/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-02-20 / end

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  79. # [03:01] <TabAtkins> Achievement unlocked: wrote a CSS spec pre-preprocessor, so I can preprocess before I preprocess.
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  84. # [03:06] <zewt> keep this up and i'm going to :set expandtabs and you'll cease to exist
  85. # [03:07] <TabAtkins> Or I'll just get fatter.
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  87. # [03:07] <nimbu> ahahaha
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  124. # [05:27] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: it’s pre-processors all the way down!
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  134. # [06:20] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-variables/ is apparently not "pre-processed"
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  212. # [10:37] <cousteau> what's the support for the <a rel=noreferrer> attribute? (is it standard? when was it introduced? what browsers and versions support it?)
  213. # [10:37] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
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  235. # [11:14] <MikeSmith> cousteau: it's standard. It was introduced at least 5 years ago. I think only WebKit supports it
  236. # [11:14] <cousteau> "5 years ago" means HTML 4.01 or so?
  237. # [11:14] <cousteau> or was it already HTML 5?
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  240. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> cousteau: it was added to the current HTML spec back when it was still just called Web Applications 1.0
  241. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> and so it's a new feature in HTML5
  242. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> it wasn't in HTML4
  243. # [11:19] <MikeSmith> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=1118&to=1119
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  246. # [11:23] <gsnedders> cousteau: HTML4 was 15 years ago :P
  247. # [11:23] <cousteau> gsnedders, no HTML4, HTML4.01!
  248. # [11:23] <cousteau> which would be... let me calculate it
  249. # [11:24] <cousteau> interpolating, I calculate HTML4.01 was 14.85 years ago
  250. # [11:24] <cousteau> (that's not how version numbers work, right?)
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  252. # [11:25] <Raymondo> http://blog.whatwg.org/html-is-the-new-html5
  253. # [11:26] <cousteau> is there a page that can tell me whether my browser supports the rel=noreferrer thing? either a list of browsers or a page with a noreferrer link that links to another page that shows me the http request
  254. # [11:26] <cousteau> a page that displays the whole http request would be enough
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  257. # [11:31] <Raymondo> http://jsbin.com/etotur
  258. # [11:34] <marcosc> annevk: when referring to a path component of a URI that needs to be checked for validity, should I use path from RFC3986 or ipath from RFC3987?
  259. # [11:36] <annevk> you should use path from the URL Standard
  260. # [11:37] <annevk> although checked for validity sounds like a spurious concept
  261. # [11:38] <cousteau> hm, both show referrer
  262. # [11:39] <Raymondo> not in chrome
  263. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> cousteau: http://darklaunch.com/tools/test-referer
  264. # [11:39] <cousteau> Raymondo, that's what I was checking
  265. # [11:39] <Garbee> cousteau, I see Mozilla still has an open bug for it to be added. So it at least doesn't work there. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=530396
  266. # [11:40] <Raymondo> that's interesting. I'm on 25/mac and noreferrer works on that jsbin test
  267. # [11:40] <marcosc> annevk: I need to check if "\u0000!£@$%!$£@!!£!£@£124!23412" is ok to use, it's what I mean by validity
  268. # [11:41] <annevk> marcosc: it'll parse, but you won't get the same in return
  269. # [11:41] <marcosc> that's ok:) Looking at the URL spec
  270. # [11:42] <annevk> also, if you have custom scheme like app:// there might not be path parsing
  271. # [11:42] <annevk> we'd have to add it to the whitelist of relative schemes
  272. # [11:42] <cousteau> Raymondo, btw, thanks for the link
  273. # [11:42] <Raymondo> no prob
  274. # [11:42] <annevk> and then make sure it doesn't invoke host parsing I suppose
  275. # [11:43] <cousteau> Garbee, damn, some Firefox bugs really take their time to get fixed
  276. # [11:44] <marcosc> annevk: in FireFox OS, there is a launch_path, which is the path that represents the first resource to load. The origin can be either http:// based or app:// based
  277. # [11:45] <annevk> origin is unrelated to URL parsing
  278. # [11:45] <annevk> URL parsing requires input and optionally a base
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  284. # [12:02] <marcosc> annevk: thanks for the guidance.
  285. # [12:02] <annevk> anytime
  286. # [12:05] * abstractj|away is now known as abstractj
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  288. # [12:09] <annevk> "As only mutating the prototype chain" Can't wait for TC39 to find out :p
  289. # [12:13] <beverloo> annevk, any ideas about potential compatibility impact given http://crbug.com/177176? Should it be filed as a DOM4 bug for reference?
  290. # [12:16] <annevk> beverloo: well we know this can be an issue
  291. # [12:16] <annevk> beverloo: that's why they're all tentatively added to figure out if we can keep them
  292. # [12:17] <beverloo> I recall them being rolled back in WebKit previously because of a compatibility issue
  293. # [12:17] <beverloo> While this seems minor, there may be more out there. I'd be a shame
  294. # [12:17] <beverloo> but good that it's known!
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  297. # [12:17] <annevk> event handlers are a big problem with introducing any new method :(
  298. # [12:17] <annevk> if they're rolled back from WebKit... that news hadn't reached me yet
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  300. # [12:18] <annevk> I'll give up when arv_ / slightlyoff give up
  301. # [12:19] <beverloo> They were rolled in again as well, I think we shipped them with Chrome 23 or Chrome 24 (i.e. out on stable for at least a month or two)
  302. # [12:20] <annevk> ah okay
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  315. # [13:01] <marcosc> mounir: ping me when you are around
  316. # [13:02] <annevk> he's around
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  320. # [13:11] <mounir> yeah, I am
  321. # [13:11] <marcosc> mounir: hi
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  323. # [13:12] <marcosc> mounir: required_features and the permissions members in the manifest... I'm a bit confused by them
  324. # [13:13] <marcosc> If an author writes the permissions in English, what is the value of them to a Chinese user?
