/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-06-04 / end

Options:

# Session Start: Tue Jun 04 00:00:00 2013
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [00:01] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-52-206.dsl.telepac.pt)
# [00:02] * Joins: aklein (uid4454@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xkieaywttskitmmg)
# [00:02] * Quits: krit (~krit@221x249x212x15.ap221.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [00:03] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@v-1045.fw1.sfo1.mozilla.net)
# [00:07] * Quits: AladinBouzerd_ (~aladinbou@41.104.70.114) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
# [00:08] * Joins: baku (~baku@2-236-39-253.ip231.fastwebnet.it)
# [00:11] * Joins: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-118-109-238-83.kng.mesh.ad.jp)
# [00:12] * Quits: RobbertAtWork (~robbertat@212.238.236.229) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [00:12] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@cpe-70-112-101-224.austin.res.rr.com) (Quit: Leaving...)
# [00:14] * Quits: baku (~baku@2-236-39-253.ip231.fastwebnet.it) (Quit: Leaving)
# [00:16] * Quits: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-118-109-238-83.kng.mesh.ad.jp) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
# [00:24] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@cpe-70-112-101-224.austin.res.rr.com)
# [00:35] * Quits: deuley (~deuley@50.56.228.48) (Quit: Bye.)
# [00:36] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-52-206.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [00:38] * Quits: josemanuel (~josemanue@162.208.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es) (Quit: Saliendo)
# [00:40] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@v-1045.fw1.sfo1.mozilla.net) (Quit: sicking)
# [00:41] * Quits: necolas (~necolas@8.25.197.25) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [00:41] * Quits: nessy (~silviapf@124-168-10-95.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [00:42] * Joins: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-118-109-238-83.kng.mesh.ad.jp)
# [00:44] * Quits: Martin1982 (~Martin198@541A8D15.cm-5-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Quit: Gone snoring)
# [00:46] * Quits: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-118-109-238-83.kng.mesh.ad.jp) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [00:47] * Joins: jarek (~jarek@unaffiliated/jarek)
# [00:51] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@2.25.62.115) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [00:53] * Quits: boogyman (~dividingl@pdpc/supporter/professional/boogyman) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [01:01] * Quits: sgalineau (~sylvaing@sjfw1-a.adobe.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [01:01] * Joins: Robbert_ (~robbert@212.238.236.229)
# [01:06] * Quits: Robbert_ (~robbert@212.238.236.229) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [01:07] * Joins: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-118-109-238-83.kng.mesh.ad.jp)
# [01:07] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.114.107.81)
# [01:12] * Joins: reyre_ (~reyre_@CPE7cb21b1e2cf4-CM7cb21b1e2cf1.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
# [01:14] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@60.32.72.88)
# [01:15] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@221x249x212x15.ap221.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [01:18] * Joins: ojan (uid5519@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jareismsucdrjxdp)
# [01:18] * Joins: yoav (~yoav@sdo26-1-78-245-148-181.fbx.proxad.net)
# [01:21] <dekiss> can I send informations from server to client every 1 min while web page is open? websockets I think is used for this? is that ok if I use it or which are my options?
# [01:23] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@cpe-70-112-101-224.austin.res.rr.com) (Quit: Leaving...)
# [01:23] * Quits: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-118-109-238-83.kng.mesh.ad.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [01:27] * Joins: birtles (~chatzilla@61-121-216-2.bitcat.net)
# [01:28] <Hixie> dekiss: for web authoring questions you probably want another forum, like #html5 or some such
# [01:28] <Hixie> dekiss: here you're more likely to get snarky comments and venting than advice :-)
# [01:28] <dekiss> can I restrict some web page so not all can see it? and if yes how please?
# [01:29] <dekiss> should I check for origin or?
# [01:29] <dekiss> Hixie ah ok man sry :)
# [01:30] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@v-1045.fw1.sfo1.mozilla.net)
# [01:30] <dekiss> I never understood who make html and how it's made and this mailing system
# [01:31] <Hixie> i'm not saying you can't ask here, just that if you want answers, this isn't hte best place for you :-)
# [01:31] <Hixie> at least, if you want useful answers
# [01:31] <dekiss> ok thanks
# [01:31] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-52-206.dsl.telepac.pt)
# [01:31] <dekiss> man who makes HTML specification?
# [01:31] <dekiss> you? ^^
# [01:31] <dekiss> editors?
# [01:32] * heycam|away|away is now known as heycam|away
# [01:32] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [01:32] <Hixie> i write the text
# [01:32] <Hixie> if that's what you mean
# [01:32] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98)
# [01:34] * Joins: ap (~ap@2620:149:4:1b01:202e:3369:92fe:a565)
# [01:35] <ap> Hixie: I honestly have a difficulty responding to <https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21416>. There is a word "associate" in the algorithm that I don't understand. What is the expected result of doing an "associate"?
# [01:36] <ap> Hixie: is it that both sides will immediately know that they are "associated"?
# [01:36] <dekiss> I ment who is making the web these days?
# [01:36] <dekiss> HTML standard
# [01:36] <ap> Hixie: in such case, I just don't know how to implement that
# [01:37] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
# [01:38] <Hixie> ap: is there any observable way to tell if it's instant or not?
# [01:38] <Hixie> dekiss: if you mean http://whatwg.org/html, then i write the text, based on feedback here and on the mailing list, etc
# [01:39] <dekiss> thanks that was what I ment
# [01:39] <dekiss> Hixie one more quetion, will menu be disbanded?
# [01:40] <dekiss> and rarely used elements?
# [01:40] <Hixie> menu?
# [01:40] <ap> Hixie: unsure - the string "associat" is not found elsewhere in text (other than as "association list", which I think is different). So the effect of "association" is implicit and thus difficult for me to verify
# [01:41] <dekiss> yes "menu" element
# [01:41] <dekiss> hm I am not sure I tihink I saw in w3c.org spec that it was not used much and is considered to be disbanded
# [01:41] <dekiss> also hgroup
# [01:41] <Hixie> ap: it means "let them be entangled"
# [01:42] <Hixie> dekiss: <menu> and <hgroup> are new, i have no plans to remove them
# [01:42] <Hixie> <hgroup> in particular is used in over 100,000,000 pages already
# [01:42] * Quits: vcarbune (~vcarbune@84-74-140-149.dclient.hispeed.ch) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
# [01:42] <ap> Hixie: the spec defines "entangle" through "associate", so explaining "associate" through "entangle" doesn
# [01:42] <ap> t
# [01:42] <ap> help
# [01:43] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.71.136.getinternet.no) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [01:43] <Hixie> ap: elsewhere in the spec there are algorithms that refer to whether a port is entangled with another or not, and that refer to the entangled port.
# [01:43] <Hixie> ap: this algorithm is attempting to create that connection.
# [01:43] <ap> Hixie: or is "entagle" only called on ports that have not been shipped yet?
# [01:44] <zewt> grr stumbling over new Event() because of the bad option defaults
# [01:45] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
# [01:45] <ap> Hixie: so there is the clone algotithm:
# [01:45] <ap> If the original port is entangled with another port, then run these substeps:
# [01:45] <Hixie> ap: entangling of a port is something that happens upon its creation, and when its entangled port is cloned (when you clone a port A into a new port B, where A and C are entangled, A and C are disentangled and B and C are entangled)
# [01:45] <ap> Let the remote port be the port with which the original port is entangled.
# [01:46] <ap> Hixie: how can one detect if the original port is entangled? maybe another side has already initiated disentanglement, but it's still unknown to this side
# [01:47] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-47-240.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [01:47] <ap> Hixie: e.g. ports A and B are entangled, and are in separate processes already. Scripts call clone() on them at the same time
# [01:47] <Hixie> ap: you have to act as if it's instantaneous. Suppose you have A-B entangled, and you clone A to A' and B to B' at the "same time". You should end up with A'-B' entangled.
# [01:48] <ap> Hixie: I doubt that there are implementations that do that
# [01:48] <ap> Hixie: WebKit's certainly doesn't seems like it does
# [01:49] <Hixie> ap: does webkit support cloning ports at all yet?
# [01:50] * Joins: newtron (~newtron@69-165-138-36.dsl.teksavvy.com)
# [01:51] <ap> Hixie: is this what you do when passing a port via postMessage? yes, that works (hopefully correctly when workers are not involved, and kind of maybe when they are)
# [01:52] <Hixie> ap: well if it doesn't work i guess you have a bug :-)
# [01:52] * Joins: krit (~krit@p14100-ipngn4101marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
# [01:53] * Quits: linclark (~clark@c-67-186-35-246.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Quit: linclark)
# [01:53] <ap> Hixie: it is of course something we can think of ourselves eventually, but it would be helpful if someone could think about whether the spec is implementable without unacceptable performance problems
# [01:54] <ap> Hixie: such as pausing all processes to synchronize
# [01:55] <ap> Hixie: anyway, I think that you answered bug 21416 - in that it's supposed to behave as if there was a cross-process mutex around all MessagePort operations
# [01:55] <Hixie> ap: this doesn't require any synchronisation
# [01:55] <zewt> drawing a blank for some reason: any examples of APIs that dispatch events, other than really weirdo things (in particular other than element.click)
# [01:55] <zewt> er
# [01:56] <zewt> that dispatch events synchronously
# [01:56] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@p14100-ipngn4101marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
# [01:56] <ap> zewt: execCommand :-p
# [01:56] <Hixie> ap: just make sure you forward all your messages appropriately (and essentially leave a forwarding address)
# [01:56] <zewt> ap: i'll bundle that in with weirdo things :P
# [01:56] <Hixie> zewt: seach for "fire a " in the html spec
# [01:57] * Quits: decotii (~decotii@static-98-116-12-109.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Quit: Leaving)
# [01:57] <zewt> that'll have hundreds of hits, most of which are async
# [01:57] <Hixie> oh synchronously
# [01:57] <zewt> sorry, I mean JS entry points that fire events synchronously to script
# [01:57] <Hixie> my bad
# [01:57] <Hixie> dispatchEvent() is the main one
# [01:57] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@108-75-75-178.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [01:58] <ap> Hixie: no, I understand that leaving a forwarding address is the next step. It's just that then I need to rip apart most of the other algorithms in the spec that don't explicitly account for that (most importantly those that explain object lifetime)
# [01:58] <zewt> yeah (that's the one I was looking to compare to, actually)
# [01:59] <Hixie> ap: like what? i'm happy to make the spec clearer, i just don't understand what the problem is here
# [01:59] <zewt> (and I don't want to use click() as an example, there's so much horribly wrong with onclick it makes a bad comparison)
# [02:00] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.114.107.81) (Quit: weinig)
# [02:00] <ap> Hixie: I _think_ that for every sentence that has the word "entangled" in it, I will need to think about whether it's actually "entangled or a forwarder to entangled"
# [02:01] <ap> Hixie: and devise a protocol for dropping the forwarder privileges eventually
# [02:01] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-52-206.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [02:01] <Hixie> ap: sure, that's like for every object that mentioned HTMLElement objects, you have to think about whether it means the C++-side of the object or the C++-side plus its JS-engine wrapper, or whatever is going on in the rendering engine. Figuring out these things is kind of your job. :-)
# [02:01] <ap> Hixie: because when I have process A and process B, and a port gets shipped across the boundary and then back, we probably don't want to keep doing two cross-process messages any more
# [02:02] <Hixie> ap: sure
# [02:02] * Quits: jryans (~jryans@office.massrel.com) (Quit: Be back later)
# [02:02] <Hixie> ap: doing cross-process IPC with pipes whose endpoints can be moved around the world is definitely non-trivial
# [02:02] <Hixie> ap: i don't think anyone would argue otherwise :-)
# [02:02] * Quits: jarek (~jarek@unaffiliated/jarek) (Quit: jarek)
# [02:02] <Hixie> ap: our goal here is to try to make it as trivial as possible for Web authors, but that means eating a lot of pain
# [02:03] <ap> Hixie: perhaps the spec would be easier to follow if the lifetime algorithms were just removed from it
# [02:03] <ap> Hixie: as they will just be so different in practice
# [02:03] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.114.107.81)
# [02:03] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-52-206.dsl.telepac.pt)
# [02:04] <Hixie> well we need to define the detectable aspects of lifetime
# [02:04] <Hixie> that's all the spec is trying to define
# [02:04] <Hixie> obviously the actual implementations will likely be different
# [02:04] <ap> Hixie: what are the detectable aspects?
# [02:04] <Hixie> e.g. when does the worker stop running
# [02:04] <ap> Hixie: usually the goal that there are none :)
# [02:04] <dekiss> Hixie ok thanks for info man
# [02:05] <TabAtkins> annevk: Which thread is this? Have I already responded to it?
# [02:05] <dekiss> Hixie assistive technology devices can interpret javascript and dom?
# [02:05] <Hixie> dekiss: in practice, or in theory?
# [02:05] <ap> Hixie: is there a way to explain the shutdown procedure without the algorithms? Because they seem unlikely to help implementations converge in this case
# [02:05] <dekiss> um
# [02:05] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.114.107.81) (Client Quit)
# [02:06] <dekiss> both
# [02:06] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.71.136.getinternet.no)
# [02:06] <ap> Hixie: people will just have another barrier trying to understand what the algorithm means in spec's synchronous world, and then implement differently anyway
# [02:06] <Hixie> ap: i tried various ways to define it, but what's in the spec is the simplest, least confusing, most declarative manner i was able to come up with
# [02:07] <ap> Hixie: ok
# [02:07] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.114.107.81)
# [02:07] <Hixie> ap: i'm very open to alternative phrasings if you can come up with any though, they're pretty horrific
# [02:07] <Hixie> ap: definitely not a part of the spec i would point to when going up for promotion, shall we say
# [02:08] <Hixie> ap: see the diff i just posted to the bug (https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21416), in case that helps... not sure what else to add
# [02:09] <ap> Hixie: I'll see what I can do if I get a chance to work on channel messaging again. The last time, I had a hard time comparing the spec and the existing WebKit implementation to understand if it was doing something at least related to what's correct
# [02:09] * Quits: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@70.102.199.158) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [02:10] <ap> Hixie: I think that the change you made is helpful
# [02:10] * Joins: sgalineau (~sylvaing@c-98-247-242-151.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
# [02:11] <Hixie> ap: cool, thanks (on both fronts)
# [02:11] <ap> thank you!
# [02:11] <Hixie> ap: totally agreed that this isn't easy to think about. It's probably the second most complicated part of web platform i've worked on
# [02:11] <dekiss> Hixie?
# [02:11] <Hixie> most complicated being xbl2, if we can count that as part of the "web platform" :-|
# [02:12] <Hixie> dekiss: sorry, had to help ap first, he's an implementor, they're my peeps :-P to answe you, yes, ATs can be part of browsers.
