/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-06-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jun 10 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  9. # [00:15] <KevinMarks> what was that site that microsoft set up to plead with devs to not just use webkit prefixes? something with a .ie
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  33. # [01:40] <Yitro> KevinMarks, http://www.modern.ie ?
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  52. # [02:31] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: bugzilla.validator.nu unresponsive
  53. # [02:31] <MikeSmith> or responding only very slowly
  54. # [02:32] <MikeSmith> "Remote DOM Community Group"?
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  56. # [02:32] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/community/blog/2013/06/09/proposed-group-remote-dom-community-group/
  57. # [02:32] <MikeSmith> [[Similarly to how the Shadow DOM paved the way for custom elements using web technologies, a “Remote DOM” could allow display of portions of the web app to be displayed on “remote” (i.e. “external”) devices, such as screens, Smart TVs, etc.
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  84. # [04:19] <MikeSmith> help me out here
  85. # [04:20] <MikeSmith> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/named-character-references.html#entity-copy-legacy
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  87. # [04:20] <MikeSmith> that means the spec requires "&copy" (without the semicolon) to be displayed as U+000A9 (the copyright symbol), right?
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  89. # [04:23] <annevk> MikeSmith: might depend on the context
  90. # [04:23] <MikeSmith> k
  91. # [04:24] <annevk> MikeSmith: actually, testing <body title=&copy>test&copytest that seems to be what it means
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  94. # [04:25] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah, and in stuff like href='http://example.org/demo?id=hello&copy=1&world=fun' too
  95. # [04:26] <MikeSmith> anywhere actually
  96. # [04:26] <MikeSmith> regardless of the context, I think
  97. # [04:26] <MikeSmith> as far as the parser behavior goes
  98. # [04:28] <annevk> MikeSmith: so actually
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  100. # [04:28] <annevk> MikeSmith: "If the character reference is being consumed as part of an attribute, and the last character matched is not a U+003B SEMICOLON character (;), and the next character is either a U+003D EQUALS SIGN character (=) or an alphanumeric ASCII character, then, for historical reasons, all the characters that were matched after the U+0026 AMPERSAND character (&) must be unconsumed, and nothing is returned."
  101. # [04:29] <annevk> MikeSmith: so <body title=&copys> has a title of "&copys"
  102. # [04:29] <annevk> and not "©s"
  103. # [04:30] <MikeSmith> hmm OK
  104. # [04:30] <MikeSmith> I missed the part about the equals sign
  105. # [04:30] <MikeSmith> ah yeah, "alphanumeric ASCII character" too
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  108. # [04:34] <MikeSmith> shit now I have to scribe
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  115. # [04:57] <annevk> did you give the person asking a shit-bow?
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  122. # [05:14] <MikeSmith> man I didn't do a good job of scribing that
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  127. # [05:51] <annevk> Do we have anything else besides WebSocket with regards to streaming?
  128. # [05:51] <annevk> Oh doh, EventSource
  129. # [05:53] <annevk> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Streams ...
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  158. # [07:31] <JonathanNeal> So, <hn> elements section content by nature, correct?
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  199. # [09:09] <SteveF> JonathanNeal: yup
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  221. # [10:07] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: seems to work now but slowly
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  224. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah very slowly
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  231. # [10:17] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it should now be better for a little while again
  232. # [10:17] <hsivonen> the validator process would benefit from running on Heroku-like infrastructure
  233. # [10:18] <hsivonen> but I don't want the DMCA exposure of hosting it in the U.S.
  234. # [10:18] * Joins: SimonSapin (~simon@207.218.72.65)
  235. # [10:19] <hsivonen> and European companies seem to be too incompetent to come up with something like Heroku
  236. # [10:19] <Ms2ger> It's already hosted on the NSA servers too
  237. # [10:19] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: thanks I just tried again and it's better and I'll take advantage of it to update a few bugs :-)
  238. # [10:19] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: I don't mean in terms of NSA exposure. I mean in terms of the public U.S. legal system.
  239. # [10:20] * Joins: richt (~richt@125.130.85.40)
  240. # [10:20] <Ms2ger> (Just joking about the NSA now, because everyone will have forgotten next month)
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  242. # [10:29] <hsivonen> If I decided to pay for a separate bugzilla server, what guide should I follow to set up bugzilla in such a way that getting security updates works?
  243. # [10:32] <hsivonen> oh. awesome. We don't seem to fire DOMContentLoaded for XSLT-generated docs
  244. # [10:32] <hsivonen> bug or feature?
