/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-04-19 / end

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  74. # [01:35] <aleray> hi, I'm trying to create an html scrapper using html5lib in python. After parsing the page, I often get broken html. Here is a minimal example: http://dpaste.com/1064087/ is there anything wrong with it?
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  79. # [01:40] <zewt> why are you scrapping poor innocent htmls
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  83. # [01:41] <aleray> zewt, the big picture is tu create a script that can "freeze" webpages by applying external css inline.
  84. # [01:41] <aleray> and "cut" fragments using xpath
  85. # [01:42] <aleray> anyway I need to parse arbitrary html
  86. # [01:43] <aleray> the nytimes is a good exemple of complex page
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  88. # [01:45] <aleray> it works on simple pages but easily breaks on more complex pages
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  95. # [01:51] <hober> how is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-script-coord/2013AprJun/0165.html not a meme yet
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  97. # [01:51] <TabAtkins> Get on it, dude.
  98. # [01:51] <hober> i tried to come up with a billie jean / mj one, but failed
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  100. # [01:52] <hober> I'm just, just... NOT FUNNY ENOUGH! *sob*
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  102. # [01:52] <othermaciej> sure, picture MJ moonwalking, top caption "HTML5", bottom caption "is not your child"
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  104. # [01:54] <othermaciej> or same captions, but this image http://theyuppiedilemma.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/creepy-white-van.jpg
  105. # [01:54] <aleray> zewt, other, no idea?
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  107. # [01:54] <aleray> it works well in my browser so why is html5lib not digesting malformed html?
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  123. # [02:18] <TabAtkins> aleray: The html5lib authors are in Europe, so probably aren't watching the channel now.
  124. # [02:18] <aleray> ok
  125. # [02:18] <aleray> be right back tommorow then
  126. # [02:19] <aleray> thanks
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  309. # [08:27] <zcorpan> is there a pull request for https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/tree/master/old-tests/submission/Opera/media ? i didn't find anything in the list of pull requests
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  334. # [08:59] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: shouldn't StreamInit be EventStreamInit etc?
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  362. # [09:47] <jgraham> zcorpan: I can't see any evidence of a PR for those tests
  363. # [09:48] <jgraham> By which I mean "I can't see a commit that modifies that path except for the one that created it", so it is possible that my git0fu is just too weak
  364. # [09:50] <jgraham> zcorpan: You should make one :)
  365. # [09:50] <jgraham> (I think the problem might have been that it wasn't clear what "the right place" for those tests was)
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  392. # [10:39] <aleray> hi, I'm trying to create an html scrapper using html5lib in python. After parsing the page, I often get broken html. Here is a minimal example: http://dpaste.com/1064087/ is there anything wrong with it?
  393. # [10:40] <jgraham> Define "broken html"?
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  396. # [10:50] <aleray> jgraham, html i didn't write :P
  397. # [10:51] <jgraham> aleray: html5lib doesn't make any guarantees that the output conforms to authoring requirements. All it promises is that given random mal-formed input, the tree created will be the same as the DOM tree in browsers.
  398. # [10:52] <jgraham> It is quite possible to create a tree that is "broken" for some value of "broken"
  399. # [10:52] <aleray> jgraham, that's what i'm looking for
  400. # [10:52] <jgraham> i.e. html5lib is not supposed to be like tidy
  401. # [10:52] <jgraham> What are you looking for?
  402. # [10:52] <aleray> have the same rendering as in web browser
  403. # [10:53] <jgraham> I guess you don't mean "rendering" since there are no graphics involved
  404. # [10:53] <aleray> so i don't get why http://dpaste.com/1064087/ output is different from just wgetting the page
  405. # [10:54] * Philip` wonders whether tree.write tries to emit HTML or XML
  406. # [10:54] <jgraham> It's different because that code uses to html5lib parse the page and reserialize it. wget just reads the bytes off the wire.
