/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-04-15 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Apr 15 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  10. # [01:02] <Hixie> MikeSmith: you around?
  11. # [01:02] <MikeSmith> yup
  12. # [01:02] <Hixie> MikeSmith: can you change the default assignee for the webvtt component to nessy?
  13. # [01:03] <MikeSmith> sure
  14. # [01:03] <MikeSmith> will do right now
  15. # [01:03] <Hixie> thank you sir!
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  19. # [01:05] <MikeSmith> done now
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  21. # [01:05] <Hixie> woot
  22. # [01:05] <MikeSmith> should I change the assignee on the open bugs?
  23. # [01:05] <Hixie> i can do it
  24. # [01:05] <Hixie> it'll let me make sure i don't have any unexpected ones
  25. # [01:08] <Hixie> yay, down to 169 bugs
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  40. # [02:08] <nessy> cool :-)
  41. # [02:08] <nessy> now I can remove all the webvtt stuff from the html spec, too
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  106. # [07:27] <Hixie> is there a better way of checking that of three booleans, only one is true, than (not ((a and b) or (a and c) or (b and c)) ?
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  111. # [07:45] <SimonSapin> Hixie: your expression is also true if they’re all false, is that what you want?
  112. # [07:46] <jtcranmer> Hixie: (a xor b) and (b xor c) and (a xor c)?
  113. # [07:47] <jtcranmer> hmm
  114. # [07:47] <jtcranmer> (a xor b xor c) and not (a and b and c) ?
  115. # [07:47] <heycam> Hixie, if it's JS and you know your variables are booleans, you can do `a + b + c == 1`
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  118. # [07:50] <Hixie> it's perl and they're really integers
  119. # [07:51] <Hixie> SimonSapin: they can't be all false in this case, but good point
  120. # [07:51] <Hixie> i guess i could do a !! trick
  121. # [07:51] <Hixie> !!a + !!b + !!c == 1
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  215. # [10:59] <annevk5> marcosc: that success/error-callback thing in Midi looks like a future
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  218. # [11:02] <jgraham> annevk: You have turned into a bot
  219. # [11:02] <jgraham> :)
  220. # [11:02] <annevk> jgraham: I don't understand the question, "You have turned into a bot"
  221. # [11:02] <jgraham> Just need to add another bot that responds to "X looks like a future" with "and futures look like monads"
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  224. # [11:05] <Ms2ger> And monads look like my head just exploded, again
  225. # [11:05] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl12-178-12.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
  226. # [11:09] <jgraham> (fwiw http://stackoverflow.com/a/2704795 seems quite nice)
  227. # [11:10] <Ms2ger> Maybe I should read it...
  228. # [11:10] <Ms2ger> Once I figured out existential types
  229. # [11:10] <jgraham> (if one is looking for a practical introduction to Monads, albeit in C#)
  230. # [11:10] <jgraham> (Not that I really claim to understand and thing)
  231. # [11:11] <jgraham> *anything
  232. # [11:11] <Ms2ger> And that's a doctor...
  233. # [11:11] <annevk> just like Future is Future<any, any> I guess
  234. # [11:12] <annevk> and you can make it Future<MediaStream, DOMError>
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  236. # [11:12] <jgraham> (but what little I do underestand makes it clear why futures could/should/do form a monad)
  237. # [11:12] <annevk> and all the future composition stuff still applies, etc.
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  239. # [11:15] <asmodai> Do any of you know of a bug with Chrome and refreshing of pages that at some point causes it to lose its styling of said page?
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  244. # [11:28] <jgraham> darobin: "Any reason you *should* grab it and deploy"? Well maybe if you are insane and like running untested code in production?
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  246. # [11:29] <darobin> jgraham: there's another way of doing development?
  247. # [11:30] * Parts: a-ja (~Instantbi@70.230.144.183)
  248. # [11:30] <jgraham> So I hear :)
  249. # [11:30] <darobin> jgraham: to clarify, my question was because I couldn't tell from your comments how prod-ready you thought it was
  250. # [11:30] <darobin> you said untested, but at the same time you seemed to say it was pretty close to being ok
  251. # [11:30] <Ms2ger> The usual Knuth quote?
  252. # [11:31] <Ms2ger> "Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
  253. # [11:31] <jgraham> It's untested. So it probably has all the usual types of errors that untested python code has e.g. arguments not matching, etc.
  254. # [11:31] <darobin> "Who are you and what are you doing in my bedroom?" // that one?
