/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-04-24 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Apr 24 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [00:08] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I was trying to find the source for http://www.w3.org/2009/07/webidl-check but couldn't yet
  9. # [00:08] <MikeSmith> I think dom is the one to ask
  10. # [00:09] <MikeSmith> maybe e-mail sysreq@w3.org
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  12. # [00:12] <zcorpan> done
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  16. # [00:25] <MikeSmith> Hixie: the code you had for switching the style of the HTML spec before, for hiding the impl parts, do you still have that code somewhere?
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  18. # [00:29] <Hixie> wasn't it just an alternative style sheet?
  19. # [00:31] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah but you had an on-page UI for switching it. Remember?
  20. # [00:31] <MikeSmith> radio buttons
  21. # [00:32] <Hixie> oh
  22. # [00:32] <Hixie> dunno
  23. # [00:32] <Hixie> it was just a trivial thing
  24. # [00:32] <Hixie> few radio buttons, toggled which style sheet was enabled
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  27. # [00:35] <MikeSmith> ok
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  30. # [00:39] <user> What ever happened with this spec? There are a lot of awesome ideas but it seems abandonded and unimplemented.. http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-content/
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  32. # [00:40] <user> That's mostly directed at Hixie, I guess
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  34. # [00:42] <Hixie> i started working on HTML
  35. # [00:42] <Hixie> and ran out of bandwidth to work on css stuff
  36. # [00:43] <Hixie> i told the CSSWG I'd maybe get back to it in 2015-2018, iirc
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  38. # [00:44] <user> Do you need help with it? I've got a whole bunch of stuff going on that'd benefit *tremendously* from multiple ::before and ::after definitions :)
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  40. # [00:45] <astearns> user: I picked up that particular part here: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-pseudo/
  41. # [00:46] <astearns> user: sending use cases to www-style might help
  42. # [00:46] <user> astearns: Thanks, that's exactly what I'm interested in
  43. # [00:48] <Hixie> user: i'm sure if you volunteer to edit specs the csswg would be happy to have you
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  46. # [00:53] <user> Hixie: Maybe I'll even get a real username for that
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  48. # [00:55] <Hixie> heh
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  84. # [02:24] <esprehn> Hixie: is there a reason http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/infrastructure.html#valid-mime-type mentions RFC2616 instead of RFC4288 which has the actual grammar in it?
  85. # [02:27] <Hixie> probably not
  86. # [02:28] <esprehn> okay, trying to understand the deal with mime types. Webkit tries to respect all the RFCs
  87. # [02:28] <Hixie> 2616 seems to have actual gramar too...
  88. # [02:28] <esprehn> Gecko completely ignores everything, in fact any mime type with the substring "xml" is considered XML in Firefox :/
  89. # [02:29] <Hixie> where does 4288 define this?
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  91. # [02:29] <Hixie> i don't see what i would reference in 4288
  92. # [02:29] <esprehn> Hixie: I don't see the grammar in 2616
  93. # [02:30] <esprehn> Hixie: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4288#section-4.2
  94. # [02:30] <Hixie> it's in the section mentioned
  95. # [02:30] <Hixie> that doesn't define what the html spec needs
  96. # [02:30] <esprehn> Hixie: the section doesn't say what chars are actually allowed in the parts
  97. # [02:31] <Hixie> sure, it then references other stuff
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  100. # [02:31] <esprehn> none of those seem to say either
  101. # [02:31] <esprehn> at least not clearly that I could find
  102. # [02:31] <Hixie> fwiw, i expect in the medium term we'll be dumping all these references are referencing a new spec or mimesniff or some such, or defining it inline
  103. # [02:32] <Hixie> the mime type specs aren't as much of a mess as other things, but they're still pretty messed up
  104. # [02:32] <zewt> gave me headaches with the blob mime type stuff recently
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  106. # [02:32] <Hixie> esprehn: "token" in the HTTP spec is defined in 2.2
  107. # [02:32] <Hixie> esprehn: as "1*<any CHAR except CTLs or separators>"
  108. # [02:32] <zewt> (the whole "blob mime types shouldn't contain subtypes" thing, what an ugly mess)
  109. # [02:32] <Hixie> esprehn: which is the definition HTML is trying to use
  110. # [02:33] <esprehn> ah I see
  111. # [02:33] <esprehn> interesting
  112. # [02:34] <esprehn> 4288 is a lot more clear, I see the token = and CHAR but not section now though
  113. # [02:34] <Hixie> 4288 doesn't define this at all
  114. # [02:34] <Hixie> as far as i ca ntell
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  116. # [02:34] <Hixie> it doesn't have a definition of media type as being type "/" subtype
  117. # [02:35] <esprehn> no, it specifies what type and subtype are
  118. # [02:35] <zewt> (the whole idea of "type/subtype" seems practically useless today, i just think of them as opaque strings)
  119. # [02:35] <esprehn> "Type and subtype names MUST conform to the following ABNF"
  120. # [02:35] <Hixie> esprehn: right but what the HTML spec needs is a definition of the format type / subtype ; parameter ; parameter
  121. # [02:36] <esprehn> right
  122. # [02:36] <esprehn> That's actually specified in a couple places
  123. # [02:36] <esprehn> to varying degrees of vagueness
  124. # [02:36] <zewt> ietf degrees
  125. # [02:37] <Hixie> esprehn: right
  126. # [02:37] <Hixie> esprehn: hence i picked one, rfc2616 :-)
  127. # [02:38] <esprehn> Hixie: should you be able to do things like DOMPaser.parseFromString(..., "text/html;charset=utf-8") ?