# [02:12] * Joins: RobbertAtWork (~robbertat@212.238.236.229)
# [02:15] * Joins: krit1 (~krit@sjfw1.adobe.com)
# [02:15] * Quits: sgalineau (~sylvaing@c-98-247-242-151.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [02:15] <dekiss> ok thanks man
# [02:15] <dekiss> np
# [02:16] * Quits: lerc (~quassel@121-74-233-23.telstraclear.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [02:17] * Quits: RobbertAtWork (~robbertat@212.238.236.229) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
# [02:17] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@p14100-ipngn4101marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [02:18] * Quits: krit (~krit@p14100-ipngn4101marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [02:18] * Joins: mven (~mven@ip68-224-15-53.lv.lv.cox.net)
# [02:19] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@p14100-ipngn4101marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
# [02:22] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@24.212.206.174)
# [02:22] * Quits: tobie (~tobielang@73-118.195-178.cust.bluewin.ch) (Quit: tobie)
# [02:22] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
# [02:25] * Quits: jsbell (jsbell@nat/google/x-mqpqbkzczdlbpqag) (Quit: There's no place like home...)
# [02:26] <Hixie> ap: fwiw, safari seems to handle this test ok: http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/dom/workers/002.html
# [02:26] <Hixie> ap: what i do there is create two workers, then a message channel, and i pass one side of each message channel to each worker at the same time, then wait a second, then have them send their parts back, then i send a message from one side to the other
# [02:27] <Hixie> (Firefox doesn't seem to support MessageChannel, sadly)
# [02:30] <Hixie> bbl
# [02:30] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-52-206.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [02:31] * Joins: lerc (~quassel@121-74-233-23.telstraclear.net)
# [02:33] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
# [02:35] <ap> Hixie: I think that have an actual mutex for dedicated workers (unsure if we lock it in all the right places, or what we do with shared ones)
# [02:36] <ap> as shared ones were only out of process in chromium port
# [02:36] * Joins: [[zzz]] (~q@node-5m4.pool-125-25.dynamic.totbb.net)
# [02:39] * Quits: [[zz]] (~q@node-cih.pool-125-25.dynamic.totbb.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
# [02:40] <zewt> it seems like there's a gap between what the spec wants to happen and how to actually do it in practice--i wonder if a small sample implementation would help narrow that (on top of unix pipes or something)
# [02:41] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@v-1045.fw1.sfo1.mozilla.net) (Quit: tantek)
# [02:41] * Joins: SimonSapin (~simon@61.202.242.194)
# [02:45] * Joins: sgalineau (~sylvaing@sjfw1.adobe.com)
# [02:46] * Joins: ryanseddon (uid1832@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zlwsoishbvdqzdpv)
# [02:49] * Quits: sgalineau (~sylvaing@sjfw1.adobe.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [02:51] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@m860536d0.tmodns.net)
# [02:53] * Quits: ap (~ap@2620:149:4:1b01:202e:3369:92fe:a565) (Quit: ap)
# [03:01] <zewt> (for that matter, I don't know if it can be sanely implemented with simple pipes, or if it wants some form of shm)
# [03:05] <zewt> heh cute, apparently mousewheel scrolling in chrome closes the context menu
# [03:05] <zewt> handy way when I right-click by accident, want to close the menu, but ... can't find anywhere to click that won't have side-effects
# [03:06] <zewt> (and more natural than hitting esc)
# [03:09] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@m860536d0.tmodns.net) (Quit: Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi)
# [03:13] * Joins: linclark (~clark@c-67-186-35-246.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
# [03:13] * Quits: ajt__ (~ajt@li181-64.members.linode.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
# [03:29] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-52-206.dsl.telepac.pt)
# [03:32] * Quits: JohnAlbin (~JohnAlbin@114-24-48-243.dynamic.hinet.net) (Quit: HTTP/1.1 404 JohnAlbin Not Found)
# [03:33] * Quits: bholley (~bholley@nat/mozilla/x-qmfmixyffcfmgyrv) (Quit: bholley)
# [03:34] * Quits: lerc (~quassel@121-74-233-23.telstraclear.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [03:36] * Joins: lerc (~quassel@121-74-233-23.telstraclear.net)
# [03:37] * Quits: newtron (~newtron@69-165-138-36.dsl.teksavvy.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [03:44] * Joins: newtron (~newtron@69-165-138-36.dsl.teksavvy.com)
# [03:47] * Quits: openstandards (~openstand@87-127-196-56.static.enta.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [03:49] * ojan is now known as ojan_away
# [03:50] * Quits: SimonSapin (~simon@61.202.242.194) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [03:54] * Quits: alecf (alecf@nat/google/x-zxodswxifdxfdazw) (Quit: alecf)
# [03:56] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-52-206.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [03:59] * Quits: reyre_ (~reyre_@CPE7cb21b1e2cf4-CM7cb21b1e2cf1.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [04:05] * Quits: krit1 (~krit@sjfw1.adobe.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [04:08] * Joins: AFuryDevine (~AFuryDevi@S0106204e7f7cd41a.ok.shawcable.net)
# [04:09] * Quits: AFuryDevine (~AFuryDevi@S0106204e7f7cd41a.ok.shawcable.net) (Client Quit)
# [04:10] * Joins: AFuryDevine (~AFuryDevi@S0106204e7f7cd41a.ok.shawcable.net)
# [04:10] * Joins: AFuryDevine_ (~AFuryDevi@S0106204e7f7cd41a.ok.shawcable.net)
# [04:10] * Quits: AFuryDevine_ (~AFuryDevi@S0106204e7f7cd41a.ok.shawcable.net) (Client Quit)
# [04:11] * Quits: linclark (~clark@c-67-186-35-246.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Quit: linclark)
# [04:12] * Joins: vitorpacheco (~vitor@201-51-189-40.user.veloxzone.com.br)
# [04:13] * Joins: reyre_ (~reyre_@CPE7cb21b1e2cf4-CM7cb21b1e2cf1.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
# [04:16] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-52-206.dsl.telepac.pt)
# [04:23] * Quits: reyre_ (~reyre_@CPE7cb21b1e2cf4-CM7cb21b1e2cf1.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [04:24] * Joins: SimonSapin (~simon@61-121-216-2.bitcat.net)
# [04:34] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.114.107.81) (Quit: weinig)
# [04:36] * Joins: Andre____ (~andrew@pool-71-251-5-83.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
# [04:37] * Quits: Andre____ (~andrew@pool-71-251-5-83.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [04:38] * Quits: newtron (~newtron@69-165-138-36.dsl.teksavvy.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [04:39] * Joins: newtron (~newtron@69-165-138-36.dsl.teksavvy.com)
# [04:42] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-52-206.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [04:44] * Quits: newtron (~newtron@69-165-138-36.dsl.teksavvy.com) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [04:45] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@v-1045.fw1.sfo1.mozilla.net) (Quit: sicking)
# [04:48] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-52-206.dsl.telepac.pt)
# [04:51] * Joins: sgalineau (~sylvaing@c-98-247-242-151.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
# [04:58] * Quits: sgalineau (~sylvaing@c-98-247-242-151.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [05:08] * Quits: AFuryDevine (~AFuryDevi@S0106204e7f7cd41a.ok.shawcable.net) (Quit: Leaving)
# [05:08] * Joins: AFuryDevine (~AFuryDevi@S0106204e7f7cd41a.ok.shawcable.net)
# [05:09] * Joins: skcin7 (~skcin7@c-68-38-156-213.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
# [05:10] * Quits: AFuryDevine (~AFuryDevi@S0106204e7f7cd41a.ok.shawcable.net) (Client Quit)
# [05:14] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-52-206.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [05:17] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@60.32.72.88) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
# [05:19] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@cpe-142-11-82-156.socal.rr.com)
# [05:19] <JonathanNeal> Why does the meta tag not allow virtually any name/content pairing?
# [05:19] <JonathanNeal> Ideally, should Twiter and Facebook be dropping the cards and the open graphs? Realistically, should the spec reflect the true state of <meta>?
# [05:22] * Quits: lerc (~quassel@121-74-233-23.telstraclear.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [05:26] <JonathanNeal> I'm just reacting to validator errors versus warnings.
# [05:27] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
# [05:28] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@p14100-ipngn4101marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [05:33] * Joins: reyre_ (~reyre_@CPE7cb21b1e2cf4-CM7cb21b1e2cf1.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
# [05:36] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-52-206.dsl.telepac.pt)
# [05:38] * Quits: reyre_ (~reyre_@CPE7cb21b1e2cf4-CM7cb21b1e2cf1.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
# [05:39] * Joins: newtron (~newtron@69-165-138-36.dsl.teksavvy.com)
# [05:42] * Joins: teamcoltra (~frextual@opennic/teamcoltra)
# [05:44] * Quits: newtron (~newtron@69-165-138-36.dsl.teksavvy.com) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [05:45] * Joins: bholley (~bholley@c-67-180-21-133.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [05:48] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@cpe-70-112-101-224.austin.res.rr.com)
# [05:52] * Quits: dekiss (~dekiss@77.29.143.34)
# [05:58] * Joins: lerc (~quassel@121-74-233-23.telstraclear.net)
# [06:02] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-52-206.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [06:05] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: about arbitrary names not being allowed for meta, it's because the spec says so
# [06:05] <MikeSmith> currently
# [06:05] <MikeSmith> I personally have come around to thinking it's a lost cause
# [06:06] <MikeSmith> that is, it's a lost cause to disallow arbitrary name values
# [06:06] <MikeSmith> but Hixie believes differently, I think
# [06:06] <MikeSmith> I guess I should file a bug
# [06:07] <MikeSmith> btw, you can put anything you want into the value of the content attribute, thoug
# [06:07] <MikeSmith> there are no restrictions on that
# [06:10] * Quits: teamcoltra (~frextual@opennic/teamcoltra) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [06:24] * Joins: jernoble_ (~jernoble@199-188-193-107.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net)
# [06:24] <jernoble_> ok
# [06:24] <Hixie> no, i agree that the current state is not viable
# [06:25] <Hixie> the wiki experiment has been a great success
# [06:25] <Hixie> it's shown that a lot of people really are wasting their time, and a lot of other people (far more than i expected) are doing things with meta and link rel and so on that are specific to their deployments
# [06:26] <Hixie> there's a bunch of bugs about how to deal with this
# [06:28] * Quits: bholley (~bholley@c-67-180-21-133.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: bholley)
# [06:29] <MikeSmith> well, I just added one more
# [06:29] <MikeSmith> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22257
# [06:30] <MikeSmith> Hixie: you meant to say that the the wiki experiment has *not* been a great success?
# [06:30] <Hixie> no, it's been a success
# [06:30] <MikeSmith> oh
# [06:30] <Hixie> it has taught us much
# [06:30] <Hixie> at least, it's taught me much :-)
# [06:30] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [06:30] <MikeSmith> I agree about that too
# [06:31] <MikeSmith> anyway I hope hsivonen can weigh in with his opinion on it
# [06:31] <MikeSmith> I'll send a message to the list
# [06:31] <Hixie> i'm not looking at this until sometime next year at the earliest, fwiw
# [06:31] <Hixie> trying to get all the bugs that relate to interop dealt with first
# [06:32] <Hixie> browser interop
# [06:32] <MikeSmith> ok
# [06:33] * Quits: SimonSapin (~simon@61-121-216-2.bitcat.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [06:34] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-52-206.dsl.telepac.pt)
# [06:35] * Quits: jernoble (~jernoble@17.212.152.13) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
# [06:36] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@p14100-ipngn4101marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
# [06:40] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@p14100-ipngn4101marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
# [06:40] * Joins: newtron (~newtron@69-165-138-36.dsl.teksavvy.com)
# [06:41] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
# [06:42] * Joins: sgalineau (~sylvaing@c-98-247-242-151.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
# [06:45] * Quits: newtron (~newtron@69-165-138-36.dsl.teksavvy.com) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [06:46] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
# [06:46] * Quits: sgalineau (~sylvaing@c-98-247-242-151.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
# [06:55] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@24.212.206.174) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [06:56] * Quits: carlos_antonio (~benway@unaffiliated/disusered) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [06:57] * Quits: shepazu (~shepazu@108-70-132-46.lightspeed.rlghnc.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
# [06:59] * Joins: shepazu (~shepazu@108-70-132-46.lightspeed.rlghnc.sbcglobal.net)
# [07:00] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-52-206.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [07:01] * Quits: vitorpacheco (~vitor@201-51-189-40.user.veloxzone.com.br) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [07:04] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-52-206.dsl.telepac.pt)
# [07:05] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@17.212.154.114) (Quit: rniwa)
# [07:14] * Joins: sgalineau (~sylvaing@c-98-247-242-151.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
# [07:20] * Quits: sgalineau (~sylvaing@c-98-247-242-151.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
# [07:23] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@cpe-70-112-101-224.austin.res.rr.com) (Quit: Leaving...)
# [07:24] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@c-67-180-8-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [07:29] * Quits: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [07:29] * Joins: SimonSapin (~simon@61-121-216-2.bitcat.net)
# [07:29] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
# [07:32] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-52-206.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [07:34] * Quits: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
# [07:37] <JonathanNeal> excellent, twitter cards will soon be valid, thanks to Hixie and MikeSmith and the rest of the gang.
# [07:41] * Joins: newtron (~newtron@69-165-138-36.dsl.teksavvy.com)
# [07:43] <Hixie> are they invalid now?
# [07:44] * Joins: SteveF (~chatzilla@cpc3-nmal20-2-0-cust916.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
# [07:44] <MikeSmith> Hixie: https://dev.twitter.com/docs/cards
# [07:45] <MikeSmith> https://dev.twitter.com/docs/cards/markup-reference
# [07:45] <JonathanNeal> Bad value twitter:card for attribute name on element meta: Keyword twitter:card is not registered.