  255. # [11:31] <darobin> hehe
  256. # [11:31] <jgraham> But I don't know of any missing parts to the code
  257. # [11:31] <darobin> for reference http://xkcd.com/163/
  258. # [11:32] <darobin> ok, so maybe a bit of testing before deployment would be useful
  259. # [11:32] <jgraham> I recommend setting up a test repo somewhere, mirroring that somewhere (doesn't even have to be public facing) and seeing if the commands work as expected
  260. # [11:32] <jgraham> and it responds in the right way to new PRs and so on
  261. # [11:33] <jgraham> I should have done this, but I did something else instead :)
  262. # [11:33] <jgraham> No idea what
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  265. # [11:33] <Ms2ger> Drink?
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  313. # [13:44] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: here
  314. # [13:45] <jgraham> That's some slow-acting magic right there
  315. # [13:45] <odinho> glacier
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  323. # [14:14] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, still here?
  324. # [14:14] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: yep
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  326. # [14:14] <Ms2ger> http://w3c-test.org/web-platform-tests/master/html/webappapis/scripting/processing-model-2/body-onerror-compile-error-data-url.html
  327. # [14:15] <Ms2ger> Since you submitted that test, want to explain it? :)
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  329. # [14:18] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: explain why the arguments should be tainted? or something else?
  330. # [14:18] * Joins: emailshwetank (~shwetank@14.98.248.96)
  331. # [14:18] <Ms2ger> I guess that's what it comes down to, yes
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  335. # [14:22] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: it seems the spec has changed since the test was written
  336. # [14:22] <Ms2ger> \o/
  337. # [14:23] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: when it was written, the "report the error" algorithm compared the origin of the URL of the script with the origin of the script's document to decide whether to mute
  338. # [14:23] <Ms2ger> I see
  339. # [14:24] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: now the spec supports CORS and the muted-ness of data: has changed
  340. # [14:25] <Ms2ger> You don't happen to feel like updating the test? :)
  341. # [14:25] * Joins: baku (~baku@95.169.240.154)
  342. # [14:26] <zcorpan> first i want to ponder if the spec change can cause new security problems
  343. # [14:27] <zcorpan> the only thing i can think of is something that redirects to a data: URL, but that should be considered cross-origin (known bug)
  344. # [14:29] <zcorpan> there should be some CORS test here too
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  346. # [14:31] <zcorpan> is the process the same for minor bugfixes like this as for any other test submission?
  347. # [14:32] <Ms2ger> I think so, yes
  348. # [14:32] <zcorpan> ok
  349. # [14:33] <darobin> the process is whatever we want to make it, keep that in mind
  350. # [14:33] * jgraham wants the process to be "darobin reviews all tests"
  351. # [14:33] <darobin> as a rule, if it's substantive even if small I think it's better if there's a bit of review
  352. # [14:33] * darobin thinks jgraham missed the "we" bit :)
  353. # [14:34] <darobin> but if it's just a quick and obvious fix I would say you can just push
  354. # [14:34] <darobin> or, put differently, the process is "be fucking sensible" :)
  355. # [14:34] <jgraham> My view is that getting review for small changes is no big deal because small changes can be reviewed synchronously anyway
  356. # [14:34] <zcorpan> my biggest issue is naming the branch :-P
  357. # [14:34] <zcorpan> submission/Opera/onerror-data-url-muted-bugfix
  358. # [14:35] <zcorpan> what if i want to do another bugfix?
  359. # [14:35] <jgraham> But it is OK to just push whitespace changes and typo fixes and similar
  360. # [14:35] <Ms2ger> But what if the typo was essential to the test?
  361. # [14:36] <jgraham> Then you shouldn't have named a variable "outlinee"
  362. # [14:36] <jgraham> But seriously, it's OK to have failure modes
  363. # [14:36] <jgraham> I mean review is a long way from perfect
  364. # [14:37] <Ms2ger> :D
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  366. # [14:37] <jgraham> But the goal is a) to reduce the incidence of bad tests and b) to make sure multiple people actually know what tests we have and how they work
  367. # [14:38] <jgraham> It isn't to prevent all possible errors
  368. # [14:38] <jgraham> (if we wanted that we would, um, well actually I don't know.
  369. # [14:38] <jgraham> Have formal proofs and tests in Coq?)
  370. # [14:39] <odinho> zcorpan: You don't need to call it that, because you should have the branch in your personal fork anyway.