  128. # [02:40] <esprehn> oh I see parseFromString doesn't even really do mime types either
  129. # [02:40] <esprehn> http://domparsing.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-domparser-parsefromstring
  130. # [02:40] <esprehn> zewt: indeed they are opaue strings, marginally better than the guids that MS folks love so much
  131. # [02:41] <zewt> i'd say more than marginally (in that humans don't have to look them up every time), i'd just like the fiction of type/subtype to go away
  132. # [02:41] <Hixie> dunno, parseFromString isn't mine :-)
  133. # [02:41] <esprehn> I don't actually care about that, I just needed to know if the stuff for validating content types is correct in webkit
  134. # [02:42] <Hixie> the processing of mime types varies wildly from api endpoint to api endpoint
  135. # [02:42] <Hixie> i doubt that any single implementation can be consistently used in many places
  136. # [02:42] <esprehn> specifically XHR will only allow responseXML if we think it's XML or HTML
  137. # [02:42] <Hixie> the term in the html spec is mainly used for conformance checkers, not browsers
  138. # [02:42] <Hixie> ah well for XHR, see the XHR spec :-) xhr.spec.whatwg.org
  139. # [02:43] <esprehn> yes, it has an even more vague one that says effectively "any valid mime that ends in +xml"
  140. # [02:43] <zewt> i'd think it'd be simplest for responseXML to always work, as long as it's parsable (but no idea off-hand about security and webcompat concerns)
  141. # [02:43] <Hixie> esprehn: file a bug on anne :-)
  142. # [02:44] <zewt> do you have an :-) button
  143. # [02:44] <Hixie> esprehn: mimesniff.spec.whatwg.org is probably what we should link to
  144. # [02:44] <esprehn> Webkit matches the type/subtype against the grammar, Gecko you can return an XML file with hixie$$xml$$/webgl and you get responseXML since indexOf("xml") != -1
  145. # [02:44] <Hixie> esprehn: dunno if it defines it yet
  146. # [02:44] <Hixie> zewt: on my phone, yes. but on the laptop, i have to type them. :-(
  147. # [02:45] <esprehn> I wonder if IE actually checks the format of the mime
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  149. # [02:46] <Hixie> bbl
  150. # [02:46] <zewt> seems particularly odd since i'd guess that there are tons of formats that use xml where responseXML would be useful for, but which have their own mime types (not that i have any examples off the top of my head)
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  153. # [02:50] <esprehn> zewt: per the spec they should all be foo/foo+xml as the mime
  154. # [02:50] <zewt> but i don't know what the practical value of restricting the responseXML feature to that is
  155. # [02:50] <zewt> but i'm not up to speed on that stuff
  156. # [02:51] <esprehn> dunno, ask anne
  157. # [02:51] <esprehn> the spec requires checks for responseXML
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  249. # [08:47] <hsivonen> hmm. how long does it usually take for an email to appear in the Web archive on lists.w3.org?
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  252. # [08:51] <SimonSapin1> hsivonen: minutes, at most?
  253. # [08:53] * Joins: cabanier1 (~cabanier@38.111.151.153)
  254. # [08:54] <hsivonen> SimonSapin1: it's been 16 minutes now without my message appearing
  255. # [08:56] <SimonSapin1> Did you get it back from being subscribed to the list? (Usually appears in the archives before that, for me)
  256. # [08:56] <SimonSapin1> Did you get an email asking for permission to publish it in the archives? (If you’ve never written to that list before and not given permission for all W3C lists)
  257. # [08:57] <hsivonen> SimonSapin1: I don't get my own messages back in general. I didn't get a permission email.
  258. # [08:58] <hsivonen> or if I do get my own messages back, Gmail hides them
  259. # [09:02] <SimonSapin1> I think Gmail hides them, I get them in Thunderbird with a custom MTA
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  265. # [09:09] <hsivonen> ok. it took 30 minutes for the message to appear
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  288. # [10:39] <hsivonen> what's the context of the latest meme on w3cmemes? I thought EME already supported CDNs.
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  301. # [11:12] <smaug____> hey, that meme about timeless is not fair
  302. # [11:13] * smaug____ could be missing the context of that one :)
  303. # [11:13] <annevk> hsivonen: also, this makes Batman look bad
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  305. # [11:16] <smaug____> what is "polyglot spec"? xhtml stuff?
  306. # [11:18] * smaug____ is glad he doesn't follow what html wg does. He gets angry or sad every time he reads the mailing list.
  307. # [11:18] <jgraham> Non exclusive or?
  308. # [11:18] <smaug____> yes
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  314. # [11:33] <annevk> smaug____: Polyglot is wring HTML and XHTML at the same time meeting the constraints of both
  315. # [11:35] * Quits: abstractj (~abstractj@redhat/jboss/abstractj) (Excess Flood)
  316. # [11:36] <tobie> annevk: looking at the URLQuery interface of the URL spec, how are querys of the form …?foo=123&bar handled by the JS API?
