/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-02-25 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Mon Feb 25 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:40] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181151161.pp.htv.fi) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  4. # [00:40] * Joins: Samuel_Roldan (~Samuel_Ro@12.207.22.82)
  5. # [00:51] * Joins: lilmonkey (~colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven)
  6. # [00:54] * Quits: lilmonkey` (~colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  7. # [00:54] * Quits: tomasf (~tom@c-44dbe555.024-204-6c6b7012.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: tomasf)
  8. # [00:55] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@rtr.mozilla.or.jp)
  9. # [00:58] * Joins: bde (~bde@sol10cluster.cs.tamu.edu)
  10. # [00:58] * Quits: bde (~bde@sol10cluster.cs.tamu.edu) (Client Quit)
  11. # [01:05] * Quits: JibberJim (~opera@host-78-146-59-71.as13285.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  12. # [01:06] * Quits: Samuel_Roldan (~Samuel_Ro@12.207.22.82) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  13. # [01:06] * Joins: Samuel_Roldan_ (~Samuel_Ro@12.207.22.82)
  14. # [01:13] * Quits: Samuel_Roldan_ (~Samuel_Ro@12.207.22.82) (Read error: No route to host)
  15. # [01:14] * Joins: Samuel_Roldan (~Samuel_Ro@12.207.22.82)
  16. # [01:14] * Quits: Samuel_Roldan (~Samuel_Ro@12.207.22.82) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  17. # [01:14] * Joins: Samuel_Roldan (~Samuel_Ro@12.207.22.82)
  18. # [01:16] * Quits: krijnhuman (~krijnhoet@ip4da4a84d.direct-adsl.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  19. # Session Close: Mon Feb 25 01:16:17 2013
  20. #
  21. # Session Start: Mon Feb 25 01:16:17 2013
  22. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  23. # [01:17] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  24. # [01:17] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  25. # [01:17] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  26. # [01:17] * Set by smaug____!~chatzilla@GGZYYCCCXVIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi on Wed Mar 21 17:14:24
  27. # [01:19] * Quits: SimonSapin (~simon@ip-22.net-89-2-144.rev.numericable.fr) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  28. # [01:21] * Quits: scottjehl______ (uid3055@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ebmnbojximanoyzt) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  29. # [01:22] * Joins: scottjehl______ (uid3055@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-otremgxdlhvaiyak)
  30. # [01:25] * Quits: Areks (~Areks@rs.gridnine.com) (Read error: Connection timed out)
  31. # [01:26] * Joins: Areks (~Areks@rs.gridnine.com)
  32. # [01:28] * Quits: Samuel_Roldan (~Samuel_Ro@12.207.22.82) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  33. # [01:28] * Joins: Samuel_Roldan (~Samuel_Ro@12.207.22.82)
  34. # [01:30] * Quits: Samuel_Roldan (~Samuel_Ro@12.207.22.82) (Client Quit)
  35. # [01:30] * Joins: divya (~Adium@70-36-142-24.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  36. # [01:33] * Joins: esprehn_ (~esprehn@50-196-183-94-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  37. # [01:39] * Joins: krawchyk (~krawchyk@c-76-21-215-221.hsd1.dc.comcast.net)
  38. # [01:39] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-86.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  39. # [01:43] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@24.130.60.35)
  40. # [01:52] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@193-64-23-49-nat.elisa-mobile.fi)
  41. # [01:55] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  42. # [02:02] * Quits: JesperHansen (~JesperHan@0x5b90c2f0.dhcp.fiberflex.dk) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  43. # [02:04] * Quits: divya (~Adium@70-36-142-24.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  44. # [02:14] * Joins: [[zzz]] (~q@node-1a8n.pool-101-109.dynamic.totbb.net)
  45. # [02:16] * Joins: xjiujiu (~quassel@218.77.14.202)
  46. # [02:17] * Quits: [[zz]] (~q@node-19qh.pool-101-109.dynamic.totbb.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  47. # [02:21] * Joins: divya (~Adium@70-36-142-24.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  48. # [02:29] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@193-64-23-49-nat.elisa-mobile.fi) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  49. # [02:31] * Joins: cyclicflux (~cyclicflu@96.244.70.179)
  50. # [02:31] * Quits: cyclicflux (~cyclicflu@96.244.70.179) (Client Quit)
  51. # [02:38] * Quits: SteveF (~chatzilla@63.133.197.135) (Remote host closed the connection)
  52. # [02:48] * Quits: esprehn_ (~esprehn@50-196-183-94-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: esprehn_)
  53. # [02:50] * Joins: SteveF (~chatzilla@63.133.197.135)
  54. # [02:55] * Joins: divya1 (~Adium@70-36-142-24.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  55. # [03:00] * Quits: divya (~Adium@70-36-142-24.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  56. # [03:00] * Quits: divya1 (~Adium@70-36-142-24.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  57. # [03:02] * Quits: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199) (Remote host closed the connection)
  58. # [03:06] * Quits: seventh (seventh@64.9.146.92) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  59. # [03:07] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-86.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: tantek)
  60. # [03:08] * Quits: Areks (~Areks@rs.gridnine.com) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  61. # [03:23] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
  62. # [03:25] * Quits: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199) (Remote host closed the connection)
  63. # [03:27] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@24.130.60.35) (Quit: weinig)
  64. # [03:34] * Quits: Badreddin (~Nur@189.193.27.199) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  65. # [03:35] * Quits: fkm (~fkm@unaffiliated/fkm) (Quit: Leaving)
  66. # [03:45] * Joins: richt (~richt@1.223.218.28)
  67. # [03:51] * Quits: ukai (ukai@nat/google/x-gcyyllukscgwqlop) (Remote host closed the connection)
  68. # [04:12] * Joins: Badreddin (~Nur@189.193.98.57)
  69. # [04:15] * Quits: wycats__ (uid79@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qrwdftzmaqvroaoq) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  70. # [04:16] * Joins: wycats__ (uid79@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lyttomdrqroutsrn)
  71. # [04:24] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@70-89-66-218-ca.sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  72. # [04:25] * Quits: Raymondo (uid10176@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-itxjnncybkvdkijj) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  73. # [04:25] * Quits: toddmparker___ (uid3054@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gugognclapjxrcka) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  74. # [04:25] * Quits: matjas (uid2247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nbmmezncvbiphofw) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  75. # [04:26] * Quits: benschwarz (uid2121@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dmtirffzhtsylmue) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  76. # [04:26] * Quits: hdv (uid2376@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tdqrzpwphofbckof) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  77. # [04:26] * Quits: boblet (uid1921@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pprhtylwxtbiphrk) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  78. # [04:26] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@c-98-237-137-173.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  79. # [04:30] * Joins: Raymondo (uid10176@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mnzvbsathymjvweo)
  80. # [04:44] * Quits: krawchyk (~krawchyk@c-76-21-215-221.hsd1.dc.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  81. # [04:47] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@cpe-70-112-101-224.austin.res.rr.com)
  82. # [04:52] * [[zzz]] is now known as [[zz]]
  83. # [05:00] * Joins: jdaggett_ (~jdaggett@rtr.mozilla.or.jp)
  84. # [05:04] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@rtr.mozilla.or.jp) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  85. # [05:04] * jdaggett_ is now known as jdaggett
  86. # [05:05] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@rtr.mozilla.or.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
  87. # [05:05] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@wave.mozilla.or.jp)
  88. # [05:07] * Joins: jdaggett_ (~jdaggett@rtr.mozilla.or.jp)
  89. # [05:07] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@wave.mozilla.or.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  90. # [05:07] * Quits: jdaggett_ (~jdaggett@rtr.mozilla.or.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  91. # [05:07] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@wave.mozilla.or.jp)
  92. # [05:07] * Joins: jdaggett_ (~jdaggett@rtr.mozilla.or.jp)
  93. # [05:12] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@wave.mozilla.or.jp) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  94. # [05:12] * jdaggett_ is now known as jdaggett
  95. # [05:34] * Joins: hdv (uid2376@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jotvybyasixwcaiu)
  96. # [05:41] * Joins: jamesr_ (~jamesr@173-164-251-190-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  97. # [05:49] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@rtr.mozilla.or.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
  98. # [05:50] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@rtr.mozilla.or.jp)
  99. # [05:58] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@c-67-180-8-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  100. # [06:04] * Joins: toddmparker___ (uid3054@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pgwerhcjdomzxtip)
  101. # [06:07] * Quits: richt (~richt@1.223.218.28) (Remote host closed the connection)
  102. # [06:07] * Joins: richt (~richt@1.223.218.28)
  103. # [06:12] * Quits: richt (~richt@1.223.218.28) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  104. # [06:14] * Joins: OnlyMax (~OnlyMax@187-126-25-153.user.veloxzone.com.br)
  105. # [06:22] * Joins: matjas (uid2247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kwloybmykeirzwof)
  106. # [06:22] * Joins: boblet (uid1921@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-arjxrjvkonchjgfv)
  107. # [06:25] * Joins: benschwarz (uid2121@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ehepmzrhshppbqtn)
  108. # [06:25] * Joins: ukai (ukai@nat/google/x-fuppkrkzmteyckwp)
  109. # [06:29] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@c-67-180-8-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: sicking)
  110. # [06:33] * Quits: jamesr_ (~jamesr@173-164-251-190-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: jamesr_)
  111. # [06:35] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@cpe-70-112-101-224.austin.res.rr.com) (Quit: Leaving...)
  112. # [06:37] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
  113. # [06:37] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@70-89-66-218-ca.sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: rniwa)
  114. # [06:38] * Joins: jamesr_ (~jamesr@173-164-251-190-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  115. # [06:44] * Joins: divya (~Adium@70-36-142-24.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  116. # [06:54] * Quits: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199) (Remote host closed the connection)
  117. # [06:58] * Quits: nonge (~nonge@p5B326938.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: Verlassend)
  118. # [06:59] * Quits: Badreddin (~Nur@189.193.98.57) (Remote host closed the connection)
  119. # [07:02] * Joins: nonge (~nonge@p5B326938.dip.t-dialin.net)
  120. # [07:06] * Quits: jamesr_ (~jamesr@173-164-251-190-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: jamesr_)
  121. # [07:07] * Joins: jryans (~jryans@cpe-70-113-92-118.austin.res.rr.com)
  122. # [07:12] * Quits: ukai (ukai@nat/google/x-fuppkrkzmteyckwp) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  123. # [07:12] * Quits: SteveF (~chatzilla@63.133.197.135) (Remote host closed the connection)
  124. # [07:13] * Joins: ukai (ukai@nat/google/x-cfalqnvtmrhkjwap)
  125. # [07:22] * Quits: ukai (ukai@nat/google/x-cfalqnvtmrhkjwap) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  126. # [07:22] * Joins: ukai (ukai@nat/google/x-ynbnzdpnfsdmddxp)
  127. # [07:23] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@50-0-133-210.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  128. # [07:26] * Quits: ukai (ukai@nat/google/x-ynbnzdpnfsdmddxp) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  129. # [07:27] * Joins: ukai (ukai@nat/google/x-ihpjfatyqqrkoeqg)
  130. # [07:37] * Joins: JesperHansen (~JesperHan@0x5b90c2f0.dhcp.fiberflex.dk)
  131. # [07:38] * Quits: ukai (ukai@nat/google/x-ihpjfatyqqrkoeqg) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  132. # [07:38] * Joins: ukai (ukai@nat/google/x-zoziwetmvwrqtefu)
  133. # [07:39] * Joins: JibberJim (~opera@host-78-146-48-22.as13285.net)
  134. # [07:43] * Quits: ukai (ukai@nat/google/x-zoziwetmvwrqtefu) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  135. # [07:44] * Quits: Smylers (~smylers@host86-178-109-32.range86-178.btcentralplus.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  136. # [07:44] * Joins: Samuel_Roldan (~Samuel_Ro@12.207.22.82)
  137. # [07:44] * Joins: SimonSapin (~simon@ip-22.net-89-2-144.rev.numericable.fr)
  138. # [07:45] * Joins: Smylers (~smylers@host86-178-109-32.range86-178.btcentralplus.com)
  139. # [08:09] * Joins: ukai (ukai@nat/google/x-ghbvwvjapwcdsbse)
  140. # [08:11] * Joins: Areks (~Areks@rs.gridnine.com)
  141. # [08:12] * Quits: Smylers (~smylers@host86-178-109-32.range86-178.btcentralplus.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
  142. # [08:12] * Quits: Areks (~Areks@rs.gridnine.com) (Client Quit)
  143. # [08:19] * Joins: ronald_mansveld (~ronaldman@5ED0EFE5.cm-7-1d.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  144. # [08:22] * Quits: ronaldmansveld (~ronaldman@5ED0EFE5.cm-7-1d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  145. # [08:30] * Quits: divya (~Adium@70-36-142-24.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  146. # [08:33] * Joins: niloy (~niloy@115.112.64.6)
  147. # [08:38] * Joins: svl (~me@202.68.83.170)
  148. # [08:44] * Joins: isherman-book (~Adium@173-167-102-230-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  149. # [08:59] * ronald_mansveld is now known as ronaldmansveld
  150. # [09:00] * Quits: ronaldmansveld (~ronaldman@5ED0EFE5.cm-7-1d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Quit: Ik ga weg)
  151. # [09:02] * Joins: stevefaulkner (~stevefaul@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
  152. # [09:02] * Quits: jryans (~jryans@cpe-70-113-92-118.austin.res.rr.com) (Quit: Be back later)
  153. # [09:03] * Quits: stevefaulkner (~stevefaul@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Client Quit)
  154. # [09:05] * Joins: stevefaulkner (~stevefaul@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
  155. # [09:05] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@204.198-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be)
  156. # [09:05] * Joins: fauntle (~fauntle@165.225.134.101)
  157. # [09:06] * Joins: mitemitreski (~mitemitre@212.120.17.179)
  158. # [09:07] * Quits: SimonSapin (~simon@ip-22.net-89-2-144.rev.numericable.fr) (Quit: Leaving.)
