/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-03-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Mar 06 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  14. # [00:24] <Hixie> ojan: e4h is just javascript
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  16. # [00:25] <Hixie> ojan: i dunno that i'd want to use JS as a data exchange format
  17. # [00:26] <Hixie> ojan: and i'm 100% sure it can't roundtrip everything in the DOM (e.g. you can't roundtrip the current <canvas> state)
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  19. # [00:26] <Hixie> (using e4h)
  20. # [00:27] <Hixie> ojan: (re e4h, if there's anything i can do to help you get it implemented, let me know)
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  27. # [00:37] <ojan> Hixie: the thing to do is to get other browser vendors vaguely positive about it. if we could get Mozilla to voice support for it, that'd be enough for me to feel comfortable shipping it in Chrome...
  28. # [00:37] <ojan> Hixie: i plan to start another thread on public-script-coord
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  30. # [00:37] <ojan> Hixie: please chime in if i leaving anything important out.
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  33. # [00:40] <Hixie> roger
  34. # [00:40] <Hixie> you got the link to the spec?
  35. # [00:40] <Hixie> ("spec")
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  37. # [00:40] <JonathanNeal> has anyone here written up (or knows of) a good article on navigation markup, including sub-navigation, recommended class names, aria, etc?
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  39. # [00:41] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: what do you mean by "navigation markup"?
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  41. # [00:41] <JonathanNeal> Just, someone demonstrating best practices, including their own opinion on what roles to throw in even.
  42. # [00:41] <JonathanNeal> For instance, there are times when you can use classnames that are sympathetic with aria roles.
  43. # [00:42] <JonathanNeal> Or, you could look at a large group of websites, and arrive at a general consensus (or a few consensuses) of what markup people prefer.
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  45. # [00:45] <ronaldmansveld> I don't know about an article, but my gut tells me that currently a nav with an ul, where li's contain the anchors is considered the way to go. (Just a gut-feeling, no proof for this)
  46. # [00:45] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: that seems to be what you mean by "article", not what you mean by "navigation markup" :-)
  47. # [00:45] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: do you mean like the links on the side of a page that get you to the home page or whatever?
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  50. # [00:46] <JonathanNeal> the html markup of a navigation list, where some items may themselves contain sub-navigation lists.
  51. # [00:48] <Hixie> i would recommend using <a href="...url...">...label...</a> for the links, and either <p> or <ul><li> for the markup around it
  52. # [00:48] <Hixie> no need for any other attributes
  53. # [00:48] <ronaldmansveld> BTW Hixie: may I compliment you on the readability of the specs you produce
  54. # [00:48] <Hixie> ronaldmansveld: thank you sir
  55. # [00:49] <Hixie> though i fear if you find my specs readable you may have just not read much of them :-)
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  57. # [00:49] <ronaldmansveld> I'm currently plowing through the ECMAScript 5 spec, but in comparison that feels like being forcefed a box of dry biscuits, and then be told to whistle :P
  58. # [00:50] <JonathanNeal> Hixie: something deeper, that covers the situation where an item in the navigation list is also the current page.
  59. # [00:50] <Hixie> ronaldmansveld: ah well i will definitely agree that my specs tend to be more entertaining :-)
  60. # [00:51] <Hixie> especially if you read the examples :-)
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  62. # [00:51] <ronaldmansveld> Hixie: absolutely :)
  63. # [00:51] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: i'd either just link to the current page and not worry about it, or use <a>...label...</a> and style using :not([href])
  64. # [00:52] <Hixie> ronaldmansveld: i'm glad to hear somebody appreciates it. i actually just do it to alleviate my own boredom. :-)
  65. # [00:52] <ronaldmansveld> JonathanNeal: I'm pretty sure links to the current page in most case get a class="active". Maybe in some cases the anchor gets replaced by a span as well
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  68. # [00:53] <Hixie> replacing the <a> by a <span> is an equally valid solution, though maybe more complicated than necessary
  69. # [00:54] <JonathanNeal> Hixie, ronaldmansveld, I wasn't sure if either "current" or "active" had more meaning, or what to call it if a link is for a parent page which contains the current page.
  70. # [00:54] <Hixie> using a class is almost certainly more complicated than necessary
  71. # [00:54] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: well, technically, class names are opaque. You could use class=green or class='***' and it'd be no less reasonable, per the spec.
  72. # [00:54] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: for links to parent pages, i would recommend rel="up", for grandparent pages, rel="up up", etc
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  74. # [00:55] <ronaldmansveld> Hixie: I haven't tried writing specs myself (unless you count functional designs as specs), but I'm sure it's a tough job, where we (as a community) don't show enough appreciation for
  75. # [00:55] * Quits: nimbu (~nimbu@sjfw1-a.adobe.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
  76. # [00:55] <JonathanNeal> Oh, I thought rel="up" and such were dropped.
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  79. # [00:56] <ronaldmansveld> JonathanNeal: classes don't contain meaning, apart from the meaning for the author of the code ;)
  80. # [00:56] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: they were dropped by the w3c, but i expect i'll bring them back when i get around to shaking up how the rel values are handled in the spec
  81. # [00:56] <JonathanNeal> ronaldmansveld: i understand, which is why i mentioned using classnames that are sympathetic with other known standards.
  82. # [00:56] <ronaldmansveld> Hixie: if you can decide (usually serverside) if a link should get a class 'active', it's equally easy to decide to use a span instead
  83. # [00:57] <JonathanNeal> For example, ARIA or Microformats.
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  85. # [00:57] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: in the meantime you could always just register them in the wiki
  86. # [00:57] <JonathanNeal> ronaldmansveld: is that how you would do it in a <template>?
  87. # [00:57] <Hixie> ronaldmansveld: depends on your templating language, but sure
  88. # [00:58] <ronaldmansveld> JonathanNeal: As far as I know, no good spec will use classnames to base actions upon (at least in my opinion) (and yes, CSS is the only exception to the rule :P)
  89. # [00:58] <ronaldmansveld> JonathanNeal: if you refer to the html <template>: I wouldn't know, I haven't had time to read up on that
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  93. # [01:02] <ronaldmansveld> JonathanNeal: ARIA and microformats both use their own attributes. aria is prepended with 'aria-', microformats depend on the format your using
  94. # [01:02] <ronaldmansveld> JonathanNeal: Schema.org for instance uses itemscope, itemtype and itemprop (apart from meta-tags)
  95. # [01:02] <tantek> microformats pretty consistently use the class attribute
  96. # [01:02] <tantek> sometimes rel for page to page relationship things
  97. # [01:02] <ronaldmansveld> microformats that use the class-attribute? o_0
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  99. # [01:03] <tantek> always have
  100. # [01:03] <Hixie> ronaldmansveld: you may be confusing microformats with microdata
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  102. # [01:03] <ronaldmansveld> Hixie: thanks! Indeed
  103. # [01:03] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/ for more
  104. # [01:03] <Hixie> microdata is an HTML feature that uses item* attributes, microformats long predates microdata and is a way of using other HTML features for semantics to mark up similar things
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  106. # [01:04] <Hixie> previously microformats was less generic than microdata, though more recently that's changed (right tantek? i'm not up to date on this)
  107. # [01:05] <ronaldmansveld> tantek: thanks! I'm gonna read up on it :)
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  111. # [01:10] <tantek> Hixie, yes, microformats2 has syntax independent of vocabulary
  112. # [01:10] <MikeSmith> jpwhiting: here now
  113. # [01:10] <tantek> I'm not sure about all the weird RDFa-y features that got shoehorned into microdata.
  114. # [01:11] <tantek> in terms of being "generic"
  115. # [01:11] <ronaldmansveld> Will microformats and microdata both be here to stay?
  116. # [01:11] <jpwhiting> MikeSmith: any idea how I can make my local validator.nu always use my schema?
  117. # [01:11] <ronaldmansveld> cause a quick read/glance at the wiki gives quite the feeling that they're both trying to achieve the same
  118. # [01:11] <jpwhiting> or at least make it the default if no schema is specified
  119. # [01:11] <tantek> ronaldmansveld - given that web developers use the class attribute to markup semantics before microformats, and it's on billions of pages already, it's likely to be around a while.
  120. # [01:12] <tantek> with search engines supporting both, they're likely to be around a while
  121. # [01:12] <ronaldmansveld> tantek: fair enough, but this feels like we have two standards coming up, where only one could (and should) be sufficient
  122. # [01:12] <tantek> ronaldmansveld - actually, three standards, when you include RDFa, which predates microdata.
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  124. # [01:13] <ronaldmansveld> tantek: I say overkill... it's like having 3 different specs for HTML, all trying to do the same in a slightly different way
  125. # [01:14] <tantek> ronaldmansveld, it's a long story, but in short, microformats solved a bunch of 80/20 use-cases, but was limited. RDFa was totally generic, but much harder to use. microdata reimplemented a simplified version of some 90%+ of the features of RDFa. microformats evolved to become generic.
  126. # [01:15] <MikeSmith> jpwhiting: that logic is in VerifierServletTransaction.java in the presets file
  127. # [01:15] * MikeSmith takes a look
  128. # [01:15] <yroc> Hixie: What does it mean to say that an <article> is a composition on a site (not just a document)? I'm interpreting "site" as multiple pages, but I don't see how that would work.