  407. # [10:55] <jgraham> That's also a good point
  408. # [10:55] <aleray> when i look at, let say, a copy of nytimes homepage fetched with wget and one fetched with my code look different in my browser
  409. # [10:55] <jgraham> YOu probably don't want to use XML serialization
  410. # [10:55] <aleray> jgraham, ahhh
  411. # [10:56] <jgraham> aleray: More like Philip`, ahhh :)
  412. # [10:56] <aleray> oups confused... do you see what I mean jgraham ?
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  415. # [11:00] <jgraham> aleray: Try replacing tree.write('/tmp/foo.html') with open('/tmp/foo.html', 'w').write(html5lib.serialize(tree, tree="lxml"))
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  417. # [11:01] <aleray> jgraham ok I try!
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  419. # [11:02] <aleray> jgraham, humm "UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\xb7' in position 4245: ordinal not in range(128)"
  420. # [11:02] <aleray> I will never get how coding works :P
  421. # [11:02] <Ms2ger> s/'w'/'wb'/?
  422. # [11:02] <jgraham> encoding="utf8" to the serializer or something
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  425. # [11:04] <aleray> oh yeah!
  426. # [11:04] <aleray> thanks
  427. # [11:04] <aleray> a lot
  428. # [11:06] <aleray> :)
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  439. # [11:19] <zcorpan> reyre__: i added your comment here https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/showcomment?chain=74 - feel free to raise more issues there if you find any (ask jgraham if you need assistance with critic)
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  453. # [11:55] <zcorpan> Switched to branch 'submission/opera-web-messaging-2'
  454. # [11:55] <zcorpan> Your branch and 'upstream/master' have diverged,
  455. # [11:55] <zcorpan> and have 2 and 1146 different commits each, respectively.
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  458. # [12:04] * zcorpan wonders what to do, if anything
  459. # [12:05] <annevk> So I noticed someone gave up editing CSSOM?
  460. # [12:06] <annevk> He switched all the tooling around. Fixed no bugs. And then gave up? And still got paid for that too I reckon. Sometimes I wish media would pay some attention to the bullshit that's going on.
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  463. # [12:11] <marcosc> :)
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  468. # [12:13] <Ms2ger> Turns out editing isn't so simple after all?
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  476. # [12:35] <zcorpan> annevk: hmm?
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  480. # [12:40] <annevk> lol www-tag
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  483. # [12:45] <marcosc> Are you not entertained?
  484. # [12:47] <annevk> I don't even
  485. # [12:47] <jgraham> zcorpan: Not a problem, really
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  487. # [12:47] <jgraham> That branch must be tracking master, but it shouldn't be, really
  488. # [12:47] * Ms2ger sees the names, decides not to start reading
  489. # [12:48] <zcorpan> jgraham: ok
  490. # [12:48] <jgraham> (1146 is a lot of commits. I guess that must be all of the ones from the html repo or something)
  491. # [12:49] <annevk> So I read some of it. And his arguments are basically false. Because the W3C "stable" stuff has changed too. Look at CSS 1.0, look at CSS 2.0. They are carrying warning notices that they're effectively obsolete. The same goes for a larger number of DOM standards. For HTML. For JavaScript. For encodings. For URLs. For HTTP.
  492. # [12:49] <annevk> The argument is bullshit.
  493. # [12:50] <annevk> Standards evolve over time. Get on with the program already.
  494. # [12:50] <jgraham> Anyway, still not a problem, just keep pushing to the branch locally and next time you push to github set the upstream to whatever the (non-master) branch you're pushing to is
  495. # [12:53] <jgraham> If history shows the web platfoem fading away, historians will point to timewasting arguments about how to curate the specifications as one of the primary reasons that the platform didn't manage to keep pace with other technologies.
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  497. # [12:55] <zcorpan> jgraham: i.e. use git push origin -u submission/opera-web-messaging-2 ?
  498. # [12:55] <jgraham> Is -u the short form of --set-upstream?
  499. # [12:56] <jgraham> I would explicitly specify the remote branch name
  500. # [12:56] <jgraham> git push origin --set-upstream submission/opera-web-messaging-2:submission/opera-web-messaging-2
  501. # [12:56] <zcorpan> i guess - http://stackoverflow.com/a/8995534
  502. # [12:56] <zcorpan> jgraham: why?