  317. # [11:36] * Joins: abstractj (~abstractj@redhat/jboss/abstractj)
  318. # [11:37] <tobie> annevk: more specifically: how do you set "bar" in the above example?
  319. # [11:37] * Quits: abstractj (~abstractj@redhat/jboss/abstractj) (Excess Flood)
  320. # [11:38] <tobie> s/set/set or append/
  321. # [11:39] <annevk> tobie: using set or append
  322. # [11:39] <tobie> annevk: what would you set the value to?
  323. # [11:39] <tobie> the empty string?
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  325. # [11:39] <tobie> true?
  326. # [11:39] <tobie> not specify a value?
  327. # [11:39] <annevk> tobie: you'll get bar=
  328. # [11:40] <annevk> tobie: per IDL it ToString's the value
  329. # [11:40] <annevk> tobie: so empty string
  330. # [11:40] <tobie> what if what you want is ?foo=123&bar and not ?foo=123&bar=
  331. # [11:41] <annevk> you wouldn't use this API
  332. # [11:41] <zcorpan> should getDefaultComputedStyle apply presentational hints or not?
  333. # [11:41] <annevk> zcorpan: what does getDefault mean?
  334. # [11:41] <tobie> isn't that a serious shortcoming?
  335. # [11:41] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.230.221)
  336. # [11:42] <zcorpan> annevk: like getComputedStyle but without author styles (and always computed style instead of resolved style)
  337. # [11:42] <annevk> tobie: it matches what you can do with <form>
  338. # [11:42] <tobie> annevk: oh really?
  339. # [11:42] <annevk> tobie: the underlying format is shared
  340. # [11:43] <annevk> tobie: it's basically an API for application/x-www-form-urlencoded
  341. # [11:43] <SimonSapin> zcorpan: Re http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/316 , the question is whether we should just remove the quirk or make it standard. The latter (#1hash is a valid ID selector) simplifies both specs and implementations.
  342. # [11:43] <tobie> aren't radio buttons and checkboxes sent as : bar rather than bar=?
  343. # [11:43] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: right. i'm saying we should remove the quirk.
  344. # [11:43] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: it's just IE that needs to change
  345. # [11:44] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: how does HASH simplify anything?
  346. # [11:44] <SimonSapin> and preserve the current standard behavior, ie. restrict ID selectors to #<ident>? Why?
  347. # [11:44] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: because it's what gecko/webkit/blink do in all their rendering modes
  348. # [11:44] <annevk> tobie: 'If the field element has a value attribute specified, then let value be the value of that attribute; otherwise, let value be the string "on".'
  349. # [11:44] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: why change?
  350. # [11:45] * Joins: danielfilho|w (~danielfil@200.232.113.107)
  351. # [11:45] <tobie> annevk: darn it's been a while. Thanks for the clarification.
  352. # [11:45] <SimonSapin> with the restriction, the tokenizer needs a special case to detect #1hash vs. #\31hash, and a flag on hash tokens
  353. # [11:45] <SimonSapin> also, apparently HTML now allows id="1hash", and consistency is nice
  354. # [11:46] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: IDENT is used in other places than ID selectors, no?
  355. # [11:47] <SimonSapin> yes any keyword, but as a IDENT token, not a HASH token with the "id" flag
  356. # [11:47] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: HTML allows non-HASH IDs, too, so you're still not consistent
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  358. # [11:49] <zcorpan> i'm not following
  359. # [11:49] <SimonSapin> That’s the definition for @id, right? http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/elements.html#the-id-attribute
  360. # [11:50] <SimonSapin> I was replying to "IDENT is used in other places than ID selectors, no?", but I’m not sure where you were going with this
  361. # [11:50] <annevk> zcorpan: so you're gonna expose the underdocumented user agent styles even more prominently?
  362. # [11:50] <annevk> maybe it'll help getting them aligned
  363. # [11:50] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: you said it would simplify the tokenizer
  364. # [11:52] * Quits: plutoniix (~plutoniix@ppp-110-168-241-105.revip5.asianet.co.th) (Quit: จรลี จรลา)
  365. # [11:54] <zcorpan> ok i see how it could simplify the tokenizer
  366. # [11:54] <SimonSapin> Yes. In the tokenizer, all of #ident #1hash and #\31hash are HASH tokens. Selectors say that ID selectors are '#' + IDENT, but it’s not tokenized that way. In particular, #1hash and #\31hash have the same parsed value but only the latter is a valid ID selectors.
  367. # [11:54] <SimonSapin> So we need to add a flag to HASH token, saying whether it had valid identifier syntax before un-escaping, and add behavior in the tokenizer to set that flag
  368. # [11:54] <SimonSapin> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-syntax/#hash-state
  369. # [11:55] <SimonSapin> It’s not terrible, but I find it a bit silly.
  370. # [11:55] <zcorpan> right
  371. # [11:56] <SimonSapin> (#1FF still has to be a valid HASH in case it’s a color)
  372. # [11:56] <zcorpan> we have interop in standards mode, and only one browser engine that is still maintained does it in quirks mode
  373. # [11:57] <zcorpan> the web compat impact of changing this in standards mode is not known
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  375. # [11:57] <SimonSapin> Yes, we could just keep the current standard behavior. That’s least risky.
