/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-06-24 / end

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  93. # [08:33] <TabAtkins> zewt: You should see the spec for FFTactics, particularly the interactions of Quick and reaction abilities with the turn order.
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  114. # [09:29] <asmodai> Does Firefox' "show windows and tabs from last time" funtion the same as Chrome's "Continue where I left off", i.e. session cookies are kept after a browser restart?
  115. # [09:31] <zcorpan_> data:image/svg+xml,<svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" viewBox="-1 -1 2 2"><style>svg { background:url("") } </style><circle r="1"/></svg>
  116. # [09:32] <heycam> zcorpan_, that's fun
  117. # [09:32] <zcorpan_> looks like presto and gecko don't use the background
  118. # [09:32] <heycam> zcorpan_, doesn't seem to work in Firefox, but I wonder if the <svg> were inline whether we paint backgrounds there?
  119. # [09:32] <heycam> zcorpan_, oh but then url("") wouldn't be an SVG document anyway
  120. # [09:35] <asmodai> Mmm, so if we cannot use the mark session cookie to be deleted on browser restart, I wonder how we need to deal with this for our certificate/token functionality.
  121. # [09:42] <zcorpan_> does ie10 still not support data urls from the address bar?
  122. # [09:42] <zcorpan_> or is that on purpose?
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  131. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: fyi all the w3c vnu backends are now running under Java7
  132. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> for the last day or so
  133. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> with no apparent problems so far
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  137. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: about http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2013Jun/0174.html you're already working on a spec that relates to?
  138. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> (ViewportObserver API proposal)
  139. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> oh CSSOM View?
  140. # [10:22] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: right
  141. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> ok
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  143. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> is there some overlap with the thing in the Web Performance WG?
  144. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webperf/raw-file/tip/specs/ResourcePriorities/Overview.html
  145. # [10:25] <zcorpan_> maybe that's a different solution to the same use case
  146. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> ok
  147. # [10:25] <zcorpan_> i haven't looked into it yet
  148. # [10:26] <zcorpan_> i wonder what <svg lazyload> is supposed to do
  149. # [10:26] <zcorpan_> <script lazyload>? please no
  150. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> man the name "Resource Priorities" for that spec seems like not such a great choice
  151. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> oh I though it was just for images
  152. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> have they scope-creeped it out to everything else already?
  153. # [10:27] <zcorpan_> seems so
  154. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> geez
  155. # [10:27] <zcorpan_> or just applied it to all the tags that load something, and some others too
  156. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> oh man
  157. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> just now seeing the actual <script src="Analytics.js" lazyload ></script> in there
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  159. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> 974 ftw
  160. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> I don't remember anybody actually ever describing a problem around this for anything other than images
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  163. # [10:37] <zcorpan_> what's the current thinking on naming of methods with both singular and plural forms?
  164. # [10:38] <zcorpan_> e.g. elementFromPoint (already exists) and elementsFromPoint
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  177. # [11:18] <annevk> GPHemsley: I think the problem http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Contexts has now is that <object> is always object-src per CSP. So either HTML has something special for it sniffing-wise, or the table is simply wrong.
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  183. # [11:41] <annevk> Ms2ger: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=444380
  184. # [11:44] <zcorpan_> annevk: you should have said that you have authority because you're on the TAG :-)
  185. # [11:45] <zcorpan_> why is memory an issue for svg but not for html?
  186. # [11:47] <annevk> SVG files have a tendency to have most of their information in an attribute value...
  187. # [11:48] <annevk> I don't buy it would be twice the memory though. You'd just to design a better storage solution.
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  189. # [11:48] <annevk> I would buy that it sucks and maybe is not worth it...
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  192. # [12:03] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-annotation/2013Jun/0008.html may have been a bit much, but geez...
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  211. # [13:17] <MikeSmith> "Unfortunately, your comment about callback syntax is out of scope of this 3rd Last Call."