  503. # [12:57] <jgraham> Because explicit is better than implicit. It means I don't ahve to remember all the magic defaults :)
  504. # [12:57] <zcorpan> ok. i think i've read that they're equivalent
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  506. # [12:58] <jgraham> Yeah, I think that the default behaviour is to create a remote branch with the same name as the local branch
  507. # [12:59] <jgraham> Often that isn't what I want, which is another reason just to use the full form always
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  516. # [13:18] <Ms2ger> Anyone feel like reviewing https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/45 ? :)
  517. # [13:18] <zcorpan> annevk: do you recall why cssom-view specs MouseEvent.screenX etc? http://www.w3.org/mid/CANpe7K1J-9q52ekEe3W65MRTP_Z4Vocyp1urVXK05yp9U9U+KQ@mail.gmail.com
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  520. # [13:22] <odinho> jgraham: You should keep the commit info when you are moving commits next time.
  521. # [13:22] <odinho> jgraham: Either by using a patch (git format-patch + git am), or just cherry-picking it. IMHO
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  527. # [13:23] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: i'll have a look
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  529. # [13:24] <annevk> zcorpan: because that guy cannot read?
  530. # [13:25] <annevk> zcorpan: it should be part of the "User Interaction" specification I think, but only if it defines such things as whether or not it's pixels and what box we're talking about, etc.
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  532. # [13:25] <annevk> (and hit testing)
  533. # [13:26] <jgraham> odinho: I didn't move a commit. I recreated it
  534. # [13:27] <jgraham> Because moving it would have left the file in the wrong place still
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  536. # [13:27] <jgraham> s/recreated it/created a new one/
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  538. # [13:29] <annevk> I took a crack at replying to glazou on that www-tag thread.
  539. # [13:29] <annevk> I must be missing something since it all seems so obvious. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2013Apr/0059.html
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  542. # [13:31] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  543. # [13:31] <annevk> marcosc: also, it seems you said much the same thing in the beginning. I'm surprised how quickly glazou turned to "you probably never worked for such companies". That's some bad faith.
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  549. # [13:38] <Ms2ger> annevk, hm, can I still test that a.href reflects as a URL?
  550. # [13:39] <odinho> jgraham: Ohwell, it's possible to rewrite the patch too, but that's more involved :-)
  551. # [13:39] <annevk> Ms2ger: I guess
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  553. # [13:40] <jgraham> odinho: Yeah, I could have done something insane or I could have just not bothered
  554. # [13:40] <Ms2ger> And where did a.media go?
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  557. # [13:41] <annevk> Ms2ger: killed?
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  559. # [13:42] <Ms2ger> I must have missed that memo
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  562. # [13:44] <Ms2ger> Is blame.r7000 the most recent one?
  563. # [13:44] <Ms2ger> Ooh, http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/blames-list.cgi
  564. # [13:47] <Ms2ger> Heh, date.pubDate
  565. # [13:48] <zcorpan> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/45 is not in http://w3c-test.org/web-platform-tests/submissions/ ?
  566. # [13:50] <Ms2ger> Is now
  567. # [13:52] <Ms2ger> Ah, here we are: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20521
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  576. # [14:02] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: about the validator HTML4 thing, I'm rewriting the Schematron stuff in Java
  577. # [14:02] <MikeSmith> a la Assertions.java
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  579. # [14:02] <MikeSmith> if that's not a good idea, lemme know
  580. # [14:02] <MikeSmith> but that will remove the Schematron dependency
  581. # [14:02] <MikeSmith> and thus the performance bottlenecks
  582. # [14:02] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: if the W3C still wants to run an HTML4 validator, it's a good idea
  583. # [14:03] <MikeSmith> yeah
  584. # [14:03] <MikeSmith> we need to actually
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  586. # [14:04] <MikeSmith> we need for the validator.nu-based service to become the default service, replacing the existing legacy validator
  587. # [14:04] <MikeSmith> and a requirement of that is, it has to have HTML4 support
  588. # [14:04] <odinho> zcorpan: Should be no reason to wait on the web messaging tests, because you're saying they are okay, right?
