/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-06-06 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Jun 06 00:00:00 2013
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:13] * Hixie_ comes across a comment in the html spec that says ""
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# [00:21] <Hixie_> well that's interesting
# [00:21] <Hixie_> while firefox supports svg in <embed>, chrome just supports anything. html. images.
# [00:21] * Hixie_ brings out IE as a tie-breaker
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# [00:24] <Hixie_> great, the version of IE I have won't even load flash
# [00:24] <Hixie_> anyone got IE10?
# [00:25] <Hixie_> control test: does this say "pass"? http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2283
# [00:25] <Hixie_> image test: what does this do? http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2284
# [00:25] <Hixie_> html test: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2285
# [00:25] <Hixie_> svg type test: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2286
# [00:26] <Hixie_> (ignore the dump button)
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# [00:28] <Hixie_> and finally, svg test: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2287
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# [00:30] <Hixie_> and finally finally, if the previous test actually worked: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2288
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# [01:46] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: IE8:
# [01:46] <GPHemsley> 2283 - pass
# [01:47] <GPHemsley> 2284 has a disabled, empty box with a scrollbar
# [01:47] <GPHemsley> 2285 has a tiny little empty square
# [01:48] <GPHemsley> same for 2286
# [01:48] <GPHemsley> 2287 has a wide empty rectangle
# [01:49] <GPHemsley> 2288 wants to run MSXML plugin
# [01:49] <GPHemsley> so... none of them in any way match the "control", if they were supposed to
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# [01:57] <Hixie_> GPHemsley: cool, thanks
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# [02:51] <dglazkov> good morning Whatwg!
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# [03:16] <boogyman> hi
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# [12:13] <annevk> Given WebRAW http://blog.bitops.com/blog/2013/06/04/webraw-asmjs/ and WebP, maybe allowing JavaScript to be an image decoder is not too bad...
# [12:14] <annevk> Would have to sandbox it somehow so it also works for cross-origin images. And needs a story for sniffing.
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# [12:17] <annevk> Hixie_: Giving https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22185 priority would be great
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# [12:20] <jgraham> annevk: Well you could scope it to same-origin only, perhaps
# [12:20] <annevk> jgraham: that's not acceptable
# [12:20] <jgraham> Why not?
# [12:20] <annevk> jgraham: because that doesn't match what the platform can do
# [12:20] <jgraham> It seems strivtly better than it not working at all
# [12:21] <annevk> jgraham: I think a worker without networking APIs or postMessage would be workable
# [12:21] <jgraham> And matches what people retrospectively wish the platform had done
# [12:21] <annevk> jgraham: the only thing it can do is decode a stream
# [12:22] <jgraham> Making up a new kind of global scope for each new feature doesn't sound like fun
# [12:22] <MikeSmith> fyi for anybody using w3c-test.org: I just spent an hour on there trying to unwedge apache problems due to debian upgrade bullshit and I have it running again but I very likely broke some other behavior of the web server in the process. So if you notice any problems please let me know.
# [12:23] <annevk> jgraham: parallelize all the things
# [12:24] <annevk> might be a problem even with that, you could encode data in output width/height
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# [13:02] <annevk> matjas: contacted DH
# [13:02] <annevk> matjas: cc'd you
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# [13:17] <annevk> Ms2ger: yo
# [13:17] * Ms2ger appears
# [13:18] <annevk> Is "The term context object means the object on which the algorithm (typically a method or attribute) being discussed was called. When the context object is unambiguous, the term can be omitted." clear enough you think?
# [13:18] <annevk> Ms2ger: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2013AprJun/0154.html
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# [13:19] <Ms2ger> Hm
# [13:19] <Ms2ger> A method/attribute isn't really an algorithm, though
# [13:20] <annevk> so just or the things?
# [13:21] <Ms2ger> "typically defining the behavior of a method or attribute" maybe?
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# [13:21] <annevk> "The term <dfn>context object</dfn> means the object on which the algorithm, method, or attribute being discussed was called."