  245. # [10:33] <darobin> I would assume that no one knows :)
  246. # [10:33] * Joins: Bert3D (~bert3d@host86-150-199-119.range86-150.btcentralplus.com)
  247. # [10:34] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: run Debian stable on the server you use for bugzilla?
  248. # [10:34] <hsivonen> my patch starts accidentally firing DOMFrameContentLoaded for the XSLT source docs
  249. # [10:34] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: do they backport patches?
  250. # [10:34] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: do I get an ancient Bugzilla?
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  255. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: current Debian stable has version 4.2.5 I think
  256. # [10:35] <hsivonen> Gecko also has a bug when it comes to sizing the view port for an XSLT-generated doc in an iframe
  257. # [10:35] * Joins: Bert3D (~bert3d@host86-150-199-119.range86-150.btcentralplus.com)
  258. # [10:35] <Ms2ger`> Yay, XSLT
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  260. # [10:36] <hsivonen> my problem: I don't forget to test XSLT
  261. # [10:36] * Joins: Bert3D (~bert3d@host86-150-199-119.range86-150.btcentralplus.com)
  262. # [10:36] <Ms2ger`> No good deed goes unpunished
  263. # [10:36] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I don't know how Debian handles patches but I think stable gets regular security-patch updates
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  265. # [10:36] <darobin> wait, you mean you've made it so that the xml-stylesheet PI fires DOMFrameContentLoaded?
  266. # [10:37] <darobin> somehow I find that very funny
  267. # [10:37] <darobin> not entirely sure why
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  270. # [10:37] <Ms2ger`> darobin, you're French, and drunk? I dunno
  271. # [10:38] <jgraham> darobin: Not enough coffee? Too much coffee?
  272. # [10:38] * Joins: bert3d (~bert3d@host86-150-199-119.range86-150.btcentralplus.com)
  273. # [10:38] <darobin> I opt for jgraham's explanation
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  275. # [10:39] <darobin> maybe the last shreds of sanity I had has finally evaporated
  276. # [10:39] * Joins: benbarnett (~Adium@195.81.245.98)
  277. # [10:40] <hsivonen> So since we have a pre-existing bug about XSLT not filing DOMContentLoaded, I think I'll take the EME approach and declare that fixing that bug is out of scope of the fix for the bug I'm trying to fix
  278. # [10:42] <darobin> when would XSLT fire DCL anyway? before or after transformation? (given that new resources are likely involved)
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  280. # [10:44] <jgraham> I would assume after
  281. # [10:44] <jgraham> OTOH, as we previously discussed, Gecko's XSLT suffers from trying to do things too well
  282. # [10:44] <hsivonen> darobin: after
  283. # [10:47] * Quits: skcin7 (~skcin7@c-68-38-156-213.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) (Quit: skcin7)
  284. # [10:48] <zcorpan> https://github.com/Masterminds/html5-php "This project initially began with the seemingly abandoned html5lib project original source. But after some initial refactoring work, we began a new parser."
  285. # [10:49] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@131-113-149-63.event.mita.keio.ac.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
  286. # [10:49] <zcorpan> hsivonen: have you opened a bug yet about abandoning the xslt code path (i.e. doing the wrong thing)?
  287. # [10:50] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@2001:200:167:1eee:b057:618a:2052:ea57)
  288. # [10:50] <jgraham> "The Tokenizer requests data off of the scanner, parses it, clasifies it, and sends it to an EventHandler. It is a recursive descent parser."
  289. # [10:50] <jgraham> I don't understand
  290. # [10:50] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I haven't
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  292. # [10:52] <zcorpan> hsivonen: are you going to? :-)
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  297. # [10:58] <zcorpan> "Processor Instructions: The HTML5 spec does not allow processor instructions. We do. Since this is a server-side library, we think this is useful."
  298. # [10:58] <hsivonen> zcorpan: not sure. I was planning on fixing XSLT as part of the planned but always deferred XML rewrite project
  299. # [10:59] <Ms2ger`> Processor, eh
  300. # [10:59] <hsivonen> Ms2ger`: HTML5 bans your processor from running instructions
  301. # [11:00] <jgraham> Unless Hollywood allow it
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  308. # [11:09] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: i think href="&copy=" is an error currently. "However, if this next character is in fact a U+003D EQUALS SIGN character (=), then this is a parse error, because some legacy user agents will misinterpret the markup in those cases."