  589. # [14:04] <MikeSmith> so this will give us that
  590. # [14:05] <zcorpan> odinho: i thought there was a requirement that somebody other than me needs to review them
  591. # [14:06] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, eh, you're a smart guy, go for it
  592. # [14:06] <odinho> Yeah. If you say they're good, should be okay.
  593. # [14:08] <zcorpan> annevk reviewed 6 files and found 1 issue
  594. # [14:09] <darobin> I didn't know that there was any kind of assertion in HTML4 that could be conducive to the writing of a validator
  595. # [14:10] <zcorpan> darobin: the html4 support in v.nu isn't an implementation of the html4 spec
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  597. # [14:13] <odinho> zcorpan: Well, but the old process was, "wait a few days on a mailing list, then move them". But you say noone looked at them here inside Opera either?
  598. # [14:13] <jgraham> I did some level of review
  599. # [14:13] <odinho> zcorpan: We mostly find bugs after approvement also. Hard to catch everything in review.
  600. # [14:13] <jgraham> But not really "is this correct per spec"
  601. # [14:13] <darobin> zcorpan: what, you mean it doesn't check for case-insensitive numbers? I'm shocked...
  602. # [14:14] <jgraham> There are other reasons to like review e.g. it means that more than one person knows what is tested
  603. # [14:14] <zcorpan> darobin: what are case-insensitive numbers?
  604. # [14:14] <MikeSmith> darobin: we just inherited the assertions from a file that Petr Nalevka wrote back in the day
  605. # [14:14] <MikeSmith> what he based them on I'm not sure
  606. # [14:15] <jgraham> But since there are approximately 5 people in the world that have shown any interest in doing test review so far…
  607. # [14:15] <MikeSmith> darobin: but it's mostly assertions about ancestor-descendant restrictions
  608. # [14:15] <jgraham> Actually I guess 6 since Tina reviewed the SSE tests
  609. # [14:15] <Ms2ger> Oh, wow, someone got itemValue right while implementing a new element in Gecko, without me telling them
  610. # [14:16] <darobin> zcorpan: it's something that HTML4 has, e.g. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/tables.html#adef-rowspan
  611. # [14:16] <MikeSmith> darobin: like, a label element must not contain a nested label element
  612. # [14:16] <jgraham> Apparently review also allowed Ms2ger to have the occasional pleasant surprise
  613. # [14:16] <darobin> rowspan = number [CN] (where [CN] means case insensitive)
  614. # [14:16] <odinho> jgraham: Yes, to the bulk that :-)
  615. # [14:16] <odinho> s/bulk/bulk of/
  616. # [14:17] <darobin> MikeSmith: yeah I know, I was mostly poking fun at HTML4, not expecting people to take me seriously :)
  617. # [14:17] <zcorpan> darobin: [CN] means case *neutral*
  618. # [14:17] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I think the html4 support in v.nu attempts to be an implementation of the HTML4 except that it doesn't use SGML parsing
  619. # [14:17] <darobin> gee, you kill the fun out of everything zcorpan
  620. # [14:17] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: the schema is an implementation of XHTML 1.0
  621. # [14:18] <MikeSmith> darobin: well I actually wonder if those assertions are stated normatively in the HTML4 spec. I doubt they are actually
  622. # [14:18] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: true
  623. # [14:19] <darobin> MikeSmith: maybe some are in the DTD?
  624. # [14:19] <MikeSmith> you mean as a comment?
  625. # [14:20] <MikeSmith> ah, o or SGML exclusions?a
  626. # [14:20] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, looking for normative content in HTML4?
  627. # [14:20] <MikeSmith> I don't think the DTD has any excluations
  628. # [14:20] <Ms2ger> You must be new here
  629. # [14:20] <zcorpan> ok i merged web-messaging-2
  630. # [14:20] <Ms2ger> Now web-messaging-1?
  631. # [14:21] <jgraham> Then web-messaging-liftoff?