  159. # [09:09] * Quits: stevefaulkner (~stevefaul@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Client Quit)
  160. # [09:12] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@rtr.mozilla.or.jp) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  161. # [09:14] * Quits: birtles (~chatzilla@rtr.mozilla.or.jp) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204])
  162. # [09:19] * Joins: pyrsmk (~pyrsmk@185.117.140.88.rev.sfr.net)
  163. # [09:20] * Quits: pyrsmk (~pyrsmk@185.117.140.88.rev.sfr.net) (Client Quit)
  164. # [09:21] * Joins: shanestephens_ (shanesteph@nat/google/x-lijhmsoojnqgqgji)
  165. # [09:24] * Quits: shanestephens (~shanestep@2401:fa00::d8d:82a1:700e:6b62) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  166. # [09:24] * shanestephens_ is now known as shanestephens
  167. # [09:27] * Joins: SimonSapin (~simon@vev69-1-82-232-219-95.fbx.proxad.net)
  168. # [09:29] * Joins: stevefaulkner (~stevefaul@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
  169. # [09:32] * Quits: stevefaulkner (~stevefaul@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Client Quit)
  170. # [09:32] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@193-64-23-49-nat.elisa-mobile.fi)
  171. # [09:33] * Joins: stevefaulkner (~stevefaul@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
  172. # [09:35] * Quits: JesperHansen (~JesperHan@0x5b90c2f0.dhcp.fiberflex.dk) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  173. # [09:41] * Quits: fauntle (~fauntle@165.225.134.101) (Remote host closed the connection)
  174. # [09:44] * Joins: pyrsmk (~pyrsmk@185.117.140.88.rev.sfr.net)
  175. # [09:53] * Quits: svl (~me@202.68.83.170) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  176. # [09:53] * Quits: JibberJim (~opera@host-78-146-48-22.as13285.net) (Quit: JibberJim)
  177. # [09:54] * Joins: Smylers (~smylers@94.116.137.215)
  178. # [09:55] * abstractj|away is now known as abstractj
  179. # [09:55] * Joins: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra)
  180. # [09:55] * Quits: pyrsmk (~pyrsmk@185.117.140.88.rev.sfr.net) (Quit: tzing)
  181. # [09:59] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@207.218.72.65)
  182. # [10:02] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@193-64-23-49-nat.elisa-mobile.fi) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  183. # [10:02] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-115-221.dsl.telepac.pt)
  184. # [10:04] * Quits: Smylers (~smylers@94.116.137.215) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  185. # [10:04] * Joins: nonge_ (~nonge@p5082A5B7.dip.t-dialin.net)
  186. # [10:05] * Quits: nonge (~nonge@p5B326938.dip.t-dialin.net) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  187. # [10:06] * Quits: isherman-book (~Adium@173-167-102-230-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  188. # [10:15] * Joins: Smylers (~smylers@host81-143-60-194.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  189. # [10:19] * Joins: henrikkok (~henrikkok@81.27.221.193)
  190. # [10:27] * Joins: tomasf (~tomasf@77.72.97.4.c.fiberdirekt.net)
  191. # [10:36] * Joins: darobin (~darobin@78.109.80.74)
  192. # [10:49] * Joins: vcarbune (~vcarbune@80-218-192-6.dclient.hispeed.ch)
  193. # [10:54] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181151161.pp.htv.fi)
  194. # [10:56] * Joins: JibberJim (~opera@212.58.232.179)
  195. # [10:57] * Joins: zdobersek (~zdobersek@cpe-77.38.31.63.cable.t-1.si)
  196. # [11:00] * Quits: JibberJim (~opera@212.58.232.179) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  197. # [11:03] * Joins: Kolombiken1 (~Adium@217.13.228.226)
  198. # [11:06] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@50-0-248-88.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  199. # [11:06] * Quits: Kolombiken (~Adium@217.13.228.226) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  200. # [11:07] * Kolombiken1 is now known as Kolombiken
  201. # [11:09] <jgraham> darobin: So, how much would you object to trying my *highly* experimental github/critic integration with the html-testsuite repo?
  202. # [11:10] <jgraham> So far all it can do is authenticate users against github and create a critic review from a github pr. It never tries to write any data back to github
  203. # [11:11] <Ms2ger> As long as it can't break anything, why not?
  204. # [11:11] <jgraham> (that should change; it should at least comment on the pull request to indicate the corresponding critic review, and allow the PR to be merged directly when the review is approved)
  205. # [11:11] <jgraham> (but that doesn't work yet)
  206. # [11:12] <jgraham> (and by "doesn't work" I mean "doesn't have a single line of code written")
  207. # [11:12] <darobin> jgraham: so basically you're saying that you have something that might greatly enhance using the repo but that won't break anything if it doesn't work?
  208. # [11:13] <darobin> I can't see why I'd object to that :)
  209. # [11:13] <jgraham> I can't think of any way it could break anything at least :)
  210. # [11:13] <darobin> that's good enough for me
  211. # [11:13] <darobin> so long as it doesn't force itself on unsuspecting users and doesn't break anything, go go go!
  212. # [11:14] * Joins: JibberJim (~opera@212.58.232.179)
  213. # [11:17] * Joins: mbatle (mbatle@pasanda.collabora.co.uk)
  214. # [11:19] * Quits: JibberJim (~opera@212.58.232.179) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  215. # [11:27] * Joins: richt (~richt@178-32-63-216.ovh.net)
  216. # [11:28] * Joins: baku (~baku@2-236-39-253.ip231.fastwebnet.it)
  217. # [11:31] <jgraham> OK, well I added it. Just need someone to make a pull request now :)
  218. # [11:32] <jgraham> (also I found something (that I expect I caused to be) broken in critic. Need to fix that)
  219. # [11:32] <Ms2ger> Can I use it for the section tests?
  220. # [11:33] <jgraham> Perhaps. Try closing and reopeneing the pull request and see what happens
  221. # [11:34] <jgraham> Although I don't think I tried it with branches containing multiple commits, so I guess that is more than usually likely to not work.
  222. # [11:35] <jgraham> And it won't preserve the exisiting comments yet
  223. # [11:35] * Famic is now known as Somatt
  224. # [11:35] <jgraham> So if you care about those don't use it
  225. # [11:36] <jgraham> (I mean, they won't get copied across. They will of course not be altered)
  226. # [11:39] <Ms2ger> I think I do care about those :)
  227. # [11:40] * Joins: cheron (~cheron@unaffiliated/cheron)
  228. # [11:41] * Quits: stevefaulkner (~stevefaul@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: stevefaulkner)
  229. # [11:45] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@204.198-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) (Quit: bbl)
  230. # [11:47] * Joins: stevefaulkner (~stevefaul@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
  231. # [11:54] * Quits: vcarbune (~vcarbune@80-218-192-6.dclient.hispeed.ch) (Remote host closed the connection)
  232. # [11:54] * Quits: niloy (~niloy@115.112.64.6) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  233. # [11:57] * Quits: stevefaulkner (~stevefaul@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: stevefaulkner)
  234. # [11:57] <annevk> Hmm, this fetching stuff needs some kind of different model than simply returning the response
  235. # [12:03] <hsivonen> I wish objectors to DRM were a bit better about making conclusions and paid more attention to what Mark Watson has said in terms of the assumptions that go into those conclusions
  236. # [12:04] * Joins: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  237. # [12:04] * Quits: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com) (Client Quit)
  238. # [12:05] * Joins: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  239. # [12:05] * Joins: charl_ (~charl@charl.eu)
  240. # [12:06] * Joins: niloy (~niloy@115.112.111.246)
  241. # [12:14] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@c-67-180-8-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  242. # [12:15] * Joins: JibberJim (~opera@212.58.232.179)
  243. # [12:19] * Quits: JibberJim (~opera@212.58.232.179) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  244. # [12:27] * Joins: richt_ (~richt@178-32-57-32.ovh.net)
  245. # [12:28] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@c-67-180-8-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: sicking)
  246. # [12:28] * Joins: JibberJim (~opera@212.58.232.179)
  247. # [12:29] <hsivonen> annevk: what's the legacy IE API for reading the character encoding of a document?
  248. # [12:29] <hsivonen> document.characterSet is not working for me
  249. # [12:29] <annevk> charset maybe?
  250. # [12:30] * annevk forgot :/
  251. # [12:30] <annevk> yeah, looks like it should be charset
  252. # [12:30] <hsivonen> I tried that. not working, either
  253. # [12:31] * Quits: richt (~richt@178-32-63-216.ovh.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  254. # [12:31] <hsivonen> is it empty for script-created docs?
  255. # [12:31] <hsivonen> shouldn't it be "unicode" in script-created docs in legacy IE?
  256. # [12:33] * Quits: JibberJim (~opera@212.58.232.179) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  257. # [12:34] * Joins: JibberJim (~opera@212.58.232.179)
  258. # [12:34] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks. Looks like it's different for script-created docs
  259. # [12:35] <hsivonen> document.charset works in a normal doc
  260. # [12:38] <hsivonen> does browser stack support checking a site in a particular language version of IE?
  261. # [12:38] * Quits: JibberJim (~opera@212.58.232.179) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  262. # [12:39] * Quits: xjiujiu (~quassel@218.77.14.202) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  263. # [12:44] <annevk> prolly not
  264. # [12:45] * Joins: JibberJim (~opera@212.58.232.179)
  265. # [12:46] * Quits: espadrine (~thaddee_t@85-218-9-225.dclient.lsne.ch) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  266. # [12:49] * Quits: JibberJim (~opera@212.58.232.179) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  267. # [12:55] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-50-136-134-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  268. # [12:56] <hsivonen> So I need to locate user with Arabic, Persian, Welsh and Vietnamese Windows localizations to load http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/check-charset.htm in IE and report the result
  269. # [12:56] <hsivonen> *users
  270. # [12:58] <jgraham> Welsh?!
  271. # [12:59] <hsivonen> jgraham: yeah. I'm not sure if Welsh is available as the main language of Windows, though. However, it is listed at http://www.science.co.il/language/locale-codes.asp
  272. # [12:59] * Joins: JibberJim (~opera@212.58.232.179)
  273. # [13:01] <hsivonen> interesting. there are distinct entries for sv-se and sv-fi.
