/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-04-01 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  223. # [09:44] <cdan> hello to everybody
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  252. # [10:56] <Ms2ger> Ah, geocities is restored to the CSSWG
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  286. # [12:28] <odinho> Ms2ger: Wat? They do geocities-css?
  287. # [12:29] <Ms2ger> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-values/
  288. # [12:32] <odinho> Ah, nice. I have a site like that somewhere on the intarwebs too, but that's in some cobweb-ridden place where the sun never shines.
  289. # [12:36] <odinho> lol, NO FEAR
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  295. # [13:14] <Philip`> Ms2ger: Looks nice, but needs more background MIDIs
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  312. # [14:25] <MikeSmit1> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lod/2013Apr/0014.html
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  370. # [16:56] <zewt> wow, the webkit api on android is in the dark ages (at least whatever version the fire has)
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  373. # [16:57] <zewt> seems like it doesn't even have history.replaceState
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  387. # [17:43] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  392. # [17:53] <Hixie_> jgraham: and yet surprisingly few issues, all told :-)
  393. # [17:56] <Ms2ger> Hixie_, ... yet :)
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  397. # [18:01] <free_mind> Can someone give me a pointer regarding a visual (WYSIWYG) editor on linux/BSD for changing a CSS template?
  398. # [18:01] <TabAtkins> odinho: Glad you caught the NO FEAR easter egg. ^_^
  399. # [18:01] <TabAtkins> <3 generated content
  400. # [18:03] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: I saw it in the commit :)
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  408. # [18:18] <odinho> TabAtkins: "the" it's quite a few places. Some of it fits, some of it not :-)
  409. # [18:19] <TabAtkins> odinho: It's just added on p::nth-child(10n+5)::after, so it'll show up everywhere.
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  427. # [18:57] <odinho> Yeah, saw that. :]
  428. # [18:57] <odinho> But the first time it came up it really made sense :]
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  430. # [18:57] <TabAtkins> Hahaha
  431. # [18:57] <odinho> So I wondered if it was actually part of the spec :P
  432. # [18:58] <TabAtkins> Also: oh man, I missed a lot of badass updates to NearlyFreeSpeech over the holiday. ipv6, https, and cron jobs!
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  442. # [19:21] <Hixie_> anyone around with IE?
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  444. # [19:21] <Hixie_> i just need to know which OPTION elements in the DOM tree view in http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2190 have #text children
  445. # [19:21] <Hixie_> in Chrome it's all of them, in Firefox it's all but the first
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  447. # [19:26] <Philip`> Hixie_: In IE9, I see #text on the last two
  448. # [19:26] <Hixie_> thanks
  449. # [19:26] <Hixie_> three browsers, three behaviours
  450. # [19:26] <Hixie_> lovely
  451. # [19:27] <Hixie_> IE's and Chrome's can be described in terms of default values
  452. # [19:27] <Hixie_> Firefox's...
  453. # [19:28] * Ms2ger wanders in
  454. # [19:28] <Ms2ger> What's up?
  455. # [19:29] <TabAtkins> Firefox has weird behavior for the Option constructor.
  456. # [19:29] <TabAtkins> It distinguishes between no argument and an empty string.
  457. # [19:29] <Ms2ger> It just looks at the number of arguments, sure
  458. # [19:29] * Ms2ger looks at the new code
  459. # [19:31] <Ms2ger> Same thing
  460. # [19:31] <Ms2ger> Hixie_, I'm pretty sure we're willing to match Chrome here
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  469. # [19:45] <Hixie_> Ms2ger: always create a text node? i was thinking of going with the IE behaviour of not creating the empty text node
  470. # [19:45] <Hixie_> the second argument is a weirder one, looks like we'll always have to check number of arguments for that one
  471. # [19:46] <Ms2ger> Always creating would be less code for us
  472. # [19:46] * Ms2ger asks bz
  473. # [19:47] <Hixie_> it's an additional if (val != '')
  474. # [19:47] <Ms2ger> Right
  475. # [19:47] <Hixie_> so let's put the implementation complexity issue aside and look at what authors want :-P
  476. # [19:47] <Ms2ger> That's the "less code" :)
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  478. # [19:48] <TabAtkins> I suspect (1) most authors don't care at all, but (2) more consistency in produced result is better.
