/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-05-28 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  207. # [09:16] <hsivonen> How close is WebKit-gtk to WebKit-Mac? should I test in Midori/Epiphany or really move to my Mac Mini to test?
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  211. # [09:20] <SimonSapin> hsivonen: I suppose it depends on what you’re testing
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  213. # [09:22] <hsivonen> SimonSapin: DOMContentLoaded, <script defer>, readyState
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  215. # [09:22] <hsivonen> all supposed to live in WebKit
  216. # [09:22] <hsivonen> itself
  217. # [09:22] <hsivonen> rather than port code
  218. # [09:23] <SimonSapin> yes, that’s my limited understanding of webkit ports
  219. # [09:23] <hsivonen> findings so far: Gecko is wrong for <script defer> per spec
  220. # [09:23] <hsivonen> Presto and Blink don't interop on when readyState changes relative to <script defer>
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  224. # [09:26] <hsivonen> unsurprisingly, Safari is like Chrome, still
  225. # [09:26] <hsivonen> waiting for Windows Update to give me a fully-patched IE...
  226. # [09:29] <hsivonen> I wonder how Hixie came up with the rules for <script defer> relative to DOMContentLoaded.
  227. # [09:29] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i think presto doesn't support defer
  228. # [09:29] <hsivonen> zcorpan: ah ok
  229. # [09:29] <hsivonen> at the time, IE didn't support DOMContentLoaded
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  233. # [09:33] <hsivonen> Does Chrome OS run xorg still?
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  239. # [09:55] <jgraham> hsivonen: Yeah, don't worry too much about presto for anything related to script scheduling or document loading
  240. # [09:55] <jgraham> It was all scheduled for a rewrite
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  245. # [10:08] <hsivonen> So it looks like it was indeed I who broke <script defer> in Gecko
  246. # [10:08] <hsivonen> and someone noticed already in 2010
  247. # [10:09] <hsivonen> but it took until now to someone complain enough for it to actually register
  248. # [10:09] <hsivonen> makes one wonder about the utility of <script defer>, though, that this didn't become a big deal back in 2010
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  250. # [10:11] <hsivonen> hmm. I wonder if <script defer> has ever worked right in XSLT in Gecko, though
  251. # [10:11] <jgraham> OK, script defer + XSLT is pretty much the definition of niche case
  252. # [10:12] <jgraham> s/case/feature/
  253. # [10:12] <hsivonen> Thanks to the wonders of XSLT, there's always a 3rd case after HTML and XML
  254. # [10:12] <zcorpan> can we disable defer in the xslt case?
  255. # [10:13] <hsivonen> zcorpan: it would be more work in the Trident/WebKit/Blink XSLT architecture, so probably won't fly
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  257. # [10:13] <zcorpan> ah yeah
  258. # [10:13] <jgraham> I have a feeling that in presto XSLT support was implemented to not create a third case, I think the output just got fed back into the parser or something.
  259. # [10:14] <jgraham> But I really don't remember
  260. # [10:14] <hsivonen> so many things need a rewrite
  261. # [10:14] <hsivonen> Gecko's XSLT output is one of those
  262. # [10:14] <hsivonen> but first I should rewrite how XML is loaded in Gecko
  263. # [10:14] <zcorpan> yes we reparsed the output with the html parser
  264. # [10:14] <hsivonen> that project never got beyond careful planning
  265. # [10:14] <Ms2ger> We need a few clones of hsivonen, clearly
  266. # [10:15] <zcorpan> is there a reason gecko doesn't reparse?
  267. # [10:16] <hsivonen> zcorpan: Gecko does XSLT the Right Way
  268. # [10:16] <zcorpan> hsivonen: my question still stands :-P
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  270. # [10:16] <hsivonen> zcorpan: sicking/peterv/Pike wrote it the Right Way?
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  272. # [10:17] <jgraham> The Right Way does also seem to be The Hard To Maintain Way
  273. # [10:18] <hsivonen> yeah
  274. # [10:18] <zcorpan> yeah, so i actually meant, is there a reason not to change gecko to implement the Wrong Way like everyone else and not have a third mode to worry about?
  275. # [10:18] <hsivonen> and with scripts, the Right Way isn't actually quite right
  276. # [10:18] <jgraham> So given such a marginal feature, it seems that worse is better
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  318. # [12:46] <Ms2ger> Anyone have old IEs around?
  319. # [12:47] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: I do
  320. # [12:48] <Ms2ger> Let me write you a test, then :)
  321. # [12:48] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: OK
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  323. # [12:49] <Ms2ger> hsivonen, http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2259
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  325. # [12:51] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: HTMLInputElement, HTMLImageElement, HTMLImageElement
  326. # [12:51] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: in IE8 on XP
  327. # [12:52] <Ms2ger> :(
  328. # [12:52] <hsivonen> Yeah. :-(
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  331. # [12:56] <zcorpan> why is that :-( ?
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  333. # [12:56] <zcorpan> img needs the form element pointer?
  334. # [12:56] <hsivonen> zcorpan: right
  335. # [12:56] <Ms2ger> It seems to, at least
  336. # [12:57] <hsivonen> so why didn't WebKit devs feed their delta from the spec into the spec?
  337. # [12:57] <zcorpan> seems everyone implements that already?
  338. # [12:57] <hsivonen> zcorpan: Gecko and IE10 follow the spec and don't
  339. # [12:58] <hsivonen> or maybe I should test before I say anything
  340. # [12:58] <zcorpan> my copy of firefox gives the same result
  341. # [12:58] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: is this test case really testing what it is supposed to be testing?