  371. # [14:39] * Ms2ger wonders why jgraham enjoys talking about Coq so much)
  372. # [14:40] <MikeSmith> cool, when I try to to start my firefox nightly, I just get a window with an error: "XML Parsing Error: undefined entity Location: chrome://browser/content/browser.xul Line Number 506, Column 9"
  373. # [14:40] <odinho> zcorpan: You can call the branch bamboo-bowser if you so please, and then do a PR.
  374. # [14:40] <MikeSmith> and then I don't get any browser chrome at all so can't actually navigate to anything
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  376. # [14:40] <odinho> zcorpan: The reason we have the submission branches right now is because we had some stuff already submitted and needed branches for those :-)
  377. # [14:42] <zcorpan> odinho: but my branch name will be visible in the PR right?
  378. # [14:42] <odinho> zcorpan: Yes. :-) But not really highlighted.
  379. # [14:43] <odinho> zcorpan: So don't call your public branch too offensive things.
  380. # [14:43] <darobin> are we moving on to making profound jokes about how jgraham likes Coq?
  381. # [14:43] <jgraham> FWIW the only thing that's annoying in PR branch names is overuse of "master"
  382. # [14:43] <jgraham> git has local branches for a reason, people
  383. # [14:43] <odinho> zcorpan: You can, however, call your local ones offensive things, and then just push to a more neutral name for the public repo. :-) git push origin omg_i_hatez_jgraham:shiny_ponies
  384. # [14:43] <jgraham> This is not mercurial
  385. # [14:44] <darobin> MikeSmith: where we're going, the browser is everything — you don't need chrome. Firefox is just showing you the future there.
  386. # [14:44] <zcorpan> submission/odinhos-mom-so-fat-she-would-break-a-branch
  387. # [14:44] <odinho> zcorpan: You got it! :D
  388. # [14:44] <darobin> haha
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  392. # [14:56] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/82
  393. # [14:56] <Ms2ger> Thanks
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  416. # [15:43] <annevk> Ms2ger: I put fetch in a separate file for now
  417. # [15:44] <annevk> Ms2ger: and put all CORS references towards W3C/TR/cors
  418. # [15:44] <annevk> A little unfortunate that rewriting CORS takes the "living" bit out of it, but it was fairly stable anyway.
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  420. # [15:57] <Ms2ger> annevk, *shrug*
  421. # [15:57] <Ms2ger> On another note, Hixie takes bug reports on IRC now?
  422. # [15:57] <Ms2ger> (re http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=7832&to=7833)
  423. # [15:57] <annevk> Ms2ger: shrug what?
  424. # [15:57] <annevk> Ms2ger: me making xref work again?
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  426. # [15:57] <Ms2ger> annevk, CORS pointing to TR
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  428. # [15:58] <annevk> Ms2ger: didn't really see a better way for now
  429. # [15:58] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  430. # [15:59] <Ms2ger> You're 80% done with killing it anyway, no? ;)
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  432. # [15:59] <annevk> that's the Q2 goal, 80% is about the level of done-ness CORS has now, so then I can update the references and everything :)
  433. # [16:00] <annevk> One of the big problems with Fetch will be that the interface is somewhat different because we've used so many different conventions in the past
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  435. # [16:02] <darobin> annevk: are you thinking of specific compatibility issues for new HTMLH1Element beyond toString()?
  436. # [16:03] <darobin> because I reckon it's not the end of the world if we say it that it always returns "[object HTMLHeadingElement]"
  437. # [16:04] <darobin> there's __proto__ but I'd be a bit surprised if that showed up
  438. # [16:05] <gsnedders> instanceof is more likely.
  439. # [16:05] <gsnedders> Or just constructor directly.
  440. # [16:05] <darobin> well instanceof HTMLHeadingElement would still be true
  441. # [16:05] * gsnedders hasn't read enough context
  442. # [16:05] <darobin> the thing is I wonder if people actually access constructor for non-constructable objects
  443. # [16:05] <jgraham> I don't think there was any context given
  444. # [16:06] <annevk> darobin: no, just "change" is dangerous
  445. # [16:06] <annevk> when it comes to compat anyway
  446. # [16:06] <annevk> but we should try
  447. # [16:06] <darobin> yeah, I know, but we try to guess impact
  448. # [16:06] <annevk> jgraham: you're not reading your email synchronously with IRC?
  449. # [16:07] <darobin> I guess there could be people doing el.constructor === HTMLHeadingElement instead of instanceof
  450. # [16:07] <Ms2ger> annevk, quite the conservative :)
  451. # [16:08] <annevk> Ms2ger: can we kill hasAttributes() now?