  274. # [13:02] <jgraham> http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=a1a48de1-e264-48d6-8439-ab7139c9c14d&displaylang=cy exists
  275. # [13:02] <annevk> o_O
  276. # [13:02] <jgraham> But something said it had to be installed on English language windows
  277. # [13:02] <annevk> HTML crossorigin="anonymous" is different from new XMLHttpRequest({anon:true})
  278. # [13:03] <annevk> We designed this poorly :-(
  279. # [13:03] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@70-89-66-218-ca.sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  280. # [13:03] * Quits: JibberJim (~opera@212.58.232.179) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  281. # [13:03] <hsivonen> jgraham: thanks. If there exist Welsh Windows install discs, the result might be different.
  282. # [13:04] <annevk> hsivonen: error console messages have an effect
  283. # [13:04] <jgraham> hsivonen: I couldn't see any evidence those exist
  284. # [13:04] <hsivonen> annevk: ok
  285. # [13:04] <annevk> hsivonen: e.g. Facebook stopped using Attr-related methods after they got console warnings
  286. # [13:04] <hsivonen> jgraham: thanks
  287. # [13:04] <jgraham> But I might have missed something of course
  288. # [13:10] * Quits: nessy (~silviapf@124-149-71-84.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  289. # [13:12] * Joins: stevefaulkner (~stevefaul@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
  290. # [13:15] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181151161.pp.htv.fi) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  291. # [13:15] * Joins: JibberJim (~opera@212.58.232.179)
  292. # [13:19] * Quits: stevefaulkner (~stevefaul@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: stevefaulkner)
  293. # [13:19] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-86.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  294. # [13:20] * Quits: JibberJim (~opera@212.58.232.179) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  295. # [13:20] * Joins: stevefaulkner (~stevefaul@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
  296. # [13:23] * Joins: yorick (~yorick@vredebest.xs4all.nl)
  297. # [13:23] * Quits: yorick (~yorick@vredebest.xs4all.nl) (Changing host)
  298. # [13:23] * Joins: yorick (~yorick@oftn/member/yorick)
  299. # [13:24] * Quits: yoav_ (~yoav@sdo26-1-78-245-148-181.fbx.proxad.net) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  300. # [13:25] * Joins: tommorris (~tom@wikimedia/Tom-Morris)
  301. # [13:26] * Joins: JibberJim (~opera@212.58.232.179)
  302. # [13:26] <tommorris> can someone set me up an account on wiki.whatwg.org?
  303. # [13:27] <annevk> darobin: I recommend citing http://intertwingly.net/slides/2004/devcon/69.html
  304. # [13:27] <annevk> tommorris: pm me email and username
  305. # [13:27] * Joins: sedovsek (~robert@BSN-143-158-86.dial-up.dsl.siol.net)
  306. # [13:27] <darobin> annevk: thanks, that's a good one!
  307. # [13:28] <darobin> annevk: I was also looking for that zcorpan test that can be interpreted as JS or HTML, do you have the link handy? can't seem to find it
  308. # [13:30] <hsivonen> huh. Installing the Welsh language pack on en-US Windows 7 changed Windows Explorer to Welsh but Internet Explorer remained in English
  309. # [13:30] <hsivonen> so much for IE being a part of Windows
  310. # [13:31] * Quits: sedovsek (~robert@BSN-143-158-86.dial-up.dsl.siol.net) (Client Quit)
  311. # [13:31] <annevk> darobin: http://w3c-test.org/webapps/Workers/tests/submissions/Opera/constructors/Worker/AbstractWorker.onerror.html
  312. # [13:31] <annevk> darobin: I think there are many within the workers test suite
  313. # [13:31] <darobin> ah, thanks, you're a star
  314. # [13:33] * Quits: JibberJim (~opera@212.58.232.179) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  315. # [13:34] * Joins: JohnAlbin (~JohnAlbin@114-36-36-23.dynamic.hinet.net)
  316. # [13:34] <annevk> darobin: are we gonna remove the whole submissions/ stuff from those tests too?
  317. # [13:34] <darobin> damn yes
  318. # [13:34] <annevk> ah, you're a star
  319. # [13:35] * Joins: webguynow (~webguynow@c-24-1-222-204.hsd1.il.comcast.net)
  320. # [13:36] * Quits: JohnAlbin (~JohnAlbin@114-36-36-23.dynamic.hinet.net) (Client Quit)
  321. # [13:36] * Joins: JohnAlbin (~JohnAlbin@114-36-36-23.dynamic.hinet.net)
  322. # [13:41] * Quits: JohnAlbin (~JohnAlbin@114-36-36-23.dynamic.hinet.net) (Client Quit)
  323. # [13:41] <annevk> So you do a request, you have received all the headers and start receiving the response, can you still get a detectable network error at that point?
  324. # [13:42] <annevk> My going theory at the moment is that a network error can only be detected if you never got the response or only part of the headers.
  325. # [13:42] <annevk> Because Content-Length is not reliable.
  326. # [13:43] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@vpnh114.ugent.be)
  327. # [13:44] <annevk> slightlyoff: ^^ see also http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Fetch#Pseudo-code
  328. # [13:45] <annevk> slightlyoff: ideally we design these Request and Response classes somewhat consistently
  329. # [13:49] * Joins: JibberJim (~opera@212.58.232.179)
  330. # [13:51] <annevk> slightlyoff: between the low-level Fetch architecture that is and the Controller thingie; might even want to define the Controller thingie as part of this, haven't really thought that far yet
  331. # [13:51] * Quits: ciluu (~ciluu@2a01:270:201f:0:20c:29ff:fe66:daa2) (Quit: leaving)
  332. # [13:52] * marcosc wants to standardize a feature where if an email client sees that you are cross posting to lists, it slaps you.
  333. # [13:53] <mounir> marcosc: please!
  334. # [13:54] <Ms2ger> Also, if they top-post
  335. # [13:57] <jgraham> Or don't send text/plain. Or don't use > to prefix quoted lines. Or have one of the several varieties of irritating signature (adverts for their mobile phone and/or mail client, pseudo-legal disclaimers)
  336. # [13:58] * Quits: JibberJim (~opera@212.58.232.179) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  337. # [13:58] <darobin> ok, enough TAG trolling for one day
  338. # [13:59] <annevk> haha, that last one
  339. # [14:00] <darobin> it's a bit low, but I couldn't resist :)
  340. # [14:01] <wilhelm> My responses are marked in RED below.
  341. # [14:01] * karlcow wonders if TAG trolling is part of the email client redesigned by marcosc ;)
  342. # [14:01] <Ms2ger> Or use " >" instead of ">"
  343. # [14:02] * Joins: JohnAlbin (~JohnAlbin@114-36-36-23.dynamic.hinet.net)
  344. # [14:02] * Ms2ger glares at howcome
  345. # [14:04] <annevk> So what if you pass Fetch both a Request object and a ResponseNotifier object
  346. # [14:05] <annevk> Fetch doesn't actually return anything (unless maybe when sync? hmm) and ResponseNotifier tells you what's going on
  347. # [14:06] <annevk> I guess you'd either pass the ResponseNotifier or the sync flag
  348. # [14:07] <annevk> FetchNotifier is prolly better for uplaod events...
  349. # [14:08] <annevk> load*
  350. # [14:08] <jgraham> annevk: I am confused. Are you trying to make a public API? Or an internal API?
  351. # [14:08] <jgraham> (maybe the wiki page says this)
  352. # [14:08] <annevk> jgraham: mostly for specs, but a lot of it will be exposed at some point too
  353. # [14:09] <annevk> (and already is, e.g. by XHR)
  354. # [14:10] <jgraham> Right, but XHR already has an API
  355. # [14:10] <annevk> Some goals I have: centralize redirect handling, centralize CORS, make it possible for a resource to opt into CORS without the request being initiated as such
  356. # [14:11] <annevk> jgraham: oh sure, feel free to read "FetchNotifier object" as "FetchNotifier concept"
  357. # [14:11] <Ms2ger> Are those goals on the wiki? :)
  358. # [14:11] <annevk> Ms2ger: I'm making this up as I go :)
  359. # [14:12] <annevk> well not entirely, but it's hard to do a brain dump
  360. # [14:14] <annevk> also, lunch
  361. # [14:14] * Joins: richt (~richt@1.223.218.28)
  362. # [14:17] * Joins: Badreddin (~Nur@189.193.98.57)
  363. # [14:18] * Quits: richt_ (~richt@178-32-57-32.ovh.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  364. # [14:19] * Quits: richt (~richt@1.223.218.28) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  365. # [14:20] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@70-89-66-218-ca.sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: rniwa)
  366. # [14:29] * Quits: stevefaulkner (~stevefaul@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: stevefaulkner)
  367. # [14:30] * Joins: stevefaulkner (~stevefaul@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
  368. # [14:42] * Joins: scor (scor@nat/acquia/x-mpdobckyglxrfpzw)
  369. # [14:42] * Quits: scor (scor@nat/acquia/x-mpdobckyglxrfpzw) (Changing host)
  370. # [14:42] * Joins: scor (scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
  371. # [14:47] * Quits: niloy (~niloy@115.112.111.246) (Quit: Leaving)
  372. # [14:48] * Joins: erichynds (~ehynds@64.206.121.41)
  373. # [14:49] * Quits: tomasf (~tomasf@77.72.97.4.c.fiberdirekt.net) (Quit: tomasf)
  374. # [14:53] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@193-64-23-49-nat.elisa-mobile.fi)
  375. # [15:05] * Joins: decotii (~decotii@hq.croscon.com)
  376. # [15:09] * Joins: yodasw16 (~yodasw16@ql1fwhide.rockfin.com)
  377. # [15:10] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  378. # [15:10] * Quits: yodasw16 (~yodasw16@ql1fwhide.rockfin.com) (Client Quit)
  379. # [15:10] * Joins: yodasw16 (~yodasw16@ql1fwhide.rockfin.com)
  380. # [15:15] * Quits: Badreddin (~Nur@189.193.98.57) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  381. # [15:15] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-86.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  382. # [15:19] * Quits: shanestephens (shanesteph@nat/google/x-lijhmsoojnqgqgji) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  383. # [15:26] * Joins: jryans (~jryans@office.massrel.com)
  384. # [15:27] * Joins: Badreddin (~Nur@189.193.27.199)
  385. # [15:27] * Joins: HLFH (~hlfh@rea75-1-78-192-252-123.fbxo.proxad.net)
  386. # [15:28] * Quits: baku (~baku@2-236-39-253.ip231.fastwebnet.it) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  387. # [15:29] <hsivonen> annevk: do you know whether IE defaults to ISO-8859-2 or Windows-1250 in locales where the traditional Windows system encoding is Windows-1250 (Central European)?
  388. # [15:29] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-86.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  389. # [15:30] * Quits: HLFH (~hlfh@rea75-1-78-192-252-123.fbxo.proxad.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  390. # [15:32] * Joins: sedovsek (~robert@BSN-143-158-86.dial-up.dsl.siol.net)
  391. # [15:37] * Quits: stevefaulkner (~stevefaul@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: stevefaulkner)
  392. # [15:39] <annevk> hsivonen: no sorry
  393. # [15:40] * Quits: erichynds (~ehynds@64.206.121.41)
  394. # [15:41] <hsivonen> annevk: I guess it's best to fix en-US before trying to rally localizers to check if the localization agrees with IE
  395. # [15:42] * Joins: JohnAlbin_ (~JohnAlbin@114-36-36-23.dynamic.hinet.net)
  396. # [15:43] * Quits: JohnAlbin (~JohnAlbin@114-36-36-23.dynamic.hinet.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  397. # [15:43] * JohnAlbin_ is now known as JohnAlbin
  398. # [15:44] <MikeSmith> should navigator.plugins and navigator.mimetypes be part of the DOM spec?