  342. # [12:59] <Ms2ger> I don't know
  343. # [12:59] * hsivonen boots Windows 8
  344. # [13:00] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, Gecko does weird stuff, with <form></form><img> matching, for example
  345. # [13:00] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: same result in IE10
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  347. # [13:01] <Ms2ger> Hrm
  348. # [13:01] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: webkit and presto don't do that
  349. # [13:01] <Ms2ger> I'd hope not!
  350. # [13:02] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: maybe you should have </form> somewhere
  351. # [13:03] <Ms2ger> Gah, sounds like my IE10 is too old, then
  352. # [13:04] <Ms2ger> How about http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2260 ?
  353. # [13:07] <hsivonen> Indeed Gecko tries to support <script defer> with XSLT
  354. # [13:08] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: IE10/Windows 8: HTMLInputElement, HTMLImageElement, undefined
  355. # [13:08] <Ms2ger> Okay
  356. # [13:09] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: IE8/XP: HTMLInputElement, HTMLImageElement, script terminated with error
  357. # [13:09] <Ms2ger> Lovely
  358. # [13:10] <zcorpan> what does ie do for http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2261 ?
  359. # [13:10] * zcorpan bets IE6 crashes
  360. # [13:10] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: script error in IE8
  361. # [13:11] <zcorpan> (for 2260)
  362. # [13:11] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: undefined in IE10
  363. # [13:11] <hsivonen> oops. those were 2261 for zcorpan
  364. # [13:11] <Ms2ger> That was for zcorpan?
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  366. # [13:13] <zcorpan> undefined in ie10/win7 (tested in browserstack)
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  370. # [13:22] <hsivonen> does the spec intend to forbid async scripts from running after a defer script has run but before DOMContentLoaded has fired?
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  381. # [14:20] <zcorpan_> why does cssom have CSSCharsetRule again?
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  383. # [14:21] <zcorpan_> again as in, it was obsolete in the anne-era
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  443. # [15:56] <annevk> :/
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  450. # [16:05] <zcorpan_> thanks annevk
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  456. # Session Close: Tue May 28 16:14:47 2013
  457. #
  458. # Session Start: Tue May 28 16:14:47 2013
  459. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  463. # [16:16] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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  543. # [17:48] <Ms2ger> Nice to have someone working on cssom again
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  546. # [17:51] <darobin> well, I guess I won't fix the PHP configuration on the test server today
  547. # [17:51] * darobin looks for something to break very rudely
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  561. # [18:04] <darobin> jgraham, Ms2ger: if I were to start writing that magic python server, where would I start looking?
  562. # [18:04] <darobin> I need something that's bare bones and doesn't handle any HTTP that I don't want it to, no magic, etc.
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  564. # [18:05] <darobin> I reckon it may just be less painful than trying to set Apache+PHP up so that they work correctly
  565. # [18:05] <jgraham> darobin: Heh
  566. # [18:05] <jgraham> Well
  567. # [18:05] <Ms2ger> https://bitbucket.org/annevk/simpleserver ?
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  569. # [18:06] <darobin> Ms2ger: interesting, thanks
  570. # [18:06] <jgraham> Yeah, using asyncore as the basis could work
  571. # [18:06] <darobin> I guess I need to think about how this needs to work, actually
  572. # [18:06] <jgraham> Right
  573. # [18:06] <jgraham> So, the thing is
  574. # [18:06] <darobin> because it needs to send regular files, well, regularly, and form the same origin
  575. # [18:06] <jgraham> There are kind of competing requirements
  576. # [18:07] <jgraham> For running on local test machines there is no need to service > 1 user
  577. # [18:07] <jgraham> and there is an advantage to handling statefulness in a simple way
  578. # [18:07] <darobin> ah, statefulness too
  579. # [18:07] <jgraham> For running on w3c-test.org is will be exposed to the whole internet
  580. # [18:07] <darobin> right, and we probably want to be able to run something public
  581. # [18:08] <darobin> if nothing else, it makes it easier to talk about stuff
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  615. # [18:08] <darobin> glad we got rid of those people, they were annoying
  616. # [18:09] <jgraham> Most of the Google people seem to use irccloud
  617. # [18:10] <jgraham> Anyway, so in the past
  618. # [18:10] <jgraham> I got to the list of requirements
  619. # [18:10] <jgraham> Realised that they conflict
  620. # [18:10] <jgraham> and gave up
  621. # [18:10] <darobin> heh
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  623. # [18:11] <darobin> I think we can get to something if we work on it based on which HTTP behaviours we need for specific cases
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  625. # [18:12] <darobin> in general, we need something that can serve files correctly — that's easy
  626. # [18:12] <jgraham> Well at a high level
  627. # [18:13] <darobin> then we need specific endpoints to be configurable with specific behaviour such as setting headers, giving raw responses with specific status, being slow
  628. # [18:13] <jgraham> We need the ability for a test to send arbitary bytes over the wire
  629. # [18:13] <jgraham> With specific timing
  630. # [18:13] <darobin> so could we get away with something that just imports python and runs it if it has a given extension?
  631. # [18:13] <jgraham> But yes, there are specific things that are common cases
  632. # [18:13] <darobin> and we can prebuild some common cases
  633. # [18:14] <jgraham> Well we could do that
  634. # [18:14] <jgraham> It mgith be quite hard if the choices are "common case" or "no infrastructure"
  635. # [18:14] <darobin> if .tpy in filename: load it, give it the data and a raw socket; else: send the file
  636. # [18:14] <darobin> well
  637. # [18:15] <darobin> with that scheme we can start with zero infrastructure
  638. # [18:15] <darobin> and pieces that are common, we progressively move them into the core as available services
  639. # [18:15] * Joins: mattgiff_ (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
  640. # [18:15] <jgraham> Well sure, it might make sense to start with something very minimal
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  642. # [18:16] <darobin> if we build it such that it can proxy some paths to another server, we can have a smooth transition
  643. # [18:16] <darobin> I'm guessing there's something in Python that can do proxies easily?