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  215. # [13:22] <Ms2ger> Don't worry, it'll be in scope for the fourth
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  224. # [13:40] <annevk> It seems we're implementing something much simpler anyway so maybe most of that work needs to ignored in the end anyway?
  225. # [13:43] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: how could you forget about <!DOCTYPE &amp;> & <!--&amp;--> & <?&amp;> & <!&amp;> & <p &amp;="foo"> & <foo&amp;> & <svg><![CDATA[&amp;]]></svg> & ..... ???
  226. # [13:43] <MikeSmith> heh
  227. # [13:43] <MikeSmith> I knew I shouldn't have responded to that message
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  237. # [14:17] <zcorpan_> hmmm. looks like Glenn made MediaList a constructor, but i see no discussion about that
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  239. # [14:20] <zcorpan_> and a MediaList object created with the constructor can't be used for anything
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  243. # [14:33] <zcorpan_> Ms2ger: poke https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/anolis/pull-request/10/use-for-the-toc-in-w3c_compat-since-csswgs/diff
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  255. # [14:56] <annevk> I'm flying to the Netherlands... "You are required to enter Advance Passenger Information (API) for your trip" I wonder what the Netherlands thinks they do not know about me...
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  258. # [14:59] <annevk> Following the link reveals nothing. klm.com is such a great website.
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  261. # [15:06] <Ms2ger> zcorpan_, gah.
  262. # [15:06] <Ms2ger> Later this week, I think
  263. # [15:06] * Joins: AladinBouzerd_ (~aladinbou@41.104.245.138)
  264. # [15:08] <zcorpan_> Ms2ger: great :-) i'm not in a rush, i was just looking through my open tabs
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  274. # [15:20] <zcorpan_> hmm, i tried to implement a new option for xref.py, but i get this error: anolis: error: unrecognized arguments: --xref-use-a
  275. # [15:21] <Ms2ger> Did you add it to ./anolis?
  276. # [15:23] <zcorpan_> aha. i didn't
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  284. # [15:44] <GPHemsley> annevk: <object> is complex, because it basically has to be sniffed twice.
  285. # [15:44] * Parts: jreading (~Adium@204.56.125.50)
  286. # [15:45] <GPHemsley> annevk: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#object-type-detection
  287. # [15:46] <Ms2ger> Yay, single-page
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  290. # [15:47] <GPHemsley> Ms2ger: Yeah, sorry
  291. # [15:47] * Ms2ger didn't click :)
  292. # [15:47] <GPHemsley> annevk: object-src really seems to be more suited towards the plugin type of <object>
  293. # [15:48] <GPHemsley> annevk: (And <applet> doesn't really need to be sniffed, because it's always Java.)
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  297. # [15:52] <zcorpan_> hmm, looks like i did a mistake. https://bitbucket.org/zcorpan/anolis/commits/featurebranches - how do i make the xref_use_a branch include only the last commit (compared to the default branch)?
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  302. # [15:56] <zcorpan_> Ms2ger: ^
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  304. # [15:57] * Ms2ger looks
  305. # [15:58] <Ms2ger> zcorpan_, so you want it on top of 5ce506b ?
  306. # [15:59] * yoav__ is now known as yoav_
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  308. # [16:00] <zcorpan_> Ms2ger: yeah, i guess. unless it's better if i sync with upstream first
  309. # [16:00] <Ms2ger> No, that's fine
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  311. # [16:01] <Ms2ger> hg up 5ce506b5da30d429083217fce4695013bf012a39
  312. # [16:01] <Ms2ger> hg branch <foo>
  313. # [16:02] <Ms2ger> hg di -r 0c807914e393f0bcd87da4f3779c20f6955e70bc:7890a059a0a30f4887cc4044587c5216f2120b1a | patch -p1
  314. # [16:02] <Ms2ger> hg comm -m "bar"
  315. # [16:02] <Ms2ger> I think
  316. # [16:02] <Ms2ger> And then strip the original
  317. # [16:03] <zcorpan_> <foo> should be something like xref_use_a_2 ?