  399. # [15:44] <hsivonen> in the countries whose language localizations default to ISO-8859-2, Firefox is more popular than IE, so probably best not to touch those defaults even if they disagreed with IE
  400. # [15:44] <MikeSmith> https://plus.google.com/111523616060404197347/posts/LG3SknZdamB
  401. # [15:48] * Quits: eric_carlson (~eric@2620:149:4:1b01:9b3:f177:ecb3:bc8f) (Quit: eric_carlson)
  402. # [15:48] * Joins: TallTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  403. # [15:48] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-115-221.dsl.telepac.pt) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  404. # [15:48] <jgraham> Just hope he never finds out about all the different properties on the window object that are identical to "window"
  405. # [15:48] * Joins: eric_carlson (~eric@2620:149:4:1b01:1172:909:92bb:f8b5)
  406. # [15:49] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-115-221.dsl.telepac.pt)
  407. # [15:49] <hsivonen> hmm. Firefox is more popular than IE in Vietnam, too
  408. # [15:49] * Quits: eric_carlson (~eric@2620:149:4:1b01:1172:909:92bb:f8b5) (Client Quit)
  409. # [15:50] * Joins: richt (~richt@1.223.218.28)
  410. # [15:50] <Ms2ger> Or something as weird as element.firstChild.parentNode
  411. # [15:50] * Joins: eric_carlson (~eric@17.212.152.104)
  412. # [15:50] * Joins: richt_ (~richt@prod07.pvpn.lon.witopia.net)
  413. # [15:50] <hsivonen> someone should do a study to see if Polish Web content declares its encoding more often than Russian or Japanese Web content
  414. # [15:53] * Quits: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  415. # [15:54] <annevk> zewt: thanks
  416. # [15:54] * Joins: alrra (~alrra@188.24.72.71)
  417. # [15:54] * Quits: alrra (~alrra@188.24.72.71) (Changing host)
  418. # [15:54] * Joins: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra)
  419. # [15:54] * Quits: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  420. # [15:54] <annevk> hsivonen: yeah I guess that's fair
  421. # [15:54] <marcosc> hsivonen: might be something to ask http://www.webfoundation.org/ to look into.
  422. # [15:54] <annevk> hsivonen: localizers have enough other things to worry about as it is I suppose
  423. # [15:55] * Quits: richt (~richt@1.223.218.28) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  424. # [15:55] <annevk> MikeSmith: we cannot remove them from the platform?
  425. # [15:55] <hsivonen> annevk: it's also plausible that in some locale Firefox market share is low because of wrong encoding default
  426. # [15:55] <annevk> MikeSmith: I haven't really studied them, but vague recollection suggests they're not particular brilliant
  427. # [15:56] <Ms2ger> Maybe we should decode non-declared content with a random charset to encourage people to declare their stuff
  428. # [15:56] <annevk> hsivonen: I suspect Taiwan
  429. # [15:56] * Joins: alrra (~alrra@188.24.72.71)
  430. # [15:56] * Quits: alrra (~alrra@188.24.72.71) (Changing host)
  431. # [15:56] * Joins: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra)
  432. # [15:57] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-115-221.dsl.telepac.pt) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  433. # [15:57] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah don't seem like. I'd wonder what kinds of scripts would be using them and why
  434. # [15:57] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: or the replacement encoding :-)
  435. # [15:57] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-115-221.dsl.telepac.pt)
  436. # [15:58] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, fingerprinting
  437. # [15:58] <annevk> MikeSmith: presumably detecting if Flash works
  438. # [15:58] <Ms2ger> And https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/plugincheck/
  439. # [15:58] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: :)
  440. # [15:58] <MikeSmith> http://www.howtocreate.co.uk/wrongWithIE/?chapter=navigator.plugins
  441. # [15:58] * Parts: tommorris (~tom@wikimedia/Tom-Morris)
  442. # [15:58] <annevk> gsnedders: student project: https://twitter.com/hsivonen/status/306055125699551233 ;)
  443. # [16:00] * Quits: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  444. # [16:00] * Joins: alrra (~alrra@188.24.72.71)
  445. # [16:00] * Quits: alrra (~alrra@188.24.72.71) (Changing host)
  446. # [16:00] * Joins: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra)
  447. # [16:01] * Quits: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  448. # [16:01] <jgraham> annevk: And there I was thinking that would be "seek out web developers that don't declare their content encodings and slap them"
  449. # [16:02] * Joins: alrra (~alrra@188.24.72.71)
  450. # [16:02] * Quits: alrra (~alrra@188.24.72.71) (Changing host)
  451. # [16:02] * Joins: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra)
  452. # [16:02] * Quits: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  453. # [16:03] * Joins: alrra (~alrra@188.24.72.71)
  454. # [16:03] * Quits: alrra (~alrra@188.24.72.71) (Changing host)
  455. # [16:03] * Joins: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra)
  456. # [16:03] * Quits: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  457. # [16:04] * Quits: yodasw16 (~yodasw16@ql1fwhide.rockfin.com) (Quit: yodasw16)
  458. # [16:05] * Joins: erichynds (~ehynds@64.206.121.41)
  459. # [16:05] * Joins: alrra (~alrra@188.24.72.71)
  460. # [16:05] * Quits: alrra (~alrra@188.24.72.71) (Changing host)
  461. # [16:05] * Joins: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra)
  462. # [16:05] <annevk> Not necessarily a bad idea
  463. # [16:05] <zewt> doesn't that mean having to slap the entire population of Japan
  464. # [16:06] <annevk> Nah, loads of pages there use utf-8 these days
  465. # [16:06] <jgraham> gsnedders: And this you *could* bill as travelling salesman
  466. # [16:07] * Quits: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  467. # [16:07] * Joins: alrra (~alrra@188.24.72.71)
  468. # [16:07] * Quits: alrra (~alrra@188.24.72.71) (Changing host)
  469. # [16:07] * Joins: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra)
  470. # [16:08] * Joins: garciawebdev (~garciaweb@190.244.95.154)
  471. # [16:08] * Joins: yodasw16 (~yodasw16@ql1fwhide.rockfin.com)
  472. # [16:08] <Ms2ger> jgraham, do explain how you're going to bill that as tsp
  473. # [16:08] * Joins: stevefaulkner (~stevefaul@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
  474. # [16:08] <zewt> incidentally, if any developer i work with has the urge to have a server redirect to data:, i'm allowed to slap *him*, i hope
  475. # [16:09] * Joins: baku (~baku@2-227-7-116.ip183.fastwebnet.it)
  476. # [16:09] * Quits: yodasw16 (~yodasw16@ql1fwhide.rockfin.com) (Client Quit)
  477. # [16:10] <jgraham> Ms2ger: I imagine you want to find an efficient route between all the people deserving of a slap
  478. # [16:10] * Joins: krawchyk (~krawchyk@65.220.49.251)
  479. # [16:11] <zewt> really it's hard to blame regular joe authors missing charset declarations, when everything works for them without it :|
  480. # [16:11] <zewt> need to go back in time and slap whoever it was that made the encoding default to the locale
  481. # [16:12] <jgraham> zewt: If I really blamed them, I would suggest someone that could slap harder to undertake the project
  482. # [16:13] <annevk> zewt: another case I'm considering is a redirect to a blob URL
  483. # [16:13] <annevk> zewt: which has the potential to never work I suppose, depending on how that auto-revoking thing works
  484. # [16:14] <annevk> http://hg.mozilla.org/integration/mozilla-inbound/rev/e9e4dab21e79 teehee
  485. # [16:17] * Joins: yodasw16 (~yodasw16@ql1fwhide.rockfin.com)
  486. # [16:23] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@cpe-70-112-101-224.austin.res.rr.com)
  487. # [16:30] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  488. # [16:31] <zewt> annevk: i'm sort of wondering if blob URLs should be implemented by binding to the blob at resolve time (or with a slightly higher-level resolve wrapper, like we talked about), then having fetch just grab the data from the bound blob
  489. # [16:31] <zewt> so they would actually *only* work for APIs that (in one way or another) cause the parsed url to be bound to the blob
  490. # [16:32] <annevk> it seems kinda silly that you wouldn't be able to pass the blob around though
  491. # [16:32] <zewt> though that would mean that weirder things like blob URLs in stylesheets probably wouldn't work (which they possibly shouldn't for autorevoking URLs, but probably should for explicit ones)
  492. # [16:32] * Quits: jryans (~jryans@office.massrel.com) (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
  493. # [16:32] <zewt> (if only because afaik they do today)
  494. # [16:32] * Joins: jryans (~jryans@office.massrel.com)
  495. # [16:32] <annevk> CSS has to work
  496. # [16:32] <annevk> it's the number one reason we have these as URLs to begin with
  497. # [16:32] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  498. # [16:33] <annevk> I'm not convinced by that use case much, but sicking is
  499. # [16:34] <zewt> assigning to element.style.backgroundImage is reasonable, but saying style.textContent = ".foo { background-image: url(" + blobURL + ");"; would be terrible (that's the case that seems harder)
  500. # [16:34] <zewt> at least, hard for autorevoke (though I know little to nothing about css in the details, which makes everything look harder)
  501. # [16:35] <zewt> hmm, curious about the latter evil case, going to try a couple things...
  502. # [16:36] <annevk> even if you assign to backgroundImage you still have to wrap it in url() so you still invoke the CSS parser first
  503. # [16:36] <annevk> and again, the case sicking stressed was where you wouldn't have an API and indeed did the string building thing
  504. # [16:38] <SimonSapin> annevk: we had comment on CSS encoding detection: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0402.html
  505. # [16:38] <SimonSapin> "As a security precaution, UAs should skip steps 3 and 4 of the algorithm to determine the fallback encoding when the referring stylesheet or document is not _same-origin_ with the stylesheet. See <https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20886>."
  506. # [16:39] <SimonSapin> steps 3 and 4 being using link[charset] or the referring documen’s encoding
  507. # [16:40] * Quits: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  508. # [16:40] <annevk> SimonSapin: It's not entirely clear whether that is necessary yet
  509. # [16:40] <annevk> SimonSapin: hsivonen and to a lesser extent, I, are on the case
  510. # [16:41] <SimonSapin> annevk: good
  511. # [16:41] <zewt> annevk: the case i'm wondering about is where images defer image loads until a style actually matches
  512. # [16:41] <zewt> eg. div:hover { background-image } doesn't load the image in Chrome until you actually hover
  513. # [16:41] <zewt> i don't know if that's a style resolution thing (eg. they never even parse the background-image until something matches, which seems like a likely optimization) or something later
  514. # [16:42] <zewt> but i'm just wondering if it's specified what happens if a blob URL is valid when the style is set, but no longer exists when the style later matches
  515. # [16:43] <annevk> you have to parse background-image
  516. # [16:43] * Joins: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra)
  517. # [16:43] <annevk> for CSSOM purposes but also e.g. if there's a later background-image declaration
  518. # [16:44] * Joins: alrra_ (~alrra@188.24.72.71)
  519. # [16:44] <zewt> i mean, if nothing actually matches the selector, you don't care about the background-image until something does
  520. # [16:45] <zewt> https://zewt.org/~glenn/test-hover-blob-url.html <- if (and only if) you hover the div before the timeout happens, the image works (and keeps working forever)
  521. # [16:45] <zewt> (in chrome)
  522. # [16:46] <annevk> sure, but that doesn't mean the URL isn't parsed
  523. # [16:46] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@50-0-248-88.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  524. # [16:46] <annevk> I think that more likely indicates the model where the content is not fetched
  525. # [16:47] <zewt> but that's the issue, really: blob URLs are dependent on when the fetch actually happens
  526. # [16:47] <zewt> same as the problem i mentioned on the list recently, with <img> updates that per spec can begin either sync or async
  527. # [16:48] * Quits: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  528. # [16:48] * Quits: alrra_ (~alrra@188.24.72.71) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  529. # [16:49] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@cpe-142-11-82-156.socal.rr.com) (Quit: JonathanNeal)
  530. # [16:51] <annevk> Kind a troubling that none of the implementors seem to care much
  531. # [16:55] <zewt> annevk: was redirecting to a blob URL something you were thinking of as possibly useful, or just as something that needs to be defined
  532. # [16:56] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@vpnh114.ugent.be) (Quit: bbl)
  533. # [16:57] <annevk> latter
  534. # [16:58] <annevk> in particular, I wonder if we should just do what Chrome does, which is to only allow redirecting to http/https
  535. # [16:58] <annevk> or if it should be more broad, where you could redirect to about/blob/data/ftp too
  536. # [16:58] * Quits: Samuel_Roldan (~Samuel_Ro@12.207.22.82) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  537. # [16:58] <gsnedders> What, HTTP redirects, or what are we talking about?