  452. # [16:08] <Ms2ger> I'd be happy to
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  454. # [16:08] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
  455. # [16:08] <annevk> Ms2ger: how hard it is to measure its usage?
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  457. # [16:09] <annevk> Ms2ger: we could at least do the thing BlinKit did, move it to Element
  458. # [16:09] <Ms2ger> annevk, I think AryehGregor did telemetry for Range.detach, it's probably feasible to crib from that
  459. # [16:09] <annevk> Ms2ger: should I file a bug for you?
  460. # [16:10] <annevk> I wonder when we're gonna try Attr exodus
  461. # [16:10] <Ms2ger> Sure, I'll add it to the bottom of my todo list :)
  462. # [16:10] <Ms2ger> Line 350 or so
  463. # [16:10] <annevk> right
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  474. # [16:23] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, what was the motivation for https://github.com/gsnedders/py-regexp-builder btw?
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  476. # [16:28] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Originally? No idea. Now? Partly the fact it had lain around for too long, and partly to build regexp of all "invisible" characters.
  477. # [16:28] <Ms2ger> I see
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  479. # [16:43] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Too slow to run on each load with CPython (~0.7s to build it, mostly spent iterating over the whole codespace and checking category), but takes ~0.1s with PyPy
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  481. # [16:48] <gsnedders> (Down to ~0.5s with CPython, no difference with PyPy)
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  484. # [16:54] * marcosc thinks someone needs to W3C meme this: https://github.com/darobin/respec/pull/197#issuecomment-16381951
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  486. # [16:55] <Ms2ger> People are idiots
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  488. # [16:55] <Ms2ger> News at 11
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  492. # [16:57] <annevk> Film at 11, idiot
  493. # [16:57] <annevk> Badum-tish!
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  496. # [17:00] <annevk> marcosc: it's like it's 2004 again with stuff like that
  497. # [17:01] <Ms2ger> annevk, :D
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  499. # [17:01] <annevk> marcosc: so yeah man, last decade didn't happen, stable pointers are much more important than whatever you learned meanwhile
  500. # [17:02] <jgraham> 2004, or 2014 at W3C
  501. # [17:03] <marcosc> :)
  502. # [17:03] <annevk> It's like visiting a third world country, technology is about a decade behind. DVDs are still hip and you don't have to look hard to find VHS.
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  506. # [17:06] <marcosc> I was in Greece the other day, and the airport X-Ray machine assured me that it was safe for diskettes.
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  508. # [17:06] <marcosc> It has very helpful picture... oh, and film too... but only some types.
  509. # [17:07] <annevk> I almost jokingly added France to that sentence. Went to a club there once on vacation, the "pop" music was from about seven years ago.
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  511. # [17:08] <annevk> To be fair, that was not in Paris, but somewhere middle-of-nowhere.
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  513. # [17:08] <darobin> you completely missed the point annevk
  514. # [17:08] <darobin> the *whole* point of provincial clubs in France is to have dated music
  515. # [17:08] <darobin> it's as hip as it gets
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  517. # [17:09] <darobin> the whole "latest and greatest DJ" parisian routine is so tedious
  518. # [17:09] <annevk> darobin: aw man, I guess that's why my French teacher kept making fun of me
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  520. # [17:09] <darobin> I seriously would only consider going to a club in France if it's outside Pari
  521. # [17:09] <darobin> *Paris
  522. # [17:09] <darobin> it's all wedding music
  523. # [17:10] <darobin> meaning you can booze your head off and dance like a moron
  524. # [17:10] <marcosc> you mean, they wouldn't laugh at my dancing there?
  525. # [17:10] <marcosc> you mean, I could be free like a dancing butterfly?
  526. # [17:11] <annevk> darobin: I've found you don't require a club for that
  527. # [17:11] <darobin> marcosc: exactly
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  529. # [17:12] <darobin> annevk: well, I don't require a club for that, but in a parisian club I'd promptly get kicked out :)
  530. # [17:12] <annevk> hehe
  531. # [17:14] <jgraham> Parisian clubs are for eating cheese?
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  533. # [17:16] <darobin> they're for cheese eating surrender monkeys for sure
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  590. # [18:19] <zcorpan> is there an up-to-date table inspector that implements the spec's td-th mapping?
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  592. # [18:20] <zcorpan> james.html5.org is no more
  593. # [18:21] <zcorpan> jgraham: do you have http://james.html5.org/tables/table_inspector.html around somewhere?