  376. # [11:58] <SimonSapin> But it’s also nice that authors don’t need to escape IDs that start with a digit, although it’s minor
  377. # [11:58] <SimonSapin> maybe it’s not worth spending so much time on this whole thing
  378. # [11:58] * Quits: pyrsmk (~pyrsmk@183.2.101.84.rev.sfr.net) (Quit: tzing)
  379. # [11:59] <zcorpan> being nice for authors is a valid argument though i don't remember seeing that argument being made until now :-)
  380. # [11:59] * Joins: pyrsmk (~pyrsmk@183.2.101.84.rev.sfr.net)
  381. # [11:59] <SimonSapin> It’s hidden under consistency with HTML
  382. # [11:59] <zcorpan> HTML allows id="#"
  383. # [12:00] <zcorpan> and id="{};"
  384. # [12:00] <SimonSapin> which would need to be escaped in CSS: #\#, #\{\}
  385. # [12:00] <zcorpan> yes. so what's the difference between that and id="1"?
  386. # [12:01] <SimonSapin> digits are especially annoying to escape: \1 is U+0001, you have to use \31 for U+0031
  387. # [12:01] <SimonSapin> a-f never need escaping
  388. # [12:03] <SimonSapin> but classes would still need to be escaped: class="1" → .\31
  389. # [12:04] <annevk> tobie: btw, if you can collect feedback on desired URL comparison capabilities somehow that'd be awesome
  390. # [12:04] <annevk> tobie: (somewhat unrelated)
  391. # [12:05] <tobie> annevk: one thing I've had to do in the past was to check whether two urls were of the same origin
  392. # [12:06] <annevk> tobie: url.origin == url.origin will cover that
  393. # [12:06] <tobie> annevk: awesome.
  394. # [12:07] <annevk> things I've been thinking about: ignoring hash, ignoring hash and query/search, ignoring order in query/search, ignoring the trailing host dot
  395. # [12:07] <tobie> (had missed the origin property while skimming over the spec)
  396. # [12:07] <tobie> annevk: do you have an API in mind for this?
  397. # [12:08] <tobie> Just trying to have a better understanding of what you're looking at.
  398. # [12:12] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: consistency with classes seems important
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  401. # [12:13] <SimonSapin> classes are tokenizer as DELIM(.) + IDENT. I guess we could add a token, but I don’t know if it’s worth it
  402. # [12:16] <annevk> tobie: something like url.isEqual(url/string, options)
  403. # [12:16] <zcorpan> classes would be even more silly that what we have with id selectors if we want to support starting with a number for both
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  405. # [12:17] <annevk> tobie: I also kinda want url == url2 to work, but that would require it either becoming a native JS object, or overloading of == which does not exist yet
  406. # [12:17] <SimonSapin> that would mean a new token I suppose
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  408. # [12:18] <zcorpan> except .1 still needs to be a NUMBER in other places
  409. # [12:18] <asmodai> The Unity guys also dropping Flash, even more focus on HTML/WebGL: http://blogs.unity3d.com/2013/04/23/sunsetting-flash/
  410. # [12:18] <tobie> annevk: that would be cool.
  411. # [12:19] <annevk> C++ is getting URLs as a first-class citizen reportedly
  412. # [12:19] <SimonSapin> oh, yeah, a class token won’t work. .1 is a number, and .1foo is a dimension
  413. # [12:19] <annevk> (leaving the implementation of URLs undefined)
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  418. # [12:24] <tobie> annevk: C++ has a lot of first-class citizens
  419. # [12:25] <annevk> tobie: but if we had operator overloading it wouldn't really matter if it was first-class or not I think
  420. # [12:25] <annevk> then everything is first-class
  421. # [12:26] <tobie> annevk: indeed.
  422. # [12:26] <tobie> Is operator overloading on the ES timeline?
  423. # [12:26] <annevk> my backchannel tells me ES7-8
  424. # [12:28] <tobie> heh
  425. # [12:29] <tobie> I'm not looking forward to the amount of abuse operator overloading will create at first.
  426. # [12:29] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: (1.4% of all id="" attributes in http://webdevdata.org/ dec2012 start with a number)
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  429. # [12:31] <SimonSapin> zcorpan: do you that kind of data for stylesheets? More important are invalid selectors that would break a page when they become valid
  430. # [12:32] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: webdevdata doesn't include external style sheets so it's a bit limited
  431. # [12:33] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: but if you can come up with a regexp that matches selectors you're interested in i can run it
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  434. # [12:39] <SimonSapin> # is not special in regexps, is it? Try #[0-9][0-9a-zA-Z]*[g-zG-Z] , ie. a HASH token that starts with a digit but is not a hex color
  435. # [12:39] <SimonSapin> Also try #- although I suspect it’s be much less frequent
  436. # [12:39] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: the problem is not matching things that are not selectors in arbitrary HTML documents
  437. # [12:39] <zcorpan> including color:#123
  438. # [12:40] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  439. # [12:40] <zcorpan> now trying: grep -aEi "<style(\d[^>]+)?>[^<\{]+([^<\{]+{[^<\{\}]+}[^<\{]*)*#\d"
  440. # [12:40] <SimonSapin> uh
  441. # [12:41] <SimonSapin> why \d in <style(\d[^>]+)?> ?