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  646. # [18:18] <darobin> looking at the stuff out there, I find it hard to tell what's fresh and what's dead
  647. # [18:19] <darobin> I'm guessing this might be beyond my python, or at least it'll take me longer than reasonable
  648. # [18:19] <darobin> I'll sleep on it
  649. # [18:19] <jgraham> import time, random
  650. # [18:19] <jgraham> time.sleep(random.randint())
  651. # [18:19] <Ms2ger> Would be nice to have something like ^headers^ too
  652. # [18:20] <darobin> Ms2ger: you mean just a file that sets the headers for a directory?
  653. # [18:20] <Ms2ger> For a file
  654. # [18:20] <Ms2ger> But yes
  655. # [18:20] <jgraham> Turns out that everyone always thinks that the sugar they are used to is really important :)
  656. # [18:21] <Ms2ger> Well, really important
  657. # [18:21] <darobin> Ms2ger: so foo.html.^headers^ or some such?
  658. # [18:21] <Ms2ger> I think it's a reasonably common case, and that foo.html^headers^ solves it quite simply
  659. # [18:21] <Ms2ger> darobin, right
  660. # [18:21] <jgraham> Yeah, that could be true
  661. # [18:21] <darobin> yes that makes sense
  662. # [18:22] <darobin> it's not inherently hard and it's certainly part of the stuff that I'd suggest we add as we progress
  663. # [18:24] * jgraham -> afk
  664. # [18:24] <darobin> yeah, I'm off to 1) drown my attempt at configuring PHP right in beer, and 2) mull over a replacement
  665. # [18:25] <Ms2ger> 3) Implement <blink>?
  666. # [18:25] <darobin> maybe if we wait long enough then having Node as a dependency won't be an issue, and I can code it in a day, two tops :)
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  674. # [18:32] * Hixie is back
  675. # [18:32] <annevk> "Microsoft has been following the discussion on Futures closely both through the W3C and the discussions at TC39 (ECMAScript), and while we don't comment on plans for implementation, I can say that we are generally supportive of the idea."
  676. # [18:32] <Ms2ger> Congratulations!
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  678. # [18:33] <annevk> Hixie: I'm gonna assume next is "brb, reading email" and we won't see you for another couple of weeks :p
  679. # [18:33] <Ms2ger> bholley!
  680. # [18:33] * bholley knew he shouldn't have logged on IRC this morning
  681. # [18:33] <bholley> :-)
  682. # [18:34] <Ms2ger> I've been trying to catch you since Sunday or so :)
  683. # [18:34] * bholley has been away from internet
  684. # [18:34] * Ms2ger moves servers
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  688. # [18:38] <Hixie> annevk: reading e-mail? nah, mark all as read, no?
  689. # [18:38] <Hixie> anyone send me anything important?
  690. # [18:39] <Ms2ger> Your spec for the named getter on form is bogus
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  694. # [18:43] <Hixie> Ms2ger: file a bug
  695. # [18:43] <Hixie> :-)
  696. # [18:44] <Hixie> (or whatwg@ e-mail, i won't mark those as read)
  697. # [18:44] <Hixie> GPHemsley: we should probably encourage people to use their names as usernames rather than companies
  698. # [18:44] <Ms2ger> I already filed one
  699. # [18:44] <Ms2ger> More on their way
  700. # [18:44] <GPHemsley> probably
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  704. # [18:46] <GPHemsley> For non-Mozillians: IE and Opera use the first occurrence of a parameter, Firefox and Chrome use the last occurrence
  705. # [18:46] <GPHemsley> no one does what the RFC says, which is to treat the whole MIME type as invalid
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  718. # [19:02] <Hixie> i wonder what we should do about <meta name>
  719. # [19:02] <Hixie> on the one hand, everyone under the sun seems to invent their own value to use
  720. # [19:03] <Hixie> on the other, 99% of these values (at a guess) are never actually consumed by any software and are therefore just wasting author's time
  721. # [19:03] <Ms2ger> If it makes authors happy, can you really say that's a waste of their time?
  722. # [19:03] <Hixie> not clear that it makes them happy
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  724. # [19:06] <Hixie> zcorpan: for your doc, you could name it "How HTML has evolved since 1998"
  725. # [19:09] * krijnhuman is now known as krijn
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  733. # [19:25] <GPHemsley> Hixie: You mean you don't like fielding a hundred requests for accounts just to add spec-less meta extensions?
  734. # [19:25] <Hixie> no, we could solve that problem orthogonally
  735. # [19:26] <Hixie> (e.g. providing a web form)
  736. # [19:26] <GPHemsley> ah
  737. # [19:26] <GPHemsley> true
  738. # [19:26] <Hixie> we're fielding requests intentionally, as a way to see whether people actually do have so many crazy values intentionally
  739. # [19:26] <Hixie> it seems the answer is yes
  740. # [19:27] <GPHemsley> heh
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  743. # [19:27] <GPHemsley> you could go the MIME type route and have multiple types of values
  744. # [19:27] <GPHemsley> those with specs, those for private use or whatever
  745. # [19:28] <Hixie> well clearly we could have more specced values and less specced values
  746. # [19:28] <Hixie> but the question is really what to do about the latter
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  749. # [19:28] * GPHemsley shrugs
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  759. # [19:35] <bradeeoh> Hixie: ping
  760. # [19:35] * bradeeoh is now known as bradee-oh
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  762. # [19:36] <Hixie> bradee-oh: pong
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  769. # [19:41] <bradee-oh> Hixie: hi - I'm crafting an email to whatwg, but as I was, I noticed the plot was thicker than I originally noticed...