  325. # [13:13] <marcosc> Or are permissions used somewhere else?
  326. # [13:13] * Parts: a-ja (~Instantbi@70.230.164.162)
  327. # [13:13] <mounir> marcosc: permissions are keywords
  328. # [13:14] <mounir> not user facing strings
  329. # [13:14] <mounir> some APIs are linked to some permissions
  330. # [13:14] <mounir> the runtime spec do some links
  331. # [13:14] <mounir> like "geolocation"
  332. # [13:15] <marcosc> shouldn't web platform features just be available by default?
  333. # [13:15] <marcosc> like geo
  334. # [13:15] <mounir> marcosc: no
  335. # [13:15] * Joins: JibberJim (~opera@132.185.151.196)
  336. # [13:15] <mounir> marcosc: I mean, depends what you mean
  337. # [13:16] <marcosc> mounir: if we start adding things like that, then it means that you freeze the API access to the platform and everything from the point of release becomes frozen
  338. # [13:16] <marcosc> mounir: if you add an Ice Cream API tomorrow, and it's "Web safe", how will one vendor know to make it available and another not?
  339. # [13:17] <marcosc> vendor A might think, oh, I don't know if we should allow that on the runtime, but vendor B allows it by default
  340. # [13:17] <marcosc> Developers targeting Vendor B's runtime won't do any permission checks, so when their app is run on Vendor A's runtime, the app will fail
  341. # [13:19] <annevk> marcosc: if it's web safe the question won't come up
  342. # [13:19] <mounir> marcosc: I do not know what Firefox OS is doing but how I see it is that stuff like "geolocation" could be a way for the application to say upfront they want to use a permission
  343. # [13:19] <mounir> so the implementation can have a UI that asks the user if he/she wants to give that permission at install time
  344. # [13:19] <annevk> mounir: which is a terrible model btw
  345. # [13:20] <mounir> but that's an implementation detail
  346. # [13:20] <mounir> annevk: sure...
  347. # [13:20] <mounir> but that shouldn't make the app not able to use the permission
  348. # [13:20] <marcosc> mounir: it's not really an implementation detail if it could mean apps run on some platforms and not on others
  349. # [13:20] <mounir> I don't exactly know what FxOS is doing because they kept changing that all the time and it has not really been done in the open...
  350. # [13:21] <mounir> marcosc: if we make a requirement for apps to ask for permissions upfront, there is no incompatibility there
  351. # [13:22] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@ad006026.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  352. # [13:22] <mounir> we could also make some permissions required to be asked upfront depending on the application privilege
  353. # [13:22] <mounir> I think the first model is simpler but not very fault tolerant
  354. # [13:22] <marcosc> mounir: there might be, if one app supports and API and another doesn't (but the developer has built in some kind of fallback for it)
  355. # [13:23] <mounir> marcosc: that is true
  356. # [13:23] <mounir> but there is error callbacks for that
  357. # [13:23] <mounir> like currently, geolocation can be rejected all the time
  358. # [13:23] <mounir> not having the permission would work the same way
  359. # [13:23] <marcosc> Sure, right now I'm only thinking of the installation step
  360. # [13:24] <marcosc> I'm worried apps will not install across runtimes
  361. # [13:24] <marcosc> and that permissions ()
  362. # [13:24] <marcosc> woops
  363. # [13:24] <marcosc> let me try that again
  364. # [13:24] <marcosc> and that permissions (read, readwrite, etc) won't map cleanly to all APIs
  365. # [13:25] <marcosc> Like, for example, that maps ok to contacts, but not too sure about Bluetooth
  366. # [13:25] <marcosc> or to NFC
  367. # [13:25] <marcosc> or even raw sockets
  368. # [13:25] <mounir> marcosc: it doesn't apply to all permissions
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  371. # [13:27] <marcosc> mounir: ok, going to think about it. I'll see what some other FxOS apps are doing/declaring.
  372. # [13:28] * Joins: yorick (~yorick@oftn/member/yorick)
  373. # [13:29] * marcosc also worries about having to capability-tests all APIs for read, rewrite, readcreate, and createonly modes. And define what is available when.
  374. # [13:33] <mounir> marcosc: all of those things should send error events on the DOMRequest if it fails
  375. # [13:33] <mounir> so, instead of capability testing, developers can handle errors
  376. # [13:34] <marcosc> mounir: sure, but I'm thinking from an implementation perspective. If I'm going to publish and API, I now need to define how the API behaves under the four different rules above.
  377. # [13:35] <marcosc> (and then the developer needs to deal with all the different restrictions).
  378. # [13:35] <mounir> marcosc: if there is no read-write aspects (like in most APIs), I guess not
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  380. # [13:36] * marcosc checks...
  381. # [13:37] <marcosc> so, could be contacts, calendar, media storage, network
  382. # [13:37] <marcosc> system settings
  383. # [13:39] <marcosc> mounir: as a developer, I would just set "give me access to everything" to avoid any potential pain
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  389. # [14:19] <Lachy> selectors api is finally going to REC :-)
  390. # [14:20] <Lachy> should be published by tomorrow.
  391. # [14:20] * Quits: JibberJim (~opera@132.185.151.196) (Quit: JibberJim)
  392. # [14:20] <jgraham> Oh, am I allowed to use it now?
  393. # [14:20] * Joins: shepazu (~shepazu@65.14.229.26)
  394. # [14:20] <wilhelm> \o/
  395. # [14:21] <Lachy> jgraham, not yet. It's best to wait till a few errata have been filed first to ensure stability.
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  400. # [14:25] <odinho> :-D I was adventurous and used it today 8)
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  403. # [14:26] <SimonSapin> Lachy: is it time to rename it?