  632. # [14:22] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: I am trying to put a piece of new cloth unto an old garment
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  634. # [14:23] <MikeSmith> but I fear for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse
  635. # [14:23] <MikeSmith> at least Jukka seems to think so
  636. # [14:23] <MikeSmith> though he didn't put it in quite those words
  637. # [14:24] <Ms2ger> The rent is too damn high
  638. # [14:25] * Ms2ger drops from 945 Fail to 191 Fail
  639. # [14:25] <smaug____> Ms2ger: possible an element which I reviewed?
  640. # [14:25] <Ms2ger> smaug____, nah, track
  641. # [14:25] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: nicely riffed
  642. # [14:25] <smaug____> ah
  643. # [14:25] <smaug____> Ms2ger: didn't bz review that :)
  644. # [14:25] * smaug____ can't recall
  645. # [14:25] <Ms2ger> He is reviewing, yes
  646. # [14:25] <Ms2ger> And not too happy :)
  647. # [14:27] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  648. # [14:27] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
  649. # [14:27] <Ms2ger> jgraham, a question...
  650. # [14:27] <Ms2ger> If I go to https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/6dda8721?review=5, tick a box, and submit the review...
  651. # [14:28] <Ms2ger> Then the new page it loads has other boxes ticked
  652. # [14:28] * Ms2ger poofs for a bit
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  663. # [14:43] * karlcow reading www-tag and being sad about humanity
  664. # [14:43] <annevk> karlcow: I hope the latter did not follow from the former, 'cause then you might be in for a surprise
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  667. # [14:50] <hsivonen> what if the former followed from the latter?
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  669. # [14:54] <annevk> heh
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  675. # [15:04] <karlcow> :)
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  723. # [16:05] <annevk> Why is data:text/xml,<?xml version="1.0" encoding="bullshit"?><x/> well-formed?
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  725. # [16:06] <annevk> I cannot find a statement in the standard that forbids that. Browsers seem to use utf-8...
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  731. # [16:18] <darobin> bast [16:17] html-testsuite (master) $ echo '<?xml version="1.0" encoding="bullshit"?><x/>' | xmllint -
  732. # [16:18] <darobin> -:1: parser error : Unsupported encoding bullshit
  733. # [16:18] <darobin> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="bullshit"?><x/>
  734. # [16:18] <darobin> annevk: ^^
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  736. # [16:19] <annevk> Okqy, but why does it think it's in error?
  737. # [16:19] <annevk> Why as in what am I missing in http://www.w3.org/TR/xml/#charencoding why
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  739. # [16:19] <gsnedders> "It is a fatal error when an XML processor encounters an entity with an encoding that it is unable to process."
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  741. # [16:21] <hsivonen> darobin: what do Chrome and IE do with that
  742. # [16:21] <annevk> That's some ambiguous use of entity
  743. # [16:22] <darobin> annevk: not in the context of the XML spec
  744. # [16:22] <hsivonen> darobin: my motivation to change Gecko for encoding bullshit is pretty low
  745. # [16:22] <darobin> hsivonen: I can't say I'm violently in favour either
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  747. # [16:24] <darobin> hsivonen, annevk: Chrome gives an error
  748. # [16:24] <darobin> as does Safari
  749. # [16:24] <darobin> I'm running too much crap at this specific moment to load up an IE VM
  750. # [16:25] <darobin> I would expect it to dislike it though
  751. # [16:25] <gsnedders> annevk: How is that ambiguous?
  752. # [16:25] <darobin> gsnedders: I think he's thinking of entity references
  753. # [16:26] <annevk> darobin: I'm getting a blank page in IE
  754. # [16:26] <annevk> darobin: hsivonen: using http://dump.testsuite.org/xml/encoding-bullshit.xml
  755. # [16:26] <annevk> hsivonen: it does seem like something we could fix though at some point
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  757. # [16:27] <hsivonen> annevk: great name for a test file
  758. # [16:27] <hsivonen> annevk: I'd rather implement XML5 than make XML 1.0 fail harder
  759. # [16:27] <hsivonen> annevk: but if you are writing patches these days...