# [07:45] <Hixie> why doesn't someone just register them? they, unlike almost every other meta tag, actually have a spec!
# [07:46] <MikeSmith> hmm I see that some of them are now registered, actually
# [07:46] <MikeSmith> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/MetaExtensions
# [07:46] * Quits: newtron (~newtron@69-165-138-36.dsl.teksavvy.com) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [07:46] <JonathanNeal> They are http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/MetaExtensions
# [07:46] <Hixie> ah. then they're valid already
# [07:46] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
# [07:46] * MikeSmith goes to add those to the validator source
# [07:46] <Hixie> heh
# [07:47] <Hixie> that's definitely one part of this that doesn't scale well
# [07:47] <JonathanNeal> Ooo, better sneak benschwarz' in there now.
# [07:48] <JonathanNeal> or not, but that's what made me start thinking about this https://github.com/benschwarz/metaquery
# [07:48] <JonathanNeal> You really ought to just make the <meta> element's name attribute open.
# [07:49] <Hixie> the problem is that that would lead to a lot of authors wasting a lot of time
# [07:49] <Hixie> because a lot of authors spend ages including things that are totally pointless
# [07:49] <JonathanNeal> to whom?
# [07:49] <Hixie> pointless to anyone
# [07:50] <Hixie> as in, <meta> tags that are never used by any software at all
# [07:50] <MikeSmith> Hixie: they waste time now running stuff throught the validator now and getting errors they don't care about
# [07:50] <JonathanNeal> That's a relative statement. For instance, HTML5 Boilerplate rejected adding twitter cards because "most sites or apps will never use this and too many people will accidentally leave it in there."
# [07:51] <MikeSmith> and then complaining through bug reports and mailing-list messages and e-mail to me
# [07:51] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i disagree with the premise that it's a waste of their time to be told that something they're doing is pointless.
# [07:51] <Hixie> but i agree that the current system isn't working
# [07:52] <JonathanNeal> "Keyword X is not registered." hardly communicates what you are saying.
# [07:52] <MikeSmith> Hixie: It's not an absolute waste of time, it's a relative/net waste of time
# [07:52] <Hixie> yeah, the current system isn't working, like i said
# [07:53] <MikeSmith> it's like the validator complaining aobut table@border is a net waste of time, I think
# [07:53] <Hixie> MikeSmith: if an author spends 10 minutes per project on a <meta> that gives nobody value, and one day they validate and the validator says "this is a waste of your time, stop doing it", then they can save 10 minutes per future project.
# [07:53] <MikeSmith> Hixie: the thing is, they don't change their markup
# [07:53] <JonathanNeal> Then you pick which meta tags are a waste of time, or are they all?
# [07:53] <Hixie> MikeSmith: then we're not communicating it well, like JonathanNeal said
# [07:53] <JonathanNeal> Also, is that really an error, or maybe just a warning?
# [07:54] <JonathanNeal> twitter cards might not be so arbitrary from the point of view of, say, twitter.
# [07:54] <MikeSmith> Hixie: they keep the meta@name values, and they keep table@border. The main thing they learn is to ignore the validator for those cases
# [07:54] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: well, right now we're in a kind of learning state where we are finding out what the proportion of useful values to not-useful values is
# [07:54] <Hixie> MikeSmith: then we're not communicating to them why those are errors well enough.
# [07:55] <Hixie> MikeSmith: especially for <meta>, that's unsurprising, given that it's not well defined in the first place :-)
# [07:55] <MikeSmith> true
# [07:59] * Quits: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [07:59] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
# [08:00] * Parts: JibberJim (~opera@host-78-146-51-49.as13285.net)
# [08:00] * Joins: JibberJim (~opera@host-78-146-51-49.as13285.net)
# [08:01] <JonathanNeal> IMHO, as long as HTML is the language of the browsers, the <meta> tag will continue down a liberal path, as developers continually extend it to communicate data about the document.
# [08:01] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-52-206.dsl.telepac.pt)
# [08:02] <Hixie> sure, but in reality it's not that simple.
# [08:02] <Hixie> metadata that nobody reads ends up bitrotting
# [08:02] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: please try your twitter cards with http://validator.w3.org/nu/ or http://validator.w3.org/ now
# [08:02] <Hixie> metadata that isn't in a specified format starts useless (with everyone using different syntaxes, etc)
# [08:02] <JonathanNeal> And the variations can be quite popular, as they have been for apple, facebook, and now twitter.
# [08:02] <JonathanNeal> I will, thanks.
# [08:03] <JonathanNeal> whoops, was using validator.nu, will try w3's
# [08:03] <JonathanNeal> VALID
# [08:03] <MikeSmith> yeah I'll ping hsivonen about pulling the changes to validator.nu too
# [08:04] * Quits: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
# [08:04] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: only twitter ones I added are the ones that are actually registered
# [08:04] <JonathanNeal> The error is still "Bad value X for attribute name on element meta: Keyword X is not registered." I tried throwing something random in there.
# [08:04] <Hixie> bbl, sleep
# [08:04] <MikeSmith> not the other 50,000 other ones in their developer docs
# [08:04] <MikeSmith> Hixie: nn
# [08:05] <JonathanNeal> Yea, cause now you are maintaining a <meta name="twitter:X"> spec.
# [08:09] <benschwarz> No sneak required
# [08:09] <JonathanNeal> :)
# [08:10] <JonathanNeal> I think this is a step forward, and hopefully opens folks up to the idea of letting meta name be free.
# [08:15] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
# [08:16] * Quits: kborchers (~kborchers@unaffiliated/kborchers) (Excess Flood)
# [08:19] * Joins: kborchers (~kborchers@unaffiliated/kborchers)
# [08:21] * Quits: Bass10 (~Bass10@c-76-113-194-7.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [08:21] * Joins: tdsmith (~tim@vp117160.reshsg.uci.edu)
# [08:23] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@170.238-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be)
# [08:24] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com)
# [08:27] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@c-67-180-8-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: sicking)
# [08:28] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@c-67-180-8-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [08:28] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-52-206.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [08:28] * Joins: nessy (~silviapf@124-168-10-95.dyn.iinet.net.au)
# [08:33] * Quits: nessy (~silviapf@124-168-10-95.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [08:34] * Joins: nessy (~silviapf@124-168-10-95.dyn.iinet.net.au)
# [08:35] * Joins: zdobersek (~zdobersek@cpe-77.38.31.63.cable.t-1.si)
# [08:35] * Joins: Robbert_ (~robbert@212.238.236.229)
# [08:35] * Quits: Robbert_ (~robbert@212.238.236.229) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [08:37] <hsivonen> http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/201306/msg00002.html trying to make sense of the black text on black background
# [08:40] * Joins: Martin1982 (~Martin198@cable-175-208.zeelandnet.nl)
# [08:40] * Quits: tdsmith (~tim@vp117160.reshsg.uci.edu) (Quit: you do it to yourself)
# [08:41] * Joins: newtron (~newtron@69-165-138-36.dsl.teksavvy.com)
# [08:42] <Ms2ger> hsivonen, I read "I am as high as a kite"
# [08:42] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@cpe-142-11-82-156.socal.rr.com) (Quit: JonathanNeal)
# [08:43] <hsivonen> "You are using an unregistered meta keyword. Go read Cory Doctorow's metacrap essay."
# [08:43] * Joins: plutoniix (~plutoniix@ppp-58-11-87-52.revip2.asianet.co.th)
# [08:44] <hsivonen> so much opportunity for 386 on xml-dev
# [08:46] * Quits: newtron (~newtron@69-165-138-36.dsl.teksavvy.com) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [08:51] * Quits: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [09:03] * Quits: plutoniix (~plutoniix@ppp-58-11-87-52.revip2.asianet.co.th) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [09:03] * Joins: plutoniix (~plutoniix@ppp-58-11-92-52.revip2.asianet.co.th)
# [09:11] * Joins: mitemitreski (~mitemitre@212.120.17.179)
# [09:12] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no)
# [09:14] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [09:15] * Joins: charl_ (~charl@2001:67c:2564:524:92b1:1cff:fe89:ae5)
# [09:15] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
# [09:16] * Joins: Kolombiken (~Adium@gateway.creuna.se)
# [09:23] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@219.236.246.147)
# [09:23] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@219.236.246.147) (Client Quit)
# [09:27] * Joins: RobbertAtWork (~robbertat@212.238.236.229)
# [09:29] * Joins: Masklinn (~textual@109.89.68.161)
# [09:31] * Joins: richt (~richt@112.169.110.241)
# [09:31] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
# [09:32] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141)
# [09:32] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@219.236.246.147)
# [09:33] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@219.236.246.147) (Client Quit)
# [09:33] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@219.236.246.147)
# [09:33] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@219.236.246.147) (Client Quit)
# [09:36] * Joins: hallvors (~hallvord@node-c7ijkt2iwkhn4f.20.ipv6.opera.com)
# [09:36] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@221x249x212x15.ap221.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
# [09:36] * Quits: ^esc_ (~esc_ape@77.117.246.215.wireless.dyn.drei.com) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
# [09:37] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@2.25.62.115)
# [09:39] * Quits: JibberJim (~opera@host-78-146-51-49.as13285.net) (Quit: JibberJim)
# [09:40] * Joins: tobie (~tobielang@73-118.195-178.cust.bluewin.ch)
# [09:41] * Joins: codeho (~codeho@p57A87E8D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
# [09:42] * Joins: newtron (~newtron@69-165-138-36.dsl.teksavvy.com)
# [09:47] * Quits: newtron (~newtron@69-165-138-36.dsl.teksavvy.com) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [09:56] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@c-67-180-8-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: sicking)
# [10:04] * Quits: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [10:05] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [10:05] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
# [10:05] * Quits: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [10:05] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
# [10:08] * Quits: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [10:12] * Quits: nonge_ (~nonge@p508299C5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Read error: Operation timed out)
# [10:18] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-47-240.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
# [10:19] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-52-206.dsl.telepac.pt)
# [10:25] * Joins: hasather_ (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no)
# [10:26] * Joins: benbarnett (~Adium@195.81.245.98)
# [10:26] * Joins: nonge (~nonge@p50828367.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
# [10:29] * Quits: hasather_ (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
# [10:39] * Joins: darobin (~darobin@78.109.80.74)
# [10:42] * Joins: newtron (~newtron@69-165-138-36.dsl.teksavvy.com)
# [10:43] * Quits: plutoniix (~plutoniix@ppp-58-11-92-52.revip2.asianet.co.th) (Quit: จรลี จรลา)
# [10:44] * Joins: sgalineau (~sylvaing@c-98-247-242-151.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
# [10:46] * Joins: mikronaz (~mironaz@88-119-145-207.static.zebra.lt)
# [10:46] * Quits: mitemitreski (~mitemitre@212.120.17.179) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [10:46] * Joins: mitemitreski (~mitemitre@212.120.17.179)
# [10:47] * Quits: newtron (~newtron@69-165-138-36.dsl.teksavvy.com) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [10:48] * Quits: sgalineau (~sylvaing@c-98-247-242-151.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [10:52] * Quits: lmclister (~lmclister@221x249x212x15.ap221.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: lmclister)
# [10:53] * Joins: Smylers (~smylers@81.143.60.194)
# [10:56] * Joins: yoichio (yoichio@nat/google/x-iemawhtozrbibpdm)
# [11:01] * Quits: yoichio (yoichio@nat/google/x-iemawhtozrbibpdm) (Client Quit)
# [11:01] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@2.25.62.115) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [11:03] * Quits: richt (~richt@112.169.110.241) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [11:03] * Joins: richt (~richt@112.169.110.241)
# [11:06] * Joins: AladinBouzerd (~aladinbou@41.104.70.114)
# [11:08] * Quits: richt (~richt@112.169.110.241) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
# [11:15] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@p14100-ipngn4101marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [11:19] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@2.25.62.115)
# [11:21] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
# [11:22] * Quits: AladinBouzerd (~aladinbou@41.104.70.114) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
# [11:25] * Joins: ambv (~ambv@213.17.226.11)
# [11:28] * Joins: AladinBouzerd (~aladinbou@41.104.54.16)
# [11:32] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@p14100-ipngn4101marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
# [11:33] * Quits: SimonSapin (~simon@61-121-216-2.bitcat.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [11:34] * Quits: birtles (~chatzilla@61-121-216-2.bitcat.net) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204])
# [11:34] * Quits: espadrine (~ttyl@85-218-11-50.dclient.lsne.ch) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
# [11:39] * Joins: xjiujiu (~quassel@218.77.14.202)
# [11:42] * Joins: josemanuel (~josemanue@13.200.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es)
# [11:43] * Joins: baku (~baku@2-236-39-253.ip231.fastwebnet.it)
# [11:43] * Joins: newtron (~newtron@69-165-138-36.dsl.teksavvy.com)
# [11:48] * Quits: newtron (~newtron@69-165-138-36.dsl.teksavvy.com) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [11:49] * Quits: xjiujiu (~quassel@218.77.14.202) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [11:50] * Joins: xjiujiu (~quassel@218.77.14.202)
# [11:56] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@2.25.62.115) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [11:58] * abarth is now known as abarth|zZz
# [12:02] * Ms2ger wonders who writes like TimBL speaks
# [12:05] * Joins: shwetank (~shwetank@64.237.37.123)
# [12:06] * jgraham wonders the context for Ms2ger's wondering
# [12:08] <jgraham> Kerouac?
# [12:09] <jgraham> Not sure that's really a good fit…
# [12:11] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@207.218.72.65)
# [12:12] <darobin> TimBL writes like TimBL speaks
# [12:13] <darobin> otherwise, I'm tempted to suggest Robert Shea + Robert Anton Wilson
# [12:20] <Ms2ger> https://twitter.com/glazou/status/341819288182726657
# [12:33] * Joins: yorick (~yorick@oftn/member/yorick)
# [12:35] * Quits: AladinBouzerd (~aladinbou@41.104.54.16) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
# [12:44] * Joins: newtron (~newtron@69-165-138-36.dsl.teksavvy.com)
# [12:47] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@170.238-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) (Quit: bbl)
# [12:49] * Quits: newtron (~newtron@69-165-138-36.dsl.teksavvy.com) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [12:57] * Quits: yorick (~yorick@oftn/member/yorick) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [13:00] * Joins: JibberJim (~opera@212.58.232.179)
# [13:01] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@24.212.206.174)
# [13:04] * Quits: JibberJim (~opera@212.58.232.179) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [13:05] * Joins: richt (~richt@222.233.254.208)
# [13:06] * Joins: dekiss (~dekiss@77.28.27.97)
# [13:08] * Joins: yorick (~yorick@oftn/member/yorick)
# [13:11] * Quits: niloy_ (~niloy@115.112.64.6) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [13:13] * Joins: niloy (~niloy@115.112.64.6)
# [13:17] <dekiss> what is the best way to make something like Facebook posts?
# [13:19] * Joins: JibberJim (~opera@212.58.232.179)
# [13:20] <dekiss> content editable?
# [13:23] * Quits: JibberJim (~opera@212.58.232.179) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
# [13:24] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@221x249x212x15.ap221.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
# [13:25] <dekiss> I want to make sokmething like Facebook posts, how can I make this what is the best way? Using content editable or using textarea or?