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  607. # [18:41] <jgraham> zcorpan: So I don't know what happened to that code. Maybe it is on some other computer. I will have a look
  608. # [18:41] <zcorpan> jgraham: if you find it, please dump it on github or something :-)
  609. # [18:42] <Hixie> ms2ger: if i happen to notice it and happen to not have any edits open and happen to be in the mood... which is to say, don't count on it :-)
  610. # [18:43] <jgraham> zcorpan: Sure
  611. # [18:43] <zcorpan> why does Audio API need the legacy constants?
  612. # [18:43] <annevk> oh wtf
  613. # [18:43] <annevk> public-svg-wg has a limited mailing list?
  614. # [18:43] <annevk> that's super annoying
  615. # [18:43] <annevk> (limited as in subscribers only)
  616. # [18:44] <zcorpan> or why does Audio API want to use both legacy constants and strings instead of picking one or the other?
  617. # [18:44] <shepazu> annevk, it's only for logistics, the technical talk happens on www-svg
  618. # [18:45] <annevk> oh, forgot about www-svg :/
  619. # [18:46] * annevk forwards
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  622. # [18:47] <annevk> ta shepazu
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  627. # [18:56] <annevk> I do agree with jgraham. The longer that thread goes on, the more it reads like TC39 should just fold into W3C...
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  638. # [19:10] <MikeSmith> win 11
  639. # [19:11] <MikeSmith> annevk: so we seriously should help do that
  640. # [19:12] <annevk> zcorpan: they want to move to new API-style, but don't break compat?
  641. # [19:12] <zcorpan> annevk: who?
  642. # [19:12] <annevk> zcorpan: Audio
  643. # [19:14] <zcorpan> annevk: ah. yeah, i guess. everywhere else we haven't done that, though, we just didn't change the legacy APIs and changed over completely the APIs that were not widely used yet
  644. # [19:14] <annevk> I expect we'll get new APIs going forward for various unchanged legacy stuff
  645. # [19:14] <zcorpan> annevk: i'm not convinced that supporting both will end up being a win since it means both will be used in the wild and authors will be more confused
  646. # [19:14] <annevk> e.g. new APIs for network requests that don't suck as much
  647. # [19:15] <annevk> zcorpan: given that not everyone has implemented the Audio API I'm kinda surprised about the compat
  648. # [19:15] <annevk> zcorpan: I guess iOS shipped with it...
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  650. # [19:15] <zcorpan> yeah i would have thought it isn't widely used yet
  651. # [19:18] <GPHemsley> TIL <blink> is not in any spec
  652. # [19:19] <Hixie> it's in html
  653. # [19:20] <Hixie> http://whatwg.org/html#blink
  654. # [19:20] <annevk> Hixie: we killed it from Gecko btw
  655. # [19:20] <annevk> s/from/in/
  656. # [19:21] <Hixie> lame
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  658. # [19:21] <annevk> *shrug* ;)
  659. # [19:21] <GPHemsley> Hixie: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=857820#c57
  660. # [19:22] <Hixie> the parser did something with blink?
  661. # [19:22] <Hixie> o_O
  662. # [19:23] <annevk> looks like the old Gecko parser
  663. # [19:23] <Hixie> the only requirement in the html spec is that the ua.css file have blink { text-decoration: blink }
  664. # [19:23] <GPHemsley> Hixie: I was referring to this: "And also, <blink> element isn't defined any Web Standard specs."
  665. # [19:24] <Hixie> GPHemsley: what about it?
  666. # [19:24] <Hixie> people not knowing what's in all the specs is hardly surprising, there's tons of them and they're long. :-)
  667. # [19:25] <GPHemsley> Oh, are we splitting hairs about "in" vs. "defined in"?
  668. # [19:25] * Hixie barely knows what's in the HTML spec, let alone anything else :-)
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  670. # [19:26] * annevk comments
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  673. # [19:28] <zcorpan> there are surprisingly few uses of `const` in html
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  676. # [19:29] <zcorpan> maybe the parser thing is about HTMLElement vs HTMLUnknownElement?
  677. # [19:31] * GPHemsley had no idea <marquee> had so many possibilities.