  318. # [16:03] <Ms2ger> I suppose so, yes
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  320. # [16:03] <zcorpan_> ok, i'll try
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  323. # [16:06] <matjas> looks like pretty much all existing npm modules dealing with HTML entities are broken
  324. # [16:06] <annevk> GPHemsley: I guess what I'm saying is that the sniffing cannot be reconciled with CSP contexts and is sort of a separate thing later on
  325. # [16:07] <matjas> only 1 lib has the complete list of HTML5 entities as per http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/entities.json, and none of them support astral symbols at all
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  327. # [16:07] <matjas> may need to write my own
  328. # [16:07] <zcorpan_> Ms2ger: looks like it did the trick. thanks!
  329. # [16:07] <Ms2ger> Np
  330. # [16:07] <matjas> </rant>
  331. # [16:08] <GPHemsley> annevk: For <object> or for everything? I think we could make it work, if we allow context switching.
  332. # [16:08] <GPHemsley> annevk: We'll likely need it for the browsing context anyway.
  333. # [16:10] <annevk> GPHemsley: I guess the alternative is that you say <object> uses the "<object> context" which implies object-src for CSP purposes and complicated rules for sniffing purposes
  334. # [16:10] <annevk> GPHemsley: however, it's not entirely clear to me whether Fetch and sniffing ought to be merged in this way
  335. # [16:10] <annevk> GPHemsley: sniffing might actually be okay as a local per API endpoint affair
  336. # [16:11] <annevk> Hmm, although for images you always want to sniff... Ugh.
  337. # [16:11] <GPHemsley> right
  338. # [16:12] <annevk> Maybe some contexts should leave it up to the caller and others do it automatically?
  339. # [16:13] <annevk> E.g. for connect-src you want to leave it up to the caller... For object-src prolly too given the complexity.
  340. # [16:13] * Quits: AladinBouzerd (~aladinbou@41.104.99.40) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  341. # [16:13] <annevk> And also, we could leave it always up to the caller and define something like "image fetch" that does the right for images.
  342. # [16:17] <GPHemsley> I'm not clear on what the issue/potential conflict is here. The contexts are just a tunnel with which to travel when fetching a resource. It's OK if sniffing branches, because it's downstream from fetch.
  343. # [16:17] * Joins: eric_carlson (~eric@17.212.152.104)
  344. # [16:19] <GPHemsley> annevk: Oh, I see the issue. The "trigger" part. Hmm...
  345. # [16:19] <annevk> API, does a, Fetch (potentially blocked due to CSP), then potentially Sniff (depending on API), ...
  346. # [16:20] <GPHemsley> annevk: What are some of the possible APIs we're discussing here?
  347. # [16:20] <annevk> So CSP and Fetch need to become integrated, sniffing seems like a convenience
  348. # [16:20] <annevk> GPHemsley: everything on the platform that does a Fetch, simple example is <img>
  349. # [16:21] <GPHemsley> annevk: Right, but what is the "API"? HTML?
  350. # [16:21] <annevk> GPHemsley: <img> is an API, background-image is another
  351. # [16:22] <GPHemsley> hmm
  352. # [16:22] <GPHemsley> And when would the Sniff part differ by API?
  353. # [16:23] <GPHemsley> Presumably all APIs of a given context are dealing with the same realities on the Web
  354. # [16:23] <annevk> <img> does sniffing for images. XMLHttpRequest only sometimes ignores Content-Type, but does no real sniffing.
  355. # [16:23] <GPHemsley> Well, the connection context is one that requires a little more thought
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  358. # [16:24] <GPHemsley> But I think the rest are fairly established
  359. # [16:25] <annevk> No, e.g. <script> and Worker both mostly ignore Content-Type, but Worker also ignores encoding
  360. # [16:25] <annevk> Both are script-src though.
  361. # [16:25] <GPHemsley> (The connection context was added to provide a home in the table for connect-src.)