  129. # [01:15] <tantek> ronaldmansveld, I'd say try out both microformats and microdata and see what it feels like to write in your HTML. whichever one seems to work better for you, go ahead and use it and feel free to provide feedback.
  130. # [01:15] <tantek> also - if you have any microformats specific questions, feel free to /join #microformats
  131. # [01:16] <tantek> a lot of this stuff is still evolving, and we're still figuring out better ways of doing things.
  132. # [01:16] <ronaldmansveld> tantek: I will :) So far my experience with microdata is pretty good, but I'm sure to give microformats a try as well, and yes, feedback (if any) will be provided
  133. # [01:16] <Hixie> yroc: i don't understand the question
  134. # [01:17] <tantek> thanks ronaldmansveld - appreciated!
  135. # [01:17] <Hixie> re microformats and microdata, the most important thing to worry about when picking one or the other is to pick the one that your processing software will parse :-)
  136. # [01:17] <yroc> Hixie: Referring to the defn 4.4.2, "The article element represents a complete, or self-contained, composition in a document, page, application, or site..."
  137. # [01:17] <Hixie> using microdata when your software only reads microformats will just waste your time, e.g.
  138. # [01:17] <MikeSmith> jpwhiting: in the presets.txt file, you'll notice that there are integers before the name of the presets. Give your schema the number 3 if it's a HTML schema, and 7 if it's an XHTML schema
  139. # [01:17] <tantek> Hixie - and that your teams can maintain over time (#1 cause of data failure overtime in these things)
  140. # [01:18] <MikeSmith> jpwhiting: and just remove the rest of the presets
  141. # [01:18] <jpwhiting> MikeSmith: ah, magic numbers?
  142. # [01:18] <Hixie> tantek: i mean, if your processing software supports both, then sure, that's a fine thing to pick as a tie breaker, but if your processing sotware only supports microformats, doesn't make much sense to use something else
  143. # [01:18] <MikeSmith> yeah
  144. # [01:18] <jpwhiting> then if I just submit a file to the service it still does autodetect, though, no?
  145. # [01:18] <Hixie> yroc: yes?
  146. # [01:19] <Hixie> yroc: sorry, i don't mean to be obtuse, i just don't understand your question
  147. # [01:19] <jpwhiting> though I set mine to 1 and removed the others, didn't realize the significance of those numbers
  148. # [01:19] <yroc> Hixie: LOL. What does it mean to say that the composition is on a "site" as opposed to a page?
  149. # [01:19] <tantek> Hixie, I guess. Though it used to be that search engines supported meta keywords, and nothing supported microformats - yet that changed once publishers started publishing meta keywords.
  150. # [01:19] <jpwhiting> MikeSmith: /me changes to 3 and tries
  151. # [01:20] <yroc> you're not obtuse. Compared to me you're a genius!
  152. # [01:20] <Hixie> yroc: well a "site", generally speaking, is a set of pages, right?
  153. # [01:20] <Hixie> like, cnn.com is a site with many pages
  154. # [01:21] <Hixie> but you can also make a "site" that is actually just one HTML file
  155. # [01:21] <yroc> Hixie: Right. But how can an article be on multiple pages? Or am I reading it wrong?
  156. # [01:21] <Hixie> with many "pages"
  157. # [01:21] <yroc> Hixie: Pls explain.
  158. # [01:21] <Hixie> like, twitter.com
  159. # [01:21] <Hixie> or plus.google.com
  160. # [01:22] <Hixie> it's basically one HTML file; as you navigate the "site", it loads differnet "pages" dynamically, but there's no actual navigation going on typically
  161. # [01:22] <Hixie> the URL changes only because of pushState() or using fragment identifiers
  162. # [01:22] <Hixie> so the spec is just saying that it's fine to use <article> for e.g. the posts on plus.google.com
  163. # [01:22] <jpwhiting> MikeSmith: awesome, works like a charm
  164. # [01:22] <jpwhiting> thanks a lot
  165. # [01:22] <Hixie> even though it's a "site" rather than a "page"
  166. # [01:23] <Hixie> basically it's trying to be exhaustively inclusive in its definition of what <article> can be used in
  167. # [01:23] <MikeSmith> jpwhiting: np
  168. # [01:23] <ronaldmansveld> yroc: if an article is spread among multiple pages, it isn't complete anymore (on a given page). So you can't use <article> then. The spec clearly states it has to be "complete or self-contained", which it doesn't in that case
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  170. # [01:24] <yroc> I see.
  171. # [01:24] <ronaldmansveld> yroc: I'm assuming you refer to a 'page' as something with it's own URL
  172. # [01:25] <yroc> ronaldmansveld: Yes, a discrete file.
  173. # [01:25] <yroc> So when I saw site, I thought somehow it was possible to spread <article> across multiple files
  174. # [01:26] <yroc> Though I had no idea how that would work...
  175. # [01:26] <Hixie> yeah, dunno how to get around that
  176. # [01:26] <Hixie> the problem is "file" is so vague these days
  177. # [01:26] <Hixie> e.g. plus.google.com returns unique content anytime you visit it, with the "current page" prerendered
  178. # [01:27] <Hixie> and it then downloads JS to turn the page into dynamic magic
  179. # [01:27] <ronaldmansveld> Hixie: I think the 'complete and self-contained' solves the problem
  180. # [01:27] <Hixie> that's why e.g. if you try to comment on a post in g+ just after the page is up it doesn't work
  181. # [01:27] <MikeSmith> jpwhiting: yeah if you look at the logic in VerifierServletTransaction.java, there's a constant defined there called HTML5_SCHEMA, with a value of 3. and you'll see further down there's switch statement there, "switch (parser)", and for "case HTML" it does schemaId = HTML5_SCHEMA. That's the logic that handles the defaulting.
  182. # [01:27] <Hixie> ronaldmansveld: clearly not since it still confused at least one person :-)
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  184. # [01:27] <jpwhiting> MikeSmith: ah, gotcha
  185. # [01:27] <jpwhiting> very nice
  186. # [01:28] <ronaldmansveld> Hixie: don't be too hard on yourself ;)
  187. # [01:28] <Hixie> it's my job :-)
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  189. # [01:28] <yroc> Hixie: Well, I think a lot of the problem is that people who are reading the spec who don't have the JS background
  190. # [01:28] <yroc> DOM background
  191. # [01:28] <yroc> etc.
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  193. # [01:28] <ronaldmansveld> that's a good spirit ;)
  194. # [01:28] <Hixie> yroc: yeah
  195. # [01:29] <yroc> All these dynamic possibilities that are totally off the radar for me.
  196. # [01:31] <ronaldmansveld> yroc: even though it's not complete yet, http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/html/elements/article might be helpful :)
  197. # [01:31] <Hixie> i like how it says "W3C Working Draft" rather than "WHATWG Living Standard"
  198. # [01:32] <Hixie> "first introduced in HTML5" hah
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  200. # [01:33] <jamesr> Hixie, it's a wiki, should i go fix it and get into an edit war?
  201. # [01:33] <tantek> Hixie, it is cc-by - you can fork webplatform.org and fix it ;)
  202. # [01:33] <zewt> Hixie: i think w3c spec wrecks need a laugh track
  203. # [01:34] <Hixie> turns out it's a structured database, not a wiki
  204. # [01:34] <Hixie> in particular, "W3C Working Draft" is from a list of fixed options
  205. # [01:34] <Hixie> none of which are the actual status
  206. # [01:35] <Hixie> hm, it's some sort of mediawiki frankenmonster?
  207. # [01:35] <ronaldmansveld> Hixie: I'm sure shepazu can help you with complaints about that ;)
  208. # [01:36] <yroc> ronaldmansveld: Thanks :)
  209. # [01:36] <Hixie> if you want to ignore the spec, https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/HTML/Element/article is a way better page than the webplatform.org page
  210. # [01:36] <ronaldmansveld> (or at least redirect you to one of the other people that can change those things)
  211. # [01:37] <ronaldmansveld> Hixie: that's interesting, since MDN was imported to webplatform to form the base-content
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  214. # [01:37] <yroc> I went to "DOM learning materials". It's blank! :(
  215. # [01:38] <zewt> dom learning? you really don't want the DOM becoming self-aware
  216. # [01:38] <Hixie> ronaldmansveld: mdn was? or msdn?
  217. # [01:38] <astearns> ronaldmansveld: MDN was not mass-imported, there was some licensing issue that prevented it. MDN content is being moved over bit by bit
  218. # [01:38] <ronaldmansveld> zewt: thank you for making me laugh at this time of the night
  219. # [01:39] <yroc> zewt: Why not? What will happen?
  220. # [01:39] <yroc> Are we talking judgment day?
  221. # [01:39] <Hixie> so wait, webplatform.org is licensed CC-BY. Does that mean that anyone coping the article page now has to cite me?
  222. # [01:39] <zewt> window.navigator.skynet
  223. # [01:39] <ronaldmansveld> astearns: Ah, I was under the impression all of MDN was imported, sorry 'bout that
  224. # [01:41] <zewt> occasionally wishing for native vectors in js
  225. # [01:41] <zewt> (but i guess i wish for that any time i need to do vector math in any language except shading languages, which have them)
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  227. # [01:44] <jamesr> zewt, assuming you mean the geometry type? do you know of many languages that have that sort of stuff built in?