  770. # [19:42] <bradee-oh> Hixie: re: pagehide events and page visibility.
  771. # [19:42] <bradee-oh> Hixie: I guess I have two issues:
  772. # [19:42] <bradee-oh> 1 - The original issue I was going to email about. "unload a document" used to go "pagehide, then unload event, then no more events"
  773. # [19:43] <bradee-oh> Now it goes "pagehide, visibilitychanged, unload, then no more events"
  774. # [19:43] <bradee-oh> Hixie: this breaks an original goal of pagehide to be a drop-in replacement for the unload event (i.e., it's the last event you'll get)
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  778. # [19:44] <bradee-oh> Hixie: It also doesn't make sense in the standalone world of pagehide/pageshow. "If I get a pagehide event with persisted == true, then I expect no more events until I get pageshow"
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  782. # [19:45] <bradee-oh> Hixie: but that leads to my second question... apparently the spec never allows for "pagehide with persisted set to true". I could swear that it did at one time, and WebKit certainly dispatches such events.
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  784. # [19:45] <Hixie> bradee-oh: huh
  785. # [19:45] <bradee-oh> Hixie: and such an event is necessary for scripts to play with page caching.
  786. # [19:45] <Hixie> bradee-oh: i forget why we added visibilitychanged
  787. # [19:45] <Hixie> bradee-oh: does anyone implement it yet? If not, we could move it to before pagehide
  788. # [19:46] <Hixie> bradee-oh: in general, please do send the e-mail, i don't have any of this paged in and so i don't have anything useful to contribute right now :-(
  789. # [19:46] <bradee-oh> Hixie: We added it for tab visibility - background tabs, minimized windows, etc etc
  790. # [19:46] <bradee-oh> Hixie: okay - Should I put all of this in one, or start two threads?
  791. # [19:47] <bradee-oh> Hixie: I don't know about pagevis implementors yet, but I don't think we'll implement it as-is because of this holdup (https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116769)
  792. # [19:48] <Hixie> bradee-oh: one mail is fine by me
  793. # [19:48] <bradee-oh> Hixie: okay. Thanks!
  794. # [19:48] <Hixie> (e-mails i can split easily, bugs i can't. so i prefer e-mails to have lots of issues, and bugs to have one.)
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  798. # [19:51] <GPHemsley> quick poll (no cheating!): what would the charset be for a document tagged with this MIME type:
  799. # [19:51] <GPHemsley> text/xml;test=ISO-8859-2 test te"st ; charset=ISO-8859-3; testing=asd"asd; charset=ISO-8859-4
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  801. # [19:51] <Hixie> -3 probably
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  803. # [19:52] <GPHemsley> Hixie: What made you come to that conclusion?
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  805. # [19:53] <Hixie> [text/xml] [;] [test] = [ISO-8859-2 test te"st] [;] [charset] = [ISO-8859-3] [;] <abort>
  806. # [19:53] <annevk> isn't that a parse error theoretically?
  807. # [19:53] <GPHemsley> theoretically, but not in practice
  808. # [19:54] <Hixie> am i right? :-)
  809. # [19:54] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Depends on who you ask ;)
  810. # [19:54] <Yuhong> Hixie: on http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1115899732&count=1, this crash was later discovered again in http://blogs.norman.com/2011/security-research/drag-and-drop-vulnerability-in-ms11-050 and turned out to be exploitable and fixed in MS11-050.
  811. # [19:54] <Hixie> GPHemsley: figures
  812. # [19:54] <GPHemsley> preliminary question, what about this:
  813. # [19:54] <GPHemsley> text/xml;charset=ISO-8859-3;charset=ISO-8859-4
  814. # [19:54] <Hixie> Yuhong: good times
  815. # [19:54] <Hixie> GPHemsley: -3, i hope, but it depends on whether you abort early or not
  816. # [19:55] <GPHemsley> presume you are reading the entire MIME type at once (not just looking for the charset specifically)
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  818. # [19:55] <GPHemsley> though you raise a good point
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  820. # [19:56] <Hixie> most of the time when you want a charset you are only looking for the charset
  821. # [19:56] <Hixie> not parsing the type
  822. # [19:56] <Hixie> in my experience
  823. # [19:56] <Hixie> see also the text/html charset sniffer in the html parser
  824. # [19:56] <GPHemsley> presume you are parsing the MIME type in general, and getting the charset is only a side effect
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  826. # [19:57] <GPHemsley> (these examples are only using the charset as an easily testable proxy)
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  828. # [19:57] <GPHemsley> (though I suppose if there are parsers that are looking for that parameter specifically, that'd be a problem)
  829. # [19:58] <jgraham> Hixie: Hej :) I hope you enjoyed your time away from angle brackets :)
  830. # [19:58] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Do you have a link to the text/html charset sniffer for me?
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  832. # [19:58] <Hixie> jgraham: it was nice :-)
  833. # [19:58] <Hixie> GPHemsley: one sec
  834. # [19:58] <jgraham> OK, that was one smilie more than I needed
  835. # [19:58] <Ms2ger> :):)
  836. # [19:58] <jgraham> Now I am worried I am turning into a lunatic
  837. # [19:59] <Ms2ger> Turning?