  362. # [16:25] <annevk> And object-src covers <applet>/<object>/<embed>, which have vastly different sniffing rules
  363. # [16:26] <GPHemsley> <applet> doesn't really need sniffing, AFAICT. It's always Java.
  364. # [16:26] <annevk> Whereas in your table <object> is sometimes tied with image which is just wrong
  365. # [16:26] <annevk> GPHemsley: it's also always object-src
  366. # [16:26] <GPHemsley> And the sniffing for <object> is a superset of the sniffing for <embed>
  367. # [16:26] <annevk> As I said, the sniffing is distinct
  368. # [16:27] <annevk> And it's not clear that if we introduce a new similar context we want the same sniffing.
  369. # [16:27] <annevk> E.g. for <script> we added Worker but wanted different rules.
  370. # [16:27] * Aww is now known as EvilAww
  371. # [16:28] <GPHemsley> So what do you propose?
  372. # [16:30] <annevk> I think we should marry CSP contexts and Fetch. Then for sniffing we should find the right level of abstraction.
  373. # [16:31] <annevk> I think for most cases handling the sniffing where the fetching for the API is defined is fine, as it's e.g. done for <object> today. We might want to introduce something like "image fetch" as there are many APIs that fetch images.
  374. # [16:31] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@85.240.48.17) (Remote host closed the connection)
  375. # [16:32] <GPHemsley> annevk: So where does that leave http://mimesniff.spec.whatwg.org/#context-specific-sniffing ?
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  377. # [16:33] <GPHemsley> (which was the whole reason I compiled the contexts list)
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  379. # [16:33] * pdr|uk is now known as pdr
  380. # [16:34] <annevk> Those look like useful shorthands for the various APIs we have today, no? Although maybe some just want to inline that so the badness doesn't leak further...
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  382. # [16:34] <annevk> And in some cases they might not be okay, e.g. the example of <script> vs Worker
  383. # [16:34] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98)
  384. # [16:35] <annevk> Basically script does not do sniffing. It simply does not look at content-type at all.
  385. # [16:35] <annevk> Well, except to determine the encoding, in case of <script> (not Worker).
  386. # [16:36] <GPHemsley> So what determines the script type? The type hint?
  387. # [16:36] <annevk> The API.
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  389. # [16:37] <GPHemsley> (Keep in mind that I'm totally fine with defining a sniffing algorithm to not actually do any sniffing.)
  390. # [16:37] <GPHemsley> Is Worker always JavaScript?
  391. # [16:37] <GPHemsley> (How do you call Worker, anyway?)
  392. # [16:38] <annevk> new Worker("url")
  393. # [16:38] <annevk> GPHemsley: yes
  394. # [16:38] <GPHemsley> So isn't that a connection context, not a script context?
  395. # [16:40] <annevk> GPHemsley: For Sniff, maybe. Not for CSP.
  396. # [16:40] <GPHemsley> Ah, I see
  397. # [16:40] <GPHemsley> hmm
  398. # [16:42] <GPHemsley> Well, I suppose CSP doesn't have to map cleanly onto the contexts... The CSP directives kinda form their own contexts anyway
  399. # [16:43] <GPHemsley> They apply at different levels anyway
  400. # [16:43] <GPHemsley> annevk: Are you OK with the "How to use a context" steps?
  401. # [16:44] <annevk> It seems you'd sniff before handling, no?
  402. # [16:44] <annevk> Potentially as one-step (e.g. as many image libraries do)
  403. # [16:45] <annevk> Also, it seems you can only set the no-sniff flag after you actually fetched it
  404. # [16:45] <GPHemsley> annevk: "Handle" refers to http://mimesniff.spec.whatwg.org/#handling-a-resource
  405. # [16:46] <GPHemsley> annevk: And Sniff allows the UA to decide that they don't want to sniff based on the URL before the type is determined.