  228. # [01:44] <zewt> glsl, etc
  229. # [01:44] <jamesr> what i've heard from people who work on these things a lot is nobody can ever agree on what the right APIs for vectors/matrices/etc
  230. # [01:44] <zewt> they're optimized for that sort of thing though
  231. # [01:45] <zewt> eg. Vec3(1,2,3) * 2 = Vec3(2,4,6), Vec3(1,2,3) * Vec3(.5) = Vec3(0.5, 1, 1.5)
  232. # [01:45] <jamesr> yeah, but everybody ends up with their own version
  233. # [01:46] <zewt> well, that's not really a good reason for not picking a competently-designed one and using it
  234. # [01:46] <zewt> (not to say there may not be other reasons to not have them in a language like JS, of course)
  235. # [01:46] * ojan is now known as ojan_away
  236. # [01:48] <ronaldmansveld> anyhow, it's nearing 2 o'clock here, so I better be off to bed
  237. # [01:48] <ronaldmansveld> goodnight all!
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  260. # [02:36] <ojan> TabAtkins: What happened with removing the min-width: min-content behavior from the flexbox spec? I'd really like to change this ASAP. People keep running into it.
  261. # [02:36] <ojan> TabAtkins: there didn't seem to be any opposition on the list
  262. # [02:36] <ojan> TabAtkins: are we just waiting for a F2F?
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  280. # [03:21] <TabAtkins> ojan_away: Got fantasai with me today. I'll see if I can squeeze it in before we're done for the day.
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  345. # [05:45] <JonathanNeal> is rel="self" not allowed?
  346. # [05:50] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: not in HTML
  347. # [05:50] <MikeSmith> it's an atom thing
  348. # [05:51] <MikeSmith> as in I don't think there's any spec anywhere that defines what it's supposed to mean if you use it in an HTML document
  349. # [05:51] <JonathanNeal> Yea, the validators were throwing me an error, but it was recommended to me in another channel. I am trying to markup a simple site navigation that, with currently implemented CSS, can be transformed into a variety of the different navigation styles we see online.
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  351. # [05:51] <MikeSmith> OK
  352. # [05:51] <JonathanNeal> And someone said use rel="self" instead of, say, class="current" on the anchor that links to the current page.
  353. # [05:52] <JonathanNeal> made sense to me, and I was a little surprised to see it wasn't a rel.
  354. # [05:53] <MikeSmith> yeah I guess it makes some sense but the problem is there's no spec that says what that sense is
  355. # [06:02] <JonathanNeal> I hope in the future we have something like :has
  356. # [06:03] <JonathanNeal> In the meantime, basing it off the imaginary future of :has and rel="self", https://gist.github.com/jonathantneal/5096851
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  382. # [07:52] <SimonSapin> Is there any way to know which email address I used on bugzilla?
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  432. # [09:05] <paul_irish> This may come across as naïve, so apologies. In the wake of Opera adopting WebKit. one of the posts that stuck out to me was David Storey's, where he indicated that the now reduction to WebKit, Gecko, and IE introduces an odd constraint on standardization
  433. # [09:05] <paul_irish> (his post: http://generatedcontent.org/post/43036827576/hey-o-lets-go )
  434. # [09:06] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
  435. # [09:06] <paul_irish> In both whatwg and w3c land, the buy-in from two vendors is critical. either to land something into a spec or ship a recommendation.
  436. # [09:07] * Joins: isherman-book (~Adium@173-167-102-230-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  437. # [09:08] <paul_irish> does the new playing field of only 3 engines introduce a big challenge in this regard?
  438. # [09:08] <paul_irish> or is this mostly moot as it's vendors rather than engines that matter?
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  440. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> paul_irish: to me it's just less competition, less diversity, one fewer separate entity trying something different
  441. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> Opera was different
  442. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> well it still is
  443. # [09:12] <paul_irish> Yeah certainly.
  444. # [09:13] <MikeSmith> but Presto was different, the Presto core team was different
  445. # [09:13] <paul_irish> But you don't see this as a threat to standardization progress when it comes to multiple vendor buy-in, right?
  446. # [09:13] <MikeSmith> every browser team has its own culture that brings something valuable
  447. # [09:13] <paul_irish> perhaps it could accelerate it because eng resources are partially pooled
  448. # [09:14] <MikeSmith> ah specificallly around standardization I do see it as a bit of threat
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  450. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> in that Opera has a lot of resources -- a lot of people who have their heads in the right place about standards, and Opera had a committment to investing heavily in standards development
  451. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> way out of proportion to the size of the company or how much money they were making
  452. # [09:16] <MikeSmith> hopefully a lot of those same people are going to be putting that energy into WebKit+Chromium+V8 standards features now
  453. # [09:16] <MikeSmith> and testing
  454. # [09:17] <MikeSmith> I think Opera has the best testing organization among any of the browser projects
  455. # [09:17] <paul_irish> Yeah, confirm.
  456. # [09:17] <tobie> yay testing.
  457. # [09:17] <SimonSapin> paul_irish: AFAIK in W3C-land this is more about two interoperable *implementations* than buy-in from two vendors. So two WebKit vendors still only have one implementation
  458. # [09:18] * Joins: Somatt_wrk_ (~somattwrk@darkstar2.fullsix.com)
  459. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> paul_irish: so would be good to try to ensure we have those people still working on testing and working on Web-platform stuff like they have been for the last many years now -- 6,7,8,9 years
  460. # [09:18] <paul_irish> SimonSapin: is that true? is implementation defined as "you did the work"? e.g. 3D transforms have multiple implementations in webkit ports, but flexbox does not?
  461. # [09:19] * Joins: espadrine (~thaddee_t@tsf-444-wpa-2-004.epfl.ch)
  462. # [09:20] <jgraham> paul_irish: Yes
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  464. # [09:20] <SimonSapin> paul_irish: I’m not sure but I guess so: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-flexbox/#cr-exit-criteria "each implementation must be developed by a different party and cannot share, reuse, or derive from code used by another qualifying implementation"
  465. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> yeah the multiple-implementations criterion needs to be evaluated feature-by-feature, with an understanding of the multiple-ports reality and also separation of the platform parts
  466. # [09:21] <paul_irish> Ah. it gets specific. Thanks SimonSapin
  467. # [09:21] <jgraham> That was a problem for WebSQL, for example (SQLite was the only implementation)
  468. # [09:21] <SimonSapin> I think that was the issue with WebSQL
  469. # [09:21] <paul_irish> :)
  470. # [09:21] <jgraham> It seems like it will be a problem for WebRTC
  471. # [09:21] <tobie> I think it depends where in the stack the implementation is happening. The goal of this "rule" is to prove independent implementations can be built from the spec.
  472. # [09:21] * Joins: nvartolomei (~nvartolom@141.85.37.252)
  473. # [09:21] <SimonSapin> there is also "Sections of code that have no bearing on the implementation of this specification are exempt from this requirement." so eg. using the same C++ compiler is fine
  474. # [09:22] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: what's the procedure for restarting the websocket server on w3c-test.org? i've changed a handler under Opera/
  475. # [09:22] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@80.232.109.46)
  476. # [09:22] <jgraham> zcorpan: Isn't it MikeSmith-over-irc protocol?
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  479. # [09:23] <MikeSmith> SimonSapin: I would not ust CSS WG CR exit criteria as a sterling model of how well things should be scoped. That language there seems overly restrictive to me, and not aligned well with how things actually work
  480. # [09:23] <MikeSmith> jgraham: heh
  481. # [09:23] <paul_irish> MikeSmith: i hope so. that exit criteria seems like it just got dramatically more challenging. :/
  482. # [09:24] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: it involves me ssh'ing into the test machine and running /etc/init.d/apache2 restart
  483. # [09:24] <MikeSmith> which I'll doo right now
  484. # [09:24] <jgraham> +Scooby
  485. # [09:25] <SimonSapin> MikeSmith: Well, that exit criteria is there, and 3 engines instead of 4 is relevant to it. I don’t know if others WGs have other criteria. And what the CSSWG criteria *should* be is yet another issue
  486. # [09:25] <SimonSapin> MikeSmith: I think CSS WG would be open to rewording the criteria
  487. # [09:25] * Joins: ryanseddon (uid1832@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ehnosgkczudfrasv)
  488. # [09:26] <tobie> SimonSapin: exit criteria are WG-specific.
  489. # [09:26] * Joins: toddmparker___ (uid3054@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nlomrokguiwnfmcd)
  490. # [09:26] <jgraham> But generally there is a standard of two interoperable implementations
  491. # [09:26] <jgraham> And all the wiggle is in "implementation" "two" and "interopable"
  492. # [09:26] <tobie> jgraham: agreed.
  493. # [09:27] <jgraham> *interoperable
  494. # [09:27] * Joins: beowulf (uid116@pdpc/supporter/professional/beowulf)
  495. # [09:27] <MikeSmith> SimonSapin: I'm saying they're free to do what they want but that places no prohibition on the rest of us from constraining exit criteria more thoughtfully. It's not a binding precedent.
