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- # [01:17] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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- # [11:09] <jgraham> darobin: So, how much would you object to trying my *highly* experimental github/critic integration with the html-testsuite repo?
- # [11:10] <jgraham> So far all it can do is authenticate users against github and create a critic review from a github pr. It never tries to write any data back to github
- # [11:11] <Ms2ger> As long as it can't break anything, why not?
- # [11:11] <jgraham> (that should change; it should at least comment on the pull request to indicate the corresponding critic review, and allow the PR to be merged directly when the review is approved)
- # [11:11] <jgraham> (but that doesn't work yet)
- # [11:12] <jgraham> (and by "doesn't work" I mean "doesn't have a single line of code written")
- # [11:12] <darobin> jgraham: so basically you're saying that you have something that might greatly enhance using the repo but that won't break anything if it doesn't work?
- # [11:13] <darobin> I can't see why I'd object to that :)
- # [11:13] <jgraham> I can't think of any way it could break anything at least :)
- # [11:13] <darobin> that's good enough for me
- # [11:13] <darobin> so long as it doesn't force itself on unsuspecting users and doesn't break anything, go go go!
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- # [11:31] <jgraham> OK, well I added it. Just need someone to make a pull request now :)
- # [11:32] <jgraham> (also I found something (that I expect I caused to be) broken in critic. Need to fix that)
- # [11:32] <Ms2ger> Can I use it for the section tests?
- # [11:33] <jgraham> Perhaps. Try closing and reopeneing the pull request and see what happens
- # [11:34] <jgraham> Although I don't think I tried it with branches containing multiple commits, so I guess that is more than usually likely to not work.
- # [11:35] <jgraham> And it won't preserve the exisiting comments yet
- # [11:35] * Famic is now known as Somatt
- # [11:35] <jgraham> So if you care about those don't use it
- # [11:36] <jgraham> (I mean, they won't get copied across. They will of course not be altered)
- # [11:39] <Ms2ger> I think I do care about those :)
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- # [11:57] <annevk> Hmm, this fetching stuff needs some kind of different model than simply returning the response
- # [12:03] <hsivonen> I wish objectors to DRM were a bit better about making conclusions and paid more attention to what Mark Watson has said in terms of the assumptions that go into those conclusions
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- # [12:29] <hsivonen> annevk: what's the legacy IE API for reading the character encoding of a document?
- # [12:29] <hsivonen> document.characterSet is not working for me
- # [12:29] <annevk> charset maybe?
- # [12:30] * annevk forgot :/
- # [12:30] <annevk> yeah, looks like it should be charset
- # [12:30] <hsivonen> I tried that. not working, either
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- # [12:31] <hsivonen> is it empty for script-created docs?
- # [12:31] <hsivonen> shouldn't it be "unicode" in script-created docs in legacy IE?
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- # [12:34] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks. Looks like it's different for script-created docs
- # [12:35] <hsivonen> document.charset works in a normal doc
- # [12:38] <hsivonen> does browser stack support checking a site in a particular language version of IE?
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- # [12:44] <annevk> prolly not
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- # [12:56] <hsivonen> So I need to locate user with Arabic, Persian, Welsh and Vietnamese Windows localizations to load http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/check-charset.htm in IE and report the result
- # [12:56] <hsivonen> *users
- # [12:58] <jgraham> Welsh?!
- # [12:59] <hsivonen> jgraham: yeah. I'm not sure if Welsh is available as the main language of Windows, though. However, it is listed at http://www.science.co.il/language/locale-codes.asp
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- # [13:01] <hsivonen> interesting. there are distinct entries for sv-se and sv-fi.
- # [13:02] <jgraham> http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=a1a48de1-e264-48d6-8439-ab7139c9c14d&displaylang=cy exists
- # [13:02] <annevk> o_O
- # [13:02] <jgraham> But something said it had to be installed on English language windows
- # [13:02] <annevk> HTML crossorigin="anonymous" is different from new XMLHttpRequest({anon:true})
- # [13:03] <annevk> We designed this poorly :-(
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- # [13:03] <hsivonen> jgraham: thanks. If there exist Welsh Windows install discs, the result might be different.
- # [13:04] <annevk> hsivonen: error console messages have an effect
- # [13:04] <jgraham> hsivonen: I couldn't see any evidence those exist
- # [13:04] <hsivonen> annevk: ok
- # [13:04] <annevk> hsivonen: e.g. Facebook stopped using Attr-related methods after they got console warnings
- # [13:04] <hsivonen> jgraham: thanks
- # [13:04] <jgraham> But I might have missed something of course
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- # [13:26] <tommorris> can someone set me up an account on wiki.whatwg.org?
- # [13:27] <annevk> darobin: I recommend citing http://intertwingly.net/slides/2004/devcon/69.html
- # [13:27] <annevk> tommorris: pm me email and username
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- # [13:27] <darobin> annevk: thanks, that's a good one!
- # [13:28] <darobin> annevk: I was also looking for that zcorpan test that can be interpreted as JS or HTML, do you have the link handy? can't seem to find it
- # [13:30] <hsivonen> huh. Installing the Welsh language pack on en-US Windows 7 changed Windows Explorer to Welsh but Internet Explorer remained in English
- # [13:30] <hsivonen> so much for IE being a part of Windows
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- # [13:31] <annevk> darobin: http://w3c-test.org/webapps/Workers/tests/submissions/Opera/constructors/Worker/AbstractWorker.onerror.html
- # [13:31] <annevk> darobin: I think there are many within the workers test suite
- # [13:31] <darobin> ah, thanks, you're a star
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- # [13:34] <annevk> darobin: are we gonna remove the whole submissions/ stuff from those tests too?