# [13:26] <jgraham> marcosc: No plan because testharness.js has been on github for a long time already
# [13:27] <marcosc> jgraham, ah, should have known :)
# [13:37] <zcorpan> anolis doesn't support referencing a section, or does it?
# [13:38] * Quits: barneybook|2 (~kvirc@220-136-42-76.dynamic.hinet.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [13:38] <zcorpan> dekiss: try asking in #html5 or something instead
# [13:39] <dekiss> ok
# [13:40] * Joins: barneybook (~kvirc@220-136-42-76.dynamic.hinet.net)
# [13:41] * Joins: espadrine (~ttyl@tsf-444-wpa-0-044.epfl.ch)
# [13:44] * Joins: bolg (~bolg@me.glob.com.au)
# [13:44] * Joins: newtron (~newtron@69-165-138-36.dsl.teksavvy.com)
# [13:45] * Quits: lmclister (~lmclister@221x249x212x15.ap221.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: lmclister)
# [13:47] * Joins: JibberJim (~opera@212.58.232.179)
# [13:49] * Quits: newtron (~newtron@69-165-138-36.dsl.teksavvy.com) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [13:50] * Quits: baku (~baku@2-236-39-253.ip231.fastwebnet.it) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
# [13:51] * Quits: kborchers (~kborchers@unaffiliated/kborchers) (Excess Flood)
# [13:52] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@24.212.206.174) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [13:52] * Joins: kborchers (~kborchers@unaffiliated/kborchers)
# [13:56] <jgraham> tobie: So am I allowed to merge things in ttwf-docs, or is that only for special people?
# [13:56] * Quits: JibberJim (~opera@212.58.232.179) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
# [13:56] <jgraham> (also I wonder why the documentation is branded as "ttwf")
# [13:57] <jgraham> (not only because the TTWF people settled on TestTWF which doesn't have such a bad reputation on urban dictionary)
# [13:58] <tobie> Darn. forgot about that.
# [13:58] <jgraham> (not that I really mind, but at least at present TestTWF is a branch of the testing effort rather than the whole thing.)
# [13:59] <tobie> jgraham: plan is to use TestTWF for the overall web platform testing effort
# [14:00] <tobie> and have the event organization be a part of that.
# [14:00] <jgraham> I see
# [14:00] <tobie> but yeah need to fix the urban dic ref.
# [14:00] <tobie> :(
# [14:01] <tobie> jgraham: I think everyone relates to the dinos really well
# [14:01] * Joins: emailshwetank (~shwetank@122.161.109.86)
# [14:03] <jgraham> The dinos are cool
# [14:03] <tobie> and you can go ahead and merge stuff there.
# [14:03] * Quits: shwetank (~shwetank@64.237.37.123) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
# [14:03] <tobie> I added you to the project with that in mind. :)
# [14:04] * Quits: niloy (~niloy@115.112.64.6) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [14:04] * Joins: niloy (~niloy@115.112.111.246)
# [14:05] <darobin> dinos++
# [14:09] * Joins: JibberJim (~opera@212.58.232.179)
# [14:12] * [[zzz]] is now known as [[zz]]
# [14:13] * Quits: JibberJim (~opera@212.58.232.179) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [14:19] * Joins: baku (~baku@2-236-39-253.ip231.fastwebnet.it)
# [14:22] * Joins: krawchyk (~krawchyk@65.220.49.251)
# [14:29] * Quits: niloy (~niloy@115.112.111.246) (Quit: Leaving)
# [14:41] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@60.32.72.88)
# [14:45] * Joins: newtron (~newtron@69-165-138-36.dsl.teksavvy.com)
# [14:50] * Quits: newtron (~newtron@69-165-138-36.dsl.teksavvy.com) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [14:54] * Quits: nessy (~silviapf@124-168-10-95.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [14:55] * Joins: JohnAlbin (~JohnAlbin@114-42-60-5.dynamic.hinet.net)
# [14:55] * Quits: JohnAlbin (~JohnAlbin@114-42-60-5.dynamic.hinet.net) (Client Quit)
# [14:56] * Joins: Bass10 (~Bass10@c-76-113-194-7.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
# [14:56] * Joins: JohnAlbin (~JohnAlbin@114-42-60-5.dynamic.hinet.net)
# [14:56] * Joins: nessy (~silviapf@124-168-10-95.dyn.iinet.net.au)
# [15:00] * Quits: bolg (~bolg@me.glob.com.au) (Quit: Leaving...)
# [15:00] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@cpe-70-112-101-224.austin.res.rr.com)
# [15:07] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98)
# [15:07] * Joins: decotii (~decotii@static-98-116-12-109.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
# [15:14] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [15:14] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98)
# [15:15] * Quits: emailshwetank (~shwetank@122.161.109.86) (Quit: Leaving...)
# [15:17] * Quits: nessy (~silviapf@124-168-10-95.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [15:20] <hallvors> annevk: shouldn't stuff like "enum XMLHttpRequestResponseType" be marked with [NoInterfaceObject] in the IDL?
# [15:21] <annevk> no
# [15:21] <hallvors> http://xhr.spec.whatwg.org/#interface-xmlhttprequest
# [15:22] <hallvors> Why not? I see no point in having window.XMLHttpRequestOptions and window.XMLHttpRequestResponseType around
# [15:23] * Joins: TallTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
# [15:24] <annevk> hallvors: it appears you're either not reading WebIDL, or WebIDL says something silly
# [15:24] <hallvors> Oh, maybe I'm making assumptions here..
# [15:26] <hallvors> ah, only relevant for "interface"
# [15:26] <hallvors> ofc ;)
# [15:28] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-52-206.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [15:28] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
# [15:29] * Joins: newtron (~newtron@199.71.174.103)
# [15:32] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-52-206.dsl.telepac.pt)
# [15:34] * Joins: barneybook|2 (~kvirc@220-136-42-76.dynamic.hinet.net)
# [15:36] <annevk> hallvors: your pull requests are super unclear btw
# [15:36] <annevk> hallvors: you should really rebase or some such first
# [15:36] <hallvors> sorry
# [15:36] <hallvors> I know. I've just forgotten to do so
# [15:36] <hallvors> :-/
# [15:37] <hallvors> but I've appointed jgraham as my Git guru, so the future is bright
# [15:38] * Quits: barneybook (~kvirc@220-136-42-76.dynamic.hinet.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [15:40] * Quits: Martin1982 (~Martin198@cable-175-208.zeelandnet.nl) (Quit: Gone snoring)
# [15:43] <zcorpan> heycam|away: how should i spec style['font-size']? attribute CSSStyleDeclaration font-size; isn't valid webidl
# [15:45] <zcorpan> DOMString*
# [15:45] <darobin> I don't think that's possible
# [15:46] <zcorpan> not in the syntax, no
# [15:46] <zcorpan> but i can require a dancing unicorn in prose if i like
# [15:47] <zewt> amusing when people try to puff themselves up by saying "open letter" when they mean "blog post"
# [15:47] <zcorpan> "open blog post"?
# [15:47] <darobin> zcorpan: that just makes me sad that you haven't sent me a dancing unicorn
# [15:47] <zcorpan> i keep my blog posts to myself
# [15:47] <hallvors> annevk - PR 9 should be a somewhat improved version of PR8
# [15:47] <zewt> do you open each post with "dear diary"
# [15:49] <zcorpan> darobin: it hasn't arrived yet? maybe it died trying to swim across the sea :-(
# [15:49] * Joins: Martin1982 (~Martin198@cable-175-208.zeelandnet.nl)
# [15:49] <annevk> zcorpan: why is it not fontSize?
# [15:49] <annevk> zcorpan: sadness prevailed?
# [15:49] <zcorpan> annevk: because /topic
# [15:50] * Joins: SimonSapin (~simon@61.202.242.194)
# [15:50] <annevk> I thought CSS had that bit right
# [15:50] * zcorpan needs to go
# [15:51] <zcorpan> annevk: apparently trident/webkit/blink support both fontSize and font-size
# [15:51] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [15:51] * Quits: xjiujiu (~quassel@218.77.14.202) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [15:51] <annevk> that does sound like sadness has prevailed
# [15:52] <annevk> hallvors: so don't you think we should do that in Fetch
# [15:52] <annevk> hallvors: e.g. <img src=...> should not do the fragment thing either
# [15:53] <annevk> hallvors: I think even old Fetch (which XHR references) requires this
# [15:55] * Quits: espadrine (~ttyl@tsf-444-wpa-0-044.epfl.ch) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [15:56] <hallvors> I certainly think we should do it in Fetch ;)
# [15:56] <hallvors> so you can add it there if you want
# [15:57] <hallvors> - just that my main concern still is shipping the XHR spec in a usable state
# [15:57] * Joins: sgalineau (~sylvaing@c-98-247-242-151.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
# [15:57] <annevk> right, you realize shipping XHR also references fetch?
# [15:57] * Joins: reyre_ (~reyre_@142.204.133.18)
# [15:58] <hallvors> I'm not sure if we'll be "allowed" to - what are those pub rules again? Isn't Fetch too immature?
# [15:59] <hallvors> anyway, it's up to you. By all means add it in Fetch if you would rather do that
# [15:59] <annevk> there's Fetch and HTML fetch
# [15:59] * Joins: yodasw16 (~yodasw16@ql1fwhide.rockfin.com)
# [15:59] <annevk> the lowercase was intentional
# [15:59] <annevk> XHR has referenced the latter for an eternity
# [16:00] <annevk> you can't remove that
# [16:00] <annevk> you should really know this if you're editing XHR...
# [16:01] * Joins: espadrine (~ttyl@tsf-444-wpa-0-044.epfl.ch)
# [16:03] * Joins: marcosc_ (~marcosc@bl7-52-206.dsl.telepac.pt)
# [16:03] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-52-206.dsl.telepac.pt) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [16:04] <hallvors> Right - it's already covered by HTML5 fetch text. Good.
# [16:04] * Quits: heycam|away (~cam@wok.mcc.id.au) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [16:06] * Joins: marcosc__ (~marcosc@bl7-52-206.dsl.telepac.pt)
# [16:06] * Quits: marcosc__ (~marcosc@bl7-52-206.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [16:06] * Quits: marcosc_ (~marcosc@bl7-52-206.dsl.telepac.pt) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [16:07] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-52-206.dsl.telepac.pt)
# [16:08] * Joins: marcosc_ (~marcosc@bl7-52-206.dsl.telepac.pt)
# [16:08] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-52-206.dsl.telepac.pt) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [16:09] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
# [16:10] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-52-206.dsl.telepac.pt)
# [16:11] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-52-206.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [16:11] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-52-206.dsl.telepac.pt)
# [16:13] * Quits: marcosc_ (~marcosc@bl7-52-206.dsl.telepac.pt) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [16:16] * Quits: mven (~mven@ip68-224-15-53.lv.lv.cox.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [16:18] * Joins: jreading (~Adium@ip98-169-193-48.dc.dc.cox.net)
# [16:18] * Joins: shwetank (~shwetank@122.161.109.86)
# [16:18] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@cpe-142-11-82-156.socal.rr.com)
# [16:21] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com)
# [16:25] * Quits: hallvors (~hallvord@node-c7ijkt2iwkhn4f.20.ipv6.opera.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [16:26] * Quits: ambv (~ambv@213.17.226.11) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
# [16:35] * Joins: newtron_ (~newtron@199.71.174.102)
# [16:35] * Quits: newtron_ (~newtron@199.71.174.102) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [16:35] * Joins: newtron_ (~newtron@199.71.174.103)
# [16:36] * Joins: jryans (~jryans@office.massrel.com)
# [16:38] * Quits: newtron (~newtron@199.71.174.103) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [16:40] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@cpe-70-112-101-224.austin.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [16:42] * Joins: rubatdub (~khalil@213.188.180.185)
# [16:48] * Quits: rubatdub (~khalil@213.188.180.185) (Quit: Quitte)
# [16:48] * Joins: rubatdub (~khalil@213.188.180.185)
# [16:49] * Quits: rubatdub (~khalil@213.188.180.185) (Client Quit)
# [16:49] * Joins: rubatdub (~khalil@213.188.180.185)
# [16:51] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-47-240.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Read error: Operation timed out)
# [16:51] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-47-240.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
# [16:52] * Joins: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-118-109-238-83.kng.mesh.ad.jp)
# [16:54] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
# [16:55] <JonathanNeal> hello
# [16:56] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@221x249x212x15.ap221.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
# [16:56] * Quits: jernoble_ (~jernoble@199-188-193-107.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
# [16:59] * Quits: rubatdub (~khalil@213.188.180.185) (Quit: Quitte)
# [17:03] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
# [17:06] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@170.238-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be)
# [17:09] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@65-36-73-92.dyn.grandenetworks.net)
# [17:09] * Parts: dekiss (~dekiss@77.28.27.97)
# [17:11] * Quits: Martin1982 (~Martin198@cable-175-208.zeelandnet.nl) (Quit: Gone snoring)
# [17:12] * Joins: JibberJim (~opera@212.58.232.179)
# [17:12] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@60.32.72.88) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [17:13] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@66.109.105.210)
# [17:15] <Ms2ger> tobie, for http://www.w3.org/wiki/Testing/Infra/Notification_Hell , can I propose critic as an alternative solution?