  760. # [16:28] <hsivonen> annevk: since the encoding stuff is a hack outside expat, there's no easy way to make the YSoD show up with a sensible message in this case
  761. # [16:29] <hsivonen> one would need to write a non-expat-driven way to cause a YSoD for this
  762. # [16:29] <annevk> I want to give patching a try again someday. Not sure if making XML stricter is going to be the start :-)
  763. # [16:29] <annevk> Seems weird that expect would not ask the browser if the encoding is supported.
  764. # [16:30] <hsivonen> annevk: the encoding stuff happens before expat has a chance to do anything
  765. # [16:30] <annevk> Ah I see
  766. # [16:30] <hsivonen> expat's own encoding API is so weird that instead of using it, we do the conversion to UTF-16 outside expat and tell expat it's dealing with UTF-16
  767. # [16:30] <annevk> The whole encoding thing is kinda undefined too because the encodings are undefined. XML's black box.
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  771. # [16:31] <hsivonen> if you can claim EXI is an encoding for XML, surely you can say this is XML on top of the Encoding Standard
  772. # [16:31] <hsivonen> or something
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  774. # [16:31] <hsivonen> anyway, I have many other encoding-related patches to write first
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  827. # [17:49] <timeless> hello world
  828. # [17:49] <timeless> anyone here play w/ <track>s and Cue objects?
  829. # [17:50] <timeless> i'm having problems w/ cue.onenter in Chrome
  830. # [17:50] <timeless> it works if i set a breakpoint on it, but it doesn't seem to fire otherwise :o
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  847. # [18:13] <Greg1> Hi everyone - I'm reading about futures right now and am curious on browser support. And do I need an additional library for it.
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  849. # [18:13] <Ms2ger> No browser support
  850. # [18:14] <jgraham> They haven't resolved yet
  851. # [18:14] <Greg1> I actually just ran into an issue yesterday where the callbacks weren't effective and this could be useful
  852. # [18:14] <Greg1> I figured as much - too bad
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  854. # [18:17] <darobin> Greg1: I would expect them to start hitting browsers relatively soon though
  855. # [18:17] <darobin> also, I expect shims
  856. # [18:18] <Greg1> Awesome, are you guys working with the big 3 on this then (Chrome, FF, and IE)? And there will be decent backwards compatibality correct.
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  858. # [18:19] <annevk> Greg1: https://github.com/slightlyoff/DOMFuture/ has an implementation in script
  859. # [18:20] <slightlyoff> we're looking to implement very shortly
  860. # [18:20] <annevk> Greg1: Google/Mozilla are on board with regards to implementing near term as far as I know, dunno about Microsoft
  861. # [18:20] <slightlyoff> (chromium that is)
  862. # [18:20] <Greg1> Oh ok - good
  863. # [18:20] <gsnedders> (MS basically never say anything, and then release a build.)
  864. # [18:20] <darobin> yeah
  865. # [18:21] <slightlyoff> Greg1: we need it to fix a ton of APIs that are pretty crufty right now (Web Crypto, IDB, geolocation, etc.)
  866. # [18:21] <Greg1> That's unfortunate - you would think they would want to reach out to devs
  867. # [18:21] <darobin> but we know that individual MSFTers like futures in general
  868. # [18:21] <Greg1> Why wouldn't they
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  871. # [18:21] <slightlyoff> darobin: yep. Had a productive discussion with luke hoban at the last TC39
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  875. # [18:21] <darobin> Greg1: the problem isn't that MS doesn't want to talk to dev, they really do want to
  876. # [18:21] <gsnedders> Not quite as amusing as Opera's old situation: you knew exactly what we were implementing, even though we couldn't say a thing, because of what feedback we were sending on the spec.