- # [13:34] <darobin> damn yes
- # [13:34] <annevk> ah, you're a star
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- # [13:41] <annevk> So you do a request, you have received all the headers and start receiving the response, can you still get a detectable network error at that point?
- # [13:42] <annevk> My going theory at the moment is that a network error can only be detected if you never got the response or only part of the headers.
- # [13:42] <annevk> Because Content-Length is not reliable.
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- # [13:44] <annevk> slightlyoff: ^^ see also http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Fetch#Pseudo-code
- # [13:45] <annevk> slightlyoff: ideally we design these Request and Response classes somewhat consistently
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- # [13:51] <annevk> slightlyoff: between the low-level Fetch architecture that is and the Controller thingie; might even want to define the Controller thingie as part of this, haven't really thought that far yet
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- # [13:52] * marcosc wants to standardize a feature where if an email client sees that you are cross posting to lists, it slaps you.
- # [13:53] <mounir> marcosc: please!
- # [13:54] <Ms2ger> Also, if they top-post
- # [13:57] <jgraham> Or don't send text/plain. Or don't use > to prefix quoted lines. Or have one of the several varieties of irritating signature (adverts for their mobile phone and/or mail client, pseudo-legal disclaimers)
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- # [13:58] <darobin> ok, enough TAG trolling for one day
- # [13:59] <annevk> haha, that last one
- # [14:00] <darobin> it's a bit low, but I couldn't resist :)
- # [14:01] <wilhelm> My responses are marked in RED below.
- # [14:01] * karlcow wonders if TAG trolling is part of the email client redesigned by marcosc ;)
- # [14:01] <Ms2ger> Or use " >" instead of ">"
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- # [14:02] * Ms2ger glares at howcome
- # [14:04] <annevk> So what if you pass Fetch both a Request object and a ResponseNotifier object
- # [14:05] <annevk> Fetch doesn't actually return anything (unless maybe when sync? hmm) and ResponseNotifier tells you what's going on
- # [14:06] <annevk> I guess you'd either pass the ResponseNotifier or the sync flag
- # [14:07] <annevk> FetchNotifier is prolly better for uplaod events...
- # [14:08] <annevk> load*
- # [14:08] <jgraham> annevk: I am confused. Are you trying to make a public API? Or an internal API?
- # [14:08] <jgraham> (maybe the wiki page says this)
- # [14:08] <annevk> jgraham: mostly for specs, but a lot of it will be exposed at some point too
- # [14:09] <annevk> (and already is, e.g. by XHR)
- # [14:10] <jgraham> Right, but XHR already has an API
- # [14:10] <annevk> Some goals I have: centralize redirect handling, centralize CORS, make it possible for a resource to opt into CORS without the request being initiated as such
- # [14:11] <annevk> jgraham: oh sure, feel free to read "FetchNotifier object" as "FetchNotifier concept"
- # [14:11] <Ms2ger> Are those goals on the wiki? :)
- # [14:11] <annevk> Ms2ger: I'm making this up as I go :)
- # [14:12] <annevk> well not entirely, but it's hard to do a brain dump
- # [14:14] <annevk> also, lunch
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- # [15:29] <hsivonen> annevk: do you know whether IE defaults to ISO-8859-2 or Windows-1250 in locales where the traditional Windows system encoding is Windows-1250 (Central European)?
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- # [15:39] <annevk> hsivonen: no sorry
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- # [15:41] <hsivonen> annevk: I guess it's best to fix en-US before trying to rally localizers to check if the localization agrees with IE
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- # [15:44] <MikeSmith> should navigator.plugins and navigator.mimetypes be part of the DOM spec?
- # [15:44] <hsivonen> in the countries whose language localizations default to ISO-8859-2, Firefox is more popular than IE, so probably best not to touch those defaults even if they disagreed with IE
- # [15:44] <MikeSmith> https://plus.google.com/111523616060404197347/posts/LG3SknZdamB
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- # [15:48] <jgraham> Just hope he never finds out about all the different properties on the window object that are identical to "window"
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- # [15:49] <hsivonen> hmm. Firefox is more popular than IE in Vietnam, too
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- # [15:50] <Ms2ger> Or something as weird as element.firstChild.parentNode
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- # [15:50] <hsivonen> someone should do a study to see if Polish Web content declares its encoding more often than Russian or Japanese Web content
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- # [15:54] <annevk> zewt: thanks
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- # [15:54] <annevk> hsivonen: yeah I guess that's fair
- # [15:54] <marcosc> hsivonen: might be something to ask http://www.webfoundation.org/ to look into.
- # [15:54] <annevk> hsivonen: localizers have enough other things to worry about as it is I suppose
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- # [15:55] <annevk> MikeSmith: we cannot remove them from the platform?