  538. # [16:58] <annevk> are there other redirects?
  539. # [16:59] <gsnedders> meta?
  540. # [16:59] * Joins: espadrine (~thaddee_t@85-218-9-225.dclient.lsne.ch)
  541. # [16:59] <annevk> <meta> navigates I think, so it's not quite the same
  542. # [16:59] * Quits: mven (~mven@ip68-224-15-53.lv.lv.cox.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  543. # [17:01] <gsnedders> annevk: There's certainly a security argument for Opera's behaviour of not allowing redirects from public network to private networks.
  544. # [17:01] <zewt> i don't think navigating to blob urls is meant to be allowed, redirecting say images is weird but I suppose it doesn't matter if it works (as long as the cause is well-defined)
  545. # [17:01] <gsnedders> e.g., from the internet to my local network
  546. # [17:02] <annevk> without Yngve, I wonder if that survives when Opera's engine is Chromium
  547. # [17:02] * Joins: Samuel_Roldan (~Samuel_Ro@12.207.22.82)
  548. # [17:02] <gsnedders> zewt: I don't like the idea of navigating to blob URLs, just as principle.
  549. # [17:02] * Quits: erichynds (~ehynds@64.206.121.41)
  550. # [17:02] <SimonSapin> what’s a blob URL?
  551. # [17:03] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: One referring to a Blob object.
  552. # [17:03] <jgraham> What's a principle?
  553. # [17:03] <annevk> What's a jgraham?
  554. # [17:03] <annevk> Pretty sure the answer is 17
  555. # [17:03] <jgraham> So
  556. # [17:03] <gsnedders> Nah, my dice roll was 4.
  557. # [17:04] * Quits: TallTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  558. # [17:04] * Joins: erichynds (~ehynds@64.206.121.41)
  559. # [17:04] <jgraham> I'm not sure why you couldn't navigate to a blob URL really. I mean if img.src = blob_url works, why wouldn't it for iframe?
  560. # [17:04] * Joins: eresair (~eresair@c-24-5-78-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  561. # [17:04] * Quits: Samuel_Roldan (~Samuel_Ro@12.207.22.82) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  562. # [17:06] * Joins: Samuel_Roldan (~Samuel_Ro@12.207.22.82)
  563. # [17:06] <zewt> gsnedders: pretty sure it's meant to not work, but I don't know off-hand what stops it
  564. # [17:08] <gsnedders> jgraham: It just seems like it should make it harder to GC blobs
  565. # [17:08] * Joins: TallTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  566. # [17:09] * Joins: linclark (~clark@c-67-186-35-246.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
  567. # [17:10] <jgraham> gsnedders: Is it any harder than what we have currently with document.open?
  568. # [17:10] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  569. # [17:10] * Quits: sedovsek (~robert@BSN-143-158-86.dial-up.dsl.siol.net) (Quit: sedovsek)
  570. # [17:11] <gsnedders> I don't know, it's not Old Norse. I don't have it swapped in.
  571. # [17:11] <gsnedders> And I don't know where I left my web platform page files.
  572. # [17:12] <zewt> gsnedders: blob URLs are revoked during "unloading document cleanup steps", though I don't know whether that happens early enough to prevent navigation to it
  573. # [17:12] <jgraham> I don't realy have web platform swapped in either :(
  574. # [17:12] <zewt> (no idea about navigating an iframe)
  575. # [17:13] <gsnedders> An iframe problabbly isn't that bad. window.open is probably the evil case, though.
  576. # [17:13] <gsnedders> As then it can outlive the parent.
  577. # [17:13] <zewt> yeah.
  578. # [17:13] <jgraham> Or location.href
  579. # [17:13] <zewt> and navigating the same context (^)
  580. # [17:13] <gsnedders> jgraham: But navigating allows discarding the old context, right?
  581. # [17:14] <gsnedders> jgraham: Or you mean to a blob?
  582. # [17:14] <jgraham> gsnedders: I mean to a blob
  583. # [17:14] <gsnedders> I think this is why I think it shouldn't be allowed.
  584. # [17:14] <gsnedders> But we already have to allow it for img, don't we?
  585. # [17:14] <gsnedders> And I don't really want to introduce inconsistency.
  586. # [17:15] <zewt> well, putting blob URLs in <img> is the #1 use for it
  587. # [17:15] <zewt> do you mean server redirects to a blob: url in <img>?
  588. # [17:16] <gsnedders> I think that's definitely bad, as that's going from public network to some per-machine.
  589. # [17:16] <zewt> i don't think it's definitely bad, i just think it's useless and it should do whatever's easiest
  590. # [17:17] <jgraham> zewt: "After creating the Document object, but before any script execution, certainly before the parser stops, the user agent must update the session history with the new page." Updating the session history calls "unload"
  591. # [17:17] * Quits: henrikkok (~henrikkok@81.27.221.193) (Quit: Leaving.)
  592. # [17:17] <jgraham> Which calls "unloading document cleanup steps"
  593. # [17:17] * Joins: izhak (~izhak@31.47.117.1)
  594. # [17:17] <jgraham> So it seems like the blob should start loading
  595. # [17:17] <zewt> jgraham: but that's still after the new document ahs been fetched
  596. # [17:17] <jgraham> and then be revoked half-way thorugh
  597. # [17:18] <zewt> revoking a URL definitely shouldn't cause halfway-done fetches to fail
  598. # [17:18] <zewt> (that's exposing async behavior)
  599. # [17:18] <jgraham> Well it's pretty clear this part of the spec didn't account for the idea of revokable urls
  600. # [17:19] <zewt> sure, there's a lot of that I think
  601. # [17:19] * Joins: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-86-151.dynamic.qsc.de)
  602. # [17:19] <annevk> I also wonder how navigate accounts for a sequence of redirects
  603. # [17:20] <jgraham> I think the whole idea is very unsound and is likely to lead to interop failures
  604. # [17:20] <jgraham> Because each implementation will do whatever's easy and by the time we fix all the plumbing in the spec, the web will depend on specific, hard to spec/implement (in other engines) behaviour
  605. # [17:21] <annevk> No shit
  606. # [17:21] <jgraham> Well, not everything's like that
  607. # [17:22] <jgraham> But this seems to be taking something that is a fairly low-level assumption and ripping it up
  608. # [17:23] <jgraham> (of course there are other cases where urls can just stop working, but those are typically error conditions, not part of the required behaviour)
  609. # [17:25] <gsnedders> The big problem is that you have URLs that are very short temporarily. I'd rather never have introduced such URLs. :(
  610. # [17:25] * Quits: mitemitreski (~mitemitre@212.120.17.179) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  611. # [17:25] <annevk> Yeah, where was everyone when I argued that position on the list?
  612. # [17:26] <gsnedders> Feeling like I didn't have the time to follow what mailing lists I was already on? :)
  613. # [17:26] * Joins: gavinc (~gavin@50.0.77.3)
  614. # [17:26] <jgraham> annevk: Dunno, when was this?
  615. # [17:26] <annevk> Year ago or so
  616. # [17:27] <zewt> i don't think blob URLs are necessarily a mistake (though there are a lot of loose ends); but non-auto-revoking ones were
  617. # [17:27] <zewt> putting manual resource management into a language and platform entirely designed for automatic resource management is a bit hopeless
  618. # [17:29] <annevk> We should have started out with object-only. Assigning blob objects to img.src. And then expand from there
  619. # [17:31] <jgraham> annevk: Agreed, but looking back, it seems the reason I didn't say anything was that the argument was about CSSOM
  620. # [17:32] <jgraham> And I didn't think clearly enough about how bad this kind of url would be
  621. # [17:32] <annevk> I would have argued harder if my foresight would've been better.
  622. # [17:34] * Joins: jmason (~jmason@174.137.103.143)
  623. # [17:34] <gsnedders> Damn it, annevk! I thought we had a clairvoyant!
  624. # [17:34] * Quits: charl_ (~charl@charl.eu) (Quit: leaving)
  625. # [17:35] <annevk> The future is now, but tomorrow is designed via handwavery and uneducated guesses
  626. # [17:35] <zewt> i don't think it's that bad, or that there are problems that hard to solve (or even any problems that we don't seem to already have solutions for, though I don't know about the CSS details)
  627. # [17:39] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@193-64-23-49-nat.elisa-mobile.fi) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  628. # [17:40] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181151161.pp.htv.fi)
  629. # [17:46] <annevk> Hmm, I wonder if there's some way in which HTML can change so it doesn't need the manual redirect flag
  630. # [17:46] <annevk> In navigate
  631. # [17:46] <marcosc> LOL: Well you know, software is hard. Let's go shopping!
  632. # [17:51] * Joins: bholley (~bholley@nat/mozilla/x-nclvuzfcdecdaudm)
  633. # [17:54] <annevk> Maybe the answer to "manual redirect flag" is to use basic_fetch...
  634. # [17:54] <annevk> Meh
  635. # [17:55] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@2620:149:4:1b01:d518:701e:1a0e:7bf4)
  636. # [17:56] * Joins: mven (~mven@169.241.49.193)
  637. # [17:59] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@2620:149:4:1b01:d518:701e:1a0e:7bf4) (Client Quit)
  638. # [18:00] * Joins: jamesr_ (~jamesr@173-164-251-190-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  639. # [18:01] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  640. # [18:01] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@c-98-237-137-173.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  641. # [18:04] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-86.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: tantek)
  642. # [18:07] * Joins: JesperHansen (~JesperHan@0x5b90c2f0.dhcp.fiberflex.dk)
  643. # [18:11] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@17.212.152.13)
  644. # [18:12] * Quits: skaegi (uid5971@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-daqznwcjqtfpjxke) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  645. # [18:13] * Joins: hasather_ (~hasather_@cm-84.210.170.238.getinternet.no)
  646. # [18:16] * Joins: ap_ (~ap@2620:149:4:1b01:ecbe:27a1:9d8d:4748)
  647. # [18:18] * Quits: stevefaulkner (~stevefaul@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: stevefaulkner)
  648. # [18:19] * Joins: stevefaulkner (~stevefaul@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
  649. # [18:19] * erichynds is now known as ehynds
  650. # [18:21] * Quits: Smylers (~smylers@host81-143-60-194.in-addr.btopenworld.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
  651. # [18:24] * Quits: jamesr_ (~jamesr@173-164-251-190-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: jamesr_)
  652. # [18:26] * Joins: richt (~richt@1.223.218.28)
  653. # [18:26] <annevk> zewt: so I did notice CORS has some slightly different behavior between user abort and network errors around preflight caches
  654. # [18:26] <annevk> zewt: see the Fetch wiki page algorithms if you don't want to read CORS
  655. # [18:29] * Quits: Samuel_Roldan (~Samuel_Ro@12.207.22.82) (Read error: No route to host)
  656. # [18:29] * Quits: richt_ (~richt@prod07.pvpn.lon.witopia.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  657. # [18:29] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-115-221.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
  658. # [18:29] <annevk> I'm loving the wiki page algorithms myself. So much better than the spec
  659. # [18:29] <annevk> But then I think the consensus was that CORS was a terrible spec
  660. # [18:30] * Joins: Samuel_Roldan (~Samuel_Ro@12.207.22.82)
  661. # [18:30] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-115-221.dsl.telepac.pt)
  662. # [18:30] * Quits: hasather_ (~hasather_@cm-84.210.170.238.getinternet.no) (Remote host closed the connection)
  663. # [18:30] * Quits: richt (~richt@1.223.218.28) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  664. # [18:31] * Quits: izhak (~izhak@31.47.117.1) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  665. # [18:32] * Joins: hasather_ (~hasather_@cm-84.210.170.238.getinternet.no)
  666. # [18:33] * Joins: Kolombiken1 (~Adium@217.13.228.226)
  667. # [18:33] * Quits: mven (~mven@169.241.49.193) (Remote host closed the connection)
  668. # [18:34] * Quits: Kolombiken (~Adium@217.13.228.226) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  669. # [18:35] * Joins: Samuel_Roldan_ (~Samuel_Ro@12.207.22.82)
  670. # [18:35] * Quits: Samuel_Roldan (~Samuel_Ro@12.207.22.82) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  671. # [18:35] * Samuel_Roldan_ is now known as Samuel_Roldan
  672. # [18:37] * Quits: Samuel_Roldan (~Samuel_Ro@12.207.22.82) (Client Quit)
  673. # [18:37] * Quits: darkcypher_bit (~darkcyphe@vpn.space150.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  674. # [18:37] <cwilso> annevk: Aren't all specs terrible in retrospect?