  838. # [19:59] <Hixie> GPHemsley: oh i guess it's just for <meta> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#algorithm-for-extracting-a-character-encoding-from-a-meta-element
  839. # [19:59] * GPHemsley wishes people used the multipage version more often
  840. # [19:59] <Hixie> but you'll love that algorithm
  841. # [20:00] <Hixie> just keep the single page one open, then paste the url into that tab and it'll jump without reloading
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  843. # [20:01] <GPHemsley> I suppose I could do that
  844. # [20:01] <GPHemsley> but anyway
  845. # [20:01] <GPHemsley> take my tests again pretending you are not just looking for charset specifically
  846. # [20:01] <Hixie> ah
  847. # [20:01] <Hixie> dunno then
  848. # [20:02] <Hixie> don't we generally ignore parameters? :-)
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  850. # [20:04] <GPHemsley> gah, you're no fun :P
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  852. # [20:04] <Yuhong> Tested and on IE10 it deletes the text from the original location, while on Firefox it doesn't.
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  854. # [20:05] <Yuhong> On Chrome it don't work.
  855. # [20:05] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Anyway, the way things are, if you have a parameter with an unquoted value, you ignore anything that comes after the first whitespace character.
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  857. # [20:05] <GPHemsley> so charset=ISO-8859-1 this is ignored;test=bla
  858. # [20:06] <GPHemsley> the question is what to do about quotation marks
  859. # [20:06] <GPHemsley> some implementations will treat the quotation mark as a quotation mark and look for its match before deciding what to ignore
  860. # [20:06] <Hixie> weird
  861. # [20:06] <GPHemsley> others will ignore all characters that aren't semicolon
  862. # [20:07] <GPHemsley> so the question is, what do I put in the algorithm? :P
  863. # [20:07] <GPHemsley> it seems to be leaning towards not matching quotes in this case
  864. # [20:07] <GPHemsley> which IE, Opera, and Safari appear to agree with
  865. # [20:07] <GPHemsley> Firefox and Chrome, on the other hand, will each up that whole chunk between the two quotation marks and ignore that
  866. # [20:07] <GPHemsley> s/each/eat/
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  868. # [20:08] <GPHemsley> meaning if you happen to have an unmatched quotation mark, the whole rest of the MIME type is ignored
  869. # [20:08] <Hixie> is there any way to test this other than charset?
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  871. # [20:08] <GPHemsley> not that I'm aware of
  872. # [20:08] <GPHemsley> but I'm not aware of much :P
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  875. # [20:09] <GPHemsley> what is the XML format parameter? anything visible?
  876. # [20:09] <Hixie> never heard of it
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  878. # [20:09] <GPHemsley> then I have no idea
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  880. # [20:10] <GPHemsley> I'm inclined to not match quotes
  881. # [20:10] <GPHemsley> but it has been suggested that tokenizing might be done before parsing
  882. # [20:10] <GPHemsley> though that would probably be in violation of the spec, as written
  883. # [20:10] * GPHemsley shrugs
  884. # [20:12] <Hixie> !@#$%^&*( https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22106 wtf
  885. # [20:12] <Hixie> GPHemsley: if there's no way to test it, you may be trying to solve a non-problem. :-)
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  888. # [20:18] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Well, yes and no
  889. # [20:18] <GPHemsley> Hixie: There are some browsers that will use the last charset value and some that will use the first
  890. # [20:19] <GPHemsley> So I think there's something in play here
  891. # [20:20] <GPHemsley> but seeing as how I would prefer the simpler solution, and a majority of browsers agree with me, I think I'll go with that
  892. # [20:20] <GPHemsley> (majority out of 5, that is)
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  897. # [20:23] * GPHemsley wonders if he should allow single quotes for quoted parameter values, too
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  899. # [20:24] <GPHemsley> (probably not)
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  909. # [20:37] <GPHemsley> ugh
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  913. # [20:39] <GPHemsley> the browsers that do charset-first are also the ones that do non-quote-matching, and the same for charset-last and quote-matching
  914. # [20:39] <GPHemsley> except Safari
  915. # [20:40] <GPHemsley> because now I have to figure out whether to allow backslash to escape a semicolon in order to be ignored
  916. # [20:40] <GPHemsley> as in:
  917. # [20:40] <GPHemsley> text/xml;charset=ISO-8859-2 test te\;charset=ISO-8859-5 test; testing=asd\;asd
  918. # [20:40] <GPHemsley> allow backslash to escape in an ignorable element, and that declares no charset
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  920. # [20:41] <GPHemsley> don't allow it to, and it does
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  925. # [20:50] <Hixie> ok, mailbox is dealt with
  926. # [20:50] <Hixie> now lunch
  927. # [20:51] <Ms2ger> I assume "dealt with" doesn't imply "read"
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  929. # [20:54] <Hixie> i read most of them
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  931. # [20:55] <Ms2ger> How many were there, I wonder?
  932. # [20:56] <GPHemsley> hsivonen: You there?
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  934. # [20:57] <GPHemsley> Anyone have IE handy?
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  940. # [21:00] <GPHemsley> Here's a fun one:
  941. # [21:00] <GPHemsley> text/xml;test=asdf\;charset=ISO-8859-3 test;charset=ISO-8859-2 te\"st;testing=te"st;charset=ISO-8859-5
  942. # [21:00] <GPHemsley> Four possible encodings
  943. # [21:01] <GPHemsley> (utf-8 is the default for XML)
  944. # [21:01] <GPHemsley> and at least one browser does each one
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  949. # [21:03] <GPHemsley> Firefox and Chrome do the same thing, but that's because they both match quotes
  950. # [21:03] <GPHemsley> I'm curious what IE does
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  952. # [21:03] <GPHemsley> (IE has so far been patterning mostly with Opera)
  953. # [21:05] <Ms2ger> Other way around, probably
  954. # [21:05] <GPHemsley> well, yeah, but from my point of view :)
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  958. # [21:07] <qwebirc364527> what is the best channel to ask questions about html5 and css3?