  442. # [12:41] <zcorpan> oops
  443. # [12:42] <zcorpan> meant \s
  444. # [12:43] <zcorpan> body #2degrees-click:hover {cursor:pointer;cursor:hand;}
  445. # [12:47] <SimonSapin> I think the consistency with classes is the strongest argument
  446. # [12:47] <SimonSapin> (Which is not that strong, but more so than anything else in this discussion.)
  447. # [12:49] <zcorpan> yeah
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  449. # [12:49] <zcorpan> huh, i get a few results of the grep that don't even contain "<style"
  450. # [12:50] <zcorpan> anyway, assuming i didn't mess up the regexp, the above instance was the only id selector starting with a digit in the data set
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  453. # [12:52] <zcorpan> which is http://www.3news.co.nz/
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  473. # [13:33] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/mid/50786331.6080905@mit.edu - what are override style sheets?
  474. # [13:34] <gsnedders> zcorpan: User stylesheets, no?
  475. # [13:34] <zcorpan> no (user style sheets was addressed later in the thread)
  476. # [13:34] <gsnedders> Then idk
  477. # [13:35] <SimonSapin> zcorpan: I’m not sure, but css-cascade refers to this: http://www.w3.org/TR/2000/REC-DOM-Level-2-Style-20001113/css.html#CSS-OverrideAndComputed
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  479. # [13:37] <annevk> zcorpan: SVG uses those I think for animations
  480. # [13:37] <annevk> zcorpan: the DOM had an API for that once too but it never got implemented
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  494. # [13:53] <zcorpan> ok thanks
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  506. # [14:18] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: was there a conclusion for this thread? http://www.w3.org/mid/CAAWBYDA2o-k+Jwd8wbEsuAFbHxubrPTjRt6gaaHZGOi4vkNRVQ@mail.gmail.com
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  516. # [14:31] <zcorpan> https://plus.google.com/100132233764003563318/posts/hqHFwvZhbDS
  517. # [14:33] <hsivonen> zcorpan: why a new tag instead of a facility to make <iframe> disconnect JS from parent?
  518. # [14:33] <zcorpan> don't ask me
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  523. # [14:37] <zcorpan> there's also <webview>, apparently
  524. # [14:38] <hsivonen> zcorpan: the Firefox OS equivalent to <webview> is an attribute on <iframe>
  525. # [14:38] <zcorpan> hsivonen: does the attribute do anything for normal web pages?
  526. # [14:39] <hsivonen> zcorpan: Dunno. probably not.
  527. # [14:40] <zcorpan> hsivonen: what is the attribute called?
  528. # [14:43] <MikeSmith> mozbrowser?
  529. # [14:43] <zcorpan> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/HTML/Element/iframe lists mozapp and mozbrowser
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  534. # [14:58] <annevk> hsivonen: we regard the attribute as a mistake though
  535. # [14:58] <mounir> zcorpan: the attribute is ignored for normal web pages
  536. # [14:58] * jgraham wonders who "we" is in this case
  537. # [14:59] <annevk> jgraham: implementer
  538. # [15:00] <gsnedders> jgraham: Ergh, getting pull requests on code that will conflict with all the flake changes. Yay. :|
  539. # [15:00] <jgraham> gsnedders: YEah, I need to finish your review :p
  540. # [15:01] <gsnedders> (I just rejected the pull request because it made us fail tests. :P)
  541. # [15:01] <jgraham> I saw
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  544. # [15:05] <zcorpan> annevk: what should be used instead?
  545. # [15:05] <zcorpan> annevk: oh i see
  546. # [15:06] <zcorpan> annevk: you mean the attribute should work for normal web pages, too?
  547. # [15:08] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: why are custom properties case sensitive?
  548. # [15:09] <annevk> zcorpan: no, from what I read it would've been better as an element
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  550. # [15:09] <annevk> zcorpan: makes an easier boundary
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  552. # [15:10] <zcorpan> annevk: i don't follow
  553. # [15:10] <mounir> our goal is to move to something like <webview>
  554. # [15:12] <SimonSapin> zcorpan: the general principle is that author-defined stuff is case-sensitive: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-values/#custom-idents
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  558. # [15:16] <annevk> Future.resolve(value) would be equal to Future.any(value)... I guess that's okay.
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  566. # [15:36] <zcorpan> annevk: am i missing something or can i just say that getPropertyValue() must "serialize a CSS value" for the given property? https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/raw-file/tip/cssom/Overview.html#widl-CSSStyleDeclaration-getPropertyValue-DOMString-DOMString-property https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/raw-file/tip/cssom/Overview.html#serializing-css-values
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  569. # [15:39] <annevk> zcorpan: wouldn't that include !important?
  570. # [15:39] <annevk> zcorpan: it wasn't entirely clear whether !important should be there or not iirc
  571. # [15:39] <annevk> not sure what the other issues were
  572. # [15:40] <annevk> I wonder if I kept track of them somehow
  573. # [15:41] <zcorpan> "serialize a CSS component value" doesn't have an entry for !important
  574. # [15:41] <annevk> zcorpan: ah yeah, and then there's the thing with style.color being defined in terms of getPropertyValue, but actually potentially returning different values
  575. # [15:42] <annevk> I guess the latter does need to return !important but getPropertyValue doesn't or some such
  576. # [15:42] <annevk> overall though that API is broken and not a good time
  577. # [15:44] <zcorpan> !important doesn't seem to be returned by style.color
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  580. # [15:45] <annevk> oh okay, so maybe it's all somewhat saner than my recollection :)
  581. # [15:46] <zcorpan> maybe :-) thanks
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  591. # [15:56] <zcorpan> any opinion on null vs empty string for unknown properties?