  309. # [11:09] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-47-240.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  310. # [11:09] <zcorpan> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#tokenizing-character-references
  311. # [11:09] <hendry> anyone good with legalese? Just trying to write a phrase where I try explain: if you use my company's services without paying, we reserve the right to persue you for payment.
  312. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: oh
  313. # [11:11] <zcorpan> also, i don't have a strong opinion on the document conformance around ampersands. i have had strong opinions about how they should be parsed, though :-)
  314. # [11:12] <zcorpan> http://html5.org/r/7679 is the change
  315. # [11:14] * zcorpan commented in the bug
  316. # [11:18] <hendry> oh crap, wrong channel
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  318. # [11:23] * Joins: marcdm (~marcdm@72.27.35.3)
  319. # [11:24] <marcdm> Hello sleeping people and those that are awake. i'm seeking some answers regarding the new API for html5lib-python can anyone help?
  320. # [11:25] <jgraham> Sure
  321. # [11:25] <marcdm> thanks jgraham.
  322. # [11:25] <marcdm> I'm seeking to modify bleach for my own purposes, but I can't seem to understand one or 2 little things about the new API....
  323. # [11:26] <marcdm> 1. how would I access Element.type and ...
  324. # [11:26] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: thanks fur the big comment
  325. # [11:27] <jgraham> marcdm: Which "API" do you mean? The one for the tree of elements that you get after parsing? Or something else?
  326. # [11:27] <marcdm> yes jgraham
  327. # [11:27] <marcdm> 2. If I want to modify the tree, say I want to make changes to the list I get from .get_children(), which docs should I read for how i can make a new tree or modify it inplace
  328. # [11:27] <zcorpan> hmm, seems i messed up with the anolis .tail fix
  329. # [11:28] <zcorpan> File "build/bdist.macosx-10.8-intel/egg/anolislib/processes/filter.py", line 32, in filter
  330. # [11:28] <zcorpan> TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for +: 'NoneType' and 'NoneType'
  331. # [11:28] <marcdm> the real problem is that in bleach they do an in-place modification using a while loop through tree.childNodes
  332. # [11:28] <jgraham> Right, so now html5lib itself doesn't actually have any built-in tree representation. It just outputs a tree in an existing format
  333. # [11:29] <jgraham> Before it had this built-in "simpletree" thing, that wasn't really supposed to be production-quality
  334. # [11:29] <marcdm> so I'm really just at the mercy of what I can get from ElementTree
  335. # [11:29] <jgraham> So the new default is to use ElementTree
  336. # [11:29] <jgraham> Which is in the stdlib
  337. # [11:30] <marcdm> ah, and the bleach guys implemented their algorithm using the simpletree API
  338. # [11:30] <jgraham> Yes, I think they did
  339. # [11:30] <marcdm> uphill task. changing into 2nd gear.
  340. # [11:31] <jgraham> So, if I understand the situation with bleach right, they need to rework their use of html5lib to use ElementTree
  341. # [11:31] <marcdm> and I think the easiest thing might be to implement a fake simpletree over elementTree to provide those attributes they want
  342. # [11:31] <jgraham> That might be simple, but it doesn't sound like a great fix.
  343. # [11:32] <marcdm> totally agreed.
  344. # [11:32] <marcdm> I'm looking at the faulty code now, wanting to run it in Py3.2 on Wheezy
  345. # [11:32] <jgraham> I haven't looked closely at bleach, but I wouldn't have thought it was hard to make it work with ElementTree
  346. # [11:33] <marcdm> well, since I didn't quite understand how html5lib works, I wasn't quite sure what to expect from the code.
  347. # [11:33] * Joins: hasather_ (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no)
  348. # [11:35] <jgraham> So it looks like it's just linkify that needs to be updated?
  349. # [11:35] <marcdm> jgraham, just to confirm, parser.parseFragment(text) produces a regular ElementTree.Element right?
  350. # [11:35] <marcdm> yup.
  351. # [11:35] <jgraham> I think it can return a list of elements
  352. # [11:35] <marcdm> more specifically, linkify_nodes within linkify
  353. # [11:35] * Joins: SimonSapin (~simon@207.218.72.65)
  354. # [11:36] <jgraham> For cases like "<div>foo</div><div>bar</div>"
  355. # [11:36] <jgraham> But that is very much from memory
  356. # [11:36] <marcdm> huh?