- # [15:55] <hsivonen> annevk: it's also plausible that in some locale Firefox market share is low because of wrong encoding default
- # [15:55] <annevk> MikeSmith: I haven't really studied them, but vague recollection suggests they're not particular brilliant
- # [15:56] <Ms2ger> Maybe we should decode non-declared content with a random charset to encourage people to declare their stuff
- # [15:56] <annevk> hsivonen: I suspect Taiwan
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- # [15:57] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah don't seem like. I'd wonder what kinds of scripts would be using them and why
- # [15:57] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: or the replacement encoding :-)
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- # [15:58] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, fingerprinting
- # [15:58] <annevk> MikeSmith: presumably detecting if Flash works
- # [15:58] <Ms2ger> And https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/plugincheck/
- # [15:58] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: :)
- # [15:58] <MikeSmith> http://www.howtocreate.co.uk/wrongWithIE/?chapter=navigator.plugins
- # [15:58] * Parts: tommorris (~tom@wikimedia/Tom-Morris)
- # [15:58] <annevk> gsnedders: student project: https://twitter.com/hsivonen/status/306055125699551233 ;)
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- # [16:01] <jgraham> annevk: And there I was thinking that would be "seek out web developers that don't declare their content encodings and slap them"
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- # [16:05] <annevk> Not necessarily a bad idea
- # [16:05] <zewt> doesn't that mean having to slap the entire population of Japan
- # [16:06] <annevk> Nah, loads of pages there use utf-8 these days
- # [16:06] <jgraham> gsnedders: And this you *could* bill as travelling salesman
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- # [16:08] <Ms2ger> jgraham, do explain how you're going to bill that as tsp
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- # [16:08] <zewt> incidentally, if any developer i work with has the urge to have a server redirect to data:, i'm allowed to slap *him*, i hope
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- # [16:10] <jgraham> Ms2ger: I imagine you want to find an efficient route between all the people deserving of a slap
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- # [16:11] <zewt> really it's hard to blame regular joe authors missing charset declarations, when everything works for them without it :|
- # [16:11] <zewt> need to go back in time and slap whoever it was that made the encoding default to the locale
- # [16:12] <jgraham> zewt: If I really blamed them, I would suggest someone that could slap harder to undertake the project
- # [16:13] <annevk> zewt: another case I'm considering is a redirect to a blob URL
- # [16:13] <annevk> zewt: which has the potential to never work I suppose, depending on how that auto-revoking thing works
- # [16:14] <annevk> http://hg.mozilla.org/integration/mozilla-inbound/rev/e9e4dab21e79 teehee
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- # [16:31] <zewt> annevk: i'm sort of wondering if blob URLs should be implemented by binding to the blob at resolve time (or with a slightly higher-level resolve wrapper, like we talked about), then having fetch just grab the data from the bound blob
- # [16:31] <zewt> so they would actually *only* work for APIs that (in one way or another) cause the parsed url to be bound to the blob
- # [16:32] <annevk> it seems kinda silly that you wouldn't be able to pass the blob around though
- # [16:32] <zewt> though that would mean that weirder things like blob URLs in stylesheets probably wouldn't work (which they possibly shouldn't for autorevoking URLs, but probably should for explicit ones)
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- # [16:32] <zewt> (if only because afaik they do today)
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- # [16:32] <annevk> CSS has to work
- # [16:32] <annevk> it's the number one reason we have these as URLs to begin with
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- # [16:33] <annevk> I'm not convinced by that use case much, but sicking is
- # [16:34] <zewt> assigning to element.style.backgroundImage is reasonable, but saying style.textContent = ".foo { background-image: url(" + blobURL + ");"; would be terrible (that's the case that seems harder)
- # [16:34] <zewt> at least, hard for autorevoke (though I know little to nothing about css in the details, which makes everything look harder)
- # [16:35] <zewt> hmm, curious about the latter evil case, going to try a couple things...
- # [16:36] <annevk> even if you assign to backgroundImage you still have to wrap it in url() so you still invoke the CSS parser first
- # [16:36] <annevk> and again, the case sicking stressed was where you wouldn't have an API and indeed did the string building thing
- # [16:38] <SimonSapin> annevk: we had comment on CSS encoding detection: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0402.html
- # [16:38] <SimonSapin> "As a security precaution, UAs should skip steps 3 and 4 of the algorithm to determine the fallback encoding when the referring stylesheet or document is not _same-origin_ with the stylesheet. See <https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20886>."
- # [16:39] <SimonSapin> steps 3 and 4 being using link[charset] or the referring documen’s encoding
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- # [16:40] <annevk> SimonSapin: It's not entirely clear whether that is necessary yet
- # [16:40] <annevk> SimonSapin: hsivonen and to a lesser extent, I, are on the case
- # [16:41] <SimonSapin> annevk: good
- # [16:41] <zewt> annevk: the case i'm wondering about is where images defer image loads until a style actually matches
- # [16:41] <zewt> eg. div:hover { background-image } doesn't load the image in Chrome until you actually hover
- # [16:41] <zewt> i don't know if that's a style resolution thing (eg. they never even parse the background-image until something matches, which seems like a likely optimization) or something later
- # [16:42] <zewt> but i'm just wondering if it's specified what happens if a blob URL is valid when the style is set, but no longer exists when the style later matches
- # [16:43] <annevk> you have to parse background-image
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- # [16:43] <annevk> for CSSOM purposes but also e.g. if there's a later background-image declaration
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- # [16:44] <zewt> i mean, if nothing actually matches the selector, you don't care about the background-image until something does
- # [16:45] <zewt> https://zewt.org/~glenn/test-hover-blob-url.html <- if (and only if) you hover the div before the timeout happens, the image works (and keeps working forever)
- # [16:45] <zewt> (in chrome)
- # [16:46] <annevk> sure, but that doesn't mean the URL isn't parsed
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- # [16:46] <annevk> I think that more likely indicates the model where the content is not fetched
- # [16:47] <zewt> but that's the issue, really: blob URLs are dependent on when the fetch actually happens
- # [16:47] <zewt> same as the problem i mentioned on the list recently, with <img> updates that per spec can begin either sync or async
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- # [16:51] <annevk> Kind a troubling that none of the implementors seem to care much
- # [16:55] <zewt> annevk: was redirecting to a blob URL something you were thinking of as possibly useful, or just as something that needs to be defined
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- # [16:57] <annevk> latter
- # [16:58] <annevk> in particular, I wonder if we should just do what Chrome does, which is to only allow redirecting to http/https
- # [16:58] <annevk> or if it should be more broad, where you could redirect to about/blob/data/ftp too
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- # [16:58] <gsnedders> What, HTTP redirects, or what are we talking about?