# [17:17] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
# [17:17] <tobie> Ms2ger: jgraham brought that up on #testing earlier.
# [17:17] * Quits: JibberJim (~opera@212.58.232.179) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [17:17] * Quits: charl_ (~charl@2001:67c:2564:524:92b1:1cff:fe89:ae5) (Quit: leaving)
# [17:17] * Quits: espadrine (~ttyl@tsf-444-wpa-0-044.epfl.ch) (Quit: Leaving)
# [17:19] * Joins: Martin1982 (~Martin198@cable-175-208.zeelandnet.nl)
# [17:19] * Quits: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-118-109-238-83.kng.mesh.ad.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [17:19] * Joins: linclark (~clark@c-67-186-35-246.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
# [17:19] * Quits: Martin1982 (~Martin198@cable-175-208.zeelandnet.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [17:20] <Ms2ger> And if you guys like dinos, Mozilla has a nice one ;)
# [17:20] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com)
# [17:20] * Joins: Martin1982 (~Martin198@cable-175-208.zeelandnet.nl)
# [17:20] <Ms2ger> Ah, zcorpan
# [17:21] * Ms2ger continues reading backlog
# [17:21] <Ms2ger> Nvm :)
# [17:22] <Ms2ger> "To JavaScript programmers, it's the only thing that makes sense."
# [17:22] * Ms2ger stops reading
# [17:22] * Quits: SimonSapin (~simon@61.202.242.194) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [17:23] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [17:27] * Joins: mven_ (~mven@245.sub-70-199-196.myvzw.com)
# [17:28] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@70-36-197-111.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
# [17:28] * Joins: nimbu (~nimbu@sjfw1.adobe.com)
# [17:31] * Quits: Martin1982 (~Martin198@cable-175-208.zeelandnet.nl) (Quit: Gone snoring)
# [17:33] * Quits: nimbu (~nimbu@sjfw1.adobe.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [17:34] * Joins: nimbu (~nimbu@sjfw1.adobe.com)
# [17:35] * Quits: Kolombiken (~Adium@gateway.creuna.se) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [17:37] * Quits: kborchers (~kborchers@unaffiliated/kborchers) (Excess Flood)
# [17:39] <reyre> is the w3c html page down?
# [17:40] <JonathanNeal> which one, reyre?
# [17:40] <reyre> JonathanNeal: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/
# [17:40] * Joins: frozenice (~frozenice@unaffiliated/fr0zenice)
# [17:40] * Joins: kborchers (~kborchers@unaffiliated/kborchers)
# [17:42] <Ms2ger> whatwg.org/html is up
# [17:44] <reyre> Ms2ger: awesome, i'll use that :)
# [17:44] <reyre> thanks
# [17:44] <Ms2ger> Np
# [17:44] <reyre> Ms2ger: is this less up to date then w3c site?
# [17:44] * Quits: Masklinn (~textual@109.89.68.161)
# [17:45] <Ms2ger> More
# [17:47] <reyre> Ms2ger: agh :( that means the spec has changed again for WEBVTT ...
# [17:48] <reyre> sigh
# [17:48] * Joins: emailshwetank (~shwetank@122.161.109.86)
# [17:48] * Quits: shwetank (~shwetank@122.161.109.86) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [17:54] * Joins: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-118-109-238-83.kng.mesh.ad.jp)
# [17:54] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
# [17:56] * Quits: mven_ (~mven@245.sub-70-199-196.myvzw.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [17:57] * Quits: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-118-109-238-83.kng.mesh.ad.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [17:58] * Joins: nimbu1 (~nimbu@sjfw1.adobe.com)
# [17:58] * Joins: shwetank (~shwetank@122.161.109.86)
# [17:58] * Quits: emailshwetank (~shwetank@122.161.109.86) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [17:59] * Quits: nimbu (~nimbu@sjfw1.adobe.com) (Read error: Operation timed out)
# [18:01] <Philip`> reyre: I think they're divergent forks, so different people will have different opinions in which is more up to date
# [18:03] * Joins: mven (~mven@245.sub-70-199-196.myvzw.com)
# [18:04] <Ms2ger> But he works on Mozilla, so for his purposes, the WHATWG version is most up to date :)
# [18:04] * Quits: jernoble (~jernoble@66.109.105.210) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
# [18:06] * Quits: darobin (~darobin@78.109.80.74) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [18:08] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@108-75-75-178.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
# [18:09] * Quits: benschwarz (uid2121@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hqphghpuwwsvjaeq) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [18:13] <jgraham> (is that also true for WebVTT? I'm not sure what happened there)
# [18:13] * Quits: codeho (~codeho@p57A87E8D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: codeho)
# [18:15] <rillian> jgraham: iirc silvia is maintaining the spec at http://dev.w3.org/html5/webvtt/
# [18:16] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@17.114.27.51)
# [18:16] <rillian> I don't know about the whatwg side
# [18:16] * Joins: codeho (~codeho@p5B04D84B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
# [18:18] * Joins: bholley (~bholley@c-67-180-21-133.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [18:20] * Joins: tantek-ipod (~tantek@m990536d0.tmodns.net)
# [18:21] * Quits: tantek-ipod (~tantek@m990536d0.tmodns.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [18:21] * Quits: Smylers (~smylers@81.143.60.194) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [18:22] * Joins: Masklinn (~textual@213.219.188.212.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net)
# [18:24] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
# [18:24] * Joins: Martin1982 (~Martin198@541A8D15.cm-5-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
# [18:26] <annevk> the format is W3C-only
# [18:26] * Joins: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-118-109-238-83.kng.mesh.ad.jp)
# [18:26] <annevk> or CG-only
# [18:26] * Quits: jernoble (~jernoble@17.114.27.51) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
# [18:26] * Joins: tantek-ipod (~tantek@m990536d0.tmodns.net)
# [18:26] <annevk> <track> and such are part of HTML still
# [18:31] * Quits: mitemitreski (~mitemitre@212.120.17.179) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [18:31] * Quits: Martin1982 (~Martin198@541A8D15.cm-5-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Quit: Gone snoring)
# [18:34] * Joins: darobin (~darobin@2a01:e34:ed05:d180:d125:25ce:6655:267c)
# [18:34] * Quits: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-118-109-238-83.kng.mesh.ad.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [18:35] * Quits: tantek-ipod (~tantek@m990536d0.tmodns.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [18:36] * Quits: darobin (~darobin@2a01:e34:ed05:d180:d125:25ce:6655:267c) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [18:38] * Joins: tantek-ipod (~tantek@m990536d0.tmodns.net)
# [18:42] * Joins: alecf (alecf@nat/google/x-ztonulhfvhkwjfnc)
# [18:44] * Joins: Martin1982 (~Martin198@541A8D15.cm-5-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
# [18:44] * Quits: Martin1982 (~Martin198@541A8D15.cm-5-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Client Quit)
# [18:47] * Quits: tantek-ipod (~tantek@m990536d0.tmodns.net) (Quit: Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi)
# [18:48] * Quits: mven (~mven@245.sub-70-199-196.myvzw.com) (Read error: No route to host)
# [18:54] * Joins: jarek (~jarek@unaffiliated/jarek)
# [18:54] * Joins: Cromulent (~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
# [18:58] * Quits: nimbu1 (~nimbu@sjfw1.adobe.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [19:01] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [19:04] * Joins: ehsan_ (~ehsan@66.207.208.98)
# [19:05] * Quits: newtron_ (~newtron@199.71.174.103) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [19:05] * Joins: newtron (~newtron@199.71.174.102)
# [19:05] * Joins: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-118-109-238-83.kng.mesh.ad.jp)
# [19:13] * Quits: codeho (~codeho@p5B04D84B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: codeho)
# [19:14] * Quits: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-118-109-238-83.kng.mesh.ad.jp) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
# [19:17] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@65-36-73-92.dyn.grandenetworks.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [19:19] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
# [19:20] * Quits: benbarnett (~Adium@195.81.245.98) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [19:26] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
# [19:28] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-52-206.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [19:29] * Joins: cheron (~cheron@unaffiliated/cheron)
# [19:30] <SteveF> Ms2ger: depends on which folks at Mozilla for which spec to use
# [19:30] <Ms2ger> Track
# [19:31] <SteveF> for acc implementations the W3C html spec is generally more up to date and followed
# [19:32] <Ms2ger> Ah, we're implementing longdesc?
# [19:32] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@65-36-73-92.dyn.grandenetworks.net)
# [19:33] <SteveF> Ms2ger: nut talking about longdesc
# [19:33] <SteveF> Ms2ger: thats not in the HTML spec
# [19:34] <SteveF> Ms2ger: but alas you are
# [19:34] <annevk> I wonder how that was decided
# [19:35] <SteveF> the acc support for longdesc has been implemented in Firefox for donkeys years, only browser that implemented AFAIK
# [19:35] <tantek> Here is the bug: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=854848
# [19:36] * Joins: gavinc (~gavin@barad-dur.carothers.name)
# [19:37] * Joins: scor (~scor@12.216.138.254)
# [19:37] * Quits: scor (~scor@12.216.138.254) (Changing host)
# [19:37] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
# [19:38] * Quits: jarek (~jarek@unaffiliated/jarek) (Quit: jarek)
# [19:38] * Parts: jreading (~Adium@ip98-169-193-48.dc.dc.cox.net)
# [19:40] * Joins: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-118-109-238-83.kng.mesh.ad.jp)
# [19:40] * Quits: eric_carlson (~eric@17.212.152.104) (Quit: eric_carlson)
# [19:42] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
# [19:43] * Joins: JibberJim (~opera@host-78-146-51-49.as13285.net)
# [19:43] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com)
# [19:43] * Joins: nimbu (~nimbu@sjfw1.adobe.com)
# [19:44] * Quits: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-118-109-238-83.kng.mesh.ad.jp) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
# [19:46] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@v-1045.fw1.sfo1.mozilla.net)
# [19:48] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@v-1045.fw1.sfo1.mozilla.net) (Client Quit)
# [19:52] * Joins: fishd_ (~darin@216.239.45.66)
# [19:52] * Joins: skcin7_ (~skcin7@c-68-38-156-213.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
# [19:53] * Joins: yoshiki_ (yoshiki@nat/google/x-hpzsjifegukyfejv)
# [19:53] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@v-1045.fw1.sfo1.mozilla.net)
# [19:54] * Joins: ojan (uid5519@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uafifoupydyftedw)
# [19:54] * Joins: zdobersek_ (~zdobersek@cpe-77.38.31.63.cable.t-1.si)
# [19:57] * Joins: wycats_ (uid79@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-farnmwxswzmntckg)
# [19:57] * Joins: jochen___ (jochen@nat/google/x-jwylmfuyleefwiow)
# [19:58] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
# [19:58] * Joins: Lachy_ (~Lachy@cm-84.215.71.136.getinternet.no)
# [19:58] * Joins: webben_ (~benjamin@198.61.227.102)
# [19:59] * Quits: skcin7 (~skcin7@c-68-38-156-213.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [19:59] * Quits: ojan_away (uid5519@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jareismsucdrjxdp) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [19:59] * Quits: wycats (uid79@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sluikvefojylbnrz) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [19:59] * Quits: zdobersek (~zdobersek@cpe-77.38.31.63.cable.t-1.si) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [19:59] * Quits: yoshiki (yoshiki@nat/google/x-eopdjdhzikwnaoed) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [19:59] * Quits: fishd (darin@nat/google/x-lebzbagopdexzppf) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [19:59] * Quits: pdr (uid7901@pdpc/supporter/active/pdr) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [19:59] * Quits: Famic (famic@hidden.dns.ug) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [19:59] * Quits: j_wright (~jwright@ip70-173-127-54.lv.lv.cox.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [19:59] * Quits: jochen__ (jochen@nat/google/x-ifhmswgsomrfcqkb) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [19:59] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.71.136.getinternet.no) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [19:59] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [19:59] * Quits: TallTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [19:59] * Quits: andreastt (ato@sny.no) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [19:59] * Quits: webben (~benjamin@198.61.227.102) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [19:59] * jochen___ is now known as jochen__
# [19:59] * Joins: Famic_ (famic@hidden.dns.ug)
# [19:59] * Joins: TallTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
# [20:00] * Joins: pdr (uid7901@pdpc/supporter/active/pdr)
# [20:00] * zdobersek_ is now known as zdobersek
# [20:01] * Parts: zdobersek (~zdobersek@cpe-77.38.31.63.cable.t-1.si)
# [20:01] * ojan is now known as ojan_away
# [20:02] * Joins: FireFly (~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly)
# [20:03] * Joins: Maurice` (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
# [20:03] * Joins: andreastt (ato@sny.no)
# [20:04] * Joins: jreading1 (~Adium@ip98-169-193-48.dc.dc.cox.net)
# [20:05] * Joins: benschwarz (uid2121@gateway/web/irccloud.com/session)
# [20:05] * Joins: scor (~scor@12.216.138.254)
# [20:06] * Joins: zewt_ (~foo@ec2-50-17-220-142.compute-1.amazonaws.com)
# [20:06] * Joins: jgraham_ (~jgraham@web91.webfaction.com)
# [20:06] * Joins: lerc_ (~quassel@121-74-233-23.telstraclear.net)
# [20:07] * Quits: scor (~scor@12.216.138.254) (Changing host)
# [20:07] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
# [20:07] * scor is now known as Guest62582
# [20:07] * wycats_ is now known as wycats
# [20:07] * Joins: eric_carlson (~eric@17.212.152.104)
# [20:07] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
# [20:07] * Quits: benschwarz (uid2121@gateway/web/irccloud.com/session) (Changing host)
# [20:07] * Joins: benschwarz (uid2121@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wijsarndpsrmpfrv)
# [20:07] * Quits: riddle (riddle@76.72.170.57) (Disconnected by services)
# [20:08] * Joins: riddle (riddle@us.yunix.net)
# Session Close: Tue Jun 04 20:09:29 2013
#
# Session Start: Tue Jun 04 20:09:29 2013
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [20:09] * Disconnected
# [20:10] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
# [20:10] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
# [20:10] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
# [20:10] * Set by smaug____!~chatzilla@GGZYYCCCXVIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi on Wed Mar 21 17:14:24
# [20:11] * Quits: krijn (~krijnhoet@ip4da4a84d.direct-adsl.nl) (*.net *.split)
# [20:11] * Quits: matjas (uid2247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yftkqkuwqgocecee) (*.net *.split)
# [20:11] * Quits: will_i_was (~william@san.space150.com) (*.net *.split)
# [20:11] * Quits: wirepair (fbi@random.supermario.org) (*.net *.split)
# [20:11] * Quits: Yudai (~Yudai@nttkyo090161.tkyo.nt.ngn2.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp) (*.net *.split)
# [20:11] * Quits: darkcypher_bit (~darkcyphe@vpn.space150.com) (*.net *.split)
# [20:11] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@76.14.87.162) (*.net *.split)
# [20:11] * Quits: astearns (~astearns@192.150.22.5) (*.net *.split)
# [20:11] * Quits: edsu (~edsu@pdpc/supporter/active/edsu) (*.net *.split)
# [20:11] * Quits: ryuone_ (~ryuone@133.242.16.101) (*.net *.split)
# [20:11] * Quits: chee (~chee@fsf/member/chee) (*.net *.split)
# [20:11] * krijn_ is now known as krijn
# [20:11] * Joins: darkcypher_bit (~darkcyphe@san.space150.com)
# [20:12] * Joins: blooberry (~blooberry@134.134.139.76)
# [20:12] * Quits: Bass10 (~Bass10@c-76-113-194-7.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [20:13] <MikeSmith> "While we've considered longdesc in the past, the landscape has changed and there are reasons to support it now. For one, the W3C validator now supports it, making it more likely to be supported across browsers."