  592. # [15:57] <zcorpan> chrome returns null, opera/firefox ""
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  594. # [15:58] <zcorpan> ie10 ""
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  597. # [16:13] <annevk> Hixie: I saw you introduced some nice terminology for worker-related stuff
  598. # [16:14] <annevk> Hixie: I'm thinking of sprinkling that around to XMLHttpRequest & friends, URL, FormData, Event?, Future
  599. # [16:14] <annevk> Hixie: is there anything I should be aware of?
  600. # [16:15] <zcorpan> annevk: he said in the relevant bug that he might tweak it some more
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  602. # [16:17] <annevk> I know
  603. # [16:17] <annevk> hence the impatient IRC questions
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  606. # [16:27] <hsivonen> annevk, mounir: ok. moving to something like <webview> is news to me
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  637. # [17:30] <marcosc> tobie: how often are new released of Respec shipped?
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  646. # [18:02] <mounir> hsivonen: that is not a long planned thing though
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  654. # [18:13] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  672. # [18:41] <jgraham> gsnedders: It depends on fullTree=False, right? Which isn't really an internal API
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  674. # [18:45] <tobie> marcosc: I usually bug darobin for this.
  675. # [18:46] <tobie> iirc, he sent me a list of instructions on how to do a release.
  676. # [18:46] <tobie> Will look for the,
  677. # [18:46] <tobie> s/the,/them/
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  692. # [19:05] <Ms2ger> Fwiw, it's not clear if <iframe mozbrowser> will stay
  693. # [19:05] <Ms2ger> Oh look, people said that
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  695. # [19:06] <gsnedders> jgraham: Regardless, the existing code was broken. :P
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  698. # [19:12] <annevk> dglazkov: lets discuss it in the week of May 6
  699. # [19:12] <annevk> dglazkov: I'm not at this TPAC thing you speak of
  700. # [19:12] <annevk> dglazkov: well, at least not one that's running this week
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  704. # [19:23] <gsnedders> jgraham: Okay, if you're using a non-standard etree API which allows access to parents then it can leak. But that's it, I believe.
  705. # [19:23] <gsnedders> jgraham: (The existing code is totally b0rked because it tries to use JS scoping rules in PYthon.)
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  707. # [19:26] <jgraham> gsnedders: What am I missing? You can call getEtreeBuilder with fullTree=True
  708. # [19:26] <jgraham> And then you get that node out
  709. # [19:27] <gsnedders> jgraham: But then html5lib.parseFragment cuts it off, no?
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  716. # [19:30] <jgraham> If you call parseFragment you can't set fullTree, so I don't see how that's relevant
  717. # [19:31] <gsnedders> I dunno, and I have doomexam tomorrow, so I'm not looking at it.
  718. # [19:31] <jgraham> You can do something like builder = getTreeBuilder("etree", fullTree=True)
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  721. # [19:32] <jgraham> HTML5Parser(builder)
  722. # [19:32] <jgraham> .parseFragment
  723. # [19:32] <jgraham> Well if you have an exam, why are you here chatting?
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  725. # [19:33] <jgraham> (I think the only real fix I want is the error to be something better. I don't see the point of going out of our way to support an edge case)
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  731. # [19:39] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Custom properties are case-sensitive because they can contain arbitrary unicode, and we didn't want either (a) unicode case-insensitive matching, nor (b) ascii-case-insensitive matching mixed with non-ascii literal matching.
  732. # [19:39] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Only way around that was to just say that it's entirely case-sensitive.
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  734. # [19:40] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Also, what SimonSapin said - author-defined stuff is generally case-sensitive (for the reasons I gave, though).
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  736. # [19:41] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: by, the way, css-counter-styles is a bit weird regarding this
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  738. # [19:42] <SimonSapin> "Counter style names are case-sensitive. However, the names defined in this specification are ASCII lower-cased on parse wherever they are used as counter styles, e.g. in the list-style set of properties, in the @counter-style rule, and in the counter() functions."
  739. # [19:42] <SimonSapin> The two sentences seem contradictory
  740. # [19:43] <SimonSapin> But I got it later: "the names defined in this specification" shoud be "the name of pre-defined counter styles", with links to section 5 and 6
  741. # [19:43] <SimonSapin> (Which, by the way, is a bit annoying to implement but meh.)
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  743. # [19:53] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Yes, the names defined *in* this spec. ^_^
  744. # [19:53] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: And I'm sure it's annoying to implement, but that's what you get when you invade an existing namespace.
  745. # [19:54] <SimonSapin> yeah, the implementation is manageable
  746. # [19:55] <TabAtkins> By "you invade" I of course mean "I invade".
  747. # [19:55] <SimonSapin> But I’m still having a hard time with "names defined in this spec".
  748. # [19:55] <TabAtkins> Hm?
  749. # [19:55] <SimonSapin> like, <counter-style-name> is defined in this spec
  750. # [19:55] <TabAtkins> ?_?
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  752. # [19:56] <TabAtkins> (?_? is the best emoji, by the way. The question marks look like raised eyebrows!)