- # [16:58] <annevk> are there other redirects?
- # [16:59] <gsnedders> meta?
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- # [16:59] <annevk> <meta> navigates I think, so it's not quite the same
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- # [17:01] <gsnedders> annevk: There's certainly a security argument for Opera's behaviour of not allowing redirects from public network to private networks.
- # [17:01] <zewt> i don't think navigating to blob urls is meant to be allowed, redirecting say images is weird but I suppose it doesn't matter if it works (as long as the cause is well-defined)
- # [17:01] <gsnedders> e.g., from the internet to my local network
- # [17:02] <annevk> without Yngve, I wonder if that survives when Opera's engine is Chromium
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- # [17:02] <gsnedders> zewt: I don't like the idea of navigating to blob URLs, just as principle.
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- # [17:02] <SimonSapin> what’s a blob URL?
- # [17:03] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: One referring to a Blob object.
- # [17:03] <jgraham> What's a principle?
- # [17:03] <annevk> What's a jgraham?
- # [17:03] <annevk> Pretty sure the answer is 17
- # [17:03] <jgraham> So
- # [17:03] <gsnedders> Nah, my dice roll was 4.
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- # [17:04] <jgraham> I'm not sure why you couldn't navigate to a blob URL really. I mean if img.src = blob_url works, why wouldn't it for iframe?
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- # [17:06] <zewt> gsnedders: pretty sure it's meant to not work, but I don't know off-hand what stops it
- # [17:08] <gsnedders> jgraham: It just seems like it should make it harder to GC blobs
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- # [17:10] <jgraham> gsnedders: Is it any harder than what we have currently with document.open?
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- # [17:11] <gsnedders> I don't know, it's not Old Norse. I don't have it swapped in.
- # [17:11] <gsnedders> And I don't know where I left my web platform page files.
- # [17:12] <zewt> gsnedders: blob URLs are revoked during "unloading document cleanup steps", though I don't know whether that happens early enough to prevent navigation to it
- # [17:12] <jgraham> I don't realy have web platform swapped in either :(
- # [17:12] <zewt> (no idea about navigating an iframe)
- # [17:13] <gsnedders> An iframe problabbly isn't that bad. window.open is probably the evil case, though.
- # [17:13] <gsnedders> As then it can outlive the parent.
- # [17:13] <zewt> yeah.
- # [17:13] <jgraham> Or location.href
- # [17:13] <zewt> and navigating the same context (^)
- # [17:13] <gsnedders> jgraham: But navigating allows discarding the old context, right?
- # [17:14] <gsnedders> jgraham: Or you mean to a blob?
- # [17:14] <jgraham> gsnedders: I mean to a blob
- # [17:14] <gsnedders> I think this is why I think it shouldn't be allowed.
- # [17:14] <gsnedders> But we already have to allow it for img, don't we?
- # [17:14] <gsnedders> And I don't really want to introduce inconsistency.
- # [17:15] <zewt> well, putting blob URLs in <img> is the #1 use for it
- # [17:15] <zewt> do you mean server redirects to a blob: url in <img>?
- # [17:16] <gsnedders> I think that's definitely bad, as that's going from public network to some per-machine.
- # [17:16] <zewt> i don't think it's definitely bad, i just think it's useless and it should do whatever's easiest
- # [17:17] <jgraham> zewt: "After creating the Document object, but before any script execution, certainly before the parser stops, the user agent must update the session history with the new page." Updating the session history calls "unload"
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- # [17:17] <jgraham> Which calls "unloading document cleanup steps"
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- # [17:17] <jgraham> So it seems like the blob should start loading
- # [17:17] <zewt> jgraham: but that's still after the new document ahs been fetched
- # [17:17] <jgraham> and then be revoked half-way thorugh
- # [17:18] <zewt> revoking a URL definitely shouldn't cause halfway-done fetches to fail
- # [17:18] <zewt> (that's exposing async behavior)
- # [17:18] <jgraham> Well it's pretty clear this part of the spec didn't account for the idea of revokable urls
- # [17:19] <zewt> sure, there's a lot of that I think
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- # [17:19] <annevk> I also wonder how navigate accounts for a sequence of redirects
- # [17:20] <jgraham> I think the whole idea is very unsound and is likely to lead to interop failures
- # [17:20] <jgraham> Because each implementation will do whatever's easy and by the time we fix all the plumbing in the spec, the web will depend on specific, hard to spec/implement (in other engines) behaviour
- # [17:21] <annevk> No shit
- # [17:21] <jgraham> Well, not everything's like that
- # [17:22] <jgraham> But this seems to be taking something that is a fairly low-level assumption and ripping it up
- # [17:23] <jgraham> (of course there are other cases where urls can just stop working, but those are typically error conditions, not part of the required behaviour)
- # [17:25] <gsnedders> The big problem is that you have URLs that are very short temporarily. I'd rather never have introduced such URLs. :(
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- # [17:25] <annevk> Yeah, where was everyone when I argued that position on the list?