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  682. # [19:35] <zcorpan> i wish browsers would do a better job at animating the <marquee> instead of doing 10 pixel jumps like it's 1994
  683. # [19:36] <Hixie> ah yeah maybe <blink> is now HTMLUnknownElement
  684. # [19:36] <Hixie> spec does say it should be HTMLElement
  685. # [19:36] <Hixie> but i can add it to the list of Unknowns if nobody does that
  686. # [19:38] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2214 - opera/gecko HTMLElement, safari/chrome HTMLUnknownElement
  687. # [19:40] <Hixie> in other news, how should we handle changing the start/end times on a cue
  688. # [19:40] <Hixie> essentially remove the cue and re-add it?
  689. # [19:40] <Hixie> even if that moves it around?
  690. # [19:40] <Hixie> or should we try hard not to move it
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  692. # [19:40] <Hixie> also we still don't show cues when they are added if they should be active, iirc
  693. # [19:41] <zcorpan> in IE10 it's "HTMLPhraseElement"
  694. # [19:41] <Hixie> wtf is HTMLPhraseElement
  695. # [19:42] <zcorpan> i asked about this a few years ago. apparently they had these interfaces internally all along, but didn't expose them until IE8 or some such, when catching up with the specs
  696. # [19:42] <zcorpan> and they didn't prioritize matching the spec exactly, or something
  697. # [19:42] <Hixie> ...ok
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  699. # [19:43] <GPHemsley> "Implements the document object model (DOM) representation of the phrase elements such as em, strong, dfn, code, samp, kbd, var, cite, abbr, and acronym." http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ie/hh869728%28v=vs.85%29.aspx
  700. # [19:44] <Hixie> hmm... we do support _removing_ cues dynamically
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  702. # [19:45] <zcorpan> Hixie: i think moving cues around when changing the times isn't a problem
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  704. # [19:45] <Hixie> well if all you're doing is extending the end time
  705. # [19:45] <Hixie> it'd be sad if it moved
  706. # [19:46] <Hixie> i think in practice we don't need to move
  707. # [19:46] <Hixie> i just need to check if the active flag should be set, and repaint the cues if it changed
  708. # [19:46] <Hixie> the question is more about events
  709. # [19:46] <Hixie> i'm thinking we don't fire events if you manually change the time and active changes
  710. # [19:46] <zcorpan> oh moving it can change the rendering huh... didn't consider that. i was just thinking of "move" as in placement in the list of cues
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  713. # [19:47] <Hixie> right
  714. # [19:47] <Hixie> e.g. if the cue was placed in a suboptimal place, then all the other cues went away
  715. # [19:48] <zcorpan> then i think i agree
  716. # [19:49] <Hixie> or... _or_... we could run the "When the current playback position of a media element changes" steps
  717. # [19:49] <Hixie> and that would fire all the events magically! and update the active flag and everything!
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  720. # [19:49] <Hixie> oh this is so the right solution
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  723. # [19:50] <Hixie> yes yes yes, this is the way to do it.
  724. # [19:51] <Hixie> ok i need a name for this algorithm
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  726. # [19:51] <Hixie> "the 'time moves on' steps"?
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  728. # [19:52] <Hixie> ok unless someone has a better idea, i'm calling these the /time marches on/ steps.
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  738. # [20:05] <Hixie> hm, can you have a texttrack without a media element...
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  741. # [20:06] <Hixie> i guess so, orphan <track> for one
  742. # [20:06] <Hixie> hmm
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  754. # [20:17] <Hixie> are there any APIs (e.g. XHR maybe?) that do the blob: delayed preservation magic needed for https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17765 ?
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  756. # [20:19] <annevk> Hixie: there's no blob URL special casing anywhere currently
  757. # [20:20] <annevk> Hixie: we want to lift the same-origin restrictions on blob URLs (make them work similar to data URLs, which when pasted in somewhere, work)
  758. # [20:20] <Hixie> the origin thing seems orthogonal
  759. # [20:21] * Hixie doesn't really want to be the first one to do this special casing for blob:
  760. # [20:21] <annevk> Hixie: except that we track the revoking thing on a per-global basis
  761. # [20:21] <Hixie> and i find it hard to believe that all the specs are going to be updated for this
  762. # [20:21] <Hixie> like, is CSSOM going to say that when you set 'border-image-source', you have to do something special?