# [13:21] <hallvors> context object === this object ?
# [13:21] <Ms2ger> Yeah
# [13:22] <hallvors> text is still a bit clumsy, in that you can not call an attribute
# [13:22] <jgraham> "accessed"
# [13:22] <annevk> thanks jgraham
# [13:23] <Ms2ger> But can you access an algorithm?
# [13:23] <hallvors> but if you mean the "this object" perhaps you could just reference a suitable definition in ES?
# [13:23] <hallvors> though they might not do one for properties..
# [13:23] <Ms2ger> Maybe ... on which an algorithm, method, or attribute getter or setter ...
# [13:23] <annevk> Ms2ger: yeah
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# [13:24] <Ms2ger> hallvors, well, it isn't a ES object :)
# [13:24] <annevk> JSIDL will make most of this obsolete
# [13:24] * hallvors lacks context for the context object discussion
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# [13:24] <annevk> hallvors: see the link earlier
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# [13:25] <jgraham> JSIDL: Pretending it's turtles^Wjavascript all the way down since 2013
# [13:27] <annevk> jgraham: not very different from pretending there's no hardware limits
# [13:28] <jgraham> Well sure, it might be a good pretense, I don't know
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# [13:29] <jgraham> Personally I am waiting for the time when we can design APIs where DOM objects hold references to JS objects
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# [13:30] <annevk> jgraham: like promises?
# [13:30] <Ms2ger> Is Safari going to implement?
# [13:30] <annevk> Ms2ger: implement what?
# [13:30] <Ms2ger> Promises
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# [13:31] <annevk> Dunno, I'd assume so
# [13:31] <jgraham> Doesn't Blink still have the same issue?
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# [13:32] <jgraham> So "is anyone other than Gecko going to implement DOM Promises", perhaps?
# [13:35] <annevk> Blink is implementing for sure
# [13:37] <jgraham> Interesting
# [13:38] <annevk> Microsoft will too
# [13:38] <jgraham> Last time I heard from abarth they had no plans to change thier memory management to deal with DOM->JS->DOM cycles
# [13:38] <jgraham> This was pre-blink of course
# [13:39] <annevk> abarth basically recommends implementing most directly in JS
# [13:39] <annevk> which makes sense, as it'll end up there anyway
# [13:40] <jgraham> I guess that might solve the problem for them
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# [13:58] <hallvors> annevk: "The plan is for debugging tools to solve this." - don't forget that it's common for web apps to log errors happening client-side and send the details home
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# [15:26] <annevk> hallvors: if at the end of your chain of futures you use .chain(e => log(e)) you'll be fine
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# [15:27] <hallvors> OK
# [15:28] <annevk> sorry, .catch(...)
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# [15:43] <annevk5> marcosc: http://sysapps.github.io/sysapps/proposals/Contacts/Contacts.html is broken
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# [15:49] <marcosc> annevk: thanks, will fix
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# [15:51] <annevk> Timestamps indicate darobin was quickest, but slowest to appear in my inbox :/
# [15:51] <Ms2ger> He was first for me
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# [15:52] <Ms2ger> Then you, then Art
# [15:52] <darobin> there may be more replies to come
# [15:52] * Ms2ger replies
# [15:52] <annevk> Given the lag, yes
# [15:52] <darobin> Ms2ger hasn't responded yet, for instance
# [15:53] <annevk> I should have learned by now not to reply to those emails
# [15:53] <annevk> But every now and then...
# [15:53] <darobin> yeah so should I
# [15:53] <darobin> but then no one replies and it's not nice either
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# [15:58] <hallvors> guys, just relax and enjoy random syncronicity
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# [15:59] <annevk> hallvors: I think that's the problem, there'd be less 386 if I was relaxed
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# [16:19] <manu-db> darobin: HTML5 DOM question for you about the language associated with nodes. Does the document language expressed via the HTTP Header "Content-Language" get used by the DOM in any way? We're trying to figure out if the language specified in an HTTP Header is transferred in any way to a DOM environment.
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# [16:20] <manu-db> Hixie_: same question ^^
# [16:20] <manu-db> darobin, Hixie_: From a read of the spec, it doesn't look like it is... wondering if it's somewhere else in the spec.
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# [16:23] <Ms2ger> If neither the node nor any of the node's ancestors, including the root element,
# [16:23] <Ms2ger> have either attribute set, but there is a pragma-set default language set, then that
# [16:23] <Ms2ger> is the language of the node. If there is no pragma-set default language set, then
# [16:23] <Ms2ger> language information from a higher-level protocol (such as HTTP), if any, must be used as the
# [16:23] <Ms2ger> final fallback language instead. In the absence of any such language information, and in cases
# [16:23] <Ms2ger> where the higher-level protocol reports multiple languages, the language of the node is unknown,
# [16:23] <Ms2ger> and the corresponding language tag is the empty string.
# [16:23] <manu-db> Yes, already read the spec...
# [16:23] <manu-db> Let me rephrase the question.
# [16:23] <GPHemsley> annevk: See also: https://github.com/GPHemsley/tiff-js , https://github.com/jnordberg/gif.js
# [16:24] <darobin> manu-db: my understanding is that it does; at the very least setting Content-Language through <meta> certainly works
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# [16:24] <manu-db> Is there a way for an HTML+JavaScript app to get the "Content-Language" http header.