  675. # [18:38] <annevk> cwilso: some are better than others, maybe? But I guess it's like with code. When you look at what you did a year ago, you don't like it anymore...
  676. # [18:39] <annevk> Having said that, I'm still relatively pleased with the DOM Standard and the Encoding Standard
  677. # [18:39] * Quits: stevefaulkner (~stevefaul@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: stevefaulkner)
  678. # [18:39] * Quits: Kolombiken1 (~Adium@217.13.228.226) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  679. # [18:39] * Joins: fr0zenice (~frozenice@unaffiliated/fr0zenice)
  680. # [18:40] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@c-67-180-8-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  681. # [18:40] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@c-67-180-8-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  682. # [18:40] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  683. # [18:40] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@c-67-180-8-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  684. # [18:40] * Quits: darobin (~darobin@78.109.80.74) (Remote host closed the connection)
  685. # [18:40] * GPHemsley wonders what the surprise about Welsh is. It's the most commonly-spoken of the 6 Celtic languages, 2 of which went extinct.
  686. # [18:41] <cwilso> Good morning dglazkov!
  687. # [18:42] <annevk> So hey, can someone explain why XHR has two states for the same thing? (HEADERS_RECEIVED and LOADING)
  688. # [18:43] * Quits: hendry (~hendry@sg.webconverger.com) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  689. # [18:43] * GPHemsley recalls complaining about the lack of a DOM0 spec, too.
  690. # [18:44] <annevk> DOM0 is specced
  691. # [18:47] * Joins: sedovsek (~robert@BSN-143-158-86.dial-up.dsl.siol.net)
  692. # [18:49] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.212.155.63)
  693. # [18:53] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@192.150.22.55)
  694. # [18:53] * ap_ is now known as ap
  695. # [18:56] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  696. # [18:56] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
  697. # [18:57] <Hixie> annevk: i said no api changes :-P
  698. # [18:58] <Hixie> annevk: the manual redirect flag is fine :-P
  699. # [18:58] <annevk> Hixie: I will write you a patch if it comes to that
  700. # [18:58] <Hixie> nooooooooo
  701. # [18:59] <Hixie> then i won't understand what's going on anymore
  702. # [18:59] <Hixie> it's not writing the patch that takes my time up
  703. # [18:59] <Hixie> it's understanding it and reviewing it
  704. # [18:59] <annevk> Hixie: fair enough
  705. # [18:59] * Joins: jsbell (jsbell@nat/google/x-hwtckhlzxhijjaxx)
  706. # [19:00] <annevk> So there will be some changes as I want to have a single CORS algorithm rather than a couple and I want to change/obsolete "No CORS"
  707. # [19:00] <Hixie> why?
  708. # [19:00] <annevk> A single fetch algorithm, sorry...
  709. # [19:00] <Hixie> i mean why for the "no cors" thing
  710. # [19:01] <GPHemsley> How do people handle being subscribed to both whatwg and www-style? Don't you drown in e-mail?
  711. # [19:01] <Hixie> but why for the other thing too for that matter
  712. # [19:01] <annevk> So we want to do <script src=http://cross-origin.example/></script> and use the script and if CORS happened to be used we can also report errors, but we don't require opt-in on the requesting side
  713. # [19:01] <annevk> That sort of requires a single fetch algorithm and the result will be either tainted or not
  714. # [19:02] * Joins: mven (~mven@169.241.49.193)
  715. # [19:02] * Joins: jonlee (~jonlee@2620:149:4:1b01:6915:b068:5858:236d)
  716. # [19:02] <Hixie> you can't do that
  717. # [19:02] <Hixie> sites break if you include Origin headers unexpectedly
  718. # [19:02] <Hixie> that's why we have the crossorigin attribute in the first place
  719. # [19:02] * Joins: ronaldmansveld (~ronaldman@5ED0EFE5.cm-7-1d.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  720. # [19:02] <annevk> o_O
  721. # [19:03] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@38.122.109.194)
  722. # [19:03] <annevk> I thought the Origin header was included for a bunch of requests to aid with XSS-protection?
  723. # [19:03] <Hixie> only the ones where it's ok to do so
  724. # [19:04] <Hixie> we're very careful about defining which that happens for
  725. # [19:04] <annevk> Is that only CORS and navigation or some such?
  726. # [19:05] <Hixie> off-hand i do not recall
  727. # [19:05] <Hixie> every mention of fetch either specifies on Origin or doesn't send one
  728. # [19:05] <annevk> So I guess we need a mode for <script crossorigin> then that says to fetch the resource using CORS and have it tainted if there's no opt-in, but apply it anyway...
  729. # [19:06] * Parts: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  730. # [19:07] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  731. # [19:07] <Hixie> we have that already
  732. # [19:07] <Hixie> it's what the spec says :-)
  733. # [19:07] <Hixie> i really don't want to touch any of the call sites here
  734. # [19:07] <Hixie> we should keep the api exactly the same
  735. # [19:08] <Hixie> we don't advance the web by repeatedly changing how we describe things
  736. # [19:08] <annevk> Hixie: we don't have that already
  737. # [19:08] <annevk> Hixie: mode is either anonymous or use-credentials if you specify crossorigin=""
  738. # [19:08] * Joins: esprehn_ (~esprehn@67.218.102.201)
  739. # [19:08] <Hixie> right
  740. # [19:08] <annevk> Hixie: and that results in either success or a network error
  741. # [19:08] <Hixie> right
  742. # [19:09] <Hixie> oh wait, you mean to have it not be a network error even though the cors stuff was denied?
  743. # [19:09] <Hixie> why would we do that?
  744. # [19:10] * Joins: pablof (~pablof@144.189.31.1)
  745. # [19:10] <annevk> Hixie: you don't always know if the script you're including has opted in or not and you might not care
  746. # [19:10] * Quits: Benvie (~brandon@cpe-174-097-159-175.nc.res.rr.com)
  747. # [19:10] <Hixie> if you're not debugging it, you don't care anyway, just don't bother setting the attribute
  748. # [19:10] * Joins: Benvie (~brandon@cpe-174-097-159-175.nc.res.rr.com)
  749. # [19:11] <annevk> Hixie: crossorigin also has the side effect of not including credentials which can be nice
  750. # [19:11] <Hixie> *shrug*
  751. # [19:11] <annevk> I'm just channeling repeated requests here
  752. # [19:12] * Quits: Benvie (~brandon@cpe-174-097-159-175.nc.res.rr.com) (Client Quit)
  753. # [19:12] * Joins: hendry (~hendry@sg.webconverger.com)
  754. # [19:12] * Joins: Benvie (~brandon@cpe-174-097-159-175.nc.res.rr.com)
  755. # [19:12] <Hixie> oh. i haven't seen these requests. what are the use cases?
  756. # [19:12] * Joins: stevefaulkner (~stevefaul@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
  757. # [19:13] <annevk> I think it's basically easy of development. It would be nice to get better debugging, but if it's not there you still want scripts to run and you don't know in advance
  758. # [19:14] <annevk> And with large sites with scripts being run on several independent CDNs headers might not be accurate all the time but you still want the site to function even if debugging the end user's setup becomes more complicated because some script comes with the wrong set of headers
  759. # [19:15] <Hixie> if it's purely debugging, we should probably just have the debuggers enable a mode where they report exceptions ignoring origin
  760. # [19:15] * Quits: stevefaulkner (~stevefaul@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Client Quit)
  761. # [19:16] <Hixie> the use cases for <script crossorigin> were about needing to get crash data from deployed stuff, essentially, and for those you can just go and make sure the scripts you care about are setting the cors headers.
  762. # [19:16] <annevk> That doesn't address the case of catching errors on the end user's machine using window.onerror and sending those back to the mothership
  763. # [19:16] <annevk> I just explained why that's not always the case in more complicated setups, as was explained to me.
  764. # [19:17] <Hixie> i wouldn't recommend paying a cdn that can't even get its cors headers straight
  765. # [19:17] <Hixie> but ok
  766. # [19:18] * Joins: KevinMarks (~KevinMark@c-71-204-145-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  767. # [19:18] <Hixie> anyway, sure, we can change things for <script>
  768. # [19:18] <Hixie> let's do that separate from the fetch/cors merge though :-)
  769. # [19:19] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:300:224:d7ff:fef0:8d90)
  770. # [19:20] <annevk> Yeah okay, I'll pull that stuff out and align a bit more with the HTML infrastructure as apparently there's more justification than I thought.
  771. # [19:20] <Hixie> heh
  772. # [19:20] <annevk> I forgot I argued that when crossorigin got added and then someone explained it to me.
  773. # [19:21] <Hixie> i know that for <img> chrome guys actually ran into high profile sites that broke, at least
  774. # [19:25] * Joins: nimbu (~nimbu@sjfw1.adobe.com)
  775. # [19:25] * Quits: jonlee (~jonlee@2620:149:4:1b01:6915:b068:5858:236d) (Quit: jonlee)
  776. # [19:30] * Quits: ap (~ap@2620:149:4:1b01:ecbe:27a1:9d8d:4748) (Quit: ap)
  777. # [19:30] * Quits: cheron (~cheron@unaffiliated/cheron) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  778. # [19:32] <TabAtkins> GPHemsley: I survive by spending at least 4 hours of each day reading and responding to email.
  779. # [19:32] <TabAtkins> Also: doing email during the weekend. And at night. And in the morning before I go to work.
  780. # [19:32] * Quits: sedovsek (~robert@BSN-143-158-86.dial-up.dsl.siol.net) (Quit: sedovsek)
  781. # [19:32] <Hixie> and also while working
  782. # [19:33] <TabAtkins> Sometimes, yes.
  783. # [19:33] <TabAtkins> If I can't avoid it.
  784. # [19:33] * Hixie can't avoid it :-(
  785. # [19:33] <Hixie> i just spontaneously look at my e-mail half-way through a sentence
  786. # [19:33] <Hixie> it's terrible
  787. # [19:33] <TabAtkins> I have the same problem, except for me it's email *and* Twitter.
  788. # [19:33] <Hixie> also, by ruthlessly filtering and scanning subject lines
  789. # [19:33] <Hixie> man, twitter also?
  790. # [19:33] <Hixie> :-/
  791. # [19:33] <GPHemsley> Growl helps with Twitter
  792. # [19:34] <TabAtkins> ::closes twitter:: ::returns to writing a paragraph of spec text:: ::15 seconds later, opens twitter again::
  793. # [19:34] <GPHemsley> ah
  794. # [19:34] <GPHemsley> if you have a Twitter app with Growl notifications, you won't have to actively monitor Twitter
  795. # [19:34] <Hixie> checking my e-mail for me while editing is ^P ^P
  796. # [19:34] <Hixie> which i do far too much
  797. # [19:34] <GPHemsley> (the same probably goes for e-mail, but I don't have that)
  798. # [19:34] <GPHemsley> Cmd+Tab is used a lot :)
  799. # [19:35] <Hixie> and checking irc is just hitting the tidle key
  800. # [19:35] <Hixie> uh, sorry, not tilde. vertical bar.
  801. # [19:36] <Hixie> ok, time to head to work to read more e-mail
  802. # [19:39] <annevk> time to stop reading www-tag
  803. # [19:39] <GPHemsley> hmm... does anybody ever look at this page?