  404. # [14:26] * jgraham votes CSSPath
  405. # [14:27] * sangwhan is waiting for someone to come up with a name that contains the prefix "poly"
  406. # [14:27] <odinho> jgraham: Since there's a CSS global object, it could even be CSS.path()
  407. # [14:28] * Joins: linclark (~clark@c-67-186-35-246.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
  408. # [14:29] <jgraham> odinho: That seems quite long. CSS.sel()
  409. # [14:30] <jgraham> Or CSS.me()
  410. # [14:30] <jgraham> as in "Now I will CSS.me() some elements"
  411. # [14:30] <darobin> or CSS()
  412. # [14:31] <darobin> oh, hey, how about we think of "$" as S for selector?
  413. # [14:31] <darobin> then we could have $()
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  416. # [14:32] <gsnedders> SimonSapin thinks REC is time to rename something!?
  417. # [14:32] <gsnedders> Really!?
  418. # [14:32] * Parts: benbarnett (~Adium@149.241.216.202)
  419. # [14:32] <gsnedders> Can he not hold off till it's RECIND!?
  420. # [14:33] <Krinkle> Hi
  421. # [14:33] <Krinkle> I'm trying to figure out whether browsers are supposed to dynamically re-resolve images/links and stuff when a <base> tag is introduced or document.baseURI otherwise modified.
  422. # [14:33] <Krinkle> http://codepen.io/anon/pen/fshFd
  423. # [14:33] <Krinkle> From reading the spec I think they're supposed to
  424. # [14:33] <Krinkle> but this codepen shows that they don't
  425. # [14:34] <jgraham> Krinkle: Here be dragons
  426. # [14:34] <Krinkle> After the first callback image 2 and 3 remain broken, only after I reresolve it explicitly and set the properties do they render
  427. # [14:34] <jgraham> I'm pretty sure you aren't supposed to reresolve
  428. # [14:34] <Krinkle> even a reflow or accessing .src or .outerHTML doesn't trigger it
  429. # [14:35] <Krinkle> of course I'm not going to reresolve them in production, that's to show the expected result (browsers are supposed to)
  430. # [14:35] <jgraham> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18459
  431. # [14:35] <jgraham> Krinkle: ^
  432. # [14:36] <Krinkle> I don't really care much about <base>, it's an old thing as far as I'm concerned, but I'm in this thing where we capture the DOM and log it for later. But the show-later is from a different domain, so I'm thinking of inserting a <base> tag on the client side right before we capture the DOM and save it.
  433. # [14:36] <Krinkle> would be nice if the preview while that is happening is actually correct and not broken
  434. # [14:36] <Krinkle> e.g. that inserting <base> live has the same affect as inserting it, serializing to html, saving it, and parsing that.
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  436. # [14:36] <jgraham> Krinkle: IIRC the spec doesn't say that the mere act of inserting or chaging <base> does anything with existing URLs
  437. # [14:37] <gsnedders> jgraham: It does.
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  439. # [14:37] <Krinkle> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/urls.html#dynamic-changes-to-base-urls
  440. # [14:38] <Krinkle> ^
  441. # [14:38] <jgraham> Oh, right
  442. # [14:38] <jgraham> So <a> is affected but <img> is not
  443. # [14:40] <jgraham> Anyway, as I was saying, after the base changes, not all things actually resolve against the new base
  444. # [14:40] <jgraham> In particular pushState
  445. # [14:46] <jgraham> Krinkle: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?saved=2108
  446. # [14:46] <jgraham> AFAICT Gecko and WebKit follow the spec in that simple case
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  448. # [14:52] <karlcow> http://homakov.blogspot.fr/2013/02/hacking-facebook-with-oauth2-and-chrome.html
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  454. # [14:58] <annevk> <img> is affected too actually
  455. # [15:03] <jgraham> In what sense?
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  457. # [15:03] <jgraham> src is a reflecting attribute so accessing img.src will change the value of src you get back
  458. # [15:03] <jgraham> But it doesn't actually cause any change to happen
  459. # [15:05] <annevk> sure, loading and changing the URL are different things, but in that respect the same happens to <a> and <img>
  460. # [15:06] <jgraham> Right, I guess the point of that spec section is just that UI should be updated
  461. # [15:06] <karlcow> what is happening when we set the browser to not download images, then load a page with a <base>, change dynamically the <base> and finally ask to see images.
  462. # [15:07] <jgraham> karlcow: YOu should get the image resolved against the base URL
  463. # [15:08] <jgraham> s/base/final base/
  464. # [15:08] <karlcow> the new base url?
  465. # [15:08] <jgraham> Yes
  466. # [15:08] <karlcow> :)
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  470. # [15:18] <Krinkle> And what if we're a regular user that always shows images, and then the base is dynamically changed, should the browser fetch/render the new images if the urls are different now?
  471. # [15:18] <Krinkle> Interestingly, the property accessor does immediately yield the updated value against the new base
  472. # [15:19] <Krinkle> so from that point in time onwards, the src property will return a url that does not match the rendered image
  473. # [15:19] <Krinkle> could be a completely different image, different dimensions, reflow etc. all that stuff
  474. # [15:20] <Krinkle> I wonder what'll happen when trying to capture the image data for base64 or canvas at that point
  475. # [15:20] <Krinkle> e.g. when trying to snapshot the image
  476. # [15:20] <Krinkle> the page*
  477. # [15:20] <jgraham> Krinkle: No, the browser shouldn't try to re-fetch the image after changing the base
  478. # [15:21] <jgraham> The spec is clear on this (and implementations seem to agree)
  479. # [15:21] <Krinkle> jgraham: Can you point me to that point in the spec?
  480. # [15:21] <Krinkle> "For example, the CSS :link/:visited pseudo-classes might have been affected."
  481. # [15:22] <Krinkle> So it does specifify that rendering should change to some degree, at least in the case of css styling towards visit status of links.