# [16:24] <darobin> ah, that's a completely different question
# [16:24] <annevk> GPHemsley: cool, yeah we should do this, but we need to figure out a way to deal with the width/height thing
# [16:24] <manu-db> basically, I don't think that what's in the HTML spec is implementable in a JavaScript environment, is that true?
# [16:24] <Ms2ger> No
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# [16:24] <darobin> presumably you mean the one that was used for the current page?
# [16:24] <manu-db> and if so, what should we say in our specs when determining the language.
# [16:24] <Ms2ger> But you have to implement HTTP as well
# [16:24] <manu-db> darobin: yes
# [16:25] <manu-db> Ms2ger: what do you mean, "you have to implement HTTP as well"?
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# [16:26] <annevk> Man, scumbag language. Almost always wrong, yet keeps wasting a bunch of time with regards to how to set it declaratively and how its inheritance chain works.
# [16:26] <Ms2ger> HTML can be implemented in any language you want, but you can't necessarily pick just one section and implement it based on the rest of the platform
# [16:26] <manu-db> darobin, Ms2ger: Here's the actual issue - Microdata and RDFa processors written in JavaScript need to be able to get the language of the current node... if the language is set via "Content-Language", there is no way for them to get at that information... so, should the spec just say that all Microdata and RDFa implementations shouldn't pay attention to Content-Language?
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# [16:27] <annevk> manu-db: I think the theoretical answer is that such implementations would be non-conforming until that primitive is exposed.
# [16:27] <Ms2ger> I don't see why
# [16:28] <darobin> no no, you don't want to say that implementation should ignore Content-Language just because you don't happen to have that information right now
# [16:28] <manu-db> annevk: the only workaround we've found is for the processor to do an XHR request for the exact same document and get the Content-Language like that, but - super kludge (and you don't know if you're making the same request the browser did)
# [16:28] <darobin> that's one way
# [16:28] <manu-db> annevk: Is there a plan to get at the Content-Language primitive?
# [16:28] <darobin> manu-db: well you seem to have a use case :
# [16:28] <darobin> :)
# [16:29] <manu-db> darobin: This discussion is going in a direction I didn't want it to go in. :)
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# [16:29] <annevk> manu-db: there's an open bug for it
# [16:30] <annevk> manu-db: see DOM Standard's open bugs
# [16:30] <darobin> manu-db: can't you use XPath for that?
# [16:30] <manu-db> annevk: ok, thanks... reading now.
# [16:30] <manu-db> darobin: I'm not hip with the XPath - how would you do that?
# [16:30] <annevk> manu-db: it comes up every now and then, my main problem with doing it is that language seems so theoretical
# [16:31] * GPHemsley is still wondering what to do with http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/AAFC_Metadata_Application_Profile
# [16:31] <manu-db> annevk: Yeah, I have the same issue with it - don't know of a single case where this would be useful... but we have a LC comment that we need to answer in a fairly logical way.
# [16:31] <annevk> (other than as a rendering hint to work around Han unification, but we have heuristics for that)
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# [16:31] <darobin> ah, no, you can test for a language in XPath but not get one
# [16:31] <darobin> that's a shame
# [16:31] <annevk> (non-standardized heuristics, someone has to fix that)
# [16:32] <Ms2ger> darobin, don't need xpath for that either
# [16:32] <annevk> GPHemsley: seems fine
# [16:32] <annevk> GPHemsley: it's not spam
# [16:32] <darobin> isn't language also used to pick the proper glyph in parts of CJK?
# [16:33] <annevk> darobin: see my () comments above
# [16:33] <darobin> Ms2ger: yeah, CSS does that too. I thought XPath's lang() did more
# [16:33] <darobin> annevk: ah, duh, hadn't seen that line about Han unification
# [16:34] <GPHemsley> annevk: But does it belong on the wiki? And is it public domain?
# [16:35] <darobin> I guess language information could also be used for automatic translation and for spellchecking of forms/editable
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# [16:40] <manu-db> annevk, darobin, Ms2ger: Ok, so just to be clear - I'm going to respond with something to this effect: "At present, it is impossible for a JavaScript implementation to deterministically retrieve an HTML5 element's language if no language information is provided in the document, but the language was set via the Content-Language HTTP Header. These Javascript-based implementations will continue...
# [16:40] <manu-db> ...to be non-conforming in this specific case until the DOM exposes the language of an element [DOM bug #16489]. For this reason, document authors should specify the language of the document in the document itself to ensure that all HTML/RDFa implementations are capable of retrieving the language of the element." Is that response aligned with each of your thoughts on the matter?