# [20:13] <MikeSmith> sigh
# [20:13] * Joins: jmb (~jmb@mail.parsifal.org.uk)
# [20:14] * Joins: astearns (~astearns@192.150.22.5)
# [20:14] * Joins: Yudai (~Yudai@nttkyo090161.tkyo.nt.ngn2.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp)
# [20:14] * Joins: matjas (uid2247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cpzajmhcqxhwwzev)
# [20:14] * Joins: chee (~chee@fsf/member/chee)
# [20:14] <MikeSmith> I didn't add support for it to the validator as an endorsement.
# [20:14] * Joins: ryuone_ (~ryuone@133.242.16.101)
# [20:14] * Joins: Bass10 (Bass10@c-76-113-194-7.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
# [20:14] <MikeSmith> I added it mostly because of aggressive lobbying.
# [20:15] <MikeSmith> Similar to the kind of aggressive lobbying you can see in the comments in that bug.
# [20:16] * Joins: edsu (~edsu@li144-162.members.linode.com)
# [20:16] * Quits: edsu (~edsu@li144-162.members.linode.com) (Changing host)
# [20:16] * Joins: edsu (~edsu@pdpc/supporter/active/edsu)
# [20:16] * abarth|zZz is now known as abarth
# [20:16] <MikeSmith> Where the word "aggressive" is an understatement.
# [20:16] <MikeSmith> There are a lot of other words that kind of thing could be called.
# [20:17] <Philip`> Seems like an effective way to do lobbying - you increase the pressure until just one of your opponents cracks, and then you can use them as leverage against your remaining opponents, until you win
# [20:17] <tantek> MikeSmith, apparently, "successful"?
# [20:17] <MikeSmith> tantek: not sure it's successful for users
# [20:18] <MikeSmith> certainly yeah it's successful for the longdesc partisans
# [20:18] <jacobolus> MikeSmith: you could just add snippets of whatever bits you found most obnoxious to the validator output whenever it finds a longdesc
# [20:18] <tantek> MikeSmith - indeed, or for the web, or for accessibility overall.
# [20:18] <MikeSmith> Philip`: sadly yeah I guess so
# [20:19] * Joins: Rubennn (~Rubennn@apher.gewooniets.nl)
# [20:19] * Joins: Hixie_ (~ianh@178.255.149.100)
# [20:19] * Joins: teamcoltra (~frextual@opennic/teamcoltra)
# [20:19] * Joins: Aww- (~Aww@unaffiliated/aww)
# [20:19] * Quits: ivan\ (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
# [20:19] * Quits: Aww (~Aww@unaffiliated/aww) (Excess Flood)
# [20:19] * Quits: Rubennn_ (~Rubennn@apher.gewooniets.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
# [20:19] * Quits: Hixie (~ianh@178.255.149.100) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
# [20:19] * Quits: mounir (~mounir@oldworld.fr) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
# [20:19] * Joins: mounir (~mounir@oldworld.fr)
# [20:19] * Joins: wirepair (fbi@random.supermario.org)
# [20:20] * Quits: Obvious (tachikoma@188.226.74.2) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
# [20:20] <MikeSmith> jacobolus: Yeah I should have the validator emit a warning, "Despite some people wanting you to think otherwise, there is no consensus among accessibility professionals that the longdesc attribute is a win for accessibility."
# [20:21] * Aww- is now known as Aww
# [20:22] * Quits: Guest62582 (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: Guest62582)
# [20:22] * Quits: gavin___ (~gavin@76.14.87.162) (*.net *.split)
# [20:22] * Joins: ivan\ (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001)
# [20:23] <SteveF> better to let it be, there are other things to waste ones time on
# [20:24] * will_i_w_ is now known as will_i_was
# [20:24] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [20:24] * Quits: mikronaz (~mironaz@88-119-145-207.static.zebra.lt) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [20:24] <hober> we don't always reach consensus, but when we do, it's by exhaustion
# [20:24] * Joins: mikronaz (~mironaz@88-119-145-207.static.zebra.lt)
# [20:24] <MikeSmith> heh
# [20:27] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@76.14.87.162)
# [20:28] * Joins: sindresorhus_ (sindresorh@gateway/shell/ircrelay.com/x-uoqholwbfdstqoyl)
# [20:29] * Joins: heathjs (quassel@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:feae:6e5b)
# [20:29] * Quits: heathjs (quassel@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:feae:6e5b) (Changing host)
# [20:29] * Joins: heathjs (quassel@unaffiliated/ybit)
# [20:29] * Joins: dcheng (dcheng@nat/google/x-qaqutxmodyxypynp)
# [20:29] * Joins: jtcranme1 (~jcranmer@ltsp2.csl.tjhsst.edu)
# [20:30] * Joins: Workmon (~Dashiva@74.125.121.65)
# [20:30] * Quits: sindresorhus (sindresorh@gateway/shell/ircrelay.com/x-uyedduejwhnoxayf) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
# [20:30] * Quits: mounir (~mounir@oldworld.fr) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
# [20:30] * Quits: Masklinn (~textual@213.219.188.212.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
# [20:30] * Quits: Workshiva (~Dashiva@74.125.121.65) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
# [20:30] * Quits: Jedi_ (~Jedi@jedi.org) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
# [20:30] * Quits: heath (~quassel@unaffiliated/ybit) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
# [20:30] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@li326-230.members.linode.com) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
# [20:30] * sindresorhus_ is now known as sindresorhus
# [20:31] * Joins: Masklinn (~textual@213.219.188.212.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net)
# [20:31] * Quits: ahf (ahf@irssi/staff/ahf) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
# [20:31] * Joins: ahf (ahf@irssi/staff/ahf)
# [20:32] * Joins: zdobersek (~zdobersek@cpe-77.38.31.63.cable.t-1.si)
# [20:33] * Quits: baku (~baku@2-236-39-253.ip231.fastwebnet.it) (Quit: Leaving)
# [20:33] * Joins: Bass10_ (Bass10@c-76-113-194-7.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
# [20:33] * Joins: lilmonkey` (~colin@5469E6D4.cm-12-2d.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
# [20:33] * Quits: lilmonkey` (~colin@5469E6D4.cm-12-2d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Changing host)
# [20:33] * Joins: lilmonkey` (~colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven)
# [20:34] * Joins: rillian_ (giles@mf4-xiph.osuosl.org)
# [20:34] * Joins: will_i_w_ (~william@blackhole.space150.com)
# [20:34] * Joins: boaz (~boaz@li326-230.members.linode.com)
# [20:34] * Quits: chee (~chee@fsf/member/chee) (Ping timeout: 271 seconds)
# [20:34] * will_i_w_ is now known as will_i_was_
# [20:35] * Quits: lilmonkey` (~colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven) (Read error: No buffer space available)
# [20:35] * Quits: mikronaz (~mironaz@88-119-145-207.static.zebra.lt) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [20:35] * will_i_was_ is now known as will_i_was__WTF
# [20:35] * Joins: mounir (~mounir@oldworld.fr)
# [20:35] * will_i_was__WTF is now known as will_i_will_be
# [20:35] * Joins: chee (~chee@fsf/member/chee)
# [20:36] * Joins: astearns_ (~astearns@192.150.22.5)
# [20:36] * Joins: gavin___ (~gavin@people1.scl3.mozilla.com)
# [20:36] * will_i_will_be is now known as will_i_was_
# [20:36] * will_i_was_ is now known as will_i_will_be
# [20:36] * Joins: jreading (~Adium@ip98-169-193-48.dc.dc.cox.net)
# [20:36] * Quits: twisted` (uid6794@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-skryuaucjkxnvwwd) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [20:36] * Joins: mikronaz (~mironaz@88-119-145-207.static.zebra.lt)
# [20:37] * Quits: fishd_ (~darin@216.239.45.66) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [20:37] * Quits: dcheng (dcheng@nat/google/x-qaqutxmodyxypynp) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [20:37] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@70-36-197-111.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [20:37] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [20:37] * Quits: Phae (uid455@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qepttczanyklujje) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [20:37] * Quits: ryuone_ (~ryuone@133.242.16.101) (Ping timeout: 289 seconds)
# [20:37] * Joins: lerc (~quassel@121-74-233-23.telstraclear.net)
# [20:37] * Quits: nonge (~nonge@p50828367.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 289 seconds)
# [20:37] * Joins: nonge (~nonge@p50828367.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
# [20:37] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@nat/canonical/x-eequxrrffxfqzbsq)
# [20:37] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@nat/canonical/x-eequxrrffxfqzbsq) (Changing host)
# [20:37] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
# [20:38] * Joins: fishd_ (darin@nat/google/x-dugxuhqjiykpscgy)
# [20:38] * Quits: pdr (uid7901@pdpc/supporter/active/pdr) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [20:38] * Quits: gavin (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [20:38] * Quits: broquaint (~dbrook@static.94.217.47.78.clients.your-server.de) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [20:38] * Joins: Jedi_ (~Jedi@jedi.org)