  482. # [15:22] <Krinkle> ah "otherwise"
  483. # [15:22] <Krinkle> there it is
  484. # [15:22] <Krinkle> "For instance, changing the base URL doesn't affect the image displayed by img elements"
  485. # [15:22] <jgraham> Yes
  486. # [15:23] <jgraham> Note that that is non-normative, but it correctly describes the lack of a normative requirement to do anything
  487. # [15:23] <Krinkle> that sounds like a case of "specify status quo browser behavior" not the other way around. What do you think?
  488. # [15:23] <jgraham> I think that way round has a great deal of merit :) I also think this is the sane behaviour in this case
  489. # [15:23] <Krinkle> Would it be a good idea to propose a change to the spec that would make it do that?
  490. # [15:24] <jgraham> I don't think so
  491. # [15:24] <Krinkle> k
  492. # [15:24] <jgraham> Refetching images when <base> changes seems like at least a minor compat risk
  493. # [15:25] <jgraham> Plus, I don't really know why you'd want to do that
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  509. # [16:02] * hsivonen almost faints. a table on the IANA site: https://www.iana.org/assignments/character-sets/character-sets.xml
  510. # [16:03] <hsivonen> also: IANA is not making it harder to get rid of XSLT
  511. # [16:03] <hsivonen> s/not/now/
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  513. # [16:03] <zewt> jgraham: though it looks like there might be some weirdness associated with changing the base url, setting img.src and changing base.href ... guess i'll file a bug
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  515. # [16:04] <annevk> hsivonen: well that page is pretty much obsolete, I reckon we could do with the raw view
  516. # [16:05] <hsivonen> annevk: yeah. pretty sad bocu-1 and scsu made it to the registry, though
  517. # [16:05] <hsivonen> such a bad idea to use either for interchange
  518. # [16:05] <annevk> Although perceived as such, I'm no longer sure that registry is intended to serve as a guide for what you should actually implement
  519. # [16:06] <annevk> Especially given how they go about managing it
  520. # [16:06] <hsivonen> annevk: it serves as a reminder of what to blacklist for XSS :-)
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  522. # [16:07] <annevk> hsivonen: why wouldn't we just emit a single U+FFFD btw and terminate?
  523. # [16:16] <hsivonen> annevk: that would work, too, conceptually, but I wasn't sure if it violated Gecko's assuptions about how decoders behave.
  524. # [16:16] <annevk> I see
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  533. # [16:42] <annevk> hsivonen: FWIW, I think I'll wait a couple of days to see what the response is to the various proposals before changing the specification
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  538. # [17:06] <marcosc> jgraham: you know how I was saying that treating JSON as a WebIDL dictionary might be um, interesting ... looks like Moz is basically doing that with their FxOS manifest format. They disregard the data type adherence in their JSON format, and just cast everything as if it's an WebIDL dictionary.
  539. # [17:06] * Quits: Masklinn (~textual@109.89.134.164)
  540. # [17:08] <marcosc> It's neat, because you get all the error handling and type conversion goodness of WebIDL.
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  542. # [17:09] <marcosc> of course, they are not explicitly using WebIDL.
  543. # [17:09] <marcosc> But the effect is the same
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  545. # [17:09] <jgraham> I see
  546. # [17:11] <marcosc> sorry, if I pretend someone cares, then it doesn't sound like I'm always talking to myself :)
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  549. # [17:14] <darobin> marcosc: are you sure they're not using WebIDL? Gecko has the infrastructure for IDL stuff
  550. # [17:14] <marcosc> darobin: I'm pretty sure, I just looked at the code for the processor. https://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/dom/apps/src/AppsUtils.jsm#180
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  560. # [17:37] <Ms2ger> Anyone feel like telling me what the 2^1024 thing is for in http://www.whatwg.org/html/#rules-for-parsing-floating-point-number-values ?
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  563. # [17:43] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-core-wg/2013Feb/0025.html hmm
  564. # [17:44] <annevk> Ms2ger: you're the second person to bring that up
  565. # [17:44] <annevk> Ms2ger: I think it's to establish infinity
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  569. # [17:48] <annevk> So question. Which version of FTP is implemented by browsers? http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc959
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  572. # [17:55] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg
  573. # [17:55] <dglazkov> !
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  576. # [17:57] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: The important thing is they're closer to +/-INF than anything else.
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  579. # [18:00] <annevk> hey dglazkov
  580. # [18:00] <annevk> dglazkov: I didn't find the inDocument and isSVGElement checks from http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/Source/WebCore/dom/EventRetargeter.cpp#L75 in the spec
  581. # [18:01] <annevk> dglazkov: and I think the spec should probably also have the bit about Mouse/Focus vs other Events to make it clear not all events have relatedTarget
  582. # [18:02] <annevk> dglazkov: tried to catch hayato on #webkit but I think he might not be online there
  583. # [18:03] <dglazkov> annevk: emailing him is probably best. He's in Tokyo, so timezone gap...
  584. # [18:03] <dglazkov> annevk: I have this phrase "Some events have a relatedTarget" in https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/shadow/index.html#retargeting-related-target. Is this enough?
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  586. # [18:04] <dglazkov> annevk: SVG is slightly weird in WebKit. I wouldn't worry about that particular check.
  587. # [18:05] <dglazkov> as for inDocument check, that's in DOM core, right?
  588. # [18:05] <annevk> Your terminology is kinda wrong. It's not called a property. mouseover is not an event but an event type and not all events with a mouseover type will therefore have a relatedTarget attribute
  589. # [18:05] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  590. # [18:05] <annevk> dglazkov: is it?
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  592. # [18:05] <dglazkov> annevk: I agree on terminology being wrong
  593. # [18:05] <annevk> dglazkov: I don't think the DOM cares where your node is
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  595. # [18:06] <dglazkov> annevk: well, yeah. If node is not in tree, it usually doesn't have an event path.