# [16:41] <annevk> manu-db: yeah
# [16:41] <manu-db> annevk: ok, thanks - much appreciated. :)
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# [16:43] <darobin> manu-db: yeah that makes sense
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# [16:55] <manu-db> darobin, annevk: Outlined the use case for DOM element language property: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16489#c1
# [16:56] <darobin> Using HTTP for metadata sucks. Film at 11.
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# [17:15] <manu-db> Anyone here working at Google w/ the Gmail+schemas folks? You may want to tell them that their HTML+Microdata markup is so broken that it will be mis-interpreted horribly when processed by a conforming Microdata implementation: https://developers.google.com/gmail/schemas/embedding-schemas-in-emails -- or is putting a element with embedded <time> elements a "thing" in HTML5 now?
# [17:16] <manu-db> (that is, putting <time> in in the <head>)
# [17:16] <manu-db> (to see the problem, scroll down halfway on the page, click the "Microdata" example tab)
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# [17:21] * Ms2ger wonders about http://twitpic.com/cvmib9
# [17:21] <manu-db> darobin: actually, just to sanity check - there are no plans on supporting arbitrary flow/phrasing content in HEAD are there?
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# [17:24] <darobin> manu-db: you mean like <head>blah</head>?
# [17:24] <manu-db> darobin: I mean, specifically: <head><time .../></head>
# [17:25] <manu-db> (like what they're doing in Gmail now)
# [17:25] <darobin> mmmm, not that I know of, no
# [17:25] <darobin> that would be... problematic, unless I'm missing something
# [17:25] <manu-db> darobin: I'll tell them to stop doing that, then.
# [17:25] <manu-db> the current algorithm will move that block into body, right?
# [17:26] <darobin> yeah
# [17:26] <darobin> unless there's something I'm not thinking of, <head> is really restricted
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# [17:42] <tantek> manu-db - you care about emails that are "Best Views In Gmail" ?
# [17:42] <tantek> "Best Viewed In Gmail"
# [17:42] <tantek> clearly we need buttons for that to embed in email signatures
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# [17:45] <manu-db> tantek: I don't quite understand your question. I care that Google is asking developers to create invalid markup. There's nothing that specifically limits that usage to Gmail. It could work with any e-mail client that supports HTML content (which is most of them).
# [17:46] <manu-db> tantek: They also claimed that their partners didn't like Microdata, which is why they adopted JSON-LD as the primary way of marking up that data.
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# [17:47] <tantek> Google is suggesting invalid markup in email? Tell me again about how often HTML email validates.
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# [17:49] <manu-db> tantek: Well in this particular case, the markup could be moved around by the HTML processing algorithm in such a way that the Microdata expresses something completely broken (like if they did <title itemtype="..."> ... </title>
# [17:49] <manu-db> (meaning, what the developer thinks the markup means is going to be interpreted by a Microdata processor in the wrong way)
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# [17:51] <manu-db> tantek: Guidance to developers should really be - "just put it in the body"
# [17:51] <manu-db> tantek: but they probably didnt' want to do that because they wanted the JSON-LD and Microdata to look the same.
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# [19:13] * GPHemsley wonders why Ms2ger thinks the Mozilla HTML5 bug doesn't serve a purpose
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# [19:16] <Ms2ger> Do you have any?
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# [19:16] <GPHemsley> that's a personal question
# [19:16] <GPHemsley> ;)
# [19:17] <GPHemsley> but yeah, isn't it used as a tracking bug for all the other bugs? it's a good way (in theory) to keep track of all the HTML spec-related bugs in one place
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# [19:18] <GPHemsley> particularly because it's one of the blockers for the living standards bug
# [19:18] <GPHemsley> s/particularly because it's/it's also/
# [19:18] <Ms2ger> There's way too many such bugs to have them all tracked that way
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# [19:20] <GPHemsley> well, this tends to be a meta bug to track meta bugs, IIUC
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# [20:08] <GPHemsley> (annevk:) (In reference to bz's WebAppSec post which I didn't get CC'd on) <object> is a hybrid element that could be any one of image, audio/video, or plugin contexts, and the spec says that.