  959. # [21:08] <aklein> Hixie: yt? I've got some questions about the 'calling scripts' algorithm, especially as it regards microtask checkpoints
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  967. # [21:15] <GPHemsley> regarding that last example: Firefox and Chrome choose -5, Opera chooses -3, Safari chooses utf-8
  968. # [21:15] <GPHemsley> so I guess no one actually chooses -2
  969. # [21:15] <GPHemsley> unless IE does
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  971. # [21:16] <GPHemsley> a UA that allowed semicolon escaping would choose -2
  972. # [21:17] <GPHemsley> err, rather, a UA that allowed semicolon escaping AND used the first occurrence of a valid charset parameter
  973. # [21:17] <GPHemsley> (this is all very complicated)
  974. # [21:18] <GPHemsley> it's not clear what made Safari just reject everything and default to utf-8
  975. # [21:19] <GPHemsley> oh, unless...
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  977. # [21:20] <GPHemsley> perhaps Sarfari is sniffing for HTML
  978. # [21:20] <GPHemsley> which would mean it treats the whole thing as invalid
  979. # [21:22] <GPHemsley> if that's true, it makes everything else even more complicated...
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  989. # [21:36] <GPHemsley> Anyone with IE, what's the encoding on this page? http://whatwg.gphemsley.org/tests/mimesniff/sniffing.php?ct=text/xml;test=asdf\;charset=ISO-8859-3%20test;charset=ISO-8859-2%20te\%22st;testing=te%22st;charset=ISO-8859-5
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  991. # [21:40] <GPHemsley> (at least Safari isn't treating it as invalid... I guess)
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  1007. # [21:59] <GPHemsley> Is it possible to determine the MIME type of an iframe using JavaScript?
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  1013. # [22:03] <zcorpan> Hixie: i think i'll not change the title again :-)
  1014. # [22:03] <Ms2ger> B-b-b-b-but
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  1016. # [22:05] <GPHemsley> apparently only in Firefox and IE...?
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  1028. # [22:22] <zcorpan> GPHemsley: if everyone is doing different things, just spec the simplest sane thing you can come up with :-)
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  1042. # [22:38] <Hixie> aklein: here
  1043. # [22:38] <Hixie> zcorpan: i figured :-)
  1044. # [22:40] <aklein> Hixie: hi there. the algorithm at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/webappapis.html#calling-scripts looks to me like it might be "perfoming a microtask checkpoint" too often
  1045. # [22:40] <aklein> Hixie: the "microtask" is meant to end only when the outermost script invocation returns
  1046. # [22:42] <aklein> but my reading of that section is that causing one script to be invoked from another (say, by synchronously dispatching an event via a call to HTMLElement.focus() inside an onclick handler) causes a checkpoint to be performed in the "middle" of the click handler (and then again at the end)
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  1048. # [22:44] <aklein> Gecko, WebKit, and Blink all do the right thing, but I think the spec likely needs a fix (this was noticed by someone unfamiliar with microtasks trying to understand them by reading the spec)
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  1051. # [22:44] <Hixie> aklein: i think that was done intentionally, but let me check the history...
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  1056. # [22:46] <Hixie> aklein: see https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19554
  1057. # [22:46] <Hixie> aklein: it's intentional (and it is hoped that the browsers will change accordingly)
  1058. # [22:46] <Hixie> aklein: however, if the browsers won't change, then obviously we should change the spec
  1059. # [22:47] <aklein> Hixie: hmm, interesting, reading...
  1060. # [22:51] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@50-0-120-82.dedicated.static.sonic.net)
  1061. # [22:52] <aklein> Hixie: more generally, I'm interested in the problem of specs not referencing this "jump to a code-entry point" algorithm. e.g., DOM core doesn't use that algorithm when describing how events are dispatched. is that just a bug?
  1062. # [22:53] <aklein> it seems like the layering is tricky, though
  1063. # [22:53] <aklein> since DOM isn't supposed to refer to HTML
  1064. # [22:54] <Hixie> doublec: yt?
  1065. # [22:54] <Hixie> aklein: yeah i think i need to rework it to be in terms of the JS spec
  1066. # [22:55] <Hixie> aklein: there's a bug on that too, hold on
  1067. # [22:57] <Hixie> aklein: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18242
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  1070. # [22:59] <aklein> Hixie: my read of 19554: it looks you went with sicking's suggestion to do "outermost script exits" for blob url autorevoking, but left "perform microtask checkpoint" as running every time through the script-calling algorithm. and I don't see discussion about that issue on that bug.
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  1075. # [23:01] <Hixie> aklein: ah, maybe it was an error then. can you file a new bug?
  1076. # [23:01] <aklein> Hixie: will do
  1077. # [23:01] <Hixie> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21851 makes no sense to me. can someone explain this? (the issue of putting .text on the abstract cue interface)
  1078. # [23:01] <Hixie> aklein: thanks
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  1080. # [23:04] <rafaelw> Hixie: Can we abstract all uses of end-of-microtask into some kind of microtask work queue
  1081. # [23:05] <rafaelw> and mutation observers, table sort, blob urls, etc... will all be microtask work queue types.
  1082. # [23:05] <rafaelw> it looks like we now have at least four types of work happening without consistent semantics.
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  1084. # [23:05] <rafaelw> (mutation observers, table sorting, blob url revokation, custom element callbacks).