  763. # [20:21] <annevk> Hixie: implementers have to decide what to do here I think
  764. # [20:22] <annevk> Hixie: zewt suggested adding this to the URL parser, but I'm not sure if that actually solves the issue as that can be delayed in CSS too
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  766. # [20:23] <Hixie> jesus wept, what happened on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17842
  767. # [20:23] <Hixie> 53 book-length comments
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  769. # [20:24] <Hixie> well the actual semantics here are imho very weird, urls are supposed to be idempotent and this breaks that invariant
  770. # [20:24] <annevk> Hixie: basically, I think the whole autoRevoke thing is kind of a joke
  771. # [20:25] <Hixie> not a joke, but yeah, i'm rather skeptical of it
  772. # [20:25] <Hixie> but i don't have a better proposal
  773. # [20:25] <annevk> has it been implemented?
  774. # [20:25] <Hixie> no idea
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  776. # [20:26] <annevk> basically currently it seems it cannot work as starting a fetch will do that fetch async
  777. # [20:26] <annevk> except for sync XHR
  778. # [20:26] <annevk> so if UAs implemented it, they'd break sites
  779. # [20:27] <annevk> because autoRevoke was not the default before
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  782. # [20:28] <Hixie> hm?
  783. # [20:29] <Hixie> in other news, i think it's possible some people think that the more they talk about a feature, the more likely it is that it'll get added to the spec
  784. # [20:29] <Hixie> but since i deal with bugs on a least-recently-touched basis, it actually has the opposite effect...
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  790. # [20:32] <annevk> Hixie: createObjectURL() in the spec defaults to autoRevoke true; that's not implemented atm afaik
  791. # [20:33] <annevk> Hixie: also, <img>.src = blobURL will always load async, at which point blobURL is already revoked
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  795. # [20:44] <marcosc> Hixie, re: Bug 17842 ... it's not the case that people are just bla bla-ing to make it seem important. It's actually quite controversial what is being asked in the bug... because of how radios on mobiles work.
  796. # [20:45] <annevk> Hixie: I'm emailing webapps
  797. # [20:45] <marcosc> Hixie: in summary, we want a "lazy" attribute :) Lazy === hey browser, load it when you want.
  798. # [20:46] <zcorpan> marcosc: Hixie's just saying that if you want him to look at the bug, you need to stop adding more comments
  799. # [20:46] <marcosc> zcorpan: I know, totally get that.
  800. # [20:47] <marcosc> zcorpan: what I was trying to say was that the original bug had made some incorrect assumptions, so lots of people had opinions about it.
  801. # [20:47] <marcosc> I was actually going to jump in the other day to tell them to stop proposing solutions and just wait for Hixie
  802. # [20:48] <marcosc> But some good new material was actually brought forward
  803. # [20:48] <marcosc> so it was better to just leave the conversation going
  804. # [20:48] <zcorpan> also, in my experience saying "stop talking" doesn't work but just adds more noise :-P
  805. # [20:49] <marcosc> heh, rock and a hard place
  806. # [20:49] <marcosc> I think we reached consensus in the bug, so either Ilya or Yoav should be able to provide Hixie with a summary
  807. # [20:50] <zcorpan> if you know of someone wanting to implement it right now, you can ask Hixie to fast track the bug
  808. # [20:53] <marcosc> zcorpan: yeah, I don't know of any actual interest from browser folks.
  809. # [20:53] <zcorpan> ok
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  811. # [20:54] <marcosc> I mean, there a few people form Google, at least one from Opera, ... but I guess until there is actual bugs filed in the right places...
  812. # [20:55] <Hixie> annevk: the idea zewt was putting forward was that <img>.src = blobURL should cause the load to be sync so that the data was preserved for that <img>, iiuc
  813. # [20:55] <Hixie> marcosc: oh i wasn't suggesting it was just bla bla, sorry if that was the implication!
  814. # [20:56] <annevk> Hixie: hmm maybe we could make http://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-fetch work that way
  815. # [20:56] <annevk> Hixie: even so, that doesn't solve it for CSS I think
  816. # [20:57] <Hixie> annevk: yeah, i dunno. arun and zewt are the right people to figure out the solution, i'm just hoping another spec fixes it first because i don't want to be the trailblazer here when i'm skeptical anyone else will follow.
  817. # [20:57] <annevk> Hixie: I don't think you should fix it
  818. # [20:57] <annevk> Hixie: it should either happen in fetch or URL
  819. # [20:57] <annevk> Hixie: and everyone will have to invoke fetch synchronously I suppose, but that's okay
  820. # [20:58] <Hixie> well that would be even better, sure. right now that doesn't fit the proposa.
  821. # [20:58] <Hixie> proposal.