- # [17:26] <gsnedders> Feeling like I didn't have the time to follow what mailing lists I was already on? :)
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- # [17:26] <jgraham> annevk: Dunno, when was this?
- # [17:26] <annevk> Year ago or so
- # [17:27] <zewt> i don't think blob URLs are necessarily a mistake (though there are a lot of loose ends); but non-auto-revoking ones were
- # [17:27] <zewt> putting manual resource management into a language and platform entirely designed for automatic resource management is a bit hopeless
- # [17:29] <annevk> We should have started out with object-only. Assigning blob objects to img.src. And then expand from there
- # [17:31] <jgraham> annevk: Agreed, but looking back, it seems the reason I didn't say anything was that the argument was about CSSOM
- # [17:32] <jgraham> And I didn't think clearly enough about how bad this kind of url would be
- # [17:32] <annevk> I would have argued harder if my foresight would've been better.
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- # [17:34] <gsnedders> Damn it, annevk! I thought we had a clairvoyant!
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- # [17:35] <annevk> The future is now, but tomorrow is designed via handwavery and uneducated guesses
- # [17:35] <zewt> i don't think it's that bad, or that there are problems that hard to solve (or even any problems that we don't seem to already have solutions for, though I don't know about the CSS details)
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- # [17:46] <annevk> Hmm, I wonder if there's some way in which HTML can change so it doesn't need the manual redirect flag
- # [17:46] <annevk> In navigate
- # [17:46] <marcosc> LOL: Well you know, software is hard. Let's go shopping!
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- # [17:54] <annevk> Maybe the answer to "manual redirect flag" is to use basic_fetch...
- # [17:54] <annevk> Meh
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- # [18:26] <annevk> zewt: so I did notice CORS has some slightly different behavior between user abort and network errors around preflight caches
- # [18:26] <annevk> zewt: see the Fetch wiki page algorithms if you don't want to read CORS
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- # [18:29] <annevk> I'm loving the wiki page algorithms myself. So much better than the spec
- # [18:29] <annevk> But then I think the consensus was that CORS was a terrible spec
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- # [18:37] <cwilso> annevk: Aren't all specs terrible in retrospect?
- # [18:38] <annevk> cwilso: some are better than others, maybe? But I guess it's like with code. When you look at what you did a year ago, you don't like it anymore...
- # [18:39] <annevk> Having said that, I'm still relatively pleased with the DOM Standard and the Encoding Standard
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- # [18:40] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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- # [18:40] * GPHemsley wonders what the surprise about Welsh is. It's the most commonly-spoken of the 6 Celtic languages, 2 of which went extinct.
- # [18:41] <cwilso> Good morning dglazkov!
- # [18:42] <annevk> So hey, can someone explain why XHR has two states for the same thing? (HEADERS_RECEIVED and LOADING)
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- # [18:43] * GPHemsley recalls complaining about the lack of a DOM0 spec, too.
- # [18:44] <annevk> DOM0 is specced
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- # [18:57] <Hixie> annevk: i said no api changes :-P
- # [18:58] <Hixie> annevk: the manual redirect flag is fine :-P
- # [18:58] <annevk> Hixie: I will write you a patch if it comes to that
- # [18:58] <Hixie> nooooooooo
- # [18:59] <Hixie> then i won't understand what's going on anymore
- # [18:59] <Hixie> it's not writing the patch that takes my time up
- # [18:59] <Hixie> it's understanding it and reviewing it
- # [18:59] <annevk> Hixie: fair enough
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- # [19:00] <annevk> So there will be some changes as I want to have a single CORS algorithm rather than a couple and I want to change/obsolete "No CORS"
- # [19:00] <Hixie> why?
- # [19:00] <annevk> A single fetch algorithm, sorry...
- # [19:00] <Hixie> i mean why for the "no cors" thing
- # [19:01] <GPHemsley> How do people handle being subscribed to both whatwg and www-style? Don't you drown in e-mail?
- # [19:01] <Hixie> but why for the other thing too for that matter
- # [19:01] <annevk> So we want to do <script src=http://cross-origin.example/></script> and use the script and if CORS happened to be used we can also report errors, but we don't require opt-in on the requesting side
- # [19:01] <annevk> That sort of requires a single fetch algorithm and the result will be either tainted or not
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- # [19:02] <Hixie> you can't do that
- # [19:02] <Hixie> sites break if you include Origin headers unexpectedly
- # [19:02] <Hixie> that's why we have the crossorigin attribute in the first place
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- # [19:02] <annevk> o_O
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- # [19:03] <annevk> I thought the Origin header was included for a bunch of requests to aid with XSS-protection?
- # [19:03] <Hixie> only the ones where it's ok to do so
- # [19:04] <Hixie> we're very careful about defining which that happens for
- # [19:04] <annevk> Is that only CORS and navigation or some such?