  496. # [09:27] * Joins: matjas (uid2247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hvfweygxycrzpwfr)
  497. # [09:28] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: excellent
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  499. # [09:28] <SimonSapin> MikeSmith: sure.
  500. # [09:28] <tobie> jgraham: interoperability is too long a word. Let's be hip and call it i14y.
  501. # [09:28] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: restarted now
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  504. # [09:29] <JonathanNeal> tobie: hi5 / facepalm
  505. # [09:29] <jgraham> tobie: Everyone knows that the \w\d\d\w things are things wew can't get right
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  507. # [09:29] <MikeSmith> tobie: I vote for icKy instead
  508. # [09:29] <jgraham> a11y - sucks. i18n - sure, if you live in the USA. So I guess i14y is a bad idea (but perhaps fitting)
  509. # [09:30] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: thanks. hmm. http://w3c-test.org/webapps/WebSockets/tests/submissions/Opera/cookies/002.html still fails for me. is something more needed than restarting to make changes to http://w3c-test.org/webapps/WebSockets/tests/submissions/Opera/handlers/ take effect?
  510. # [09:30] <tobie> jgraham it was a joke.
  511. # [09:31] <jgraham> tobie: So was my response :)
  512. # [09:31] <jgraham> Maybe I just failed at "funny"
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  516. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: nothing more should be needed as far as I know
  517. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> lemme check
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  519. # [09:32] <JonathanNeal> jgraham: you don't like a11y?
  520. # [09:32] <zcorpan> ok. then maybe it's something else being wrong with the test. damn
  521. # [09:33] <JonathanNeal> and by that I mean the abbreviation
  522. # [09:33] <jgraham> JonathanNeal: I meant that we are bad at it, not that the name sucks
  523. # [09:33] * jgraham should be quiet in the future
  524. # [09:33] <tobie> paul_irish: great post on the subject of WebKit architecture/multiple WebKits, btw.
  525. # [09:34] <paul_irish> :) thanks!
  526. # [09:34] * Joins: rcombs (~rcombs@rodgercombs.tk)
  527. # [09:34] <SimonSapin> paul_irish: for your original question: apparently the details depend on what group a spec is in, but most often we seem to be counting implementations rather than vendors. So yes, I think it matters.
  528. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: hmm I'm seeing this error: "mod_pywebsocket: web_socket_transfer_data raised exception for /ws/set-cookie: Connection read error"
  529. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> but I'm not sure that's indicates an actual problem but I think there might be some retry that happends
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  531. # [09:35] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: hmmm
  532. # [09:35] <JonathanNeal> SimonSapin: implementations = engine, or, features?
  533. # [09:37] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: the indentation looks weird in the handler, wonder if that causes ill effects
  534. # [09:37] <JonathanNeal> I guess it's implied that it would be engines, since the vendors are likely the ones cutting the features.
  535. # [09:37] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: well, it's python..
  536. # [09:37] * MikeSmith looks
  537. # [09:37] <SimonSapin> JonathanNeal: I’m not sure what you mean. At least in CSS WG, each feature needs to have at least two independent implementations, where "independent" means not sharing too much relevant code
  538. # [09:37] <paul_irish> SimonSapin: Yeah agreed. Seems like something to bring up as a topic of conversation within the WG sometime. there were 6 two-implementation possibilities before. now there are 3.
  539. # [09:38] <JonathanNeal> jgraham: we are bad at it because the platform or tools are bad, or that we just don't use them enough or effectively?
  540. # [09:39] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: that indentation doesn't look to me like it would cause a problem in python
  541. # [09:39] <SimonSapin> paul_irish: Do you mean we should change the criteria to something less restrictive?
  542. # [09:39] <MikeSmith> .win 20
  543. # [09:39] <MikeSmith> oops
  544. # [09:39] <paul_irish> SimonSapin: yes
  545. # [09:39] * Joins: richt (~richt@80.232.109.46)
  546. # [09:39] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: the last "return" statement has a tab but the line above has 5 spaces
  547. # [09:40] <SimonSapin> paul_irish: I’m not sure how to do that and still keep the criteria useful :/
  548. # [09:40] * Quits: richt (~richt@80.232.109.46) (Remote host closed the connection)
  549. # [09:40] <paul_irish> SimonSapin: unless the WG is comfortable with Exit being ~100% harder than before?
  550. # [09:40] <SimonSapin> multiple independent implementations are still a Good Thing®
  551. # [09:40] <zcorpan> now i don't remember the rules exactly for python, but i'm not sure a tab is greater than 5 spaces
  552. # [09:41] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
  553. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: ah I need to do ":set list" in vim (which I normally got set in my own .vimrc but am su'ed to root)
  554. # [09:41] <jgraham> 8
  555. # [09:41] <zcorpan> jgraham: ok
  556. # [09:41] <jgraham> But the real rule is that you burn in hell for mixing tabs and spaces
  557. # [09:42] <SimonSapin> paul_irish: it’s a real issue, but I don’t have a good answer. Please bring it up on www-style
  558. # [09:42] <zcorpan> changed to 4 spaces
  559. # [09:42] <tobie> paul_irish: Here's what the W3C process doc says: http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr#cfr
  560. # [09:42] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181151161.pp.htv.fi)
  561. # [09:43] <tobie> "Shown that each feature of the technical report has been implemented. Preferably, the Working Group should be able to demonstrate two interoperable implementations of each feature."
  562. # [09:43] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@24.212.206.174) (Remote host closed the connection)
  563. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: but the "while True:" above it is only indented 4 spaces, right?
  564. # [09:44] <tobie> That leaves a lot of leeway.
  565. # [09:44] <jgraham> tobie: Oh, some "preferably" in there too
  566. # [09:44] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: previously it was 5 spaces. now it's 4 and the "return" has 8
  567. # [09:44] <tobie> yup.
  568. # [09:44] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: ah
  569. # [09:45] <tobie> MikeSmith: don't you just <3 languages where ws is significant?
  570. # [09:45] <jgraham> tobie: Yes, I do :)
  571. # [09:46] <Philip`> They're not quite as bad as languages where whitespace is insignificant and you can write
  572. # [09:46] <Philip`> if (x > 0);
  573. # [09:46] <Philip`> foo();
  574. # [09:47] * Joins: darobin (~darobin@78.109.80.74)
  575. # [09:48] <tobie> Lets have a language flamewar in #whatwg. That sounds like a productive use of everyone's time. Ideally, we should ping people, so everyone can have a say.
  576. # [09:48] <Philip`> Clearly the best solution is to write all your programs in a single line
  577. # [09:49] * MikeSmith dials up all his lisp buddies
  578. # [09:49] <jgraham> Philip`: SO, you been learning APL?
  579. # [09:49] <JonathanNeal> WEN WILL SASS BE IN SPEC? LINE RETURNS MATTER TOO
  580. # [09:49] <MikeSmith> Tastes great! vs Less filling!
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  591. # [10:02] <JonathanNeal> Is it likely that more link types will be added to the spec, like rel="self"?
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  594. # [10:07] * abstractj|away is now known as abstractj
  595. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: some of them may graduate into the HTML spec, but rel="self" isn't going anywhere til somebody actually writes a formal definition of what it means in an HTML doc (as opposed to an atom doc), and probably even then not until there is evidence of wide use of it by applications that consume and actually do something with it
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  598. # [10:14] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: should the ws handler be working now?
  599. # [10:14] <annevk> Oh fricking lovely
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  602. # [10:14] <annevk> Because Blob does not check its type parameter everyone else will have to https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111380
  603. # [10:14] <annevk> Blob should check its type parameter imo
  604. # [10:14] <marcosc_> I really don't f'ing understand why the W3C refuses to enable CORS on TR
  605. # [10:15] * marcosc_ is now known as marcosc
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  609. # [10:16] <marcosc> MikeSmith, darobin, any chance you guys could talk to the w3c sys people to enable CORS
  610. # [10:17] <darobin> marcosc: enable it where?
  611. # [10:17] <marcosc> on /TR/
  612. # [10:17] <MikeSmith> marcosc: have been talking already
  613. # [10:17] <darobin> h http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/Overview.html | grep Access
  614. # [10:17] <darobin> 12:Access-Control-Allow-Origin: *
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  618. # [10:23] <marcosc> darobin: hmm... was not seeing that response header in the browser
  619. # [10:23] <marcosc> darobin: I can see it in curl
  620. # [10:23] <darobin> you mean you weren't seeing it in XHR?
  621. # [10:24] <marcosc> testing it now
  622. # [10:24] <darobin> I don't think XHR surfaces CORS headers, but anyway....
  623. # [10:24] <darobin> are you telling me that you made a cross-request domain to /TR/
  624. # [10:24] <darobin> that you got something back
  625. # [10:24] <darobin> and that you thought it didn't work because you couldn't see the header?
  626. # [10:24] <darobin> ...
  627. # [10:25] <darobin> s/cross-request domain/cross-domain request/
  628. # [10:25] <annevk> s/cross-domain request/cross-origin request/
  629. # [10:25] <darobin> yeah that
  630. # [10:25] * Joins: richt (~richt@91.203.97.247)
  631. # [10:25] <marcosc> no, I went to a random spec on TR and was checking if Access-Control-Allow-Origin was sent
  632. # [10:26] * darobin heads for coffeee
  633. # [10:29] <marcosc> darobin:
  634. # [10:29] <marcosc> http://jsfiddle.net/B7AZu/
  635. # [10:29] <marcosc> XMLHttpRequest cannot load http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/. Origin http://fiddle.jshell.net is not allowed by Access-Control-Allow-Origin.