  357. # [11:37] <marcdm> the tree is passed in and modified in-place... heading to the etree docs
  358. # [11:38] * Quits: hasather_ (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  359. # [11:38] <jgraham> Oh
  360. # [11:38] * Quits: SimonSapin (~simon@207.218.72.65) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  361. # [11:38] <jgraham> Not a list, a custom element type
  362. # [11:38] <jgraham> In [1]: import html5lib
  363. # [11:38] <jgraham> In [2]: p = html5lib.HTMLParser()
  364. # [11:38] <jgraham> In [3]: p.parseFragment("<div>foo</div><div>bar</div>")
  365. # [11:38] <jgraham> Out[3]: <Element u'DOCUMENT_FRAGMENT' at 0x371c300>
  366. # [11:38] <marcdm> yup
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  368. # [11:39] <marcdm> when I try to getchildren on that, which is what linkify_nodes wants to do, I get the 1st div tho
  369. # [11:39] <marcdm> I mean I get the divs
  370. # [11:39] <zcorpan> how do i sync my anolis fork?
  371. # [11:40] <jgraham> yeah, just doing list(p.parseFragment("<div>foo</div><div>bar</div>")) works
  372. # [11:40] <marcdm> (facepalm)
  373. # [11:40] <zcorpan> Ms2ger`: ^
  374. # [11:40] * zcorpan switching trains
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  376. # [11:41] <Ms2ger`> hg pull -u https://zcorpan@bitbucket.org/ms2ger/anolis && hg push https://zcorpan@bitbucket.org/zcorpan/anolis I guess
  377. # [11:41] <marcdm> try this (p.parseFragment("http://foo.co and <div>bar</div> you@me.us")
  378. # [11:42] <marcdm> syntax corrections where necessary
  379. # [11:43] <jgraham> Yeah, that is going to be harder I guess
  380. # [11:45] <marcdm> tree.text gives me the text before the div, but I haven't gotten at the text after the div yet
  381. # [11:45] <jgraham> It is the .tail of the last element
  382. # [11:46] <marcdm> so I'd want t a list containing the .text of the parent, the children and the .tail of each child?
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  384. # [11:47] <marcdm> heading to look at simpletree code
  385. # [11:47] <marcdm> .itertext?
  386. # [11:48] <jgraham> Iterates over all the text in a subtree
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  388. # [11:48] <jgraham> Which might not be enough for you, since you also need to know what the parent element was
  389. # [11:49] <marcdm> well, the bleach code wraps all things in a div (I think), so we can control the parent that way
  390. # [11:50] <jgraham> Right, but I mean if you have <div>foo <span>bar <i>http://example.com</i></span> baz</div>, you need to know that the link should be a child of the <i>
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  392. # [11:51] <marcdm> if I remember right, BeautifuSoup gives us some kind of "node" iterator that treats bits of text as TextNodes.... I need something like that
  393. # [11:51] <marcdm> yeah, I know what you mean, I realized it wasn't a complete solution
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  396. # [11:59] <zcorpan> Ms2ger`: thanks. new pr coming up
  397. # [12:00] <Ms2ger`> Np
  398. # [12:00] * Ms2ger` is now known as Ms2ger
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  400. # [12:01] <zcorpan> https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/anolis/pull-request/9/turns-out-none-none-throws/diff
  401. # [12:02] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
  402. # [12:03] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, thanks
  403. # [12:03] * Ms2ger kicks .tail
  404. # [12:03] <zcorpan> yeah, seriously. it shouldn't be this hard to remove an element
  405. # [12:05] <Ms2ger> I kinda liked simpletree ;)
  406. # [12:05] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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  408. # [12:10] <marcdm> simpletree was nice for what we're trying to do here, _read_ html. etree is awesome when you trying to write x/html
  409. # [12:13] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
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  411. # [12:25] <marcdm> I think I sufficiently understand etree api to reimplement the faulty parts of bleach. thanks for your help jgraham
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  414. # [12:30] <zcorpan> hmm. --w3c-compat turns on lots of xref elements. but turning it off takes away features like [STATUS], <!--logo-->, etc. maybe we should just trim the list of xref elements for w3c mode as well
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  417. # [12:34] <Ms2ger> --w3c-compat-substitutions?