  479. # [19:50] <Hixie_> having an extra object around that has no purpose seems pretty weird
  480. # [19:50] <Hixie_> you don't get this object if you use createElement()
  481. # [19:50] <TabAtkins> It's purpose is to contain the text contents!
  482. # [19:50] <Hixie_> or if you use innerHTML = '<option></option>'
  483. # [19:50] <TabAtkins> Yeah, and you can't fill anything with text with createElement() either.
  484. # [19:50] <Hixie_> the text contents can also go in the .label
  485. # [19:51] <Hixie_> e4h-style or quasis wouldn't give you an empty text node either
  486. # [19:51] <Hixie_> it would be specific to this constructor
  487. # [19:51] <Ms2ger> I guess textContent wouldn't create one either
  488. # [19:51] <Hixie_> yup
  489. # [19:51] <Hixie_> in fact it would remove it
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  496. # [19:54] <Ms2ger> Hixie_, alright, you get a "meh" from bz
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  499. # [19:58] <Hixie_> Ms2ger: heh
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  502. # [19:59] <annevk> Hixie_: optional boolean selected -> could make that default to false and simply set selectedness to it
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  506. # [20:02] <Hixie_> annevk: already done, see next checkin
  507. # [20:02] <Hixie_> well, the default is false
  508. # [20:02] <Hixie_> the text isn't changed
  509. # [20:03] <annevk> can you default to a value if the next argument does not default to a value?
  510. # [20:03] <Hixie_> i hope so
  511. # [20:04] <annevk> hmm, oh well, not going to read up on that today
  512. # [20:08] <Hixie_> no optional value is presumably just the same as " = <magic unforgeable value meaning attribute is omitted>"
  513. # [20:08] <TabAtkins> annevk: Most languages with positional argument disallow that - once one argument gains a default value, everything following has to have one (because otherwise it's not really a default value at all, since you're forced to fill it in).
  514. # [20:08] <Hixie_> s/attributes/argument/
  515. # [20:08] <TabAtkins> JS is a bit different, of course, since it fills in missing argument with undefined.
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  517. # [20:09] <TabAtkins> (Python is also different, because all positional arguments are *also* keyword arguments.)
  518. # [20:09] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: why are you forced to fill it in? i'm confused
  519. # [20:09] <Hixie_> oh you mean non-optional arguments
  520. # [20:09] <Hixie_> with default values
  521. # [20:09] <Hixie_> as opposed to optional arguments with default values like here
  522. # [20:09] <Hixie_> ok
  523. # [20:10] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: In most languages, there's no such thing as "non-optional arg with default values". ^_^
  524. # [20:10] <Hixie_> right
  525. # [20:10] <Hixie_> well, there is
  526. # [20:10] <Hixie_> it's all of them
  527. # [20:11] <Hixie_> it's more that there's no such thing as optional arg with default values
  528. # [20:11] <TabAtkins> If it's non-optional, that presumably means that you must fill it in. So, when would the default value ever happen?
  529. # [20:11] <TabAtkins> lolwut?
  530. # [20:11] <Hixie_> there's three states
  531. # [20:11] <Hixie_> present, absent but has a default value, and absent without a default value
  532. # [20:11] <Hixie_> some languages only have two of these
  533. # [20:12] <Hixie_> which i assume is what you mean
  534. # [20:12] <Hixie_> right?
  535. # [20:12] <Hixie_> whereas here we have all three
  536. # [20:12] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  537. # [20:12] <TabAtkins> Well, because in most, the third case is an error.