  636. # [10:29] <hsivonen> jpwhiting: you may be interested in looking at the changesets that added ITS validation
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  639. # [10:30] <darobin> marcosc: I don't know man, it works on the CLI :)
  640. # [10:30] * Joins: ronaldmansveld (~ronaldman@095-097-008-146.static.chello.nl)
  641. # [10:31] <marcosc> CORS is kinda pointless in the CLI :)
  642. # [10:31] * ronaldmansveld is now known as ronaldm|work
  643. # [10:31] * Joins: zdobersek (~zdobersek@cpe-77.38.31.63.cable.t-1.si)
  644. # [10:32] <marcosc> Quick, W3C meme this: "Hey guys! We enabled CORS in the CLI. Now you can curl without problems!"
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  646. # [10:33] <darobin> marcosc: your fiddle works perfectly fine for me...
  647. # [10:33] <marcosc> really?
  648. # [10:34] <marcosc> what browser?
  649. # [10:34] <hsivonen> annevk: FYI: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21203 (CORS and EME)
  650. # [10:34] <darobin> wanna W3C "I don't always use jsfiddle, but when I do I can't figure out how to press the Run button"?
  651. # [10:34] <darobin> marcosc: Fx18
  652. # [10:35] <darobin> anyway, I really need that coffee
  653. # [10:35] <hsivonen> darobin: you need a Firefox upgrade
  654. # [10:35] <darobin> I need it to make cross brain-blood barrier requests
  655. # [10:35] <darobin> hsivonen: I always wait a little bit
  656. # [10:36] <darobin> and besides, I don't really restart my browser every six weeks, that's a tad too often
  657. # [10:38] * Joins: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra)
  658. # [10:38] <hsivonen> Is the picture in http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/43403131361/and-he-thought-that-special-protector-of-drm a common meme picture one is supposed to recognize?
  659. # [10:38] * Quits: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra) (Remote host closed the connection)
  660. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I think it is not a common one, no
  661. # [10:41] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok. do you happen to know the origin of the picture?
  662. # [10:42] <annevk> hsivonen: added myself to the cc list
  663. # [10:43] <annevk> marcosc: does TR/ send multiple CORS headers?
  664. # [10:44] <marcosc> I don't think so. Looks like this is just a bug in Chrome 25. Chrome 27 is fine, as is Safari.
  665. # [10:44] <hsivonen> annevk: I tend to think that allowing only one origin or * was a mistake.
  666. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I promised my girlfriend the other day that I would quite lying. So because of that promise, you must permit me to be excused from answering your question directly.
  667. # [10:45] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok
  668. # [10:45] <hsivonen> annevk: that is, some big sites might not want to put a huge ACL in there, but small sites might still benefit from being able to put their full (small but larger than one item) ACL in there
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  670. # [10:46] <annevk> hsivonen: allowing more can be done, but I suppose the fallback could have been better
  671. # [10:46] <annevk> hsivonen: maybe if we want to allow more we should introduce a shorter header too...
  672. # [10:47] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I did find http://i.imgur.com/nMTEg.jpg from google image search
  673. # [10:47] <annevk> then Access-Control-Allow-Origin is for fallback
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  675. # [10:51] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: hmm. so there is some meme pattern there
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  680. # [10:54] <hsivonen> I wonder how much Stack Overflow is fueled by 386. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5175840/is-html-a-context-free-language needs a better answer.
  681. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I wouldn't make too much of those two instances as evidence of a pattern. My guess is that one of them just copied the meme connection from the other. :)
  682. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: oh boy "The answer is yes. SGML is a well defined Context Free Language, and HTML defined on top of it is also a CFL."
  683. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> definitely 386
  684. # [10:56] <hsivonen> it's ridiculous that hg strip --no-backup 'roots(outgoing())' takes hours longer than just recloning the full repo
  685. # [10:57] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: the NO answer there is pretty good though
  686. # [10:58] * Joins: nonge_ (~nonge@p5082903C.dip.t-dialin.net)
  687. # [10:58] <hsivonen> today I learned: Even Kingston sells ridiculously slow USB sticks
  688. # [10:59] <hsivonen> and here I thought Kingston was an OK brand for that
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  698. # [11:04] <jgraham> hsivonen: What is that doing? Removing all unpushed code?
  699. # [11:05] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: a tcp trace suggests it's still the old handler
  700. # [11:05] <MikeSmith> oh
  701. # [11:05] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: yeah
  702. # [11:05] <MikeSmith> I remember now
  703. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> I need to manually copy them
  704. # [11:06] <zcorpan> aha
  705. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> sorry it just came back to me, from when we talked at TPAC. You remember?
  706. # [11:06] * Quits: klaaspieter (~klaaspiet@095-097-240-221.static.chello.nl) (Quit: klaaspieter)
  707. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> anyway, fixing it now
  708. # [11:06] <zcorpan> hmm. yeah now you mention it
  709. # [11:08] <zcorpan> just installed packet peeper, which seems to be pretty neat
  710. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: ok the updated file is in the right place now
  711. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> sorry for making you burn up time man :(
  712. # [11:09] <zcorpan> Pass WebSockets: Set-Cookie in response
  713. # [11:09] <zcorpan> yay
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  715. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> cool
  716. # [11:10] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: it's ok, i was mostly reading email anyway
  717. # [11:10] <zcorpan> hey i just joined 3 WGs
  718. # [11:10] <zcorpan> webapps, css, webrtc
  719. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> nice
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  721. # [11:11] <zcorpan> i wonder which specs are in greatest need of an editor
  722. # [11:11] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I just use tcpdump. packet peeper is a gui I guess?
  723. # [11:11] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: yeah
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  725. # [11:12] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: i didn't work out how to read the output of tcpdump
  726. # [11:12] <zcorpan> and since the websocket is on port 80 i didn't figure out a good filter
  727. # [11:12] <hsivonen> jgraham: it removes all changesets that are not in the current upstream after you've edited .hg/hgrc to give the repo a different upstream than it had originally
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  729. # [11:13] <zcorpan> in packet peeper i could just scroll through the list and go "trace tcp" when i saw something involving "websocket"
  730. # [11:13] <zcorpan> which gave a nice request+response for the websocket connection
  731. # [11:13] <MikeSmith> ok
  732. # [11:14] <zcorpan> which is similar to the experience of wireshark, but wireshark's UI is horrible
  733. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: yeah wireshark is painful
  734. # [11:16] <jgraham> hsivonen: I have to ask why? I mean I can imagine wanting to reset the current branch to the new upstream head, but why remove commits? Or is this some hg-ism of not allowing commits that aren't reachable from a head?
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  736. # [11:16] <zcorpan> the installation was similarly seamless with peeper but less so with wireshark
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  738. # [11:29] <hsivonen> jgraham: it saves storage and is supposed to be faster than a full clone from the network
  739. # [11:29] <hsivonen> jgraham: except that it really is slower
  740. # [11:30] <hsivonen> jgraham: the storage saving is probably real, though
  741. # [11:30] <hsivonen> I succumbed to 386: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5175840/is-html-a-context-free-language/15244772#15244772
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  749. # [11:47] <hsivonen> hmm. maybe the Kingston USB stick is OK but a couple of USB ports on my computer are just terrible...
  750. # [11:48] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Is HTML without parse-errors (ignoring validity for now) a CFG?
  751. # [11:49] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@207.218.72.65)
  752. # [11:49] * gsnedders thinks not
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  755. # [11:55] <zcorpan> hsivonen: " and those rules are complex enough that they can be fully defined using tree automata" s/can/can't/ ?
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  759. # [12:06] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks. fixed
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  761. # [12:07] <hsivonen> gsnedders: Pretty sure not due to feedback from the tree builder into the tokenizer, but I didn't try to actually develop a proof
  762. # [12:10] <annevk> Nice demonstration on stackoverflow.com how you're only as smart as the people that pay attention.
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  764. # [12:18] <hsivonen> gsnedders: I edited the answer to ack interesting questions in the no parse errors but ignoring validity scenario
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  766. # [12:22] <SimonSapin> zcorpan: do you really want to spec table layout?
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  769. # [12:29] <annevk> well, someone has to
  770. # [12:29] <annevk> but defining the box model in a different way first might be a good idea
  771. # [12:36] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: maybe
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  774. # [12:42] <SimonSapin> annevk: box model yay https://twitter.com/SimonSapin/status/263190763851116544/photo/1
  775. # [12:43] <annevk> SimonSapin: uhuh
  776. # [12:43] <SimonSapin> more seriously, I’d help with a better definition
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  778. # [12:44] <SimonSapin> it’d also need hooks for other CSS modules to influence box generation
  779. # [12:45] <annevk> CSS needs a little less of "this is how we organize specs" and therefore "this is how to write them" and more "this is how the code works"
  780. # [12:45] <SimonSapin> for table layout, hopefully we can push dbaron to help update http://dbaron.org/css/intrinsic/ and put it in css3-sizing
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  782. # [12:55] <annevk> Hixie: I thought that you said Origin could not always be included in the request. But it seems per the Origin specification it's always included, just sometimes it has the value "null"...