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  754. # [19:56] <SimonSapin> It took me a long time to understand that this means just the names of predefined styles, not all counter style names
  755. # [19:57] <TabAtkins> Should I change it to "the names of counter styles defined in this specification"?
  756. # [19:57] <SimonSapin> I’d like the spec to clarify, by saying something like "the name of predefined styles"
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  758. # [19:58] <SimonSapin> "predefined" indicates "these particular instances" rather than "the general concept of counter styles"
  759. # [19:58] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  760. # [19:58] <TabAtkins> Works for me.
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  764. # [20:06] <annevk> can't you spell it out in the parser?
  765. # [20:06] <TabAtkins> annevk: In what parser?
  766. # [20:06] <annevk> the value parser I guess
  767. # [20:06] <TabAtkins> Not really, no.
  768. # [20:06] <TabAtkins> Or rather, not without a lot of difficulty.
  769. # [20:06] <TabAtkins> Given the context-sensitivity.
  770. # [20:06] <annevk> don't you have a value parser per property?
  771. # [20:07] <SimonSapin> annevk: spell what out?
  772. # [20:07] <TabAtkins> We have *grammars* per property, which verify that the parsed value is correct per the property's grammar.
  773. # [20:07] <annevk> hmm
  774. # [20:07] <TabAtkins> Actual parsing is taken care of by a generic error-handling parser, which doesn't care about the individual property grammars.
  775. # [20:07] <TabAtkins> (Otherwise we'd have to amend the parser every time we add a new property or value.)
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  786. # [20:18] <marcosc> tobie: thanks for the info
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  815. # [21:18] <reyre_pc> in regards to WEBVTT -- is there a way that users can add cuetext via java script?
  816. # [21:18] <reyre_pc> we see currently that they can add and create TextTrackCues via javascript
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  824. # [21:32] <reyre_pc> nvm all, i think we've solved the question
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  835. # [21:49] <zcorpan> reyre_pc: you mean modify the text of an existing cue?
  836. # [21:50] <reyre_pc> zcorpan: yeah that's what we realized
  837. # [21:50] <zcorpan> ok. so cue.text :-)
  838. # [21:50] <reyre_pc> zcorpan: if a cue's cue text is modified via script is there a way to detect that it happened
  839. # [21:50] <zcorpan> ho
  840. # [21:50] <zcorpan> oh, even
  841. # [21:51] <reyre_pc> i know there are events for adding and removing cues to a text track
  842. # [21:51] <reyre_pc> but haven't seen any for cuetext changing
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  845. # [21:54] <zcorpan> there's no event for that afaict
  846. # [21:54] <zcorpan> what's the use case?
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  849. # [21:58] <zcorpan> Hixie: does the webvtt spec need to be updated to say to run "time marches on" when .text, .align, etc, are set?
  850. # [21:58] <reyre_pc> zcorpan: a user changes a cues cuetext. we want to use lazy loading so we'd like a way to know that the cue's cuetext has changed
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  852. # [21:59] <zcorpan> reyre_pc: how does the user change cuetext? do you need to know internally or want to expose to scripts on the page?
  853. # [22:00] <reyre_pc> well as far as we understand you can grab cues from the dom via their identifiers in javascript
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  855. # [22:00] <zcorpan> yes or just iterate through them
  856. # [22:00] <reyre_pc> then you can set that TextTrackCues 'text' member
  857. # [22:00] <reyre_pc> changing the cuetext
  858. # [22:00] <zcorpan> by user you mean author (the web developer), not the end-user?
  859. # [22:01] <reyre_pc> well, whoever wants to use java script to manipulate cues on a webpage
  860. # [22:01] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  861. # [22:02] <reyre_pc> we'd like to know internally so we can know when to re-parse the cuetext
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  864. # [22:06] <zcorpan> ok. i guess you need to have an internal listener for changes to the .text attribute or so. how to do that is an implementation detail
  865. # [22:06] <rillian> reyre: I didn't think of cue.text ouch
  866. # [22:06] * rillian bets that's broken everywhere
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  868. # [22:06] <reyre> zcorpan: okay thanks for clarifying :)
  869. # [22:06] <reyre> rillian: oh noe
  870. # [22:07] <zcorpan> i think the webvtt spec needs to say to run the "time marches on" steps when .text et al are set
  871. # [22:07] <zcorpan> like e.g. http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-video-element.html#dom-texttrackcue-starttime does
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  873. # [22:09] <reyre> zcorpan: makes sense
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  875. # [22:13] <zcorpan> oh wait that's covered already, fixed in http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=7429&to=7430
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  879. # [22:13] <zcorpan> end of http://dev.w3.org/html5/webvtt/#data-model
  880. # [22:15] <reyre> zcorpan: okay, saw that one before but was unsure about it
  881. # [22:15] <reyre> thanks :)
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  884. # [22:15] <zcorpan> np
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  886. # [22:19] <TabAtkins> Where's the best version of WebVTT to link to?
  887. # [22:19] <manu-db> Provided without comment: What's wrong with DRM in HTML5: http://yro.slashdot.org/story/13/04/24/209234/whats-actually-wrong-with-drm-in-html5
  888. # [22:23] <rillian> TabAtkins: http://dev.w3.org/html5/webvtt/ was the last place Silvia mentioned updating
  889. # [22:23] <rillian> that's not a frozen publication though
  890. # [22:24] <TabAtkins> rillian: Not a concern.