  538. # [20:12] <Hixie_> right
  539. # [20:12] <Hixie_> or it's equivalent to an overload
  540. # [20:12] <Hixie_> or rather, done as an overload
  541. # [20:13] <Hixie_> so you can't have arguments after an optional one without a default, since it's not there to be after
  542. # [20:13] <Hixie_> anyway
  543. # [20:13] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  544. # [20:14] * linclark|afk is now known as linclark
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  547. # [20:28] <Hixie_> what is with people filing bugs whose values consist only of copy-and-pasted text from the spec?
  548. # [20:28] <Hixie_> i don't get it
  549. # [20:29] <Hixie_> i wonder how to catch that
  550. # [20:29] <TabAtkins> They forgot to put "^^^ THIS" afterwards.
  551. # [20:29] <Hixie_> i'm guessing document.documentElement.textContent.match() isn't a good plan on a 5MB document...
  552. # [20:29] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: i mean e.g. https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21488
  553. # [20:30] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I know. I was being silly. ^_^
  554. # [20:30] <TabAtkins> But seriously, that's just dumb.
  555. # [20:31] <Hixie_> i don't understand how it happens
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  562. # [20:47] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: var() fallbacks can contain commas, right?
  563. # [20:48] <SimonSapin> either way, it should be explicit with both normative text and an example, not just implied by "same syntax as custom properties"
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  565. # [20:50] <SimonSapin> And if it can, is it really useful to have the parser split function arguments on commas? Isn’t it easier if functions arguments are a single list of tokens, and everything (other than var()) can use the "Parse a comma-separated list" algorithm?
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  573. # [21:20] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Maybe?
  574. # [21:21] <TabAtkins> Oh, and yes to your first question.
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  576. # [21:22] <SimonSapin> arguments are a single list of tokens in tinycss
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  582. # [21:31] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that probably makes more sense.
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  594. # [21:49] <SoWhat> Hi! Do you know when meta tag I added yesterday will be recognized by html5 validators?
  595. # [21:54] <MikeSmit1> SoWhat: what exacctly did you add?
  596. # [22:00] <SoWhat> web_author meta tag to the wiki
  597. # [22:00] <SoWhat> http://www.metatags.info/meta_name_webauthor
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  600. # [22:01] * MikeSmit1 is now known as MikeSmith
  601. # [22:02] <MikeSmith> Hixie_: big thanks for adding the "Tag omission in text/html" stuff
  602. # [22:03] * MikeSmith looks at SoWhat link
  603. # [22:04] <MikeSmith> SoWhat: why not just use name=author ?
  604. # [22:04] <SoWhat> author is totally different
  605. # [22:04] <SoWhat> http://www.metatags.info/meta_name_author
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  607. # [22:06] <Hixie_> MikeSmith: np
  608. # [22:07] <TabAtkins> SoWhat: The description of "author" and "webauthor" appear to be copy-pasted with only minor edits. I can't see any difference in them.
  609. # [22:07] * fishd_ is now known as fishd
  610. # [22:09] <MikeSmith> SoWhat: what TabAtkins said. This http://www.metatags.info/ site doesn't really look authorative. It sorta looks like on guy's personal wish list or something.
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  612. # [22:09] <tantek> MikeSmith, when have you ever seen an authorative .info site?
  613. # [22:10] <tantek> then again, meta tags themselves aren't very authoritative, so perhaps that makes sense
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  615. # [22:10] <Hixie_> annevk: any idea if adam is planning on updating WebOrigin to use the new URL spec?
  616. # [22:11] <SoWhat> you are probably right.. maybe I should invent developer meta tag instead of using web author?
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  618. # [22:11] <Hixie_> SoWhat: what problem are you trying to solve?
  619. # [22:11] <MikeSmith> tantek: true about .info sites
  620. # [22:11] <Hixie_> annevk: i'm in particular interested in how the host portion of origins, as used in document.domain, will handle IPv6 urls
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  623. # [22:12] <SoWhat> Hixie_: I just want to put my credits in source of websites which I have created
  624. # [22:12] <annevk> Hixie_: "[::1]" ?