  804. # [19:39] <GPHemsley> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/summary
  805. # [19:39] <GPHemsley> clearly some template recursion going on somewhere
  806. # [19:39] * Quits: TallTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  807. # [19:41] * Quits: esprehn_ (~esprehn@67.218.102.201) (Quit: esprehn_)
  808. # [19:42] <SimonSapin> GPHemsley: I only ever use https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/ and https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/shortlog
  809. # [19:42] <TabAtkins> I've never even seen that page.
  810. # [19:42] <GPHemsley> Heh
  811. # [19:43] <GPHemsley> just click the "csswg" link at the top of the page
  812. # [19:43] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@70.102.199.158)
  813. # [19:43] <GPHemsley> fairly obvious to navigate to :P
  814. # [19:45] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181151161.pp.htv.fi) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 22.0a1/20130223031157])
  815. # [19:45] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181151161.pp.htv.fi)
  816. # [19:46] <annevk> Would it be bad if I expired http://webforms2.org/ ?
  817. # [19:47] * annevk doesn't like obsoleting URLs
  818. # [19:48] * Joins: esprehn_ (esprehn@nat/google/x-youolmmbkgqxdqdu)
  819. # [19:49] * Quits: SimonSapin (~simon@vev69-1-82-232-219-95.fbx.proxad.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  820. # [19:51] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@50-0-133-210.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Quit: Leaving...)
  821. # [19:51] <GPHemsley> AFAICT, it was never even used for anything.
  822. # [19:52] <GPHemsley> http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://webforms2.org/*
  823. # [19:53] * Joins: jamesr_ (jamesr@nat/google/x-ocikgthnzekgtcdq)
  824. # [19:53] <annevk> It's used for what I use it for. A page in memory of Web Forms 2.0. That's it :-)
  825. # [19:54] <annevk> The question is whether I want to keep paying 5-10 bucks a year for that.
  826. # [19:54] <GPHemsley> But before that, it wasn't anything either.
  827. # [19:54] <GPHemsley> So, yeah, IDK that it's worth it.
  828. # [19:54] <GPHemsley> But it's your money :)
  829. # [19:56] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@50-0-248-88.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  830. # [19:56] * Joins: Smylers (~smylers@host86-178-109-32.range86-178.btcentralplus.com)
  831. # [19:57] * Quits: baku (~baku@2-227-7-116.ip183.fastwebnet.it) (Quit: Leaving)
  832. # [19:57] <wilhelm> annevk: I'm doing some spring cleaning too. I registered html5.no in 2007, but never used it for anything.
  833. # [20:01] * Quits: mven (~mven@169.241.49.193) (Remote host closed the connection)
  834. # [20:02] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@kotnet-150.kulnet.kuleuven.be)
  835. # [20:03] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-50-136-134-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  836. # [20:03] * Joins: SimonSapin (~simon@ip-22.net-89-2-144.rev.numericable.fr)
  837. # [20:03] * Quits: Adawerk_ (~ada@169.241.49.57) (Quit: Leaving)
  838. # [20:03] * Quits: esprehn_ (esprehn@nat/google/x-youolmmbkgqxdqdu) (Quit: esprehn_)
  839. # [20:04] * Joins: Adawerk (~ada@169.241.49.57)
  840. # [20:04] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.212.155.63) (Quit: weinig)
  841. # [20:04] * Quits: hasather_ (~hasather_@cm-84.210.170.238.getinternet.no) (Remote host closed the connection)
  842. # [20:05] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@66-87-2-192.pools.spcsdns.net)
  843. # [20:06] * Joins: annevk5 (~annevk@207.218.72.65)
  844. # [20:06] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@207.218.72.65) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  845. # [20:09] * Joins: esprehn_ (esprehn@nat/google/x-wyluyhcfqdasbqkd)
  846. # [20:10] * Joins: skaegi (uid5971@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-abrqbvbsddpkvqqq)
  847. # [20:12] * annevk5 is now known as annevk
  848. # [20:15] <miketaylr> wilhelm: html5.no sounds like a great site for naysayers :)
  849. # [20:15] <Ms2ger> HTML5?
  850. # [20:15] <miketaylr> NO
  851. # [20:15] <Ms2ger> [Grumpy cat]
  852. # [20:15] <Ms2ger> NO
  853. # [20:15] <miketaylr> :))
  854. # [20:15] <Ms2ger> Someone make that
  855. # [20:16] <wilhelm> ... This is a great idea.
  856. # [20:17] <annevk> I've tentatively canceled webforms2.org. Let me know if you want it or think I should keep it.
  857. # [20:17] * Joins: shepazu (~shepazu@108-70-132-46.lightspeed.rlghnc.sbcglobal.net)
  858. # [20:18] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-50-136-134-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  859. # [20:20] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-50-136-134-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  860. # [20:20] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@207.218.72.65) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  861. # [20:21] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@207.218.72.65)
  862. # [20:21] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@207.218.72.65) (Remote host closed the connection)
  863. # [20:22] * Joins: esprehn__ (esprehn@nat/google/x-hurblhfowgvsvklb)
  864. # [20:24] * Quits: jamesr_ (jamesr@nat/google/x-ocikgthnzekgtcdq) (Quit: jamesr_)
  865. # [20:26] * Joins: jamesr_ (jamesr@nat/google/x-avkrlfomdmdfjsnq)
  866. # [20:27] * Quits: jamesr_ (jamesr@nat/google/x-avkrlfomdmdfjsnq) (Client Quit)
  867. # [20:28] * Joins: jamesr_ (~jamesr@216.239.55.197)
  868. # [20:29] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:300:224:d7ff:fef0:8d90) (Quit: brb, OS update installation)
  869. # [20:29] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@v-1045.fw1.sfo1.mozilla.net)
  870. # [20:30] * Quits: nimbu (~nimbu@sjfw1.adobe.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
  871. # [20:34] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|lunch
  872. # [20:35] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@66-87-2-192.pools.spcsdns.net) (Quit: tantek)
  873. # [20:36] <jgraham> Funny things the W3C does #539: Ask testsuite submitters "do you think that the testsuite derived from the intersection of the tests you wrote and the tests that your implementation passes is good enough to demonstrate interop?"
  874. # [20:36] <jgraham> I wouldn't care if good testsuites weren't so important
  875. # [20:37] <jgraham> And it wasn't *even*harder* to get people to contibute with no process carrot
  876. # [20:37] <jgraham> (need to fix that somehow)
  877. # [20:38] * odinho like carrots
  878. # [20:38] <Hixie> wait, what?
  879. # [20:38] <Hixie> jgraham: please tell me you're kidding?
  880. # [20:38] <Ms2ger> Well, that's just MS
  881. # [20:38] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@c-67-180-8-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: sicking)
  882. # [20:39] <jgraham> Hixie: Well they don't *say* the bit about "only the tests that pass"
  883. # [20:39] <jgraham> That bit is implied by people being bad at releasing tests they fail
  884. # [20:40] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:224:d7ff:fef0:8d90)
  885. # [20:41] <Hixie> ah
  886. # [20:42] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-50-136-134-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  887. # [20:58] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  888. # [20:58] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
  889. # [20:59] * Joins: stevefaulkner (~stevefaul@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
  890. # [21:01] * Joins: isherman-book (Adium@nat/google/x-kxxtzgbxizuwfkci)
  891. # [21:01] * Joins: darobin (~darobin@78.208.93.24)
  892. # [21:01] * Quits: jsoncorwin (~textual@c-98-210-130-242.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  893. # [21:03] * Quits: stevefaulkner (~stevefaul@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Client Quit)
  894. # [21:05] * Joins: ronald_mansveld (~ronaldman@095-097-008-146.static.chello.nl)
  895. # [21:05] * ronald_mansveld is now known as Guest99856
  896. # [21:07] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  897. # [21:07] * Guest99856 is now known as ronaldmansvled
  898. # [21:08] * Quits: ronaldmansveld (~ronaldman@5ED0EFE5.cm-7-1d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Disconnected by services)
  899. # [21:08] * ronaldmansvled is now known as ronaldmansveld
  900. # [21:08] * Quits: jamesr_ (~jamesr@216.239.55.197) (Quit: jamesr_)
  901. # [21:09] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@kotnet-150.kulnet.kuleuven.be) (Quit: nn)
  902. # [21:13] * Quits: jernoble (~jernoble@17.212.152.13) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
  903. # [21:14] * Joins: ronald__mansveld (~ronaldman@5ED0EFE5.cm-7-1d.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  904. # [21:14] * Quits: ronaldmansveld (~ronaldman@095-097-008-146.static.chello.nl) (Disconnected by services)
  905. # [21:14] * ronald__mansveld is now known as ronaldmansveld
  906. # [21:17] * Quits: SimonSapin (~simon@ip-22.net-89-2-144.rev.numericable.fr) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  907. # [21:22] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@2620:149:4:1b01:a9d2:fcc6:19fe:d432)
  908. # [21:22] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@2620:149:4:1b01:a9d2:fcc6:19fe:d432) (Client Quit)
  909. # [21:22] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@17.212.154.114)
  910. # [21:23] * Joins: jsoncorwin (~textual@c-50-131-117-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  911. # [21:23] * Joins: hasather_ (~hasather_@cm-84.210.170.238.getinternet.no)
  912. # [21:25] * Quits: isherman-book (Adium@nat/google/x-kxxtzgbxizuwfkci) (Quit: Leaving.)
  913. # [21:26] * Joins: Cromulent (~Cromulent@cpc4-reig5-2-0-cust637.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  914. # [21:27] * Quits: hasather_ (~hasather_@cm-84.210.170.238.getinternet.no) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  915. # [21:29] <Hixie> well -. is a pain
  916. # [21:29] <Hixie> have to lookahead twice
  917. # [21:30] <Hixie> oh i guess that's ok
  918. # [21:30] <Hixie> nevermind
  919. # [21:30] <Hixie> la la la
  920. # [21:30] <GPHemsley> is there a master list of CSS properties?
  921. # [21:31] <GPHemsley> (and which spec they're defined in)
  922. # [21:31] * Quits: darobin (~darobin@78.208.93.24) (Remote host closed the connection)
  923. # [21:31] * Joins: lar_zzz (~lar_zzz@p4FE24DFC.dip.t-dialin.net)
  924. # [21:32] <GPHemsley> oh, I guess MDN will be an OK substitute
  925. # [21:36] * Parts: esprehn_ (esprehn@nat/google/x-wyluyhcfqdasbqkd)
  926. # [21:36] * abstractj|lunch is now known as abstractj
  927. # [21:37] * esprehn__ is now known as esprehn_
  928. # [21:38] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@c-67-180-8-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  929. # [21:42] * Quits: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-86-151.dynamic.qsc.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
  930. # [21:44] * Joins: vcarbune (~vcarbune@80-218-192-6.dclient.hispeed.ch)
  931. # [21:44] * Joins: nessy (silviapf@nat/google/x-besxypgvucllpqil)
  932. # [21:44] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.104.33)
  933. # [21:48] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@17.212.152.13)
  934. # [21:51] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:224:d7ff:fef0:8d90) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  935. # [21:51] <GPHemsley> hmm... Opera's gonna lose a lot of functionality when it switches to WebKit...
  936. # [21:52] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.104.33) (Quit: othermaciej)
  937. # [21:54] * Quits: ronaldmansveld (~ronaldman@5ED0EFE5.cm-7-1d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Quit: Ik ga weg)
  938. # [21:57] <karlcow> GPHemsley: such as?
  939. # [21:57] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@50-0-133-210.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  940. # [21:57] * Joins: nimbu (~nimbu@64.213.70.194)
  941. # [21:57] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  942. # [21:57] <GPHemsley> I'm not keeping a list; it was just a passing remark based on caniuse.com
  943. # [21:57] <GPHemsley> looks like one may be feature queries
  944. # [21:58] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:224:d7ff:fef0:8d90)
  945. # [21:58] <GPHemsley> hmm, maybe "a lot" was hyperbolic
  946. # [21:59] * Quits: ehynds (~ehynds@64.206.121.41)
  947. # [22:01] * Quits: Cromulent (~Cromulent@cpc4-reig5-2-0-cust637.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
  948. # [22:01] <karlcow> ah yes from the point of view of specs implementation, there will be gain and loss
  949. # [22:02] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@192.150.22.55) (Quit: Leaving.)