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  597. # [18:06] <annevk> dglazkov: I think it would be clearer if we scoped it to MouseEvent and FocusEvent or whatever those interfaces are called and also explicitly dealt with the case when the event does not inherit or implement those interfaces
  598. # [18:06] <dglazkov> at least, that's how web works.
  599. # [18:06] <annevk> dglazkov: uuuh
  600. # [18:06] <dglazkov> annevk: yep. That sounds good.
  601. # [18:06] <annevk> dglazkov: you can have a tree outside of a document...
  602. # [18:07] <annevk> dglazkov: e.g. var x= document.createElement("x") ; x.appendChild(document.createElement("z"))
  603. # [18:07] <annevk> dglazkov: afaik event dispatch should just work there
  604. # [18:07] <annevk> smaug____ can confirm
  605. # [18:07] <dglazkov> annevk: well... it won't in webkit :) That check has been there for a long time.
  606. # [18:08] <dglazkov> in other words, it's not related to shadow dom
  607. # [18:08] <annevk> dglazkov: so inDocument() means the node has a Document ancestor right?
  608. # [18:08] <dglazkov> annevk: yup
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  610. # [18:08] <annevk> dglazkov: okay, so if it doesn't the event is still dispatched in WebKit but won't go up or down any tree?
  611. # [18:09] <dglazkov> annevk: yep.
  612. # [18:09] <annevk> okay, you're right that's unrelated to what you're doing
  613. # [18:09] <annevk> Ms2ger: we should test that
  614. # [18:10] <smaug____> annevk: ?
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  616. # [18:10] <smaug____> event propagation has nothing to do with elements being in document
  617. # [18:10] <annevk> smaug____: right, so in WebKit it does...
  618. # [18:11] <smaug____> that is a bug in webkit
  619. # [18:11] <smaug____> and rather odd one
  620. # [18:11] <smaug____> let's not add that bug to specs
  621. # [18:11] <annevk> I wonder why there's no test that catches that
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  623. # [18:12] <Ms2ger> We've got tests? ;)
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  625. # [18:13] <smaug____> I wonder why webkit has such odd behavior
  626. # [18:13] <annevk> http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/Source/WebCore/dom/EventRetargeter.cpp#L91
  627. # [18:13] <annevk> Found it while reading the code today to understand Shadow DOM
  628. # [18:15] <smaug____> last time I checked Gecko's event re-retargeting (which is used for XBL for example) is quite similar. http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/events/src/nsEventDispatcher.cpp#265
  629. # [18:15] <dglazkov> let me see...
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  631. # [18:15] <smaug____> though XBL doesn't handle relatedTarget as consistently as shadow dom
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  634. # [18:19] <GPHemsley> annevk: Do you remember what we decided about the license for the wiki? It's MIT now, but I recall it was something else before that. (Is that the case?)
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  636. # [18:21] <annevk> GPHemsley: no, I wanted to transition from MIT to CC0
  637. # [18:21] <GPHemsley> annevk: Oh, and that never happened?
  638. # [18:21] <annevk> GPHemsley: well I wasn't sure how to do it so I kinda left that for you to do at some point if you could
  639. # [18:21] <GPHemsley> oh
  640. # [18:21] <GPHemsley> oops
  641. # [18:21] <annevk> GPHemsley: actually remembered that earlier today and wanted to bug you about it
  642. # [18:22] <GPHemsley> Well, I don't know if there's any way built in to MediaWiki that automatically licenses old content under one license and new content under another.
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  644. # [18:23] <GPHemsley> Would there be legal ramifications if we just did it all in one fell swoop?
  645. # [18:24] <annevk> We'd have to add some kind of disclaimer on existing pages I suppose and only remove that once we clarified with all contributors of that page they're okay with CC0
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  647. # [18:25] <annevk> tantek: you around? How did you do this for microformats?
  648. # [18:27] <GPHemsley> Oh, well, http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/WHATWG_Wiki:Copyrights would actually allow us to explicitly state whatever we wanted
  649. # [18:27] <GPHemsley> including, "before date X, things were under another license"
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  651. # [18:28] <dglazkov> annevk, smaug____: http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/19897
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  657. # [18:29] <annevk> dglazkov: that looks wrong
  658. # [18:30] <dglazkov> annevk: we build our castles on mistakes of our past. Where were you 6 years ago with your awesome DOM spec!? :)
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  660. # [18:30] <annevk> prolly trying to understand the DOM specs of that age
  661. # [18:31] <GPHemsley> annevk: You want me to change the license effective today?
  662. # [18:31] <dglazkov> time machine pls
  663. # [18:31] <annevk> GPHemsley: please
  664. # [18:31] <GPHemsley> annevk: You're the only one who's edited today, so that shouldn't be a problem.
  665. # [18:32] <dglazkov> coming to a theater near you... Anne van Kesteren is THE LOOPER
  666. # [18:33] * smaug____ kicks Antti hard
  667. # [18:33] <annevk> smaug____: ?
  668. # [18:33] <dglazkov> hey, hey, no violence.
  669. # [18:33] <annevk> oh it was his patch?
  670. # [18:33] <smaug____> yup
  671. # [18:34] <smaug____> dglazkov: just gentle kick
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  673. # [18:34] <annevk> weird that they didn't get compat issues
  674. # [18:34] <annevk> i guess nobody uses events
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  676. # [18:34] <annevk> also, I don't understand how this fix works
  677. # [18:35] <smaug____> I think https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12918#c2 is about Firefox < 3.0
  678. # [18:35] <annevk> if the node is disconnected from the tree when you dispatch the event, how could it ever reach the parents?
  679. # [18:35] <annevk> oh Firefox had a bug too?