  625. # [22:13] <annevk> Hixie_: I don't know Adam's plans. I've been thinking of putting all origin-related requirements into Fetch
  626. # [22:13] <tantek> Some people, when confronted with a problem, think "I know, I'll use a meta tag." Now they have a meta problem. [with apologies to jwz]
  627. # [22:14] <MikeSmith> Hixie_: oh wow I see you added the attribute short descriptions too
  628. # [22:15] <MikeSmith> thanks thanks thanks
  629. # [22:15] <MikeSmith> this is great
  630. # [22:18] <annevk> so how is that done? are they added dynamically or via some template?
  631. # [22:18] <annevk> they didn't appear in the diff
  632. # [22:18] <SoWhat> so what do you think about adding <meta name="developer" .. > ?
  633. # [22:19] <Hixie_> MikeSmith: my pleasure :-)
  634. # [22:19] <Hixie_> MikeSmith: you using them for something specific? :-)
  635. # [22:19] <Hixie_> SoWhat: what's wrong with a <!-- comment --> ?
  636. # [22:20] <SoWhat> there is no standart for web crawlers to index <!-- comment -->
  637. # [22:21] <Hixie_> you didn't say anything about crawlers indexing anything :-)
  638. # [22:21] <SoWhat> I want all my sites to be found in google later
  639. # [22:21] <Hixie_> ah, well, there's no way to guarantee that
  640. # [22:21] <Hixie_> but maybe look at google authorship markup?
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  642. # [22:22] <Hixie_> gotta go, hopefully tantek or someone will take over again :-)
  643. # [22:22] <Hixie_> bbiab
  644. # [22:22] <SoWhat> Hixie_: :) I don't want to see my face next to these sites :D
  645. # [22:23] <SoWhat> there is huge difference between person who is writing content for website and person/company who created website
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  647. # [22:24] <tantek> SoWhat - the fastest way to get your sites found in google is by publishing with open standards, in particular make sure each page has its updates posted in the HTML, with permalinks, and an equivalent feed in Atom, and the updates use PubsubHubbub to ping the Google hub.
  648. # [22:24] <tantek> using rel author is nice but not required
  649. # [22:24] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-author
  650. # [22:25] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: Separate ident/ident-rest states, isn’t that redundant with checking "starts with an identifier" before switching to the ident state?
  651. # [22:25] <SoWhat> ehh
  652. # [22:25] <SoWhat> tantek: do you know Wordpress?
  653. # [22:25] <SimonSapin> ie. could remove ident, rename ident-rest to ident, keep equivalent behavior
  654. # [22:26] <SoWhat> In wordpress you have lots of authors who are writing their posts
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  656. # [22:26] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: same with number/number-rest, maybe
  657. # [22:26] * Joins: barnabywalters (~barnabywa@157-157-61-238.static.simnet.is)
  658. # [22:26] <SoWhat> and in each post wordpress writes its author in rel=author
  659. # [22:26] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Probably. I was overly cautious with some of my states in the initial draft.
  660. # [22:27] <SimonSapin> well, the "starts with an identifier" arrived much later than ident/ident-rest
  661. # [22:27] <SimonSapin> but now that it’s there, I guess the rest can simplify
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  663. # [22:28] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I haven't fully simplified a lot of the stuff related to the "start with..." stuff.
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  670. # [22:31] <tantek> SoWhat - yes that makes sense for a multi-author / group blog
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  672. # [22:31] <tantek> it's best if they use rel=author to link from their posts to their own websites, and then use rel=me to link from their own website to their various social network profiles, Twitter, FB, G+, etc.
  673. # [22:32] <SoWhat> tantek: but there is only one person/company who has written code for this blog and I am this person for lots of websites
  674. # [22:33] <tantek> shouldn't need any "code" other than the <a href rel=author> markup
  675. # [22:34] <SoWhat> I just want to ask google "Show me websites with meta tag developer where content is SoWhat" and see all these websites I have developed
  676. # [22:34] <SoWhat> not posts where I am mentioned as author
  677. # [22:35] <SoWhat> so forget about author :)
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  688. # [22:46] <SoWhat> so when usually tags added to the wiki are recognized by HTML5 validators?