- # [19:05] <Hixie> off-hand i do not recall
- # [19:05] <Hixie> every mention of fetch either specifies on Origin or doesn't send one
- # [19:05] <annevk> So I guess we need a mode for <script crossorigin> then that says to fetch the resource using CORS and have it tainted if there's no opt-in, but apply it anyway...
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- # [19:07] <Hixie> we have that already
- # [19:07] <Hixie> it's what the spec says :-)
- # [19:07] <Hixie> i really don't want to touch any of the call sites here
- # [19:07] <Hixie> we should keep the api exactly the same
- # [19:08] <Hixie> we don't advance the web by repeatedly changing how we describe things
- # [19:08] <annevk> Hixie: we don't have that already
- # [19:08] <annevk> Hixie: mode is either anonymous or use-credentials if you specify crossorigin=""
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- # [19:08] <Hixie> right
- # [19:08] <annevk> Hixie: and that results in either success or a network error
- # [19:08] <Hixie> right
- # [19:09] <Hixie> oh wait, you mean to have it not be a network error even though the cors stuff was denied?
- # [19:09] <Hixie> why would we do that?
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- # [19:10] <annevk> Hixie: you don't always know if the script you're including has opted in or not and you might not care
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- # [19:10] <Hixie> if you're not debugging it, you don't care anyway, just don't bother setting the attribute
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- # [19:11] <annevk> Hixie: crossorigin also has the side effect of not including credentials which can be nice
- # [19:11] <Hixie> *shrug*
- # [19:11] <annevk> I'm just channeling repeated requests here
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- # [19:12] <Hixie> oh. i haven't seen these requests. what are the use cases?
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- # [19:13] <annevk> I think it's basically easy of development. It would be nice to get better debugging, but if it's not there you still want scripts to run and you don't know in advance
- # [19:14] <annevk> And with large sites with scripts being run on several independent CDNs headers might not be accurate all the time but you still want the site to function even if debugging the end user's setup becomes more complicated because some script comes with the wrong set of headers
- # [19:15] <Hixie> if it's purely debugging, we should probably just have the debuggers enable a mode where they report exceptions ignoring origin
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- # [19:16] <Hixie> the use cases for <script crossorigin> were about needing to get crash data from deployed stuff, essentially, and for those you can just go and make sure the scripts you care about are setting the cors headers.
- # [19:16] <annevk> That doesn't address the case of catching errors on the end user's machine using window.onerror and sending those back to the mothership
- # [19:16] <annevk> I just explained why that's not always the case in more complicated setups, as was explained to me.
- # [19:17] <Hixie> i wouldn't recommend paying a cdn that can't even get its cors headers straight
- # [19:17] <Hixie> but ok
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- # [19:18] <Hixie> anyway, sure, we can change things for <script>
- # [19:18] <Hixie> let's do that separate from the fetch/cors merge though :-)
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- # [19:20] <annevk> Yeah okay, I'll pull that stuff out and align a bit more with the HTML infrastructure as apparently there's more justification than I thought.
- # [19:20] <Hixie> heh
- # [19:20] <annevk> I forgot I argued that when crossorigin got added and then someone explained it to me.
- # [19:21] <Hixie> i know that for <img> chrome guys actually ran into high profile sites that broke, at least
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- # [19:32] <TabAtkins> GPHemsley: I survive by spending at least 4 hours of each day reading and responding to email.
- # [19:32] <TabAtkins> Also: doing email during the weekend. And at night. And in the morning before I go to work.
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- # [19:32] <Hixie> and also while working
- # [19:33] <TabAtkins> Sometimes, yes.
- # [19:33] <TabAtkins> If I can't avoid it.
- # [19:33] * Hixie can't avoid it :-(
- # [19:33] <Hixie> i just spontaneously look at my e-mail half-way through a sentence
- # [19:33] <Hixie> it's terrible
- # [19:33] <TabAtkins> I have the same problem, except for me it's email *and* Twitter.
- # [19:33] <Hixie> also, by ruthlessly filtering and scanning subject lines
- # [19:33] <Hixie> man, twitter also?
- # [19:33] <Hixie> :-/
- # [19:33] <GPHemsley> Growl helps with Twitter
- # [19:34] <TabAtkins> ::closes twitter:: ::returns to writing a paragraph of spec text:: ::15 seconds later, opens twitter again::
- # [19:34] <GPHemsley> ah
- # [19:34] <GPHemsley> if you have a Twitter app with Growl notifications, you won't have to actively monitor Twitter
- # [19:34] <Hixie> checking my e-mail for me while editing is ^P ^P
- # [19:34] <Hixie> which i do far too much
- # [19:34] <GPHemsley> (the same probably goes for e-mail, but I don't have that)
- # [19:34] <GPHemsley> Cmd+Tab is used a lot :)
- # [19:35] <Hixie> and checking irc is just hitting the tidle key
- # [19:35] <Hixie> uh, sorry, not tilde. vertical bar.
- # [19:36] <Hixie> ok, time to head to work to read more e-mail
- # [19:39] <annevk> time to stop reading www-tag
- # [19:39] <GPHemsley> hmm... does anybody ever look at this page?
- # [19:39] <GPHemsley> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/summary
- # [19:39] <GPHemsley> clearly some template recursion going on somewhere
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- # [19:42] <SimonSapin> GPHemsley: I only ever use https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/ and https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/shortlog
- # [19:42] <TabAtkins> I've never even seen that page.