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  789. # [13:13] <annevk> cross-origin = no-and-fail, no-and-taint, yes-and-fail seems to be pretty much it
  790. # [13:15] <annevk> no-and-taint is a typical fetch today
  791. # [13:15] <annevk> no-and-fail is workers
  792. # [13:15] <annevk> yes-and-fail is XHR, stuff with crossorigin set
  793. # [13:18] <SimonSapin> anyway zcorpan, good to have you in the group
  794. # [13:19] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: thanks
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  796. # [13:20] <zcorpan> annevk: what does "yes" and "no" refer to here?
  797. # [13:21] <annevk> zcorpan: whether you want to go there at all
  798. # [13:21] <zcorpan> ah
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  800. # [13:22] <zcorpan> so <track> is yes-and-fail, <video> is yes-and-taint (i think)?
  801. # [13:22] <annevk> <video> is yes-and-taint? I thought that didn't exist
  802. # [13:23] <zcorpan> <video> has a crossorigin attribute, though we didn't implement it for <video> in presto (only for track)
  803. # [13:23] <annevk> <track> depends on crossorigin=""
  804. # [13:23] <zcorpan> yeah
  805. # [13:24] <annevk> if <track> has no crossorigin="" attribute it would be no-and-fail
  806. # [13:24] <annevk> otherwise yes-and-fail
  807. # [13:24] <annevk> afaict
  808. # [13:24] <zcorpan> ah yeah, indeed
  809. # [13:24] <annevk> whereas most such as <img> are no-and-taint and yes-and-fail
  810. # [13:24] <annevk> I think <video> would just be no-and-taint then
  811. # [13:25] <zcorpan> isn't <img> yes-and-taint without crossorigin set?
  812. # [13:25] <annevk> no
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  814. # [13:25] <annevk> yes-and-taint does not exist
  815. # [13:25] <annevk> afaik
  816. # [13:25] <annevk> (although that was my original design)
  817. # [13:26] <zcorpan> but <img src="//cross-origin.com"> loads the resource. so i guess i don't understand your "yes" and "no" still
  818. # [13:27] <annevk> yeah, should name it differently
  819. # [13:28] <annevk> mode = same-origin, CORS-cross-origin, CORS-same-origin
  820. # [13:28] <annevk> well no that's wrong
  821. # [13:28] <annevk> same-origin, tainted cross-origin, CORS
  822. # [13:28] <jgraham> Hmm, it seems presto and WebKit both set an event property on window during execution of a event handler, at least one set via a content attribute (dunno how it works with nested events)
  823. # [13:28] <jgraham> Is that in the spec somewhere I'm not looking
  824. # [13:28] <jgraham> ?
  825. # [13:29] <annevk> it's an IE thing
  826. # [13:29] <annevk> which we've wanted to kill for a long time now
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  828. # [13:30] <jgraham> Some variant of "we" that doesn't include WebKit, it seems
  829. # [13:31] <annevk> well yeah, other than arv_ there's not much communication from WebKit about these things :-(
  830. # [13:34] <hsivonen> Interesting that my Voddler/Skyfall tweet is not getting retweets. Too shocking to be believed?
  831. # [13:36] <annevk> hsivonen: I don't know about Voddler and a single incident is unlikely to convince anyone I think
  832. # [13:36] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: i've updated the handlers again. take it when you have time, i'll be travelling anyway
  833. # [13:36] <hsivonen> annevk: depends on whether one wants to be convinced of existence proof or about generalization
  834. # [13:36] <hsivonen> annevk: it's existence proof but doesn't generalize ATM
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  836. # [13:37] <annevk> hsivonen: I guess it's kind of noteworthy that you can stream Skyfall to a browser, hadn't really considered it from that perspective
  837. # [13:38] <annevk> hsivonen: on the other hand, I don't really follow what's going on in that space
  838. # [13:38] <hsivonen> annevk: to a browser without DRM on Linux
  839. # [13:39] <hsivonen> that should be off-the-charts notable compared to the other stuff I tweet that gets retweeted all the time
  840. # [13:48] <annevk> Dunno how it works. Maybe "HTML5 DRM-free version of Skyfall available for rent. Why do we need EME again?" would work better?
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  845. # [14:14] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I'm not sure that that cannot be reduced to a single stack in the valid case.
  846. # [14:14] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I tried to construct a semi-formal proof before, but got bored and gave up.
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  862. # [14:57] <annevk> Okay, so the Origin header situation seems really messed up...
  863. # [14:58] <annevk> For "potentially CORS-enabled fetch" it's basically only included if a) mode is "Anonymous" or "Use Credentials" and b) the request is cross-origin
  864. # [14:58] <annevk> For "fetch" it's only included if "from" is present in the invocation of the algorithm
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  866. # [14:59] <annevk> The intersection of "potentially CORS-enabled fetch" and "fetch" is "No CORS" taint
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  869. # [15:00] <annevk> I think to properly support the "potentially CORS-enabled fetch" I'd need to introduce some kind of suppress Origin header flag
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  871. # [15:02] <annevk> which when set "suppresses" the header for same-origin requests and tainted cross-origin requests while still allowing the response to the request to be marked as CORS-same-origin
  872. # [15:02] <annevk> :-(
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  876. # [15:07] <SimonSapin> getting 500 errors on https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/ … who should I ping?
  877. # [15:09] <jgraham> MikeSmith or darobin_
  878. # [15:09] <jgraham> Who might proxy the request
  879. # [15:09] * darobin_ is now known as darobin
  880. # [15:10] <darobin> oh for fuck's sake
  881. # [15:10] <darobin> that thing's down all the time
  882. # [15:10] <jgraham> Or just cuss
  883. # [15:10] <darobin> it beats me why hg was even brought into this world
  884. # [15:11] <darobin> SimonSapin: should work now
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  887. # [15:12] <darobin> for reference: https://twitter.com/robinberjon/status/309305376329830400
  888. # [15:14] <SimonSapin> darobin: great! Now testing https://github.com/msysgit/msysgit/wiki/Guide-to-git-remote-hg
  889. # [15:16] <darobin> SimonSapin: good luck
  890. # [15:17] <darobin> at some level I think that persuading the CSS WG to switch to git would actually prove *easier*, but I know that's setting the bar pretty high
  891. # [15:17] <SimonSapin> easier than using something like git-remote-hg?
  892. # [15:17] <jgraham> Easier than what?
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  895. # [15:33] <MikeSmith> darobin: did you restart the server yet or should I?
  896. # [15:33] <darobin> MikeSmith: I did it
  897. # [15:33] <darobin> SimonSapin: well, tell me how it goes
  898. # [15:34] <darobin> but I suspect that there are enough incompatibilities between git and hg that you might end up with weird issues
  899. # [15:34] <SimonSapin> darobin: git and hg are actually very close, afaik hg-git works well enough
  900. # [15:35] <SimonSapin> https://github.com/dubiousjim/yagh documents various ways of how to do the reverse
  901. # [15:35] <darobin> I couldn't get hg-git to work reliably actually
  902. # [15:35] <jgraham> SimonSapin: Whenever I have tried using git with a hg remote "well enough" was a ephemism for "with extreme pain"
  903. # [15:35] <SimonSapin> git-hg-again worked fine, but was slow. I suspect it to rewrite the whole commit history … sometimes
  904. # [15:35] <darobin> and neither could Aryeh
  905. # [15:36] <jgraham> I mean it did sort of work
  906. # [15:36] <darobin> for the very basics, most of the time
  907. # [15:36] <jgraham> But it was hard to recommend as a solution
  908. # [15:36] <darobin> but anything slightly exotic...
  909. # [15:37] <SimonSapin> with msysgit’s git-remote-hg, this Just Worked®: git clone hg::http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/
  910. # [15:37] <SimonSapin> git gc --aggressive to make the repo smaller
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  912. # [15:37] <SimonSapin> we don’t have a fancy branch setup in CSSWG
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  914. # [15:38] <SimonSapin> this implementation looks more solid than various patterns for "hg-git in reverse"
  915. # [15:39] <jgraham> Well, if it still works once you are actually using the local repo and want to pull in updates that will be more impressive
  916. # [15:39] <jgraham> Since just cloning is quite straightforward, but dealing with merges and so on is less so
  917. # [15:40] <SimonSapin> well, merges are done locally by git
  918. # [15:41] <jgraham> (I assume the reason that git-svn works OKish is because no one over does anything remotely complex with svn)
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  929. # [16:01] <SimonSapin> jgraham: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/rev/ad000eb1bb5d was just pushed from git
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  945. # [16:22] <zewt> very first impression of ie10: i load it, click the address bar, start typing a url, and midway through typing it erases the url i'm typing and goes to some "welcome to IE10!" thing
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  947. # [16:26] <darobin> I've had similar issues with it insisting that I really meant my URLs to be Bing searches
  948. # [16:27] <jgraham> IE has terrible UI? Say it isn't so!
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  953. # [16:37] <hsivonen> I'm eager to see charset menu telemetry hit the release channel. Can't really conclude anything about Nightly, since the usage may be devs debugging rather than real normal users seeing broken pages.