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  692. # [23:00] <tantek> SoWhat - there is no meat
  693. # [23:00] <tantek> meta
  694. # [23:00] <tantek> rel=author is not mentioned as author
  695. # [23:00] <tantek> but rather means that's who wrote it
  696. # [23:00] <tantek> SoWhat, re: "I am this person for lots of websites" - hence why you should use rel=author href=http://youpersonalwebsite.example.com
  697. # [23:00] <SoWhat> yes, there is no meta! Thats why I want to create it :)
  698. # [23:01] <tantek> that way they can all be aggregated as a single author
  699. # [23:01] <tantek> you don't want meta, you want visible links
  700. # [23:01] <tantek> meta is a bad way to do things
  701. # [23:01] <SoWhat> no
  702. # [23:01] <tantek> SoWhat, your use case has already been solved with visible hyperlinks and rel values
  703. # [23:01] <tantek> you don't need any new technology
  704. # [23:01] <tantek> whether meta or not
  705. # [23:02] <tantek> so stop trying to reinvent something when you don't need to
  706. # [23:02] <SoWhat> Imagine wordpress site where is author of some post and me
  707. # [23:03] <SoWhat> I don't write any posts, I write source of website so my name should not appear in rel=author
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  711. # [23:08] <pilgrim_google> well, i'm back
  712. # [23:08] * Quits: kinetik (~kinetik@121.99.34.38) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  713. # [23:08] <pilgrim_google> i grew a beard and got a tattoo
  714. # [23:08] <TabAtkins> Woo!
  715. # [23:08] <pilgrim_google> and i'm writing a game for the Apple //
  716. # [23:08] <TabAtkins> Both good moves, from experience.
  717. # [23:08] <nimbu> pilgrim_google: nice april fools joke :'(
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  730. # [23:25] <pilgrim_google> currently it boots to the title screen, plays some music, and then crashes
  731. # [23:26] <pilgrim_google> it's beta
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  734. # [23:29] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  735. # [23:30] <tantek> good afternoon whatwg
  736. # [23:30] <tantek> a few of us in #indiewebcamp (that happened to also be in #microformats) are discussing a few new rel values
  737. # [23:30] <tantek> wondered if anyone here has any naming / bikeshedding suggestions
  738. # [23:31] <tantek> this is for linking to the "current
  739. # [23:31] <tantek> version" of a page, or to the previous (historical) version of a page
  740. # [23:31] <tantek> details: http://microformats.org/wiki/version
  741. # [23:32] <tantek> or feel free to just make simple a/b suggestions,e.g. rel=version or rel=revision
  742. # [23:32] <tantek> rel=current or rel=latest
  743. # [23:32] <tantek> ?
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  746. # [23:32] <tantek> oh hey pilgrim_google, you know a few things about rel values ;)
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  750. # [23:36] <Hixie_> SoWhat: google doesn't have a mechanism to show all pages whose web dev was a particular person
  751. # [23:37] <Hixie_> SoWhat: so it doesn't matter what markup you use, if that's what you want
  752. # [23:37] <SoWhat> but it has a mechanism to show websites which use meta tag with particular value, right?
  753. # [23:38] * Quits: mattgiff_ (~mattgiffo@70.102.199.158) (Remote host closed the connection)
  754. # [23:39] <TabAtkins> No.
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  759. # [23:50] <SoWhat> okay, than there are other web crawlers which do that, for example, http://www.statsnext.com/domain/ditfi.lv and their stats are visible in google
  760. # [23:52] * Parts: free_mind (~free_mind@a80-100-218-127.adsl.xs4all.nl)
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  762. # [23:57] <Hixie_> SoWhat: looks like for that one it doesn't matter what meta name you use
  763. # [23:57] <Hixie_> they seem to expose all of them
  764. # [23:57] <Hixie_> or indeed HTTP headers
  765. # [23:58] <Hixie_> which is probably a better solution
  766. # [23:58] <Hixie_> since it'll survive their edits :-)
  767. # Session Close: Tue Apr 02 00:00:00 2013

The end :)