  680. # [18:35] <smaug____> event dispatching was rewritten 2006, so it ended up to FF3 which was released IIRC spring 2007
  681. # [18:36] <smaug____> Gecko < 1.9 had odd event dispatching
  682. # [18:36] <annevk> nice digging dglazkov
  683. # [18:36] <smaug____> (my 3rd big contribution to Gecko was to rewrite the whole DOM event dispatching :) )
  684. # [18:37] <dglazkov> annevk: oh it's nothing, just a hundred clicks on trac.webkit.org
  685. # [18:37] <Ms2ger> dglazkov, anything takes a hundred clicks there
  686. # [18:37] <smaug____> oh, 3.0 was released 2008
  687. # [18:40] <annevk> dglazkov: will you file a bug?
  688. # [18:42] <dglazkov> annevk: WebKit bug? I don't think there's much hope for it ever being fixed. We usually don't change a behavior that's been around for over 6 years.
  689. # [18:42] <annevk> o_O
  690. # [18:42] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
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  692. # [18:43] <hober> O_o
  693. # [18:43] <dglazkov> <_<
  694. # [18:44] * dglazkov is filing bug
  695. # [18:44] <smaug____> dglazkov: o_O
  696. # [18:44] <smaug____> not changing behavior
  697. # [18:45] <smaug____> that is odd
  698. # [18:45] <dglazkov> don't break the web, right?
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  703. # [18:46] <annevk> and don't violate the specs
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  705. # [18:46] <MikeSmith> bend the Web
  706. # [18:46] * tantek scrolls up
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  709. # [18:47] * tantek agrees with transitioning the wiki license to CC0.
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  711. # [18:47] * stevefaulkner_ is now known as stevefaulkner
  712. # [18:48] <tantek> GPHemsley: you can flip the license for all edits as of today and later.
  713. # [18:48] <GPHemsley> tantek: In the process. :)
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  715. # [18:49] <tantek> annevk, with microformats we took the approach of flipping the license, and *also* have a template for user pages where individual users could place all their contributions (for all time) into public domain / CC0.
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  717. # [18:49] <tantek> then we asked contributors to do so, and as they did, more and more pages full entered the public domain
  718. # [18:50] <annevk> I guess we can see how far that gets us
  719. # [18:50] <annevk> should work pretty well for the pages I author mostly by myself :)
  720. # [18:50] <tantek> see here for details on how we addressed the transitions: http://microformats.org/wiki/Microformats_Wiki:Copyrights
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  722. # [18:50] <tantek> (that page itself is of course CC-PD/0 so feel free to copy from it as you feel is useful for the WHATWG wiki :) )
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  724. # [18:51] <tantek> note: this is also why I put the public domain release template on the WHATWG wiki and used it on my user page ages ago: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/User:Tantek
  725. # [18:51] <tantek> note the phrasing: "or any later version published by Creative Commons; with either a waiver of rights, or an assertion that no rights attach to a particular work."
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  727. # [18:52] <GPHemsley> annevk, tantek: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/WHATWG_Wiki:Copyrights
  728. # [18:52] <tantek> that made the declaration CC0 compatible even before CC0 was done being launched (I had that phrasing checked by Lessig at the time)
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  731. # [18:52] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  732. # [18:53] <tantek> GPHemsley - that's a good start.
  733. # [18:53] <dglazkov> annevk: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=110353
  734. # [18:53] <GPHemsley> tantek: Yeah, I didn't read what you'd written until after.
  735. # [18:53] <tantek> I'd add an encouragement for contributors to add a public domain / CC0 template to their user page to place more of the wiki into CC0.
  736. # [18:54] <tantek> thanks GPHemsley - appreciate this.
  737. # [18:55] <annevk> GPHemsley: sweet, also need to update the footer
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  739. # [18:55] <GPHemsley> annevk: One step at a time. ;)
  740. # [18:55] <annevk> thanks dglazkov!
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  752. # [19:08] <GPHemsley> annevk, tantek: You can now go ahead and add {{CC0 user}} to your user page.
  753. # [19:08] <tantek> CPHemsely - awesome
  754. # [19:10] <tantek> done.
  755. # [19:10] * nimbu1 is now known as divya
  756. # [19:10] <tantek> not as pretty as http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Template:Cc-public-domain-release but it will do ;)
  757. # [19:11] * GPHemsley shrugs
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  765. # [19:27] <MikeSmith> ok ok I'm pretty sure kripken is the same that The Story of Mel, a Real Programmer is about
  766. # [19:28] <MikeSmith> same guy
  767. # [19:28] <MikeSmith> or at least a reincarnation
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  775. # [19:43] <GPHemsley> Is anyone else suddenly having trouble accessing wiki.whatwg.org ?
  776. # [19:45] <GPHemsley> ah, there we go
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  785. # [19:49] <GPHemsley> annevk, tantek, et al.: If you want to release a pre-existing page under CC0 (provided you have consent from all editors involved), you can use {{CC0 page}}.
  786. # [19:50] <tantek> nice
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  795. # [19:58] <GPHemsley> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/WHATWG_Wiki:Copyrights has been updated to be more explicit and helpful.
  796. # [19:59] <GPHemsley> tantek: ^
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  798. # [20:00] <tantek> GPHemsley - see my previous attempt at PD here: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Category:Public_domain_license
  799. # [20:00] <tantek> (encouraging people)
  800. # [20:01] <tantek> we can probably get hober to also add {{cc0 user}}
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  804. # [20:03] <GPHemsley> tantek: I see your point about encouraging users, but I don't think the category page is the place to do it. In fact, I would prefer to deprecate the framework surrounding {{cc-public-domain-release}} in favor of the new templates, if you don't mind. (We don't want to create more confusion than there already is.)
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  806. # [20:03] <GPHemsley> tantek: I'll send a message to the mailing list later about the changes.