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  960. # [16:52] <annevk> So lets see. Send Origin when passed for mode tainted cross-origin. Otherwise only send for requests with mode CORS
  961. # [16:57] <zewt> all w3 lists are subscriber-only-posting, right?
  962. # [16:57] <Ms2ger> I don't think so
  963. # [16:57] <Ms2ger> I'm pretty sure anyone can post to www-archive
  964. # [16:58] <zewt> (not sure what I should trim from this huge crosspost on the IDB thread)
  965. # [16:58] <zewt> probably going to trim to just webapps (has -tag and a zillion random people on i)
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  971. # [17:19] <zewt> ugh, somebody at firefox needs to be shot
  972. # [17:20] <zewt> as of firefox 17 and current webkit, both browsers agreed: headers in XHR are encoded/decoded as UTF-8 and exposed as normal strings
  973. # [17:20] <zewt> only IE had the insane, broken and completely unusable behavior of exposing the raw data
  974. # [17:20] <zewt> ... but firefox 19 is now doing what IE does
  975. # [17:21] <jgraham> zewt: What does the spec say?
  976. # [17:21] <zewt> it's depressing when we have a majority agreement on good, sane behavior, then we regress to insanity
  977. # [17:22] <jgraham> And is there a test case?
  978. # [17:22] <zewt> jgraham: the spec says IE's behavior (which is why I was looking into this, I wanted to tell anne to get rid of that crap)
  979. # [17:22] <zewt> http://zewt.org/~glenn/blar.html, check the console
  980. # [17:23] <zewt> logs filename=漢字 in FF17 and current Chrome, mojibake in FF19 and IE
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  983. # [17:26] <zewt> xhr.setRequestHeader also takes a regular UTF-16 string and sends UTF-8 in the header in FF17/WebKit (it doesn't throw); haven't tested to see if FF19 changed anything there
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  988. # [17:33] <SimonSapin> pango-view --font 'Fontin 30' <(echo cffi)
  989. # [17:33] <SimonSapin> sorry, wrong tab
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  998. # [17:45] <asmodai> Anyone else notice embedding issues with Chrome 26 and the latest Flash for, say, YouTube videos on pages? It shows the Flash embed, but nothing's clickable.
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  1003. # [17:53] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  1006. # [17:54] <wilhelm> "Therefore HTML5 is now permitted in W3C Recommendations."
  1007. # [17:57] <darobin> wilhelm: that's actually not true
  1008. # [17:57] <darobin> (or soon not true, I forget)
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  1010. # [17:58] <Ms2ger> Or relevant, for that matter
  1011. # [17:59] <darobin> oh, wilhelm said "now" :)
  1012. # [17:59] <darobin> I had read not
  1013. # [18:00] <darobin> lots of information riding on that letter
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  1018. # [18:09] <bholley> Hixie: yt?
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  1027. # [18:28] <asmodai> Mmm, interesting. Enable the builtin pepperflash of Chrome, the embed works. Use the official flash from the Adobe site and the embed is unclickable.
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  1036. # [18:47] <Hixie> bholley: briefly, if it's quick, or i'll be online again in a bit
  1037. # [18:47] <bholley> Hixie: naw, it's ok. I commented in bug 19662
  1038. # [18:47] <Hixie> k
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  1043. # [18:55] <JonathanNeal> Does rel="index" point to a reference list for the site (like the index in a book), or does it point to the main/central document of the site (like how the index file commonly works on the web).
  1044. # [18:55] <Hixie> what does the definition say?
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  1046. # [18:56] <JonathanNeal> "Refers to a document providing an index for the current document."
  1047. # [18:58] <JonathanNeal> And I'm unsure if "index" means "top level resource" or not.
  1048. # [18:59] <JonathanNeal> since "index" uses "index" to define itself.
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  1051. # [18:59] <Ms2ger> Index in a book, I guess
  1052. # [18:59] <Ms2ger> You refer to index.html?
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  1054. # [19:00] <JonathanNeal> When I think of an index in a book, I think of the table of contents.
  1055. # [19:00] <JonathanNeal> When I think of an index on the web, I think of a top level resource.
  1056. # [19:00] <JonathanNeal> like a "home page"
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  1059. # [19:02] <JonathanNeal> Perhaps an index on the web can be thought of similarly as a table of contents, just also with independent content and/or other aggregated content.
  1060. # [19:02] <Ms2ger> When I think of an index, it's a list of terms at the end of a book
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  1062. # [19:02] <JonathanNeal> Ms2ger: right you are, I was a little turned around.
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  1064. # [19:03] <Ms2ger> I think that's the meaning that's used in the spec too :)
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  1067. # [19:04] <JonathanNeal> Originally, I thought that too, but the spec doesn't clarify, and other resources take the web definition, for instance, https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/HTML/Link_types
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  1069. # [19:05] <JonathanNeal> Also, I don't see many traditional indexes on the web, except in the form of search results.
  1070. # [19:06] <JonathanNeal> I'm at a draw, leaning to the web definition, but I think you prove that there's considerable reason to doubt that it means top level resource, unless there's another part of spec that clarifies.
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  1076. # [19:17] <jgraham> tobie: "desired tests" scares me
  1077. # [19:18] <jgraham> Since there is no mechanism to prove that tests are covering different parts of the specification it's a rather meaningless number
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  1080. # [19:18] <jgraham> Certainly it would be really easy to stuff the repo. with many tests for a feature without testing it deeply
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  1082. # [19:19] <jgraham> This is not in any way a theoretical concern
  1083. # [19:19] <tobie> That's why we have a review process.
  1084. # [19:20] <tobie> And we'll have ways to manually override this "desired test" data
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  1086. # [19:21] <jgraham> Well the review process is only likely to catch "this test is wrong" (and even then)
  1087. # [19:21] <jgraham> It's hard to say to someone "no we don't need tests for 'outline' with 20 different colours"
  1088. # [19:21] <tobie> how so?
  1089. # [19:22] <tobie> It's the whole point of this exercise.
  1090. # [19:22] <Ms2ger> Because Microsoft will push those hard...
  1091. # [19:22] <jgraham> Because it will cause conflict
  1092. # [19:22] <tobie> Really?
  1093. # [19:22] <jgraham> yes
  1094. # [19:22] <tobie> The whole point of this exercise is to identify areas where writing tests is particularly inmpactful
  1095. # [19:22] <jgraham> Because if you complain about it the complaint amounts to "I think you are acting in bad faith"
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  1097. # [19:23] <jgraham> Sure, I agree that it is highly useful to identify undertested areas
  1098. # [19:23] <tobie> well there you go.
  1099. # [19:23] <jgraham> I don't think the inverse is true or possible
  1100. # [19:23] <jgraham> "it" - a general method
  1101. # [19:23] <jgraham> Not this specific presentation
  1102. # [19:24] <tobie> We can have reviewers override coverage for a section.
  1103. # [19:24] <tobie> Or test facilitators do the same.
  1104. # [19:24] <tobie> So you add a hundred useless test and the reviewer looks at it and says: oh well, that's does;t move the needle one bit.
  1105. # [19:24] <tobie> Actual coverage is still 50%/
  1106. # [19:25] <jgraham> (I guess the inverse might be possible if we used code coverage data from the implementations contributing to the conformance report... Might be hard to identify the "relevant" code for each part though)
  1107. # [19:25] <tobie> That's an interesting strategy.
  1108. # [19:26] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  1109. # [19:26] <tobie> That said, running these scripts on the HTML5 spec has already uncovered some very valuable info:
  1110. # [19:26] <jgraham> I guess for Gecko and WebKit implementing new features it might actually work
  1111. # [19:26] <tobie> we're missing test reviewers more than tests writers.
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  1113. # [19:27] <jgraham> But not for Trident, or features that already exist
  1114. # [19:27] <tobie> jgraham: are you interested in looking more deeply at this and trying to create similar report using the strategy you just described?
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  1116. # [19:29] <jgraham> tobie: Interested, yes. But not prepared to make promises :)
  1117. # [19:29] <Ms2ger> jgraham, actually, I'd love to see code coverage, can I task you to do that? :)
  1118. # [19:30] <jgraham> Ms2ger: How much do you pay? :p
  1119. # [19:30] <Ms2ger> jgraham, on Opera's time ;)
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  1145. # [20:02] <zewt> wow, gross
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  1147. # [20:02] <zewt> in mobile safari, clicking the document while the onscreen keyboard is open appears to close the keyboard ... if a click event handler is registered
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  1154. # [20:11] <astearns> jgraham: tobie: Ms2ger: If there's a spec section with a questionable set of tests, one possible solution is to go more granular
  1155. # [20:11] <Ms2ger> Hmm?
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  1157. # [20:11] <astearns> map those tests to subsections, paragraphs or spans (the way WOFF does) to show what's still not covered
  1158. # [20:11] <Ms2ger> The solution is better tests
  1159. # [20:12] <astearns> agreed. I'm just looking for a way to settle an argument if one crops up
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  1162. # [20:12] <tobie> what about we wait for the argument to crop up and then act accordingly.
  1163. # [20:13] <tobie> the data we have is far from being a panacea.
  1164. # [20:13] <tobie> Yet we can improve it over time, either through better heuristics or by overriding parts of it manually.
