] <annevk> no
  1331. # [22:21] <annevk> events are still needed
  1332. # [22:22] <annevk> Futures are useful for all yes/no operations
  1333. # [22:22] <annevk> async yes/no operations
  1334. # [22:23] <annevk> such as geolocation / XHR / <canvas>.getBlob() / ...
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  1336. # [22:24] <nimbu> MikeSmith: !!!!
  1337. # [22:24] <nimbu> do not despair!!
  1338. # [22:24] <nimbu> the web is not dead!
  1339. # [22:24] <nimbu> there is something to cheer for!
  1340. # [22:25] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.107.17)
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  1343. # [22:29] <TabAtkins> nimbu: I dunno what you're talking about, I'm just designing iOS apps now.
  1344. # [22:30] <nimbu> :)))))))))))))))
  1345. # [22:30] <odinho> At least I'm dead X)
  1346. # [22:30] <nimbu> TabAtkins: that would be hilarious.
  1347. # [22:30] * nimbu slaps odinho
  1348. # [22:30] * odinho at work 09-22, that's... 13 hours. No wonder I feel bad.
  1349. # [22:30] <odinho> So I'll go home now.
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  1351. # [22:30] <nimbu> :||
  1352. # [22:31] <odinho> nimbu: Thanks, now I'm dead AND got slapped :-O
  1353. # [22:31] <nimbu> TabAtkins: you should do a 'what i will be working on for the new year post' which basically lists 10 app ideas for April fool's joke
  1354. # [22:31] <nimbu> odinho: yeah the slap was not useful.
  1355. # [22:31] <odinho> A little bit maybe :]
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  1361. # [22:37] <MikeSmith> nimbu: :-)
  1362. # [22:38] <MikeSmith> but I'm switching to i0S apps along with TabAtkins
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  1394. # [23:47] <nimbu> ahahahah MikeSmith
  1395. # [23:47] <nimbu> NOOOOOOOOOO
  1396. # [23:47] <nimbu> i cannot imagine that future.
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  1398. # Session Close: Thu Feb 14 00:00:00 2013

The end :)