  822. # [20:59] <Hixie> in other news: does anyone recall/know if the difference in <a>'s activation behaviour and <area>'s activation behaviour, with respect to how to handle target="" in sandbox=""ed iframes, is intentional or not? :-)
  823. # [21:00] * JohnAlbin is now known as JohnAlbin_zzzzzz
  824. # [21:01] <Hixie> looks like i just forgot <area> when fixing http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13894
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  827. # [21:02] <annevk> Hixie: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013AprJun/0242.html (re blob URLs)
  828. # [21:03] <Hixie> well we can't always invoke fetch
  829. # [21:04] <zcorpan> hsivonen: MikeSmith: is there a story for automated tests for v.nu yet?
  830. # [21:04] <Hixie> e.g. <img> might want to delay forever if we add this new defer=""
  831. # [21:04] <Hixie> and <embed> has to fetch async for compat reasons
  832. # [21:04] <Hixie> (base url has to be resolved after setting)
  833. # [21:04] <Hixie> (after settings source url, that is)
  834. # [21:04] <Hixie> typos galore!
  835. # [21:05] <annevk> re-resolved?
  836. # [21:05] <annevk> Hixie: you can invoke fetch sync and then still wait
  837. # [21:06] <Hixie> how does that work?
  838. # [21:06] <annevk> Hixie: the only thing invoking fetch would do is take a reference to the object and then return early
  839. # [21:06] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: from W3C we have a GSOC proposal for a student to do some work related to that, and we have a great candidate who's submitted an GSOC application for it already
  840. # [21:06] <Hixie> yes my point is we don't even want to resolve the url in some cases
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  842. # [21:06] <Hixie> e.g. <embed>
  843. # [21:06] <annevk> Hixie: or <a href> I suppose
  844. # [21:06] <Hixie> and in some cases we don't know what url to resolve, e.g. <img srcset>
  845. # [21:06] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: http://www.w3.org/2013/03/gsoc2013#guidelines
  846. # [21:07] <Hixie> especially <img srcset defer>
  847. # [21:07] <Hixie> or whatever we call it
  848. # [21:07] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: http://www.w3.org/2013/03/gsoc2013#validator-nu-testing
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  851. # [21:07] <annevk> mkay
  852. # [21:08] <Hixie> like, what should we do if someone sets an img srcset to "blob:a 1x blob:b 2x blob:c 3x" ?
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  854. # [21:08] <Hixie> er, with commas
  855. # [21:08] <Hixie> you get the idea
  856. # [21:08] <annevk> you figure out which to fetch and do it?
  857. # [21:09] <Hixie> and you don't revoke the other two?
  858. # [21:09] <Hixie> what if the user zooms in and out, or moves the window across to a low res screen then a high res screen?
  859. # [21:09] <Hixie> do you still have the images around? when do you forget them?
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  861. # [21:11] <annevk> when you run the autorevoke stuff
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  864. # [21:12] <annevk> not sure there's much winning to be had here
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  866. # [21:18] <Hixie> MikeSmith: re https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21553#c9, by '"the main content" of each <article> (currently marked up as <li> with class="postitem".)', i meant the parenthetical to apply to "<article>", not to "the main content of each <article>".
  867. # [21:18] <Hixie> sorry for the ambiguity
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  871. # [21:24] <MikeSmith> Hixie: ah, OK
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  877. # [21:32] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: nice. keep me updated on that :-)
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  881. # [21:34] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: it would be nice if tests could be written to be validator-agnostic and live on web-platform-tests or so
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  889. # [21:39] <zcorpan> though maybe people following web-platform-tests don't want validator tests there
  890. # [21:39] <jgraham> Well
  891. # [21:39] <jgraham> I don't plan to review them at least
  892. # [21:39] <jgraham> But with critic filters I don't have to!
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  944. # [23:06] <annevk> '[The "or" operator is not yet supported by ReSpec.]'
  945. # [23:06] <annevk> I don't even
  946. # [23:06] <jsbell> annevk: context?
  947. # [23:06] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Apr/0029.html
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  949. # [23:07] <Hixie> o_O
  950. # [23:08] <annevk> ReSpec makes specs both way harder to read and then it does not even let you write a spec in the right way
  951. # [23:08] <jsbell> Seems to "work" for me, although in (foo or bar) foo and bar don't end up linked correctly. That said, linking to webidl default types seems broken in respec anyway at the moment (reported to robin)
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  980. # [23:52] <Hixie> TabAtkins: ping https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18026 comment 8 paragraph 2
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  986. # Session Close: Tue Apr 16 00:00:00 2013

The end :)