  1165. # [20:14] * Ms2ger grinds his axe
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  1168. # [20:15] <tobie> This data is better than just pulling numbers out of thin air like we've been doing so far.
  1169. # [20:15] <astearns> yep yep
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  1171. # [20:15] <tobie> During the same meeting, I heard HTML5 needed 1 million tests or 10'000.
  1172. # [20:16] <tobie> That's two orders of magnitude. And that's ridiculous.
  1173. # [20:16] <Ms2ger> Both are too low
  1174. # [20:16] <jgraham> For comparison we had like 1/3 of a million tests for Presto
  1175. # [20:16] <jgraham> And that was not enough
  1176. # [20:16] <jgraham> (that's the whole platform of course)
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  1178. # [20:17] <tobie> So one thing we should start doing is count in number of assertions.
  1179. # [20:17] <tobie> a test means little, really.
  1180. # [20:17] <tobie> unless we have a shared definition of what a test is.
  1181. # [20:17] <tobie> ?
  1182. # [20:18] <tobie> jgraham: how much of those can we bring to the W3c repository
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  1184. # [20:19] <jgraham> tobie: Lots of that was stuff that we imported from outside
  1185. # [20:20] <jgraham> But we are, and have been, working on releasing tests we wrote ourselves
  1186. # [20:20] <jgraham> There are lots of tests that will likely not get released though just because it would be so much effort
  1187. # [20:21] <tobie> yeah. git push w3c is painful to type.
  1188. # [20:21] <tobie> :P
  1189. # [20:21] <jgraham> You are focussing on the wrong part :)
  1190. # [20:21] <tobie> :)
  1191. # [20:23] <jgraham> e.g. for the websockets tests which were written in a slightly pre-testharness.js framework and were already organised well, it took me maybe 2 days of effort to convert the tests and zcorpan is still fixing some edge cases
  1192. # [20:23] <jgraham> In fact, including the time at TPAC, I guess 2 is an underestimate
  1193. # [20:23] <Ms2ger> I wish we'd use testharness.js more :/
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  1196. # [20:26] <jgraham> (kind of hard to estimate since it was evenings + etc. so I wasn't really counting)
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  1199. # [20:28] <Ms2ger> I wonder if Björns research on quotes in email could be integrated in thunderbird...
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  1206. # [20:40] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: [define:index] on google says "An alphabetical list of names, subjects, etc., with references to the places where they occur, typically found at the end of a book.
  1207. # [20:40] <Hixie> "
  1208. # [20:42] <JonathanNeal> Hixie: exactly, and, as of this moment, I have adopted that definition, since microformats also specifies as "home" type.
  1209. # [20:42] <JonathanNeal> http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values#HTML5_link_type_extensions
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  1212. # [20:45] <JonathanNeal> *specifies a "home" type.
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  1214. # [20:45] <JonathanNeal> I also edited the document to prevent the keywords from being used to define themselves.
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  1216. # [20:46] <JonathanNeal> I think TabAtkins has a name for when you do that, something like a game of intellectual taboo.
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  1220. # [20:48] <Hixie> the rel=index and the english word "index" have nothing to do with each other
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  1222. # [20:48] <Hixie> it's not like they're the same word
  1223. # [20:48] <Hixie> one is an opaque string, the other is a human language word defined in dictionaries and by usage
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  1225. # [20:49] <Hixie> there's no difference between "the 'index' keyword declares an index" and "the 'zoopie' keyword declares an index"
  1226. # [20:49] <Hixie> if the second of those is well-defined, then so is the first
  1227. # [20:49] <Ms2ger> Well-defined as long as you have a shared definition of the English word "index" :)
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  1229. # [20:50] <Hixie> that's what i mean
  1230. # [20:51] <Hixie> but that's got nothing to do with whether you're defining the _keyword_ "index" or "zoopie".
  1231. # [20:51] <Hixie> (JonathanNeal: ^)
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  1233. # [20:52] <JonathanNeal> I follow, but there were two conflicting meanings for "index". Again, MDN had it the other way https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/HTML/Link_types
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  1235. # [20:53] <Hixie> two meanings for the keyword or for the word?
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  1237. # [20:54] <JonathanNeal> for the keyword.
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  1245. # [21:00] <JonathanNeal> That's why I linked to both the microformats and mdn wikis, Hixie. I follow what you mean about keyword vs word, and I am talking about the keyword.
  1246. # [21:01] <Hixie> well the mdn wiki isn't normative, so it's pretty easy to decide which is the right definition :-)
  1247. # [21:02] <Hixie> if anyone has an opinion on what "the initial about:blank" is, please let https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17093 know
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  1319. # [23:24] <ronaldmansveld> tantek, Hixie either of you here?
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  1321. # [23:26] <tantek> sometimes ;)
  1322. # [23:26] <ronaldmansveld> haha
  1323. # [23:26] <ronaldmansveld> I have a quick question about the :after pseudo
  1324. # [23:27] <tantek> which we now prefer ::after for - since it's a pseudo-element (rather than pseudo-class)
  1325. # [23:27] <ronaldmansveld> (and since you're both editors, I guess you know the answer)
  1326. # [23:27] <ronaldmansveld> You're correct, thank you
  1327. # [23:27] * tantek wonders if this is a references to CSS 2.1 or Selectors ;)
  1328. # [23:27] <ronaldmansveld> 2.1
  1329. # [23:28] <ronaldmansveld> if I do a::after {content: "something";}, I guess the "something" should be clickable as well right? Since it's part of the anchor
  1330. # [23:28] <ronaldmansveld> (which is implemented that way in IE10, FF and Opera, but not in Chrome)
  1331. # [23:28] * JonathanNeal looks among his protest paraphernalia and grabs the ::outside advocacy sign
  1332. # [23:29] <tantek> ronaldmansveld - yes that sounds correct
  1333. # [23:29] <ronaldmansveld> OK, that makes case for a bugreport :)
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  1336. # [23:29] <JonathanNeal> ronaldmansveld: woohoo
  1337. # [23:30] <tantek> from a "tree" perspective, ::before and ::after are both *inside* their element, inherit its inheritable CSS properties etc.
  1338. # [23:30] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.111.142)
  1339. # [23:30] <tantek> yes that sounds like a webkit bug
  1340. # [23:30] * Parts: jacobolus (~jacobolus@50-0-133-210.dsl.static.sonic.net) ("Leaving...")
  1341. # [23:31] <ronaldmansveld> I thought so
  1342. # [23:32] * Joins: birtles (~chatzilla@rtr.mozilla.or.jp)
  1343. # [23:32] <JonathanNeal> Then, with your clout from this bug, report the missing ::outside
  1344. # [23:32] <JonathanNeal> Get it landed in canary :)
  1345. # [23:38] <ronaldmansveld> well, it isn't quite behaving as ::outside either
  1346. # [23:39] <ronaldmansveld> it does get the styling of the anchor, it just doesn't register the click
  1347. # [23:39] <ronaldmansveld> but I'll make mention of ::outside in the report :P
  1348. # [23:40] <JonathanNeal> Oh, I was just being fun. I wouldn't want to discredit your report with something as trivial as ::outside.
  1349. # [23:40] <JonathanNeal> Your bug report is totally valid and the expectations are clear.
  1350. # [23:40] * Joins: ^esc (~esc_ape@178.115.251.27.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  1351. # [23:41] <JonathanNeal> My thing was just … me wishing.
  1352. # [23:41] <JonathanNeal> So, by all means, advocate my wish, but don't let it hold you up.
  1353. # [23:42] <ronaldmansveld> Ah, no need for a report
  1354. # [23:43] <ronaldmansveld> had been fixed in canary
  1355. # [23:43] <ronaldmansveld> *has
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  1357. # [23:43] <JonathanNeal> nice
  1358. # [23:43] <ronaldmansveld> Now I have to wait even longer for my first bug-report :(
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  1365. # [23:47] <bholley> Hixie: yt?
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  1372. # [23:55] <Hixie> bholley: yo
  1373. # [23:56] <bholley> Hixie: just commented
  1374. # [23:56] <bholley> Hixie: that make sense?
  1375. # [23:56] <Hixie> bug #?
  1376. # [23:56] <bholley> Hixie: bug 19662
  1377. # [23:56] <bholley> Hixie: if you prefer to do this more async, that's totally fine
  1378. # [23:56] <bholley> Hixie: I'm not sure how many pots you have boiling
  1379. # [23:57] * bholley is just in the habit of pinging people to sort out confusion
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  1382. # [23:58] <Hixie> too many to count but sync is fine too :-)
  1383. # [23:58] <Hixie> bholley: i don't understand what you mean by "implementing the navigation restrictions as restrictions at property-access time"
  1384. # [23:58] <Hixie> bholley: that doesn't seem to match the spec at all
  1385. # [23:59] <bholley> Hixie: well, not as it stands now, no
  1386. # [23:59] <bholley> Hixie: but I'm wondering if there's a qualitative difference
  1387. # [23:59] <bholley> Hixie: other than the testcase in comment 6
  1388. # [23:59] * Joins: ap_ (~ap@17.114.104.132)
  1389. # [23:59] <Hixie> well that's the one i care about here :-)
  1390. # Session Close: Thu Mar 07 00:00:01 2013

The end :)