  807. # [20:04] <tantek> Yes that makes sense. Perhaps deprecate it once the one user (hober) of PD but not CC0 has updated their user page?
  808. # [20:04] <tantek> I figured every change to encourage people was worth doing
  809. # [20:04] <tantek> just to try to get more people to do it
  810. # [20:05] <tantek> like if/when people find the category page from a person's user page, and then wonder how they can get themselves added to that category page.
  811. # [20:05] <GPHemsley> tantek: Well, if the chatter here and the announcement on the mailing list doesn't do it, then probably nothing will. ;)
  812. # [20:05] <tantek> well it's the initial burst vs. long term
  813. # [20:05] <GPHemsley> sure
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  815. # [20:05] <GPHemsley> but we can deal with that later
  816. # [20:05] * GPHemsley wanders off to eat.
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  820. # [20:12] <annevk> hober: please fix your wiki page per above kthxbai :)
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  822. # [20:15] <divya> so vague annevk
  823. # [20:16] <jamesr> \angry_simcity_advisor{You can't public GCPM in this state! You will regret this!}
  824. # [20:19] <Ms2ger> Can't, eh
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  826. # [20:22] <dglazkov> annevk: you still there?
  827. # [20:22] <dglazkov> annevk: what is a good error to throw when author attempts to register a custom element that is already registered?
  828. # [20:23] <dglazkov> 1) NotSupportedError, as in you can register more than one element with the same name
  829. # [20:23] <dglazkov> can->can't
  830. # [20:24] <dglazkov> 2) InvalidAccessError, as in document.register does not support more than one registration with the same name
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  832. # [20:24] <annevk> I guess 1)
  833. # [20:24] <dglazkov> 3) DglazkovError, as in blame dglazkov for this mess
  834. # [20:24] <annevk> or something new
  835. # [20:24] <annevk> 3) works
  836. # [20:24] <dglazkov> :)
  837. # [20:24] <annevk> that table is expandable
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  839. # [20:25] <dglazkov> I think I'll go with 1) for now, and we can tweak later
  840. # [20:25] <annevk> sounds good
  841. # [20:25] <annevk> though boring
  842. # [20:27] <dglazkov> :P
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  846. # [20:38] <GPHemsley> FYI: I just turned on subpages for the main namespace, so that using a slash in a page name will create a breadcrumbs navigation hierarchy
  847. # [20:39] <GPHemsley> (on the wiki)
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  849. # [20:46] <GPHemsley> annevk: Do you suppose it would be a good idea to tag pre-existing pages with {{CC0 page}} if all of their editors have used {{CC0 user}}?
  850. # [20:47] <GPHemsley> i.e. for clarity's sake
  851. # [20:47] <annevk> GPHemsley: yeah think so
  852. # [20:47] <annevk> GPHemsley: avoids having to check
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  855. # [20:48] <GPHemsley> annevk: OK, I did [[Fetch]].
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  860. # [20:58] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Wanna get in on the CC0 party?
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  864. # [21:03] <Hixie> i'm an MIT guy
  865. # [21:03] <Ms2ger> I thought you were more of a Bath one
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  867. # [21:04] <Hixie> to my knowledge, my alma mater never invented their own license, luckily
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  871. # [21:07] <jgraham> Hixie: It looks like they will come up with a custom one if you pay them http://www.bath.ac.uk/bathventures/forbusiness/ip-licensing.html
  872. # [21:07] <Hixie> fantastic
  873. # [21:08] <GPHemsley> Hixie: In that case, is it alright if I tag this as CC0? http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTML_derivatives
  874. # [21:09] <Hixie> sure
  875. # [21:10] <Hixie> you guys spent way too much time worrying about licenses :-P
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  877. # [21:13] * GPHemsley shrugs
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  880. # [21:15] <GPHemsley> annevk: I've updated the fine print in the footer, but I need to find some icon that suggests a hybrid license.
  881. # [21:17] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@v-1045.fw1.sfo1.mozilla.net)
  882. # [21:18] <annevk> Hixie: about as much time as you worry about Twitter ;-P
  883. # [21:18] <GPHemsley> Hixie: So, wait, does that mean you object to the CC0 switch?
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  886. # [21:20] * jgraham thinks fiddling with the licenses seems rather pointless
  887. # [21:20] <annevk> jgraham: just makes it clearer if some text from the wiki ends up in a spec
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  893. # [21:30] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Speak now or forever hold your peace. (I'm about to message the list.)
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  897. # [21:38] <annevk> he's fine with it
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  901. # [21:41] <nimbu> srsly wtf is this compromise? https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18669
  902. # [21:41] <nimbu> dglazkov: what is this HYPHEN BZNSS?!
  903. # [21:42] <GPHemsley> annevk: Alright, message sent. Wrath is on you now. ;)
  904. # [21:43] * annevk braces for impact
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  907. # [21:45] <annevk> nimbu: your English is totes weird
  908. # [21:47] <TabAtkins> nimbu: Um, the hell are you going on about? Previously we needed an x- prefix on element names. Now we've reduced it to just a - in the name somewhere.
  909. # [21:47] <nimbu> ughhh complicated
  910. # [21:47] <TabAtkins> ?????
  911. # [21:47] <nimbu> x- was at least clear
  912. # [21:47] <nimbu> it was custom
  913. # [21:47] <nimbu> now who knows
  914. # [21:47] <Ms2ger> is="" is much nicer
  915. # [21:47] <TabAtkins> x- was super unpopular.
  916. # [21:47] <nimbu> only with the vocal trolls TabAtkins
  917. # [21:48] <TabAtkins> nimbu: No, with plenty of people.
  918. # [21:48] <nimbu> ughhhhhhhhh
  919. # [21:48] <Ms2ger> nimbu, calling me a vocal troll, eh? ;)
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  921. # [21:48] <nimbu> more fine print!!!!