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  421. # [12:38] <zcorpan> ah, that seems to do what i want
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  435. # [12:46] <hsivonen> :-( MDN says the load event is defined by DOM Level 3
  436. # [12:46] <hsivonen> it's a wiki, I know
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  439. # [12:50] <Ms2ger> Yeah, they aren't terribly up to date
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  442. # [12:57] <marcdm> I have a fairly blonde question, does html5lib-python always return {http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml} as the namespace for html files?
  443. # [12:58] <marcdm> when using etree
  444. # [12:59] <SimonSapin> marcdm: yes, for HTML elements. For SVG elements you will get the SVG namespace, etc. This is per the spec
  445. # [12:59] <marcdm> what about the newer html elements like aside, section, audio and video?
  446. # [13:00] <zcorpan> why does anolis when not in --w3c-compat mode turn <code> into <a><code> but in --w3c-compat mode <code><a>?
  447. # [13:00] <SimonSapin> I think there is a list of special cases like SVG and MathML that change the namespace, but everything else defaults to the XHTML namespace.
  448. # [13:00] <zcorpan> the former gives blue underlines :-(
  449. # [13:01] <zcorpan> which isn't fixable with css afaict
  450. # [13:01] <marcdm> SimonSapin: thanks.
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  453. # [13:21] <hsivonen> looking forward to UTF-16-encoded XSLT
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  455. # [13:23] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, there's an option for that :)
  456. # [13:24] <Ms2ger> --w3c-compat-xref-a-placement
  457. # [13:24] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: yeah, i noticed. but what's the point?
  458. # [13:24] <Ms2ger> 301 gsnedders
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  462. # [13:36] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: what's the current thinking on exposing an interface object on the global object when speccing a new WebIDL interface?
  463. # [13:37] <Ms2ger> In general, just expose it
  464. # [13:38] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: what's the mechanism in our code that makes an interface exposed?
  465. # [13:39] <Ms2ger> Somewhere in classinfo, I think. There's a few ways to get exposed
  466. # [13:39] <Ms2ger> * webidl interface without [NoInterfaceObject]
  467. # [13:39] <Ms2ger> * XPIDL interface that starts with nsIDOM
  468. # [13:39] <Ms2ger> * XPIDL interface that starts with nsI and has classinfo for some reason
  469. # [13:40] <hsivonen> thanks
  470. # [13:40] <Ms2ger> I *think* that's all of them
  471. # [13:40] <hsivonen> I have been tasked with zapping interface objects that shouldn't be exposed
  472. # [13:41] <Ms2ger> The fun part is that a lot of the b2g stuff uses xpidl + classinfo
  473. # [13:41] <hsivonen> looks like most items I need to zap are XUL or B2G
  474. # [13:42] <hsivonen> yay B2G for moz prefix proliferation
  475. # [13:42] <Ms2ger> Yeah, they want to ship :/
  476. # [13:42] <zcorpan> presto mostly had the opposite problem, we didn't expose enough
  477. # [13:43] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: they could ship without prefixes...
  478. # [13:43] <hsivonen> I guess my next step is taking the list from http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/annotate/tip/dom/tests/mochitest/general/test_interfaces.html and checking it against Blink, WebKit, Presto and Trident
  479. # [13:46] <Ms2ger> Note that it doesn't actually fail if there's interfaces in there that aren't exposed
  480. # [13:47] <Ms2ger> Say, if you forget to remove MozBlobBuilder
  481. # [13:58] <hsivonen> clearly, for a DOM peer, I know quite little about the DOM
  482. # [13:58] <Ms2ger> You know about XSLT ;)
  483. # [13:58] <hsivonen> why doesn't for (var name in window) {...} not show any interface objects?
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  485. # [13:59] <hsivonen> s/not//
  486. # [14:00] <Ms2ger> w(Object.getOwnPropertyDescriptor(window, "XMLHttpRequest").enumerable)
  487. # [14:00] <Ms2ger> log: false
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  489. # [14:00] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: I suspected there was a concept like that
  490. # [14:01] <hsivonen> but of course it's useful that personalbar is enumerable, for instance
  491. # [14:01] <Ms2ger> These BarProps are lovely
  492. # [14:03] <Ms2ger> Maybe you want Object.getOwnPropertyNames(window)
  493. # [14:07] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: indeed, the test case lists a number of names that aren't actually exposed on window
  494. # [14:07] <hsivonen> in the sense that (foo in window) would be true
  495. # [14:08] <Ms2ger> Any others than HTMLCommandElement and MozBlobBuilder?
  496. # [14:09] <hsivonen> SVGStylable, SVGTransformable, MozMobileCellInfo, etc.