# [20:38] * Quits: dcheng_ (dcheng@nat/google/x-cklhfldcdwiqxxmw) (Write error: Broken pipe)
# [20:38] * Quits: nimbu (~nimbu@sjfw1.adobe.com) (Write error: Broken pipe)
# [20:38] * Quits: moo-_- (miohtama@lakka.kapsi.fi) (Excess Flood)
# [20:38] * Quits: Areks (~Areks@rs.gridnine.com) (Excess Flood)
# [20:38] <jacobolus> way too mild. name names! step it up!
# [20:38] <jacobolus> "X, Y, and Z companies pressured the validator to add 'longdesc', but everyone else on the web thinks it's a dumb idea"
# [20:38] * Joins: jochen___ (jochen@nat/google/x-qjzlcdgwafbgdvkg)
# [20:38] * Joins: othree (~othree@li379-129.members.linode.com)
# [20:38] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
# [20:38] * Quits: jtcranmer (~jcranmer@ltsp2.csl.tjhsst.edu) (Write error: Broken pipe)
# [20:38] * Quits: JakeA (uid3836@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yzckptxfynmtwqxr) (Ping timeout: 367 seconds)
# [20:38] * Quits: TabAtkins (uid11559@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bketakhcioynqjjm) (Ping timeout: 367 seconds)
# [20:38] * Quits: sawrubh (uid6719@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mpruwwgdzfrcfivw) (Ping timeout: 367 seconds)
# [20:38] * Quits: scheib (uid4467@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rfdrvamzqfzkwcuw) (Ping timeout: 367 seconds)
# [20:38] * Quits: rillian (~giles@140.211.15.28) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [20:38] <jacobolus> :p
# [20:38] * Joins: ryuone_ (~ryuone@133.242.16.101)
# [20:39] * Joins: scheib (uid4467@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fptmxksqlkcgmyhj)
# [20:39] * Joins: edsu_ (~edsu@li144-162.members.linode.com)
# [20:39] * Quits: edsu_ (~edsu@li144-162.members.linode.com) (Changing host)
# [20:39] * Joins: edsu_ (~edsu@pdpc/supporter/active/edsu)
# [20:39] * Joins: lilmonkey` (~colin@5469E6D4.cm-12-2d.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
# [20:39] * Quits: lilmonkey` (~colin@5469E6D4.cm-12-2d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Changing host)
# [20:39] * Joins: lilmonkey` (~colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven)
# [20:39] * Joins: gavinc_ (~gavin@barad-dur.carothers.name)
# [20:39] * Joins: sawrubh (uid6719@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bmoebbamvkqoulmv)
# [20:39] * Joins: JakeA (uid3836@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wamocrngtcxvrduc)
# [20:39] * Joins: moo-_- (miohtama@lakka.kapsi.fi)
# [20:39] * Quits: teamcoltra (~frextual@opennic/teamcoltra) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
# [20:39] * Joins: TabAtkins (uid11559@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-typrdjblluauuuqa)
# [20:40] * Quits: bzed (~bzed@devel.recluse.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [20:41] * Joins: Obvious (tachikoma@188.226.74.2)
# [20:41] * Quits: lilmonkey` (~colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven) (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
# [20:41] * Quits: mikronaz (~mironaz@88-119-145-207.static.zebra.lt) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
# [20:41] * Quits: matjas (uid2247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cpzajmhcqxhwwzev) (Ping timeout: 251 seconds)
# [20:41] * Quits: reggna_ (~reggna@irc.jagochmittmoln.se) (Ping timeout: 251 seconds)
# [20:41] * Joins: WesleyL- (~Wesley@static.43.95.46.78.clients.your-server.de)
# [20:42] * Joins: Aww- (~Aww@unaffiliated/aww)
# [20:42] * Joins: wirepair_ (fbi@random.supermario.org)
# [20:42] * Joins: sindresorhus_ (sindresorh@gateway/shell/ircrelay.com/x-nufkubiicxbpjrxs)
# [20:42] * Joins: lilmonkey` (~colin@5469E6D4.cm-12-2d.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
# [20:42] * Quits: lilmonkey` (~colin@5469E6D4.cm-12-2d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Changing host)
# [20:42] * Joins: lilmonkey` (~colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven)
# [20:42] * Joins: hsivonen_ (~hsivonen@srv-e205.esp.mediateam.fi)
# [20:42] * Joins: ivan``_ (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001)
# [20:43] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@70-36-197-111.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
# [20:43] * Joins: teamcoltra (~frextual@opennic/teamcoltra)
# [20:43] * Joins: dcheng (dcheng@nat/google/x-pyrttfushrmhmupf)
# [20:43] * Joins: broquaint (~dbrook@static.94.217.47.78.clients.your-server.de)
# [20:44] * heathjs is now known as heath
# [20:44] * Joins: ajpiano_ (~ajpiano@li98-57.members.linode.com)
# [20:44] * Quits: Jedi_ (~Jedi@jedi.org) (Ping timeout: 278 seconds)
# [20:44] * Quits: chee (~chee@fsf/member/chee) (Ping timeout: 278 seconds)
# [20:44] * Joins: bzed (~bzed@devel.recluse.de)
# [20:45] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@17.212.152.13)
# [20:45] * Quits: gavinc_ (~gavin@barad-dur.carothers.name) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
# [20:46] * Joins: gavinc_ (~gavin@barad-dur.carothers.name)
# [20:46] * Quits: gavinc_ (~gavin@barad-dur.carothers.name) (Client Quit)
# [20:46] * Joins: gavinc_ (~gavin@barad-dur.carothers.name)
# [20:47] * Joins: Jedi_ (~Jedi@220.134.95.85)
# [20:47] * Joins: chee (~chee@snaek.org)
# [20:47] * gavin___ is now known as gavin
# [20:47] * Joins: ivan\_ (~ivan@108-213-76-179.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net)
# [20:48] * Quits: chee (~chee@snaek.org) (Changing host)
# [20:48] * Joins: chee (~chee@fsf/member/chee)
# [20:48] * Quits: gavin (~gavin@people1.scl3.mozilla.com) (Changing host)
# [20:48] * Joins: gavin (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
# [20:48] * Joins: reggna (~reggna@irc.jagochmittmoln.se)
# [20:48] * Quits: riddle (riddle@us.yunix.net) (Disconnected by services)
# [20:48] * Joins: riddle (riddle@us.yunix.net)
# [20:49] * Quits: sindresorhus (sindresorh@gateway/shell/ircrelay.com/x-uoqholwbfdstqoyl) (*.net *.split)
# [20:49] * Quits: ivan\ (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001) (*.net *.split)
# [20:49] * Quits: wirepair (fbi@random.supermario.org) (*.net *.split)
# [20:49] * Quits: Aww (~Aww@unaffiliated/aww) (*.net *.split)
# [20:49] * Quits: edsu (~edsu@pdpc/supporter/active/edsu) (*.net *.split)
# [20:49] * Quits: Bass10 (Bass10@c-76-113-194-7.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (*.net *.split)
# [20:49] * Quits: astearns (~astearns@192.150.22.5) (*.net *.split)
# [20:49] * Quits: will_i_was (~william@vpn.space150.com) (*.net *.split)
# [20:49] * Quits: lerc_ (~quassel@121-74-233-23.telstraclear.net) (*.net *.split)
# [20:49] * Quits: jreading1 (~Adium@ip98-169-193-48.dc.dc.cox.net) (*.net *.split)
# [20:49] * Quits: TallTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36) (*.net *.split)
# [20:49] * Quits: jochen__ (jochen@nat/google/x-jwylmfuyleefwiow) (*.net *.split)
# [20:49] * Quits: JibberJim (~opera@host-78-146-51-49.as13285.net) (*.net *.split)
# [20:49] * Quits: gavinc (~gavin@barad-dur.carothers.name) (*.net *.split)
# [20:49] * Quits: WesleyL (~Wesley@static.43.95.46.78.clients.your-server.de) (*.net *.split)
# [20:49] * Quits: ajpiano (~ajpiano@li98-57.members.linode.com) (*.net *.split)
# [20:49] * Quits: hsivonen (~hsivonen@srv-e205.esp.mediateam.fi) (*.net *.split)
# [20:49] * Quits: ivan`` (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001) (*.net *.split)
# [20:49] * Quits: othree_ (~othree@li379-129.members.linode.com) (*.net *.split)
# [20:49] * Quits: lilmonkey (~colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven) (*.net *.split)
# [20:49] * jochen___ is now known as jochen__
# [20:49] * astearns_ is now known as astearns
# [20:49] * sindresorhus_ is now known as sindresorhus
# [20:49] * Aww- is now known as Aww
# [20:49] * ajpiano_ is now known as ajpiano
# [20:49] * Quits: ivan\_ (~ivan@108-213-76-179.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net) (Excess Flood)
# [20:49] * Joins: ivan\ (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001)
# [20:50] * Joins: JohnAlbin_ (~JohnAlbin@114-42-60-5.dynamic.hinet.net)
# [20:50] * Joins: krawchyk_ (~krawchyk@65.220.49.251)
# [20:50] * Joins: newtron_ (~newtron@199.71.174.102)
# [20:52] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@17.212.154.114)
# [20:52] * Quits: rillian_ (giles@mf4-xiph.osuosl.org) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
# [20:52] * Quits: newtron (~newtron@199.71.174.102) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
# [20:53] * Quits: JohnAlbin (~JohnAlbin@114-42-60-5.dynamic.hinet.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
# [20:53] * Quits: gavinc_ (~gavin@barad-dur.carothers.name) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [20:53] * JohnAlbin_ is now known as JohnAlbin
# [20:53] * Joins: rillian (giles@mf4-xiph.osuosl.org)
# [20:53] * Joins: gavinc_ (~gavin@barad-dur.carothers.name)
# [20:53] * will_i_will_be is now known as will_i_was
# [20:54] * Quits: krawchyk (~krawchyk@65.220.49.251) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [20:59] * Joins: Somatt_wrk_ (~somattwrk@darkstar2.fullsix.com)
# [20:59] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
# [20:59] * Joins: jreading1 (~Adium@ip98-169-193-48.dc.dc.cox.net)
# [21:00] * Joins: jsbell (jsbell@nat/google/x-mniomzkpnouqezpe)
# [21:01] * Joins: matijsb_ (uid2278@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cjgpxrtqrehcfacg)
# [21:01] * Joins: reggna_ (~reggna@irc.jagochmittmoln.se)
# [21:01] * Joins: heathjs (quassel@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:feae:6e5b)
# [21:01] * Quits: heathjs (quassel@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:feae:6e5b) (Changing host)
# [21:01] * Joins: heathjs (quassel@unaffiliated/ybit)
# [21:02] * Joins: yodasw16_ (~yodasw16@ql1fwhide.rockfin.com)
# [21:02] * Quits: riddle (riddle@us.yunix.net) (Disconnected by services)
# [21:02] * Quits: ehsan_ (~ehsan@66.207.208.98) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [21:03] * Joins: riddle (riddle@us.yunix.net)
# [21:03] * Joins: andreast1 (ato@sny.no)
# [21:03] * Joins: bzed_ (~bzed@devel.recluse.de)
# [21:04] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@v-1045.fw1.sfo1.mozilla.net) (Quit: sicking)
# [21:04] * Joins: rc0mbs (~rcombs@rcombs.me)
# [21:04] * Joins: jernoble_ (~jernoble@17.212.154.234)
# [21:04] * Joins: ajpiano_ (~ajpiano@li98-57.members.linode.com)
# [21:05] * Quits: yodasw16 (~yodasw16@ql1fwhide.rockfin.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [21:05] * Quits: Maurice` (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [21:05] * Quits: matijsb (uid2278@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qczneicjfbgpcvmg) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [21:05] * Quits: kochi (kochi@nat/google/x-qobmdlrxczypdnfz) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [21:05] * Quits: reggna (~reggna@irc.jagochmittmoln.se) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [21:05] * yodasw16_ is now known as yodasw16
# [21:05] * Quits: ajpiano (~ajpiano@li98-57.members.linode.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [21:05] * Quits: jreading (~Adium@ip98-169-193-48.dc.dc.cox.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [21:05] * Quits: nielsle (~nielsle@3239149-cl69.boa.fiberby.dk) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [21:05] * Quits: bzed (~bzed@devel.recluse.de) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [21:05] * Quits: heath (quassel@unaffiliated/ybit) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [21:05] * Quits: Somatt_wrk (~somattwrk@darkstar2.fullsix.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [21:05] * Quits: malcolmva (~malcolmva@c-67-180-203-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [21:05] * Quits: beverloo_ (beverloo@nat/google/x-lbuysncimxfsqsog) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [21:05] * Quits: rcombs (~rcombs@rcombs.me) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [21:05] * Quits: andreastt (ato@sny.no) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [21:05] * bzed_ is now known as bzed
# [21:05] * ajpiano_ is now known as ajpiano
# [21:06] * heathjs is now known as heath
# [21:06] * Joins: silky__ (~malcolmva@c-67-180-203-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [21:06] * rc0mbs is now known as rcombs
# [21:06] * Joins: nielsle (~nielsle@3239149-cl69.boa.fiberby.dk)
# [21:07] * Joins: beverloo_ (beverloo@nat/google/x-zempjuqplrywhiok)
# [21:07] * matijsb_ is now known as matijsb
# [21:07] * Joins: kochi (~kochi@2401:fa00:4:1004:26be:5ff:fe03:db82)
# [21:07] * Joins: dgrogan (dgrogan@nat/google/x-sabicwcwfbpyaylr)
# [21:08] * Joins: ehsan_ (~ehsan@66.207.208.98)
# [21:09] * Quits: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [21:09] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
# [21:10] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@70-36-197-111.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: tantek)
# [21:11] * Quits: broquaint (~dbrook@static.94.217.47.78.clients.your-server.de) (Ping timeout: 271 seconds)
# [21:11] * Quits: kinetik (~kinetik@121.99.38.239) (Ping timeout: 271 seconds)
# [21:11] * Joins: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-118-109-238-83.kng.mesh.ad.jp)
# [21:11] * Joins: kinetik (~kinetik@121.99.38.239)
# [21:11] * Quits: jryans (~jryans@office.massrel.com) (Ping timeout: 274 seconds)
# [21:13] * Joins: JohnAlbin_ (~JohnAlbin@114-42-60-5.dynamic.hinet.net)
# [21:14] * Joins: ehsan__ (~ehsan@66.207.208.98)
# [21:14] * Quits: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199) (*.net *.split)
# [21:14] * Quits: ehsan_ (~ehsan@66.207.208.98) (*.net *.split)
# [21:14] * Quits: krawchyk_ (~krawchyk@65.220.49.251) (*.net *.split)
# [21:14] * Quits: JohnAlbin (~JohnAlbin@114-42-60-5.dynamic.hinet.net) (*.net *.split)
# [21:14] * JohnAlbin_ is now known as JohnAlbin
# [21:15] * Quits: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-118-109-238-83.kng.mesh.ad.jp) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
# [21:17] <JonathanNeal> So, <meta>!
# [21:18] * Quits: brainproxy (~brainprox@pdpc/supporter/gold/brainproxy) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
# [21:19] * Quits: frozenice (~frozenice@unaffiliated/fr0zenice) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
# [21:20] * Joins: brainproxy (~brainprox@pdpc/supporter/gold/brainproxy)
# [21:21] * Joins: broquaint (~dbrook@static.94.217.47.78.clients.your-server.de)
# [21:21] <zcorpan> jacobolus: companies or individuals?
# [21:21] * Joins: krawchyk (~krawchyk@65.220.49.251)
# [21:22] <jacobolus> zcorpan: I dunno. I'm just joking :)
# [21:25] * Joins: darfia (~darfia@201.82.163.65)
# [21:25] * globbot is now known as 6JTAARAD5
# [21:25] * Joins: globbot (~logbot@lump.glob.com.au)
# [21:30] <jgraham_> jacobolus: You should be warned that one of the Commandments of The Lobby is "Thou Shalt Not Joke About Longdesc"
# [21:31] <jacobolus> jgraham_: maybe browsers can just put in a picture of longcat every time someone uses a longdesc?
# [21:31] <jacobolus> (completely serious recommendation)
# [21:31] <Ms2ger> jacobolus, but how will the blind people see it?
# [21:32] <jacobolus> long meows?
# [21:32] * jgraham_ is now known as jgraham
# [21:33] * Quits: yodasw16 (~yodasw16@ql1fwhide.rockfin.com) (Quit: yodasw16)
# [21:36] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
# [21:36] * Quits: decotii (~decotii@static-98-116-12-109.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
# [21:41] * Quits: richt (~richt@222.233.254.208) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [21:41] * Joins: richt (~richt@222.233.254.208)
# [21:41] * Joins: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-118-109-238-83.kng.mesh.ad.jp)
# [21:42] * Quits: will_i_was (~william@blackhole.space150.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [21:44] * Quits: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [21:44] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
# [21:45] * Quits: darkcypher_bit (~darkcyphe@san.space150.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [21:46] * Quits: richt (~richt@222.233.254.208) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
# [21:46] * Quits: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-118-109-238-83.kng.mesh.ad.jp) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [21:48] * Joins: timClicks (~tim@2001:df0:0:2005:1dcc:7ed1:6e48:c88d)
# [21:48] * Joins: ap (~ap@2620:149:4:1b01:202e:3369:92fe:a565)
# [21:49] * Quits: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [21:50] * Joins: Phae (uid455@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dwbebfshndexolwt)
# [21:54] * Quits: jernoble_ (~jernoble@17.212.154.234) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
# [21:55] * Quits: newtron_ (~newtron@199.71.174.102) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [21:56] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-52-206.dsl.telepac.pt)
# [21:57] * Joins: IceBerG_ (~IceBerG@82.211.154.143)
# [22:00] * Joins: newtron (~newtron@199.71.174.103)
# [22:00] * Quits: IceBerG_ (~IceBerG@82.211.154.143) (Client Quit)
# [22:02] * Joins: yodasw16 (~yodasw16@ql1fwhide.rockfin.com)
# [22:04] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-52-206.dsl.telepac.pt) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
# [22:07] * Joins: timClicks_ (~tim@2001:df0:0:2005:1dcc:7ed1:6e48:c88d)
# [22:08] * Quits: timClicks (~tim@2001:df0:0:2005:1dcc:7ed1:6e48:c88d) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [22:09] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no)