  922. # [21:48] <nimbu> Ms2ger: only by inference
  923. # [21:49] <nimbu> so good for open web standards!!
  924. # [21:49] * nimbu is very very disappoint
  925. # [21:49] <TabAtkins> nimbu: You're weird. A - is really easy, and will be used commonly anyway - libraries should preface their element names with a prefix to avoid conflicts.
  926. # [21:49] <TabAtkins> Basically, this is just letting you use your own prefix, rather than forcing it to be an x- prefix.
  927. # [21:50] <Ms2ger> "Content Feature Schema for Internet Fax"
  928. # [21:50] <TabAtkins> If you feel like using x-, go crazy - it's totally valid.
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  930. # [21:51] <esprehn_> In practice everyone was going to prefix anyway, so we were going to end up with x-jq-button, x-ext-menulist, x-ng-tabpane so the x- was just noise
  931. # [21:52] <nimbu> own prefix for greater conflicts.
  932. # [21:52] <nimbu> so we cannot repurpose namespaces for this
  933. # [21:52] <astearns> nimbu-feedback-button
  934. # [21:52] <nimbu> we just gotta reinvent the wheel
  935. # [21:52] <nimbu> :)
  936. # [21:52] <nimbu> it would just be great screaming WTF asdf`
  937. # [21:52] <nimbu> err
  938. # [21:52] <nimbu> astearns:
  939. # [21:52] <esprehn_> astearns: I'm sure adobe will jump on mx ;)
  940. # [21:53] <esprehn_> <mx-vbox>
  941. # [21:53] <nimbu> <wtf-h1>
  942. # [21:53] <nimbu> <-h2>
  943. # [21:53] <astearns> esprehn_: I think we'd switched to spark-
  944. # [21:54] <nimbu> bah some day this pile of wood called a house is gonna fall crashing down
  945. # [21:54] <TabAtkins> nimbu: If you actually suggest namespaces, you're trolling.
  946. # [21:54] <nimbu> it was invented to solve this problem no?
  947. # [21:54] <nimbu> maybe in a different context
  948. # [21:54] <esprehn_> nimbu: dash isn't valid at the start
  949. # [21:54] <Ms2ger> Mm, namespaces
  950. # [21:54] <TabAtkins> That was the intention, yes. It failed really badly for well-known reasons.
  951. # [21:54] <nimbu> and why are we assuming this custom element thing wont
  952. # [21:55] <TabAtkins> It was a terrible implementation of a solution.
  953. # [21:55] <Ms2ger> nimbu, you're making an assumption there...
  954. # [21:55] <nimbu> o k thanks esprehn_
  955. # [21:55] <nimbu> Ms2ger: valid point.
  956. # [21:55] <TabAtkins> nimbu: Because we know why namespaces failed, we know that self-selected short prefixes *don't* fail (they're very successful in lots of things on the web, including large libraries), so it seems we have history on our side?
  957. # [21:55] <nimbu> but i am just wondering why we keep reinventing wheel assuming its just gonna get better™
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  959. # [21:56] <nimbu> i merely liked that : syntax
  960. # [21:56] <TabAtkins> We're actually copying the wheel. It's just a better wheel, but everyone keeps suggesting the shitty broken wheel.
  961. # [21:56] <nimbu> not that uri at the beginning and other nonsense
  962. # [21:56] <TabAtkins> nimbu: Then you're not suggesting namespaces, so you shouldn't say that. ^_^
  963. # [21:56] <Ms2ger> Heh, http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-preslev/Overview.src.html
  964. # [21:56] <nimbu> ok : syntax then
  965. # [21:56] <nimbu> hyphen is just way out there.
  966. # [21:57] <nimbu> so easy to make mistakes with.
  967. # [21:57] <TabAtkins> Colon doesn't work for other reasons - it parses differently in HTML and XML, and in XML it's already used by Namespaces (and invalid in tag names).
  968. # [21:57] <TabAtkins> I have no clue what you're going on about with hyphens being hard.
  969. # [21:57] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: What's the "heh" about?
  970. # [21:57] <nimbu> <h1class=hi-there>
  971. # [21:57] <Ms2ger> I just saw it for the first time in years
  972. # [21:58] <TabAtkins> nimbu: ...?
  973. # [21:58] <nimbu> wont be an error coz hyphens just mean custom elements?
  974. # [21:58] <TabAtkins> nimbu: That's an element with name "h1class", and an attribute called "hi-there".
  975. # [21:58] <nimbu> o k
  976. # [21:59] <nimbu> and = is assumed as?
  977. # [21:59] <TabAtkins> A syntax error, and ignored (if i recall the parser correctly).
  978. # [21:59] <Ms2ger> That's actually an element with local name "h1class=hi-there"
  979. # [21:59] <TabAtkins> I didn't think = was a valid character in names.
  980. # [22:00] <Ms2ger> Names?
  981. # [22:00] <Ms2ger> This is HTML
  982. # [22:00] <nimbu> http://html5.validator.nu/
  983. # [22:00] <TabAtkins> ...and?
  984. # [22:00] <nimbu> tells me it is an element name
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  986. # [22:01] <nimbu> SIGHHH
  987. # [22:01] <nimbu> whatever
  988. # [22:02] <TabAtkins> Indeed.
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  990. # [22:04] <esprehn_> equals is valid, so is a bunch of unicode
  991. # [22:05] <esprehn_> <jqπwidget>
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  993. # [22:05] <nimbu> that wont be valid custom elm
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  1007. # [22:25] <JonathanNeal> If any of you have an interest in haml, jade, or sass, I'd dig feedback on a markup I'm experimenting with, something like jade and zen meet sass https://gist.github.com/jonathantneal/4998574
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  1034. # [23:12] <JonathanNeal> Hixie: I loved your 2003 pitch for ::outside, whatever happened?
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The end :)