# [20:09] <GPHemsley> I don't think it's a nested browsing context, but I could be wrong
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# [20:09] <GPHemsley> (I'm not on the WebAppSec mailing list)
# [20:11] <GPHemsley> oh, apparently <object> is actually an image, a nested browsing, or a plugin context
# [20:11] <GPHemsley> spec doesn't mention audio/video
# [20:12] <GPHemsley> but it seems the <object> definition could use some updating to tie in better with mimesniff (though admittedly mimesniff is not in the best state to be tied in with yet)
# [20:13] * GPHemsley needs to get things out of his head and into the spec
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# [22:07] <Hixie_> anyone understand https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21870 ?
# [22:07] <Ms2ger> Sure
# [22:08] <Ms2ger> Look at the "Content attributes:" part of the green box
# [22:08] <Hixie_> yeah?
# [22:08] <Hixie_> what about it?
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# [22:08] <Ms2ger> Last line only has the name, no description
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# [22:09] <Hixie_> under <menu> ?
# [22:10] <Ms2ger> No, button
# [22:10] <Hixie_> oohhhhhhh
# [22:10] <Hixie_> thanks
# [22:10] <Ms2ger> Np
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# [22:10] <Ms2ger> You should really start looking at the links ;)
# [22:11] <Hixie_> i do...... i swear
# [22:11] <Hixie_> sometimes
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# [22:15] <jgraham> Just upgraded critic on critic.hoppipolla.co.uk
# [22:15] <jgraham> It is possible that breakage has occured; please report any issues
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# [22:33] <Hixie_> mounir: ping https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11937#c14
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# [23:34] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: For future reference, what's the quickest way to get your attention on something? (Choices include IRC, e-mail, bug, skywriting, etc.)
# [23:35] <Hixie_> IRC if i'm around
# [23:35] <Hixie_> e-mail direct to ian@hixie.ch (not cc'ed to a mailing list) if i'm not
# [23:36] <Hixie_> if you need to catch me when i'm not working, g+ is a good way to get me too
# [23:36] <GPHemsley> heh... when are you not working?
# [23:36] <Hixie_> like last month :-)
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# [23:36] <GPHemsley> ah, ok
# [23:37] <GPHemsley> and I can judge whether you're around on IRC by whether you're "away"?
# [23:37] <Hixie_> no
# [23:37] <Hixie_> i'm always /away :-(
# [23:37] <GPHemsley> oh
# [23:37] <Hixie_> i use it to track what people are saying in other channels
# [23:37] <GPHemsley> how does that work?
# [23:38] <Hixie_> i have a bunch of things that cause irssi to add stuff to the away log
# [23:38] <Hixie_> like if anyone says "hixie"
# [23:38] <Hixie_> and then every now and then i look at hte away log
# [23:38] <Hixie_> but i can't do that if i'm not /away as far as i can tell
# [23:38] <GPHemsley> I see... that seems rather hackish
# [23:39] * GPHemsley uses X-Chat
# [23:39] <Hixie_> very hackish
# [23:39] <GPHemsley> but anyway, since you're here now
# [23:39] <Hixie_> anyway, you can tell if i'm on irc by pinging me and seeing if i respond
# [23:39] <GPHemsley> what were your reservations about defining "resource" again?
# [23:40] <Hixie_> dunno how to do it well
# [23:40] <GPHemsley> what were the consequences of doing it poorly, again?
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# [23:43] <Hixie_> depends on how it's used
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# [23:44] <Hixie_> if you say "a resource is an apple" and somewhere else you say "browsers much support downloading resources" then you've just required that browsers support downloading physical objects
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# [23:49] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: and if I stick to the digital realm with something like "a resource is a container of data, often represented as a byte sequence, that may have one or more items of metadata associated with it"?
# [23:50] <Hixie_> so a bucket with dictionaries in it is a resource? :-)
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# [23:52] <GPHemsley> "...a digital container of data..."?
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# [23:53] <Hixie_> so when i hold an apple in my hand? :-P
# [23:53] * GPHemsley slaps Hixie_ with a circa 2003 trout
# [23:53] <Hixie_> :-P
# [23:54] <GPHemsley> I will force user agents to download your hand if you don't watch out
# [23:55] <GPHemsley> in other news, do you have any opinion on codifying these other contexts? http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Contexts
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# [23:56] <GPHemsley> I want to make sniffing talk only about contexts
# [23:56] <GPHemsley> and have each context have its own sniffing algorithm
# [23:56] <GPHemsley> and then not have any "generic" or "general" or "default" sniffing algorithms
# [23:59] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: ^^
# [23:59] <Hixie_> i'm reading, i'm reading :-P
# [23:59] <Hixie_> patience boy :-P
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# [23:59] <GPHemsley> ah, I always worry about you disappearing :P
# [23:59] <Hixie_> a fair concern
# Session Close: Fri Jun 07 00:00:00 2013

The end :)