# [22:09] * Quits: shwetank (~shwetank@122.161.109.86) (Quit: Leaving...)
# [22:14] <Hixie_> woah, crashed gecko
# [22:14] <Hixie_> it's been a while
# [22:14] <Hixie_> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2276
# [22:15] <Hixie_> Ms2ger: ping https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21736
# [22:15] * Joins: skcin7 (~skcin7@c-68-38-156-213.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
# [22:15] * Joins: barneybook (~kvirc@220-136-41-200.dynamic.hinet.net)
# [22:15] <Ms2ger> Hixie_, which Gecko?
# [22:16] <Hixie_> Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:23.0) Gecko/20130508 Firefox/23.0
# [22:17] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.71.136.getinternet.no)
# [22:18] * Ms2ger frowns
# [22:18] * Quits: barneybook|2 (~kvirc@220-136-42-76.dynamic.hinet.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
# [22:19] * Quits: yodasw16 (~yodasw16@ql1fwhide.rockfin.com) (*.net *.split)
# [22:19] * Quits: ap (~ap@2620:149:4:1b01:202e:3369:92fe:a565) (*.net *.split)
# [22:19] * Quits: ehsan__ (~ehsan@66.207.208.98) (*.net *.split)
# [22:19] * Quits: beverloo_ (beverloo@nat/google/x-zempjuqplrywhiok) (*.net *.split)
# [22:19] * Quits: rcombs (~rcombs@rcombs.me) (*.net *.split)
# [22:19] * Quits: jsbell (jsbell@nat/google/x-mniomzkpnouqezpe) (*.net *.split)
# [22:19] * Quits: rillian (giles@mf4-xiph.osuosl.org) (*.net *.split)
# [22:19] * Quits: Jedi_ (~Jedi@220.134.95.85) (*.net *.split)
# [22:19] * Quits: Obvious (tachikoma@188.226.74.2) (*.net *.split)
# [22:19] * Quits: moo-_- (miohtama@lakka.kapsi.fi) (*.net *.split)
# [22:19] * Quits: blooberry (~blooberry@134.134.139.76) (*.net *.split)
# [22:19] * Quits: Lachy_ (~Lachy@cm-84.215.71.136.getinternet.no) (*.net *.split)
# [22:19] * Quits: skcin7_ (~skcin7@c-68-38-156-213.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) (*.net *.split)
# [22:19] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (*.net *.split)
# [22:19] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@108-75-75-178.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (*.net *.split)
# [22:19] * Quits: jamesr_ (uid10481@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-phirhhapcxfkmzaw) (*.net *.split)
# [22:19] * Quits: abarth (uid5294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-esbhsjgjzbnbzhen) (*.net *.split)
# [22:19] * Joins: JibberJim (~opera@host-78-146-51-49.as13285.net)
# [22:20] <jgraham> That's pretty out of date?
# [22:20] * Joins: vcarbune (~vcarbune@84-74-140-149.dclient.hispeed.ch)
# [22:20] <Ms2ger> I can find no proof in the code that a named getter would ever have existed on select
# [22:21] * Quits: krawchyk (~krawchyk@65.220.49.251) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [22:21] <Ms2ger> Hixie_, huh.
# [22:22] <Hixie_> "pretty out of date"! that's barely a month old! and i've been gone for most of that month! :-P
# [22:22] <Hixie_> gotta give the poor browser time to download its updates
# [22:22] * Joins: Jedi_ (~Jedi@jedi.org)
# [22:22] <Hixie_> i'm actually surprised it's not older, since i was afk from 0504! :-)
# [22:22] <Ms2ger> The crash with namedItem is probably https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=877910
# [22:23] <Ms2ger> But I'm quite confused where I got that
# [22:23] <Hixie_> any idea what made you file the bug? :-)
# [22:24] <Ms2ger> I presume something
# [22:26] <jgraham> I thought that "more than 24 hours" was "pretty out of date" for a browser these days :p
# [22:26] <jgraham> Although actually some of mine are rather more out of date than that
# [22:26] * Joins: TallTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
# [22:26] * Joins: Obvious (tachikoma@188.226.74.2)
# [22:26] <jgraham> Opera 12.16 for example...
# [22:27] * Ms2ger looks at the bugs he touched around that time
# [22:27] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@v-1045.fw1.sfo1.mozilla.net)
# [22:27] * Joins: matjas (uid2247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ewycaovqygnrambe)
# [22:28] <Ms2ger> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=862084 presumably...
# [22:28] * Quits: darfia (~darfia@201.82.163.65) (Quit: Leaving)
# [22:28] * Joins: rillian (~giles@140.211.15.28)
# [22:28] * Joins: yodasw16 (~yodasw16@ql1fwhide.rockfin.com)
# [22:28] * Joins: ap (~ap@2620:149:4:1b01:202e:3369:92fe:a565)
# [22:28] * Joins: ehsan__ (~ehsan@66.207.208.98)
# [22:28] * Joins: beverloo_ (beverloo@nat/google/x-zempjuqplrywhiok)
# [22:28] * Joins: rcombs (~rcombs@rcombs.me)
# [22:28] * Joins: jsbell (jsbell@nat/google/x-mniomzkpnouqezpe)
# [22:28] * Joins: moo-_- (miohtama@lakka.kapsi.fi)
# [22:28] * Joins: blooberry (~blooberry@134.134.139.76)
# [22:28] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com)
# [22:28] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@108-75-75-178.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
# [22:28] * Joins: jamesr_ (uid10481@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-phirhhapcxfkmzaw)
# [22:28] * Joins: abarth (uid5294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-esbhsjgjzbnbzhen)
# [22:29] <Ms2ger> Hixie_, so I probably just got confused by the namedItem
# [22:29] <Hixie_> k
# [22:30] <Ms2ger> Hixie_, while you're in the area, https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22225
# [22:31] * Quits: jreading1 (~Adium@ip98-169-193-48.dc.dc.cox.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
# [22:32] <Hixie_> i've long left the area, but i'll be back. :-)
# [22:33] <Ms2ger> That fixes the crash you hit ;)
# [22:33] <Hixie_> ...how? o_O
# [22:33] <Hixie_> resource selection algorithm, 9, <source>, 10: Failed: Queue a task, using the DOM manipulation task source, to fire a simple event named error at the candidate element, in the context of the fetching process that was used to try to obtain candidate's corresponding media resource in the resource fetch algorithm.
# [22:33] <Ms2ger> Because JSAPI sucks :)
# [22:33] * Quits: SteveF (~chatzilla@cpc3-nmal20-2-0-cust916.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
# [22:33] <Hixie_> anyone have any idea wtf i was talking about when i wrote "in the context of..." above?
# [22:33] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98)
# [22:34] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [22:34] <Ms2ger> And in particular, we were creating the returned JS object manually, and needed the JS object for the options collection to exist for that
# [22:34] * Quits: ehsan__ (~ehsan@66.207.208.98) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [22:35] * Quits: ap (~ap@2620:149:4:1b01:202e:3369:92fe:a565) (Quit: ap)
# [22:35] <jgraham> Hixie_: Not a clue.
# [22:36] <Hixie_> ok i'm removing that text
# [22:36] <Hixie_> doesn't seem to mean anything
# [22:36] <Hixie_> and i've no idea what i was trying to say
# [22:36] * Joins: william (~william@vpn.space150.com)
# [22:36] <Hixie_> Ms2ger: that sounds... unrelated to the idl? :-)
# [22:36] <Ms2ger> Hixie_, well, our IDL said 'object'
# [22:37] * william is now known as Guest13756
# [22:37] <Ms2ger> And if it says that, you need to use JSObjects
# [22:37] <Ms2ger> It sucks
# [22:37] <Hixie_> k
# [22:37] <Hixie_> i guess
# [22:37] <Hixie_> :-)
# [22:37] * Joins: pdr (uid7901@pdpc/supporter/active/pdr)
# [22:38] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98)
# [22:38] * Guest13756 is now known as will_i_was
# [22:39] <Ms2ger> Hixie_, fun stuff! :)
# [22:39] <jgraham> Can your IDL not express A or B
# [22:39] <jgraham> ?
# [22:39] <Ms2ger> Yes
# [22:39] <Ms2ger> But not for return values
# [22:39] <jgraham> Oh
# [22:40] <Ms2ger> Lifetime management there is somewhat annoying, aiui
# [22:41] <Ms2ger> It'll come eventually, I hope
# [22:41] * Joins: twisted` (uid6794@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yhenbjtopmhsszti)
# [22:42] * Joins: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-118-109-238-83.kng.mesh.ad.jp)
# [22:43] * Quits: yodasw16 (~yodasw16@ql1fwhide.rockfin.com) (Quit: yodasw16)
# [22:43] * Joins: vcarbune_ (~vcarbune@vpn-global-dhcp1-201.ethz.ch)
# [22:43] * Joins: newtron_ (~newtron@199.71.174.103)
# [22:44] * Quits: newtron (~newtron@199.71.174.103) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [22:45] * Joins: ambv (~ambv@aee24.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
# [22:47] * Quits: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-118-109-238-83.kng.mesh.ad.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [22:47] * Quits: vcarbune (~vcarbune@84-74-140-149.dclient.hispeed.ch) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [22:49] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@221x249x212x15.ap221.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [22:50] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@221x249x212x15.ap221.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
# [22:51] * Quits: vcarbune_ (~vcarbune@vpn-global-dhcp1-201.ethz.ch) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [22:51] * Joins: vcarbune (~vcarbune@84-74-140-149.dclient.hispeed.ch)
# [22:51] <GPHemsley> hmm... the crash report comments for that crash are really angry
# [22:52] <GPHemsley> and/or uninformed
# [22:54] <Ms2ger> Better than uniformed, which is what i read first
# [22:54] * Quits: TallTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
# [22:56] * Quits: Masklinn (~textual@213.219.188.212.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net)
# [22:57] <Hixie_> so... why do we allow flow content in <dt> and <th>
# [22:59] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@170.238-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) (Quit: nn)
# [23:06] * Quits: yorick (~yorick@oftn/member/yorick) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [23:10] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
# [23:10] * Quits: vcarbune (~vcarbune@84-74-140-149.dclient.hispeed.ch) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [23:12] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@221x249x212x15.ap221.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
# [23:12] * Quits: eric_carlson (~eric@17.212.152.104) (Quit: eric_carlson)
# [23:12] * Joins: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-118-109-238-83.kng.mesh.ad.jp)
# [23:13] * Quits: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-118-109-238-83.kng.mesh.ad.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [23:14] * Joins: eric_carlson (~eric@17.212.155.92)
# [23:16] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
# [23:17] <zcorpan> interesting that view-source:http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps/source is horribly slow in browsers. except presto is fast
# [23:18] <zcorpan> does <pre class="idl foobar"> make webidl-check skip validation?
# [23:19] * Quits: cheron (~cheron@unaffiliated/cheron) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [23:20] <zcorpan> Hixie_: for <dt> i think the use case was something like Q&A. for <th> i guess things like forms?
# [23:20] * Quits: teamcoltra (~frextual@opennic/teamcoltra) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
# [23:21] * Joins: vcarbune (~vcarbune@84-74-140-149.dclient.hispeed.ch)
# [23:22] * Quits: reyre_ (~reyre_@142.204.133.18) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [23:23] <Hixie_> "idl extract" is to make the idl checker skip the block, yeah
# [23:23] <Hixie_> those use cases kind of make sense i guess
# [23:27] <zcorpan> thanks
# [23:30] <annevk> Hixie_: allowing flow content there... wasn't that a zcorpan thing?
# [23:30] <annevk> Hixie_: convoluted examples of complex markup in header cells
# [23:33] * Quits: skcin7 (~skcin7@c-68-38-156-213.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
# [23:33] * timClicks_ is now known as timClicks
# [23:33] <zcorpan> annevk: don't think so :-)
# [23:33] * Joins: j_wright (~jwright@ip70-173-127-54.lv.lv.cox.net)
# [23:34] <zcorpan> i recall 2006-ish when we pondered about content models i argued for phrasing-only in dt/th. but recently someone came up with the above use cases and the spec was changed to allow flow content. (also in figcaption)
# [23:35] * Joins: skcin7 (~skcin7@c-68-38-156-213.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
# [23:35] * Joins: SteveF (~chatzilla@cpc3-nmal20-2-0-cust916.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
# [23:35] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@207.218.72.65) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [23:36] <zcorpan> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/commit-watchers-whatwg.org/2011/005776.html
# [23:36] <zcorpan> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/commit-watchers-whatwg.org/2010/004216.html
# [23:37] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
# [23:38] * Quits: newtron_ (~newtron@199.71.174.103) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [23:38] <Hixie_> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13174#c6 already mentioned my plans for <dialog> in <th> :-)
# [23:40] <Hixie_> those examples seem to have changed :-(
# [23:42] * Quits: will_i_was (~william@vpn.space150.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [23:42] <zcorpan> maybe we should start attaching snapshots of pages to bugs
# [23:43] * Joins: will_i_was (~william@blackhole.space150.com)
# [23:43] * Joins: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-118-109-238-83.kng.mesh.ad.jp)
# [23:43] <Hixie_> well comment 2 has all you really need
# [23:47] * Quits: will_i_was (~william@blackhole.space150.com) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
# [23:47] * Quits: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-118-109-238-83.kng.mesh.ad.jp) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
# [23:48] * Quits: skcin7 (~skcin7@c-68-38-156-213.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
# [23:48] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@70-36-197-111.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
# [23:48] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
# [23:49] * GPHemsley notices dglazkov's mornings getting later and later
# [23:49] * Joins: jarek (~jarek@unaffiliated/jarek)
# [23:51] * Joins: will_i_was (~william@san.space150.com)
# [23:54] * Quits: Famic_ (famic@hidden.dns.ug) (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
# [23:54] * Joins: Somatt (famic@hidden.dns.ug)
# [23:54] * Parts: Somatt (famic@hidden.dns.ug)
# [23:55] * Quits: j_wright (~jwright@ip70-173-127-54.lv.lv.cox.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [23:55] * Joins: darkcypher_bit (~darkcyphe@san.space150.com)
# [23:57] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@221x249x212x15.ap221.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [23:58] * Quits: timClicks (~tim@2001:df0:0:2005:1dcc:7ed1:6e48:c88d) (Remote host closed the connection)
# Session Close: Wed Jun 05 00:00:00 2013

The end :)