  891. # [22:24] <TabAtkins> rillian: I just need somewhere to point to as an example of the time-based selectors.
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  907. # [22:43] <MikeSmith> TIL I learned in the HTML WG f2f that we don't actually need to do testing any more to determine interoperability
  908. # [22:43] <MikeSmith> we just get to decide
  909. # [22:43] <MikeSmith> spread the word
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  912. # [22:45] <TabAtkins> Yay!
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  916. # [22:48] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  917. # [22:50] <cabanier1> http://t.co/HA2sgpjs3z
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  919. # [22:52] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: should the spec say something differently for presentational hints?
  920. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> cabanier1: Please pre-resolve your t.co links before posting. ^_^ http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/48714963874/we-dont-need-a-comprehensive-test-suite-to-exit
  921. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Lemme check, I didn't actually look at the text.
  922. # [22:55] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: do you have an example of UA-level preshint?
  923. # [22:55] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Anything in the UA stylesheet. For example, the styling of <i> is, technically, a preshint.
  924. # [22:55] <TabAtkins> Difference is just whether we arbitrarily decide it's a "user-agent default" or an "author choice".
  925. # [22:55] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: oh. i thought that wasn't called preshint
  926. # [22:56] <TabAtkins> Meh, depends on where you're looking perhaps.
  927. # [22:56] <TabAtkins> In casual conversation it has been called such, at least.
  928. # [22:56] <TabAtkins> Where is the function actually defined?
  929. # [22:56] <zcorpan> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/raw-file/tip/cssom/Overview.html#widl-Window-getDefaultComputedStyle-CSSStyleDeclaration-Element-elt-DOMString-pseudoElt
  930. # [22:59] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  931. # [22:59] <TabAtkins> Nope, spec's fine, since all of those things are qualified with "author-level".
  932. # [23:00] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: The issue on serializing <number> can go away, since we allow scinot in numbers now.
  933. # [23:00] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: And I don't understand the issue in <length>.
  934. # [23:00] <zcorpan> author-level was only intended to apply to "author-level style rules"
  935. # [23:01] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: In that case, move it to further down in the list. Leading adjectives normally distribute over lists.
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  937. # [23:01] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  938. # [23:03] <TabAtkins> But if you qualify "preshints" with "author-level", it's completely correct and non-ambiguous.
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  947. # [23:10] <zcorpan> ok fixed
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  950. # [23:12] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Looks good!
  951. # [23:12] <zcorpan> thanks
  952. # [23:12] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
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  955. # [23:16] <GPHemsley> Are there UAs on board with implementing DRM? (If this question opens a can of worms, ignore it.)
  956. # [23:17] * Parts: fourtinkerbells (~Nick@bas1-london15-1279302459.dsl.bell.ca) ("Leaving")
  957. # [23:18] <TabAtkins> Sigh, yes. IE, Chrome, and Safari are all doing it, I believe.
  958. # [23:18] <TabAtkins> Firefox is the holdout.
  959. # [23:18] <TabAtkins> For now.
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  961. # [23:19] <GPHemsley> Ah, so, same as it ever was.
  962. # [23:22] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Btw, no conclusion on the constructable stylesheets thread. We're not to the point of needing to decide on it yet, so feel free to ignore it. We'll poke if it comes up again.
  963. # [23:22] <TabAtkins> (Not to say that I wouldn't mind more constructable things, but I don't have a use-case for them right now.)
  964. # [23:22] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: ok thanks
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  966. # [23:24] * zcorpan marks that thread as read
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  971. # [23:30] <zcorpan> annevk: https://github.com/whatwg/url/commit/1d866b441eef031481bffaa0df9f43630e6fe62e - it's not just when setting .href to something that doesn't resolve, it's setting it to any value
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  974. # [23:35] <MikeSmith> HTML WG f2f update; current status: suffering fools unlightly
  975. # [23:36] <hober> MikeSmith: .
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  977. # [23:38] <jgraham> I thought one suffered fools gladly
  978. # [23:38] <jgraham> How do you do it (un)lightly?
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  980. # [23:38] <jgraham> And is that the same as suffering them heavily?
  981. # [23:39] <jgraham> I sort of imagine that you are all starting to sound like Neil from The Young Ones
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  986. # [23:48] <dlongley> TabAtkins: when calling a function that returns a Future, if that function should throw an exception when too few arguments are passed, should it be done via throw via the resolver's reject mechanism?
  987. # [23:49] <dlongley> when using w3c's idl test harness for WebIDL implementations, functions that return a Future are expected to throw TypeErrors if the number of arguments given is insufficient ...
  988. # [23:49] <dlongley> but this is problematic if you're wrapping something that uses a callback style API -- as the error will not be returned (via the callback) until the Future has actually been resolved (rejected)
  989. # [23:50] <dlongley> i'm hoping that you agree that this is a bug with the idl test harness ... and that if a function returns a future it should be checking that Future for a rejection, rather than looking for exceptions thrown in the method that generates the Future.
  990. # [23:50] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  991. # [23:50] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  992. # [23:51] <dlongley> anyone else in here know anything about DOM Futures?
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  998. # Session Close: Thu Apr 25 00:00:00 2013

The end :)