  877. # [18:21] <slightlyoff> darobin: and an MSFT person posted out on public script coord with some alternatives, so I think they're looking at it
  878. # [18:22] <darobin> the problem is that they're being watched like crazy by the EU so that they can never announce anything unless they're 100% certain that it ships
  879. # [18:22] <Greg1> Oh, interesting
  880. # [18:22] <darobin> slightlyoff: yeah I saw that; they've been looking for a while, they have something like that in Win8
  881. # [18:22] <darobin> Greg1: the problem IIRC is that at some point they announced support for something but eventually yanked it before shipping
  882. # [18:22] <slightlyoff> darobin: yes, and part of the design process was understandign all the choices they made in WinJS
  883. # [18:22] <darobin> this caused other browser vendors to implement that thing
  884. # [18:22] <slightlyoff> darobin: turns out they implemented 2 versions in WinJS
  885. # [18:22] <gsnedders> darobin: Longhorn was entirely that.
  886. # [18:23] <darobin> which in turn was cited as anticompetitive behaviour
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  888. # [18:23] <darobin> I'm not a huge fan of MS's products, but the way the EU's been treating them has been unfair
  889. # [18:23] <gsnedders> darobin: Promised the world, shipped nothing. Middle management was running scared of saying anything publicly, even when they have a ready-to-ship product internally.
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  891. # [18:23] <darobin> slightlyoff: well why only do one version, right? :)
  892. # [18:23] <slightlyoff> darobin: well, you live and learn
  893. # [18:24] <slightlyoff> which is sort of the A+/Q experience
  894. # [18:24] <slightlyoff> everyone keeps iterating on one or another bit of the core contract
  895. # [18:24] <slightlyoff> what we have now is really minimal for a reason
  896. # [18:24] <Greg1> slightlyoff: Sounds good
  897. # [18:24] <Greg1> So for now then I should use promises then
  898. # [18:25] <slightlyoff> Greg1: or you could use the p(r)ollyfill
  899. # [18:25] <slightlyoff> Greg1: they should interop (assuming your Promises impl is A+ compatible)
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  901. # [18:26] <Greg1> Do you have a link to a library that you guys prefer that would match that spec?
  902. # [18:26] <Greg1> I get quite a few when going to p(r)ollyfill
  903. # [18:27] <annevk> Greg1: I just gave you a link
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  906. # [18:28] <Greg1> annevk: hmmm... I don't see it (I'm using the Pidgin client)
  907. # [18:28] <Ms2ger> https://github.com/slightlyoff/DOMFuture/
  908. # [18:29] <Greg1> Thanks Ms2ger
  909. # [18:29] <Ms2ger> Np
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  937. # [18:55] <KyleBarnhart> Hi
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  940. # [18:56] <KyleBarnhart> I have a question regarding direction rtl
  941. # [18:57] <KyleBarnhart> If i have a box that's rtl with left 100px and width 50px does it go from 50px-100px of 100px-150px?
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  943. # [18:57] <KyleBarnhart> *or not of
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  945. # [19:00] <KyleBarnhart> I ask this because the WebVTT spec states that for a video width of 640px, if the direction is rtl and horizonal position of 45%, the left should be 352px and width 352px. That shoots it out of bound but makes sense if the width is going to the left instead of to the right.
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  952. # [19:04] <KyleBarnhart> If I'm not clear about the direct rtl, I'm refering to right-to-left text such as arabic or hebrew
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  961. # [19:12] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  963. # [19:13] * WeirdAl offers the stock mock response: meh
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  965. # [19:14] <WeirdAl> :)
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  967. # [19:18] <jgraham> dglazkov doesn't actually respond here, he just has a "good morning" script that does the text and marks the logs yellow
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  986. # [19:42] <dglazkov> I totally respond here!
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  1009. # [20:25] <Ms2ger> "The Mobile Web Test Suites Working Group is launching today its first call for contributions to the Open Mobile Web Test Suite:"
  1010. # [20:25] <Ms2ger> I wonder what happened to that
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  1014. # [20:31] <jgraham> It turns out that calling for contributions is easy and making contributions is hard?
  1015. # [20:32] <Ms2ger> Hey man, they made a mobile version of the DOM1 test suite
  1016. # [20:33] <jgraham> "yay"
  1017. # [20:34] <TabAtkins> KyleBarnhart: directionality of abspos doesn't matter unless you're resolving an overconstrained situation.