  1085. # [23:05] <aklein> rafaelw: this seems to already be partially done, there's a list of "global script clean-up jobs"
  1086. # [23:07] <Hixie> rafaelw: don't they all have slightly different needs?
  1087. # [23:07] <rafaelw> I really hope not.
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  1089. # [23:07] <rafaelw> That would be unfortunate.
  1090. # [23:07] <rafaelw> Adam is right, the closest thing here is the script cleanup steps.
  1091. # [23:08] <rafaelw> I think maybe the global script cleanup jobs list needs a more general name: like global microtask work item
  1092. # [23:08] <aklein> sicking & smaug____ might be interested in ^^^ as well
  1093. # [23:09] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
  1094. # [23:09] <rafaelw> (and arun if he's nearby)
  1095. # [23:10] <sicking> the way that mark miller proposed modeling it is that the "end of microtask" list is like a special task source
  1096. # [23:10] <sicking> which has higher prioirty than all other task sources
  1097. # [23:10] <sicking> i kind'a like that
  1098. # [23:11] <rafaelw> presumably the current implementations fit that description?
  1099. # [23:11] <sicking> i'm not sure that that's compatible with how mutation observers are defined right now, but I bet it could be made compatible with that
  1100. # [23:11] <Hixie> i've suggested doing that
  1101. # [23:11] <Hixie> but iirc there's problems with it
  1102. # [23:11] <sicking> rafaelw: it's not how gecko does it
  1103. # [23:11] <rafaelw> what's the semantic difference?
  1104. # [23:11] <sicking> rafaelw: does mutation observers do anything differently once all mutation observers have been notified?
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  1106. # [23:12] <sicking> specifically, say that I have 3 observers
  1107. # [23:12] <sicking> A B and C
  1108. # [23:12] <sicking> if I do something that ends up wanting to notify all 3
  1109. # [23:12] <GPHemsley> zcorpan: That's the plan :)
  1110. # [23:13] <sicking> and then I return to the event loop, which means that we start notifying them
  1111. # [23:13] <sicking> we start with notifying A
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  1113. # [23:13] <sicking> and then we notify B, but B does something that wants to notify A and C
  1114. # [23:13] <sicking> which one is notified after that? A or C?
  1115. # [23:13] <rafaelw> C
  1116. # [23:13] <smaug____> (microtask doesn't necessarily mean returning to event loop)
  1117. # [23:14] <rafaelw> then A
  1118. # [23:14] <rafaelw> conceptually, you can think about the delivery steps like this:
  1119. # [23:14] <sicking> rafaelw: ok, so we just add to C's list, and then add to A's list which adds A to the end of the queue?
  1120. # [23:14] <rafaelw> let currentRecipients be currentRecipients
  1121. # [23:14] <rafaelw> clear currentRecipients
  1122. # [23:14] <rafaelw> while (currentRecipients.length)
  1123. # [23:15] <rafaelw> next = currentRecipients.shift();
  1124. # [23:15] <rafaelw> if (next.stillNeedsDelivery) next.deliver()
  1125. # [23:15] <sicking> rafaelw: you're already describing a different model than a task source
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  1127. # [23:16] <sicking> rafaelw: having it be a task source would require there not being a "currentReciptients" concept
  1128. # [23:17] <rafaelw> is there any advantage to the task source scheduling that you're thinking of?
  1129. # [23:17] <sicking> since "currentReciptients" require going through the contents of the task source and picking out things that are specifically MO tasks
  1130. # [23:17] <rafaelw> no. it wouldn't
  1131. # [23:18] <sicking> rafaelw: Not sure. There might be the advantage that we can put more things in the task source while having a defined interaction and order
  1132. # [23:18] <sicking> i'm not sure how we can define more things happning at "end of microtask" right now
  1133. # [23:18] <Hixie> see https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20821 for more discussion on this btw
  1134. # [23:19] <rafaelw> it seems like there are two (somewhat orthogonal issues)
  1135. # [23:19] <rafaelw> a) when delivery happens
  1136. # [23:19] <rafaelw> b) how delivery happens.
  1137. # [23:20] <sicking> yup
  1138. # [23:20] <sicking> well
  1139. # [23:20] <sicking> what do you mean by the "how"?
  1140. # [23:20] <rafaelw> (and I suppose) whether all clients can live with the same semantics of a single a & b.
  1141. # [23:20] <rafaelw> delivery scheduling
  1142. # [23:20] <rafaelw> (i.e. m.o vs task source)
  1143. # [23:21] <sicking> so a == "when do we run 'end of microtask' stuff", and b == "in what order does 'end of microtask' stuff run"?
  1144. # [23:21] <rafaelw> yes.
  1145. # [23:21] <sicking> then yes, i agree
  1146. # [23:21] <smaug____> isn't a) clear
  1147. # [23:21] <sicking> i thought so
  1148. # [23:21] <rafaelw> that's what i'm hoping, the current spec language is clearly wrong.
  1149. # [23:22] <rafaelw> there are two problems with the current wording (wrt a)
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  1152. # [23:25] <rafaelw> 1) http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/webappapis.html#calling-scripts will Perform a microtask checkpoint, when there is a running script
  1153. # [23:25] <rafaelw> 2) there are multiple kinds of work which are happening here, and it seems like they should all be clients of the same mechanism.
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  1156. # [23:27] <sicking> rafaelw: doesn't step 5 in that algorithm only do the microtask checkpoint if it's the outermost running script?
  1157. # [23:27] <sicking> oh, no
  1158. # [23:27] <sicking> step 6 is what does the checkpoint
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  1161. # [23:28] <rafaelw> right. that's why adam was suggesting that step 5 is closest to what we need here.