- # [19:42] <GPHemsley> Heh
- # [19:43] <GPHemsley> just click the "csswg" link at the top of the page
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- # [19:43] <GPHemsley> fairly obvious to navigate to :P
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- # [19:46] <annevk> Would it be bad if I expired http://webforms2.org/ ?
- # [19:47] * annevk doesn't like obsoleting URLs
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- # [19:51] <GPHemsley> AFAICT, it was never even used for anything.
- # [19:52] <GPHemsley> http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://webforms2.org/*
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- # [19:53] <annevk> It's used for what I use it for. A page in memory of Web Forms 2.0. That's it :-)
- # [19:54] <annevk> The question is whether I want to keep paying 5-10 bucks a year for that.
- # [19:54] <GPHemsley> But before that, it wasn't anything either.
- # [19:54] <GPHemsley> So, yeah, IDK that it's worth it.
- # [19:54] <GPHemsley> But it's your money :)
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- # [19:57] <wilhelm> annevk: I'm doing some spring cleaning too. I registered html5.no in 2007, but never used it for anything.
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- # [20:15] <miketaylr> wilhelm: html5.no sounds like a great site for naysayers :)
- # [20:15] <Ms2ger> HTML5?
- # [20:15] <miketaylr> NO
- # [20:15] <Ms2ger> [Grumpy cat]
- # [20:15] <Ms2ger> NO
- # [20:15] <miketaylr> :))
- # [20:15] <Ms2ger> Someone make that
- # [20:16] <wilhelm> ... This is a great idea.
- # [20:17] <annevk> I've tentatively canceled webforms2.org. Let me know if you want it or think I should keep it.
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- # [20:36] <jgraham> Funny things the W3C does #539: Ask testsuite submitters "do you think that the testsuite derived from the intersection of the tests you wrote and the tests that your implementation passes is good enough to demonstrate interop?"
- # [20:36] <jgraham> I wouldn't care if good testsuites weren't so important
- # [20:37] <jgraham> And it wasn't *even*harder* to get people to contibute with no process carrot
- # [20:37] <jgraham> (need to fix that somehow)
- # [20:38] * odinho like carrots
- # [20:38] <Hixie> wait, what?
- # [20:38] <Hixie> jgraham: please tell me you're kidding?
- # [20:38] <Ms2ger> Well, that's just MS
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- # [20:39] <jgraham> Hixie: Well they don't *say* the bit about "only the tests that pass"
- # [20:39] <jgraham> That bit is implied by people being bad at releasing tests they fail
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- # [20:41] <Hixie> ah
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- # [21:29] <Hixie> well -. is a pain
- # [21:29] <Hixie> have to lookahead twice
- # [21:30] <Hixie> oh i guess that's ok
- # [21:30] <Hixie> nevermind
- # [21:30] <Hixie> la la la
- # [21:30] <GPHemsley> is there a master list of CSS properties?
- # [21:31] <GPHemsley> (and which spec they're defined in)
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- # [21:32] <GPHemsley> oh, I guess MDN will be an OK substitute
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- # [21:51] <GPHemsley> hmm... Opera's gonna lose a lot of functionality when it switches to WebKit...
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- # [21:57] <karlcow> GPHemsley: such as?
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- # [21:57] <GPHemsley> I'm not keeping a list; it was just a passing remark based on caniuse.com
- # [21:57] <GPHemsley> looks like one may be feature queries
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- # [21:58] <GPHemsley> hmm, maybe "a lot" was hyperbolic
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- # [22:01] <karlcow> ah yes from the point of view of specs implementation, there will be gain and loss
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- # [22:15] <esprehn_> hem when is anne when I need him :/
- # [22:15] <esprehn_> hrm*
- # [22:29] <dglazkov> esprehn_: asleep at the wheel
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- # [22:31] <dglazkov> aha!
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- # [22:33] <annevk> esprehn_: I have returned, though briefly
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- # [22:37] <esprehn_> annevk: why does xhr.response return null for ArrayBuffer and Blob when state is LOADING?
- # [22:37] <esprehn_> why not return a partial data in an ArrayBuffer
- # [22:37] <esprehn_> annevk: we had a team ask for it to support streaming binary data, thinking us returning null was a bug (but the spec is clear here)
- # [22:38] <annevk> esprehn_: Blob has synchronous size attribute
- # [22:39] <GPHemsley> Argh, the validators have not been updated to include <main>?
- # [22:39] <annevk> esprehn_: dunno how it would work with ArrayBuffer, I guess you'd have to return a new one each time?
- # [22:39] <GPHemsley> (Which wouldn't be so bad, except "(Suppressing further errors from this subtree.)")
- # [22:39] <esprehn_> annevk: yeah, same thing with Blob
- # [22:40] <annevk> esprehn_: I suppose even with synchronous size we could still expose it, it would just expose what's available thus far...
- # [22:40] <esprehn_> annevk: exactly, we have the knowledge in Webkit, but we do if (m_state != DONE) return 0
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- # [22:40] <annevk> esprehn_: if that's cheap in implementations we could do it I suppose pending agreement from Gecko / IE
- # [22:40] <annevk> (one of those being sufficient for me)
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- # [22:44] <annevk> esprehn_: http://xhr.spec.whatwg.org/ file a bug maybe? I can ask someone from Mozilla to comment
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- # [22:50] <esprehn_> annevk: okay
- # [22:51] <annevk> smaug____: yt?