  497. # [14:09] <hsivonen> many others
  498. # [14:10] <Ms2ger> Mm
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  504. # [14:17] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: awesome. there are also interfaces that aren't exposed but aren't listed in the test case
  505. # [14:17] * hsivonen wonders what the test case is good for
  506. # [14:17] <smaug____> hmm
  507. # [14:18] <smaug____> hsivonen: exposed in which way?
  508. # [14:18] <Ms2ger> Hmm
  509. # [14:18] <Ms2ger> I guess we don't put WebIDL-only interfaces on Ci
  510. # [14:18] <smaug____> hsivonen: I added the test to make it less likely to expose random stuff to web
  511. # [14:18] <hsivonen> smaug____: listed by Object.getOwnPropertyNames(window)
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  513. # [14:19] <smaug____> the test was added before we started to webidlfy stuff
  514. # [14:19] <hsivonen> smaug____: so the test only cares about nsI stuff getting accidentally exposed, it seems
  515. # [14:19] <smaug____> and nsIDOM
  516. # [14:19] <smaug____> but I'm not sure about Webidl stuff
  517. # [14:20] <smaug____> (nsI and nsIDOM are handled very differently in this kind of case)
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  526. # [14:55] <hsivonen> hmm. no Object.getOwnPropertyNames() in Chrome
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  528. # [14:56] <jgraham> Really?!
  529. # [14:58] <hsivonen> oh, it's uneval that's missing
  530. # [14:58] * hsivonen thought everyone had uneval
  531. # [14:58] <hsivonen> do I really have to write my own array serializer?
  532. # [14:58] <jgraham> JSON.stringify
  533. # [14:58] <hsivonen> thanks
  534. # [14:58] <Ms2ger> .toString()?
  535. # [14:59] <jgraham> Well if he wants something that will parse later with eval
  536. # [14:59] <jgraham> ... then that's probably a problem on its own
  537. # [14:59] <Ms2ger> Fair
  538. # [15:00] <jgraham> (I thought only gecko had uneval)
  539. # [15:00] <hsivonen> jgraham: so it seems
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  541. # [15:00] * Ms2ger had never heard of uneval
  542. # [15:00] <hsivonen> but how am I supposed to know that we're the abnormal ones
  543. # [15:01] <jgraham> Well to be fair with js, that's the common case :)
  544. # [15:02] <Ms2ger> The question is, is it an e4xism
  545. # [15:02] <jgraham> (you were the only ones with E4X and all the js 1.x stuff)
  546. # [15:02] <jgraham> (for various values of x)
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  548. # [15:02] <Ms2ger> We're planning to move to 1js, though, I hear
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  551. # [15:08] <darobin> JSON.stringify doesn't work on everything, though, obviously
  552. # [15:08] <darobin> in some cases IIRC you still need toSource(), but I think that's mostly for old Geckos
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  614. # [17:17] <Ms2ger> Mm, we're implementing WAP
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  619. # [17:22] <jgraham> But in good news, I guess my time machine works
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  621. # [17:24] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Bug or it didn't happen
  622. # [17:24] <Ms2ger> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=853715
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  643. # [18:19] <sangwhan_> Ms2ger: Does the fact that Opera has already done it make it hurt less?
  644. # [18:19] <Ms2ger> Opera did it first, eh
  645. # [18:20] <sangwhan_> Wait till you have to implement OMA DRM
  646. # [18:22] <Ms2ger> I don't think I want to know what that is
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  650. # [18:29] <sangwhan_> Looking at the commit, it's not _that_ bad :)
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  666. # [18:46] <KevinMarks> thanks Yitro - I used it in http://techcrunch.com/2013/06/09/how-apples-ios-fragmentation-problems-distort-design-thinking/
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  699. # [19:39] <rafaelw> Hixie: ping
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  745. # [20:09] <KevinMarks> was that an Exclusions demo in Safari?
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  769. # [20:46] <Ms2ger> zcorpan: can you look at bz's comment in https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=880997 please?
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  801. # [21:09] <Hixie> rafaelw: pong
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  811. # [21:31] <rafaelw> Hixie: can you read my last comment on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22185
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  830. # [22:14] <Hixie> rafaelw: looking...
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  832. # [22:17] <Hixie> rafaelw: as far as i can tell, your last comment and my last coment are orthogonal
  833. # [22:18] <rafaelw> Ok. can we take them one at a time?