  950. # [22:03] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@192.150.22.55)
  951. # [22:04] * Quits: lar_zzz (~lar_zzz@p4FE24DFC.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  952. # [22:05] * Quits: linclark (~clark@c-67-186-35-246.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Quit: linclark)
  953. # [22:05] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@192.150.22.55) (Client Quit)
  954. # [22:10] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|away
  955. # [22:11] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@v-1045.fw1.sfo1.mozilla.net)
  956. # [22:11] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@v-1045.fw1.sfo1.mozilla.net) (Client Quit)
  957. # [22:12] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@v-1045.fw1.sfo1.mozilla.net)
  958. # [22:14] * Joins: miketaylrrrr (~miketaylr@cpe-70-112-101-224.austin.res.rr.com)
  959. # [22:15] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@cpe-70-112-101-224.austin.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  960. # [22:15] <esprehn_> hem when is anne when I need him :/
  961. # [22:15] <esprehn_> hrm*
  962. # [22:29] <dglazkov> esprehn_: asleep at the wheel
  963. # [22:31] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@94.116.52.151)
  964. # [22:31] <dglazkov> aha!
  965. # [22:32] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@192.150.22.55)
  966. # [22:33] <annevk> esprehn_: I have returned, though briefly
  967. # [22:35] * Joins: jamesr_ (jamesr@nat/google/x-tsoeaaojiimlzxjr)
  968. # [22:37] <esprehn_> annevk: why does xhr.response return null for ArrayBuffer and Blob when state is LOADING?
  969. # [22:37] <esprehn_> why not return a partial data in an ArrayBuffer
  970. # [22:37] <esprehn_> annevk: we had a team ask for it to support streaming binary data, thinking us returning null was a bug (but the spec is clear here)
  971. # [22:38] <annevk> esprehn_: Blob has synchronous size attribute
  972. # [22:39] <GPHemsley> Argh, the validators have not been updated to include <main>?
  973. # [22:39] <annevk> esprehn_: dunno how it would work with ArrayBuffer, I guess you'd have to return a new one each time?
  974. # [22:39] <GPHemsley> (Which wouldn't be so bad, except "(Suppressing further errors from this subtree.)")
  975. # [22:39] <esprehn_> annevk: yeah, same thing with Blob
  976. # [22:40] <annevk> esprehn_: I suppose even with synchronous size we could still expose it, it would just expose what's available thus far...
  977. # [22:40] <esprehn_> annevk: exactly, we have the knowledge in Webkit, but we do if (m_state != DONE) return 0
  978. # [22:40] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@2620:149:4:1b01:5429:8805:75c5:be3e)
  979. # [22:40] <annevk> esprehn_: if that's cheap in implementations we could do it I suppose pending agreement from Gecko / IE
  980. # [22:40] <annevk> (one of those being sufficient for me)
  981. # [22:43] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@192.150.22.55) (Quit: Leaving.)
  982. # [22:43] * Joins: ginger1 (~Adium@2401:fa00::b9fe:eefe:aafd:68e)
  983. # [22:43] * Quits: krawchyk (~krawchyk@65.220.49.251) (Remote host closed the connection)
  984. # [22:44] <annevk> esprehn_: http://xhr.spec.whatwg.org/ file a bug maybe? I can ask someone from Mozilla to comment
  985. # [22:47] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@2620:149:4:1b01:5429:8805:75c5:be3e) (Quit: weinig)
  986. # [22:48] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.212.155.63)
  987. # [22:49] * Joins: ehsan_ (~ehsan@199.255.40.36)
  988. # [22:50] <esprehn_> annevk: okay
  989. # [22:51] <annevk> smaug____: yt?
  990. # [22:51] <smaug____> annevk: yup
  991. # [22:51] <annevk> smaug____: do you think we should expose ArrayBuffer / Blob during XHR.LOADING as new objects each time you get .response?
  992. # [22:51] <annevk> smaug____: reflecting whatever is loaded thus far
  993. # [22:52] <smaug____> hmm, what do we do now?
  994. # [22:52] * Joins: svl (~me@202.68.83.170)
  995. # [22:52] <annevk> smaug____: we return null
  996. # [22:53] <smaug____> good
  997. # [22:53] <smaug____> I think that is good behavior
  998. # [22:53] <smaug____> less error prone
  999. # [22:53] <annevk> smaug____: so esprehn_ is asking for incremental data
  1000. # [22:54] <smaug____> we need chunked data for the other case?
  1001. # [22:54] * Quits: zdobersek (~zdobersek@cpe-77.38.31.63.cable.t-1.si) (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
  1002. # [22:54] <annevk> I guess there's chunked and also Stream too
  1003. # [22:54] <smaug____> I'm worried that people end up accessing .response all the time and create tons of memory garbage by accident
  1004. # [22:55] <annevk> with the spec only acknowledging "stream" as sicking thought chunked was obsoleted by that
  1005. # [22:55] <smaug____> if we create new ArrayBuffer/Blob all the time
  1006. # [22:55] <annevk> k
  1007. # [22:55] * Quits: nimbu (~nimbu@64.213.70.194) (Quit: Leaving.)
  1008. # [22:55] * Joins: sedovsek (~robert@BSN-143-158-86.dial-up.dsl.siol.net)
  1009. # [22:56] <annevk> smaug____: well Blob / ArrayBuffer are readonly so they could point to the same data all those times...
  1010. # [22:56] <smaug____> I thought truly new objects
  1011. # [22:57] * Joins: pyrsmk (~pyrsmk@2a01:e35:2f52:ead0:b4ba:183c:957:b8e0)
  1012. # [22:57] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.104.33)
  1013. # [22:57] * Quits: jamesr_ (jamesr@nat/google/x-tsoeaaojiimlzxjr) (Quit: jamesr_)
  1014. # [22:57] * Quits: yodasw16 (~yodasw16@ql1fwhide.rockfin.com) (Quit: yodasw16)
  1015. # [22:58] <smaug____> annevk: why wouldn't you then return the same Blob all the time?
  1016. # [22:58] * smaug____ must be missing something here
  1017. # [22:58] <annevk> smaug____: because Blob's are immutable
  1018. # [22:58] <annevk> afaik
  1019. # [22:58] <annevk> .size is supposed to be fixed
  1020. # [22:59] <smaug____> oh, the earlier Blobs would refer only to some parts of the data.
  1021. # [22:59] <smaug____> right
  1022. # [22:59] <smaug____> hmm, what if such Blob is transfered to a worker
  1023. # [22:59] <smaug____> or something like that
  1024. # [23:00] <annevk> you'd have a growing buffer, but the blob's size restricts what it can access from that buffer
  1025. # [23:00] <annevk> doesn't matter where it goes I'd think
  1026. # [23:00] <annevk> but maybe this case is better addressed via the Stream API
  1027. # [23:02] <smaug____> implementation might just get tricky if same data could be accessed on multiple threads
  1028. # [23:05] <annevk> smaug____: btw, another question
  1029. # [23:05] <annevk> smaug____: once you hit HEADERS_RECEIVED, you also hit LOADING right?
  1030. # [23:06] <annevk> smaug____: there's not really any meaningful distinction between the two :(
  1031. # [23:06] * Joins: linclark (~clark@c-67-186-35-246.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
  1032. # [23:06] <annevk> smaug____: so little distinction in fact that the transition is prolly done on a single networking task
  1033. # [23:06] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  1034. # [23:07] <smaug____> so HEADERS_RECEIVED happens before LOADING
  1035. # [23:08] <smaug____> I guess you could abort when you get headers
  1036. # [23:08] <smaug____> if you just want to check existence of some resource
  1037. # [23:08] <annevk> the thing is, LOADING starts when the headers are received
  1038. # [23:09] <annevk> you hit CRLF CRLF in the stream, you know HEADERS_RECEIVED is true, you know LOADING starts
  1039. # [23:09] <smaug____> right
  1040. # [23:09] <annevk> and likely your buffer contains something more like CR LF CR LF XX XX XX
  1041. # [23:09] <annevk> so you know you have to switch straight away
  1042. # [23:10] <annevk> I never quite realized that before
  1043. # [23:11] * Joins: nimbu (~nimbu@199-192-185-201.ip.van.radiant.net)
  1044. # [23:13] * miketaylrrrr is now known as miketaylr
  1045. # [23:16] <annevk> so XHR does not expose state for when fetching starts (send() is invoked) and has two states for when headers are received and two states for when the object is uninitialized
  1046. # [23:16] <annevk> great stuff
  1047. # [23:17] * Quits: svl (~me@202.68.83.170) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  1048. # [23:17] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@94.116.52.151) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1049. # [23:18] * Quits: fr0zenice (~frozenice@unaffiliated/fr0zenice) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1050. # [23:19] * Quits: j_wright (~jwright@ip70-173-176-189.lv.lv.cox.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1051. # [23:24] * Quits: scor (scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
  1052. # [23:24] * Quits: pyrsmk (~pyrsmk@2a01:e35:2f52:ead0:b4ba:183c:957:b8e0) (Quit: tzing)
  1053. # [23:25] <dgorbik> Hixie: hello! One small question about webvtt: "properties corresponding to the 'background' shorthand must be applied to the WebVTT cue background box rather than the List of WebVTT Node Objects." Why can't we apply all properties to cue background box?
  1054. # [23:27] <Hixie> so long as there's no difference, doesn't matter
  1055. # [23:28] <scott_gonzalez> Hixie: If an element that is currently not visible becomes visible directly under the cursor, do you think mouseover should be fired for that element?
  1056. # [23:28] <dgorbik> Hixie: thanks
  1057. # [23:28] <scott_gonzalez> Here's a page showing what I mean: http://dev-test.code.dev/behavior/mouseover-when-element-is-shown.html
  1058. # [23:28] <Hixie> scott_gonzalez: dunno, there's no spec for mouseover as far as i know
  1059. # [23:30] <scott_gonzalez> Hixie: Ok, that's what smaug____ thought you would say.
  1060. # [23:30] <Hixie> heh
  1061. # [23:30] <scott_gonzalez> So there's nowhere to get this standardized? Just talk to the browser vendors individually?
  1062. # [23:30] <Hixie> lots of places to get it standardised, just noone doing it
  1063. # [23:31] <scott_gonzalez> Well, would it be a new spec or added to an existing spec?
  1064. # [23:31] <Hixie> depends if the person whom you find to spec it has a spec alreayd or not
  1065. # [23:31] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@192.150.22.55)
  1066. # [23:32] * Hixie is of the opinion that there should be as many specs as editors, and only because it's bad to have multiple editors per spec
  1067. # [23:32] <Hixie> (otherwise i'd say we should just have one spec, total, for the entire web platform)
  1068. # [23:34] <scott_gonzalez> That brings me to the obvious next question: Would you spec it?
  1069. # [23:34] <Hixie> i'd love to
  1070. # [23:34] <Hixie> but i'm oversubscribed currently
  1071. # [23:37] * Joins: birtles (~chatzilla@rtr.mozilla.or.jp)
  1072. # [23:37] <scott_gonzalez> Ok, I'll start with browser vendors.
  1073. # [23:38] * Joins: thiessenp (~thiessenp@62.83.147.116.dyn.user.ono.com)
  1074. # [23:38] * Quits: thiessenp (~thiessenp@62.83.147.116.dyn.user.ono.com) (Client Quit)
  1075. # [23:38] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@192.150.22.55) (Quit: Leaving.)
  1076. # [23:38] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181151161.pp.htv.fi) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1077. # [23:39] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181151161.pp.htv.fi)
  1078. # [23:42] * Quits: stalled (~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  1079. # [23:45] * Joins: aklein (uid4454@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ltoxouihrlnutsmw)
  1080. # [23:56] * Joins: ehsan__ (~ehsan@199.255.40.36)
  1081. # [23:56] * Quits: ehsan_ (~ehsan@199.255.40.36) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  1082. # Session Close: Tue Feb 26 00:00:00 2013

The end :)