  1018. # [20:35] <TabAtkins> KyleBarnhart: Assuming that 'right' is "auto", then it'll work the same in rtl as ltr.
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  1020. # [20:37] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
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  1025. # [20:44] <scott_gonzalez> Do web components have to be included via <link> or can the <element> be inline in the page?
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  1027. # [20:45] <KyleBarnhart> ok, thank you. There appears to be a bug in the spec.
  1028. # [20:45] <KyleBarnhart> I've sent writting to the mailing list.
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  1032. # [20:55] <scott_gonzalez> dglazkov: Do you know if custom elements work in Canary without the polyfill?
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  1036. # [20:58] <jgraham> Holy crap, if anne doesn't like the email from critic just wait until he discovers the spam-fest that is github
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  1038. # [20:58] <Ms2ger> One email per comment?
  1039. # [20:59] * Ms2ger would be perfectly happy without tests for document.all, too
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  1041. # [21:01] <gsnedders> jgraham: Don't make me ping the review and spam you!
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  1044. # [21:02] * Philip` loves review systems that end up sending you 37 emails for a single patch (mostly consisting of bots saying "I'm about to build this" and then saying "I built this")
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  1048. # [21:05] <jgraham> Yeah, one email per comment
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  1104. # [22:14] <manu-db> Ignore this if you need to get work done: "you work for W3 eh? undermining human society for illicit gains?" http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=k92m5auk
  1105. # [22:15] * nimbu1 is now known as divya
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  1107. # [22:21] <TabAtkins> manu-db: Hahahahaha
  1108. # [22:21] <manu-db> dude, keep reading, it gets so much better.
  1109. # [22:22] <TabAtkins> wow, lolwut
  1110. # [22:23] <manu-db> Also, I think we're going to try Futures in the JSON-LD API, experimentally at first and if the group likes them, we think we have a way forward to REC.
  1111. # [22:24] <TabAtkins> Yay!
  1112. # [22:26] <gsnedders> manu-db: Gold, absolute gold.
  1113. # [22:27] <TabAtkins> Must be some weird meme-disease running around lately.
  1114. # [22:27] <gsnedders> manu-db: And because it's always a target: it's all these semweb activities diverting resources from the important problems like solving the mathematical flaws in JS/DOM.
  1115. # [22:28] <manu-db> gsnedders: You can't deny that the plan is working.
  1116. # [22:34] <astearns> "anyone who understands the problem is party [to it's continuance]" - isn't he implicating himself, here (or perhaps only himself?)
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  1118. # [22:37] <gavinc> manu-db: Wow.
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  1120. # [22:40] <hober> reads like the timecube guy
  1121. # [22:41] <TabAtkins> hober: Have you read the steelmanning of Timecube? http://squid314.livejournal.com/327646.html
  1122. # [22:41] <TabAtkins> (Steelman is the opposite of strawman - interpret an argument in the strongest possible fashion, giving it every benefit of the doubt.)
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  1124. # [22:42] * manu-db loves the timecube guy, we actually have a timecube clock in our offices.
  1125. # [22:42] * gavin_ is now known as gavin
  1126. # [22:42] <gavinc> reads like every city council meeting here... sigh
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  1138. # [23:06] <hober> TabAtkins: i hadn't seen that, no
  1139. # [23:06] <hober> TabAtkins: have you seen http://html5timecube.com/ ?
  1140. # [23:06] <TabAtkins> Hahaha, no.
  1141. # [23:07] <divya> thnx hober
  1142. # [23:07] <divya> that was valuable.
  1143. # [23:08] <hober> don't thank me, thank jernoble
  1144. # [23:08] * jernoble bows.
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  1146. # [23:11] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK I just now landed a change a the removes the schematron dependency from the HTML4 backend of v.nu, replaced with custom Java checker, a la Assertions.sch
  1147. # [23:11] <MikeSmith> win 25
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  1150. # [23:12] <Ms2ger> lose 26
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The end :)