- # [22:51] <smaug____> annevk: yup
- # [22:51] <annevk> smaug____: do you think we should expose ArrayBuffer / Blob during XHR.LOADING as new objects each time you get .response?
- # [22:51] <annevk> smaug____: reflecting whatever is loaded thus far
- # [22:52] <smaug____> hmm, what do we do now?
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- # [22:52] <annevk> smaug____: we return null
- # [22:53] <smaug____> good
- # [22:53] <smaug____> I think that is good behavior
- # [22:53] <smaug____> less error prone
- # [22:53] <annevk> smaug____: so esprehn_ is asking for incremental data
- # [22:54] <smaug____> we need chunked data for the other case?
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- # [22:54] <annevk> I guess there's chunked and also Stream too
- # [22:54] <smaug____> I'm worried that people end up accessing .response all the time and create tons of memory garbage by accident
- # [22:55] <annevk> with the spec only acknowledging "stream" as sicking thought chunked was obsoleted by that
- # [22:55] <smaug____> if we create new ArrayBuffer/Blob all the time
- # [22:55] <annevk> k
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- # [22:56] <annevk> smaug____: well Blob / ArrayBuffer are readonly so they could point to the same data all those times...
- # [22:56] <smaug____> I thought truly new objects
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- # [22:58] <smaug____> annevk: why wouldn't you then return the same Blob all the time?
- # [22:58] * smaug____ must be missing something here
- # [22:58] <annevk> smaug____: because Blob's are immutable
- # [22:58] <annevk> afaik
- # [22:58] <annevk> .size is supposed to be fixed
- # [22:59] <smaug____> oh, the earlier Blobs would refer only to some parts of the data.
- # [22:59] <smaug____> right
- # [22:59] <smaug____> hmm, what if such Blob is transfered to a worker
- # [22:59] <smaug____> or something like that
- # [23:00] <annevk> you'd have a growing buffer, but the blob's size restricts what it can access from that buffer
- # [23:00] <annevk> doesn't matter where it goes I'd think
- # [23:00] <annevk> but maybe this case is better addressed via the Stream API
- # [23:02] <smaug____> implementation might just get tricky if same data could be accessed on multiple threads
- # [23:05] <annevk> smaug____: btw, another question
- # [23:05] <annevk> smaug____: once you hit HEADERS_RECEIVED, you also hit LOADING right?
- # [23:06] <annevk> smaug____: there's not really any meaningful distinction between the two :(
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- # [23:06] <annevk> smaug____: so little distinction in fact that the transition is prolly done on a single networking task
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- # [23:07] <smaug____> so HEADERS_RECEIVED happens before LOADING
- # [23:08] <smaug____> I guess you could abort when you get headers
- # [23:08] <smaug____> if you just want to check existence of some resource
- # [23:08] <annevk> the thing is, LOADING starts when the headers are received
- # [23:09] <annevk> you hit CRLF CRLF in the stream, you know HEADERS_RECEIVED is true, you know LOADING starts
- # [23:09] <smaug____> right
- # [23:09] <annevk> and likely your buffer contains something more like CR LF CR LF XX XX XX
- # [23:09] <annevk> so you know you have to switch straight away
- # [23:10] <annevk> I never quite realized that before
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- # [23:16] <annevk> so XHR does not expose state for when fetching starts (send() is invoked) and has two states for when headers are received and two states for when the object is uninitialized
- # [23:16] <annevk> great stuff
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- # [23:25] <dgorbik> Hixie: hello! One small question about webvtt: "properties corresponding to the 'background' shorthand must be applied to the WebVTT cue background box rather than the List of WebVTT Node Objects." Why can't we apply all properties to cue background box?
- # [23:27] <Hixie> so long as there's no difference, doesn't matter
- # [23:28] <scott_gonzalez> Hixie: If an element that is currently not visible becomes visible directly under the cursor, do you think mouseover should be fired for that element?
- # [23:28] <dgorbik> Hixie: thanks
- # [23:28] <scott_gonzalez> Here's a page showing what I mean: http://dev-test.code.dev/behavior/mouseover-when-element-is-shown.html
- # [23:28] <Hixie> scott_gonzalez: dunno, there's no spec for mouseover as far as i know
- # [23:30] <scott_gonzalez> Hixie: Ok, that's what smaug____ thought you would say.
- # [23:30] <Hixie> heh
- # [23:30] <scott_gonzalez> So there's nowhere to get this standardized? Just talk to the browser vendors individually?
- # [23:30] <Hixie> lots of places to get it standardised, just noone doing it
- # [23:31] <scott_gonzalez> Well, would it be a new spec or added to an existing spec?
- # [23:31] <Hixie> depends if the person whom you find to spec it has a spec alreayd or not
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- # [23:32] * Hixie is of the opinion that there should be as many specs as editors, and only because it's bad to have multiple editors per spec
- # [23:32] <Hixie> (otherwise i'd say we should just have one spec, total, for the entire web platform)
- # [23:34] <scott_gonzalez> That brings me to the obvious next question: Would you spec it?
- # [23:34] <Hixie> i'd love to
- # [23:34] <Hixie> but i'm oversubscribed currently
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- # [23:37] <scott_gonzalez> Ok, I'll start with browser vendors.
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- # Session Close: Tue Feb 26 00:00:00 2013
The end :)