  834. # [22:18] <rafaelw> Am I mis-reading the spec, or is it incorrect?
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  836. # [22:20] <Hixie> i don't think those are mutually exclusive :-)
  837. # [22:20] <Hixie> i don't think there's any doubt in anyone's mind that the jump to a code entry-point algorithm shouldn't call the mutation observers
  838. # [22:20] <Hixie> (at least, not unless it's the last script)
  839. # [22:20] <Hixie> the question is, should it even both calling it if it's the last script, and do you really want to remove the call to mutation observes in the parser
  840. # [22:22] <rafaelw> So I offered a proposal of a simple way to make the current spec accurate. Did my proposal remove the call to mutation observers from the parser?
  841. # [22:23] <Hixie> your proposal and your suggested changes were contradictory, so i wasn't sure what you intended, hence my follow-up questions
  842. # [22:24] <Hixie> (i don't have an opinion about what exactly should happen)
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  845. # [22:31] <rafaelw> Can you explain the contradiction?
  846. # [22:31] <rafaelw> There's a step in the text insertion mode that says to run a microtask checkpoint open reaching a </script>.
  847. # [22:32] <rafaelw> If my proposal changed that, it wasn't intentional.
  848. # [22:32] <rafaelw> hixie: ^^
  849. # [22:32] <Hixie> comment 18, right?
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  851. # [22:33] <Hixie> you say "should happen at two times", but neither of the times you list is the parser, but then your suggested chnanges don't change the parser
  852. # [22:33] <Hixie> this isn't a criticism or anything, i was (and am) just trying to make sure i do what you actually intended
  853. # [22:33] <rafaelw> I see.
  854. # [22:33] <rafaelw> You are correc.t
  855. # [22:33] <rafaelw> It should be "three times".
  856. # [22:33] <rafaelw> I can go back and clarify that.
  857. # [22:33] <Hixie> here's fine :-)
  858. # [22:34] <Hixie> how about the other thing? are we sure we want to fire mutation observers twice per task if the task fires two scripts synchronously, rather than just once at the end of the task?
  859. # [22:34] <rafaelw> This was debated at length when we designed mutation observers.
  860. # [22:34] <rafaelw> It was intentional.
  861. # [22:34] <Hixie> (as opposed to the example in comment 21, which is about firing them twice within a script (as per the spec now, which is bogus, we all agree) vs once at the end of a script)
  862. # [22:35] <rafaelw> Take the case of a click. If there are multiple handlers, and mutation observers registered, then the observers should go after *each* event handler, so that the next event handler sees a "stable" state of the world.
  863. # [22:36] <rafaelw> Is this the case you are referring to?
  864. # [22:36] <Hixie> yeah, that's a good example of it
  865. # [22:37] <Hixie> btw, what's the change in your proposal regarding "global script clean-up jobs" to do with?
  866. # [22:38] <rafaelw> I suppose you can look at that as orthogonal.
  867. # [22:38] <Hixie> k
  868. # [22:38] <rafaelw> It looked to me like that was added out of a misunderstanding of how microtask checkpoints should work.
  869. # [22:39] <Hixie> global script clean-up jobs are unrelated to microtask checkpoints, iirc
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  871. # [22:39] <rafaelw> Mutation Observers *is* a script clean-up job.
  872. # [22:40] <rafaelw> My point is that there are now two mechanims doing exactly the same thing.
  873. # [22:40] <rafaelw> You can make them be seperate, but it seems silly to me.
  874. # [22:40] <Hixie> you mean, they are in principle, or they are in concrete?
  875. # [22:40] <rafaelw> Principle.
  876. # [22:40] <rafaelw> And there are going to be more.
  877. # [22:41] <rafaelw> ECMAScript Object.observe callbacks, Promises, etc...
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  879. # [22:41] <Hixie> the global script clean-up jobs only run at the end of a script (every script, though whether that means nested ones or not is not clear yet)
  880. # [22:41] <rafaelw> I was hoping that we could end up with one "period to run stuff that needs to put the world back in order" thingie.
  881. # [22:41] <Hixie> they don't run e.g. before scripts run in the parser
  882. # [22:41] * Parts: jreading (~Adium@204.56.125.50)
  883. # [22:41] <Hixie> or after non-script tasks
  884. # [22:41] <Hixie> (like parsing)
  885. # [22:42] <rafaelw> Is their any client for end-of-script cleanup jobs other than FileURLs?