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  1163. # [23:29] <rafaelw> although, we need think thing to also be invoked at the end of the current Task, so it makes somewhat less sense to call it (global script clean-up jobs)
  1164. # [23:29] <sicking> the cleanup jobs stuff isn't even agreed upon being a workable idea. I think Google is wary so far
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  1166. # [23:30] <sicking> weary even
  1167. # [23:30] <rafaelw> well, i think we can treat that as a separate issue.
  1168. # [23:30] <rafaelw> (presumably that's about File stuff).
  1169. # [23:30] <sicking> yes, definitely separate, sorry
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  1171. # [23:30] <rafaelw> at very least, there are m.o., custom element callbacks and table sorting.
  1172. # [23:31] <rafaelw> that are all "end of microtask"
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  1174. # [23:31] <rafaelw> (and if their needs are different, i'm not aware of it).
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  1179. # [23:37] <Hixie> can anyone figure out what https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22049 means?
  1180. # [23:38] <rafaelw> is this a reasonable way to clean this up: I'll write-up a proposal for cleaning up the language, attach it to a whatwg bug, and start cc'd folks -- and the folks i ad can make sure the right stake holders are added (that i missed)?
  1181. # [23:38] <sicking> The way I'd like to define things is that there's an "end of microtask" queue of work items. These items are always added to the end of the queue and always run in queue order. Only once the queue is empty do we continue with doing whatever else we had planned to do (like calling the next event handler for example). M.o. would, when they detect that a MO gets its first entry, queue a work item at the end of the microtask queue which notifies t
  1182. # [23:38] <sicking> MO. When a MO gets additional entries, nothings needed to be done.
  1183. # [23:38] <rafaelw> s/ad/add
  1184. # [23:38] <sicking> rafaelw: that soudns good
  1185. # [23:39] <rafaelw> ok, well now you've opened issue b
  1186. # [23:39] <rafaelw> so let's talk about it briefly.
  1187. # [23:39] <sicking> rafaelw: ah, yes, definitely
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  1189. # [23:39] <sicking> rafaelw: sorry, my mind has been more occupied with b
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  1192. # [23:41] <sicking> rafaelw: i guess it would be nice if the table sorting happened before notifying any MO. Since otherwise we'd might notify it twice rather than once. But that requires tricky knowledge about different end-of-microtask-work-items
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  1195. # [23:46] <rafaelw> so adam and I were just talking about this and we think it's probably ok to use a regular Task queue.
  1196. # [23:46] <rafaelw> M.O. will need to schedule a single task for all observers and make sure its pending every time a new record gets enqueue to an observer
  1197. # [23:46] <sicking> rafaelw: won't that cause these things to run after an event has fully run? Rather than after each event handler
  1198. # [23:47] <rafaelw> sorry. have you jumped back to talking about (a)?
  1199. # [23:47] <sicking> rafaelw: or do you mean "task queue that runs at the end of microtask"
  1200. # [23:47] <rafaelw> yes.
  1201. # [23:47] <sicking> rafaelw: ok, i'm with you
  1202. # [23:47] <sicking> why do you need a single task for all observers?
  1203. # [23:47] <rafaelw> the issue with scheduling for m.o is that delivery is ordered by observer *creation time*.
  1204. # [23:47] <rafaelw> so each delivery cycle needs to sort the observers which are about to be delivered to.
  1205. # [23:48] <sicking> oooh :(
  1206. # [23:48] <sicking> why do we use observer creation time?
  1207. # [23:49] <rafaelw> well, first it was a useful construct because pages can control order of delivery by creating their observers in the right sequence.
  1208. # [23:49] <rafaelw> but the real reason is that ordering by *mutation* order would have risked exposing implementation details.
  1209. # [23:49] <rafaelw> and being non-compat.
  1210. # [23:50] <rafaelw> (or very hard to spec)
  1211. # [23:50] <sicking> mm.. good point
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  1213. # [23:51] <rafaelw> so i think it makes sense to use a FIFO queue (avoid Task queue for clarity).
  1214. # [23:51] <rafaelw> the wording for m.o. gets more complex, but i think that's ok.
  1215. # [23:51] <sicking> yeah
  1216. # [23:51] <rafaelw> and i think we're all agreed on the timing, but the spec is just in need to a fix-up.
  1217. # [23:52] <rafaelw> any other problems you can think of? otherwise I'll go write it up and open the bug.
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  1219. # [23:52] <sicking> we'd have to define things like, what happens if a MO does something that both cause additional MOs needing to be called, and also cause tables to need to be re-sorted. Does those MOs get called before or after the table is sorted?
  1220. # [23:53] <sicking> I.e. say that you have observers A and B created
  1221. # [23:53] <sicking> and you do a mutation that requires A to fire
  1222. # [23:53] <sicking> so then A fires, and it does a mutation which requires B to get fired and also mutates a table.
  1223. # [23:53] <sicking> does B run before or after table is resorted?
  1224. # [23:54] <sicking> and would the answer be different if the initial mutation had required both A and B to get notified?
  1225. # [23:54] <rafaelw> so i have an opinion...
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  1227. # [23:56] <sicking> i don't think i have a strong opinion. Though it seems iffy if the answer depends on if B was originally scheduled or not
  1228. # [23:56] <rafaelw> i think when m.o. runs, it *has* to deliver to all observers that are "activated" before it calls the first one.
  1229. # [23:57] <rafaelw> i think the question is where it continues delivering until there are no "active" observers, or if it yields to other types of work.
  1230. # [23:57] <rafaelw> s/where/whether
  1231. # [23:59] <sicking> makes sense
  1232. # Session Close: Wed May 29 00:00:00 2013

The end :)