  886. # [22:43] <Hixie> not as far as i know of, currently
  887. # [22:43] <Hixie> one key thing is that end-of-script cleanup jobs cannot run scripts of their own
  888. # [22:43] <Hixie> since their ordering isn't defined
  889. # [22:44] <rafaelw> So I'm confused by your message of "leave FileURL out of this" vs "How does script-clean-up fit into all of this"
  890. # [22:45] <Hixie> "this" in the first of those is the bug, "this" in the second is your specific proposal
  891. # [22:45] <rafaelw> I see. Well the I propose we simply remove the script clean up language.
  892. # [22:46] <rafaelw> Actually, I retract everything I said about script-clean-up.
  893. # [22:46] <Hixie> k :-)
  894. # [22:47] <rafaelw> If it only has one client and the requirements aren't clean, then I guess I don't really care about it.
  895. # [22:47] <rafaelw> (Although it seems odd to me to have language about it in that case)
  896. # [22:47] <Hixie> the requirements are clean, they're just different than microtassks
  897. # [22:47] <rafaelw> Ok, how about if I (on the bug):
  898. # [22:48] <rafaelw> 1) Clarify that microtask checkpoint should be run at three times
  899. # [22:48] <rafaelw> 2) Clarify my proposal to ignore the script clean-up.
  900. # [22:49] <Hixie> don't worry about it, i've already edited the spec as you were suggesting
  901. # [22:49] <Hixie> i'm committing the change now
  902. # [22:50] <rafaelw> Ok. Thank you.
  903. # [22:50] <Hixie> np
  904. # [22:50] <Hixie> (unfortunately for my credibility, the change also includes some unrelated editorial fixes to the script clean-up job stuff. but we'll ignore that.)
  905. # [22:51] <Hixie> at least this is an easy one. the thing about the parser's namespace-sensitivity is distressingly less so.
  906. # [22:52] <rafaelw> Good topic.
  907. # [22:52] <rafaelw> So WebKit/blink already implemented what adam proposed.
  908. # [22:52] <rafaelw> Aside from the conflict about what the author most likely meant,
  909. # [22:53] <rafaelw> One main motivation is that ambiguity like that in the parser as a source of crashers that the security folks found.
  910. # [22:53] <Hixie> there's cases where i don't even understand what we can do. e.g. "If the stack of open elements has a p element in button scope, then act as if an end tag with the tag name "p" had been seen." - what if there's a, <svg:p> on the stack, won't that close that instead?
  911. # [22:53] <rafaelw> s/as/was
  912. # [22:53] <Hixie> i don't understand why it caused crashes
  913. # [22:54] <Hixie> the spec wasn't ambiguous, it was (is) just weird in certain cases, as far as i can tell
  914. # [22:55] <rafaelw> The main problem is a conceptual one inside the implementation of the parser.
  915. # [22:55] <rafaelw> As I mentioned in the bug, when a token is encountered, it's namespace goes from abstract to concrete.
  916. # [22:56] <rafaelw> The parser code is written with the assumption that end tags match start tags of the same namespace.
  917. # [22:57] <Hixie> ah, that's definitely not a good assumption
  918. # [22:57] <rafaelw> You are suggesting that they should be tolerant of this, but it's just not how the code was written.
  919. # [22:57] <Hixie> in particular, end tags don't have a namespace
  920. # [22:57] <Hixie> tags in general don't have a namespace, in fact
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  925. # [23:01] <rafaelw> I don't think that matters.
  926. # [23:01] <rafaelw> It just is the case that we fixed a bunch of crashers related to invalid assumptions in the parser code which generally takes the view I'm describing.
  927. # [23:02] <rafaelw> And based on my discussions with Mozilla re:<template> parsing, I suspect their code is similarly structured.
  928. # [23:03] <rafaelw> My point is that even if I agreed with your view that <foreignObject></div> should match an <svg:div>, I'd have a hard time landing that patch.
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  931. # [23:07] <Hixie> i don't understand how you assign a namespace to a tag
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  945. # [23:41] <Hixie> GPHemsley: (btw, if you could avoid cc'ing other lists that'd be great, because it causes all kinds of confusing thread fragmentation. e.g. i can't make heads or tails of your subthread that got cc'ed to apps-discuss.)
  946. # [23:41] <Hixie> GPHemsley: (though that could just be because the other guy only replied to you each time?)
  947. # [23:46] <Hixie> heycam|away: any feedback on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22102 ?
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The end :)