  406. # [16:46] <GPHemsley> (Like a nosniff whitelist)
  407. # [16:47] <annevk> Again, if you don't fetch it, you don't have a resource
  408. # [16:50] <GPHemsley> Not sure I understand what you're getting at
  409. # [16:50] <GPHemsley> If you don't have a resource, you can abort the steps
  410. # [16:50] <GPHemsley> s/can //
  411. # [16:50] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  412. # [16:50] <GPHemsley> Step 2
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  416. # [16:55] <annevk> 2. "Set no-sniff flag on resource" 3. "Fetch resource"
  417. # [16:55] <annevk> You cannot do 2 without 3
  418. # [16:55] <GPHemsley> ah
  419. # [16:55] <GPHemsley> well
  420. # [16:56] <GPHemsley> ok, so you're prefer steps 3 and 4 to be switched?
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  422. # [16:57] <jgraham> annevk: FWIW I got the API thing from KLM too. Couldn't tell if I had filled it in right since it didn't really day what was required. Katie assumed that the mail was a scam.
  423. # [16:58] <annevk> jgraham: a scam that points to your actual booking?
  424. # [16:58] * Quits: Kolombiken (~Adium@94.137.124.2) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  425. # [16:58] <jgraham> Well, yeah it quickly became clear it wasn't
  426. # [16:58] <annevk> GPHemsley: I think I'm a bit at a loss as to what the benefit of the sniffing contexts is
  427. # [16:59] <jgraham> But she has been trained to assume that unexpected mails asking for personal information aren't to be trusted
  428. # [16:59] <annevk> GPHemsley: there's a clear outcome of the CSP object-src context and why <object> needs to mention it
  429. # [16:59] <annevk> GPHemsley: it's not obvious that refactoring <object> with these sniffing contexts would be a win for the <object> spec
  430. # [16:59] <annevk> jgraham: fair enough
  431. # [17:00] <GPHemsley> annevk: I'm not sure I'm following. I compiled this list based on the existing concepts in HTML and CSS, in order to facilitate having different sniffing algorithms for each. The addition of CSP was per your request.
  432. # [17:01] <annevk> GPHemsley: "existing concepts"?
  433. # [17:02] <GPHemsley> annevk: Yes, these concepts are implicitly defined by the various parts of the HTML spec which detail sniffing. I just put a name on them.
  434. # [17:02] <annevk> And invented some more?
  435. # [17:02] <GPHemsley> Which ones do you consider "invented"?
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  438. # [17:04] <annevk> script
  439. # [17:04] <annevk> plugin?
  440. # [17:06] <GPHemsley> Well, OK, the contexts weren't all based on explicit sniffing instructions in HTML. They were compiled based on every possible fetch point.
  441. # [17:06] <annevk> So, I'm behind the goal of getting CSS and HTML to agree on how to fetch an image and sniff the hell out of it.
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  443. # [17:06] <annevk> But most of the other stuff defined in HTML is really HTML-specific and does not warrant abstraction I think.
  444. # [17:07] <GPHemsley> Well, the mimesniff spec has been created much to abstract sniffing out of the HTML spec.
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  446. # [17:08] <GPHemsley> But all the sniffing algorithms need to be explicitly referenced by a calling spec.
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  448. # [17:10] <annevk> "Abstract sniffing out" by itself is not enough of a goal. Having someone else maintain most of the details might be one. Having more specs use it might be another.
  449. # [17:11] <annevk> But too much abstraction comes at a cost.
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  451. # [17:11] <GPHemsley> What is the cost here?
  452. # [17:12] <annevk> Shifting text around for no benefit is costly as people who once understood what's going on have to relearn.
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  454. # [17:13] <annevk> And if it does not need to be referenced by other specs moving it away further from where the text is required can make the algorithm harder to follow (though sometimes easier)
  455. # [17:14] <GPHemsley> You seem to be speaking in hypotheticals.
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  458. # [17:17] <annevk> GPHemsley: I have some experience shifting bits around and I'm questioning some of what you're doing here
  459. # [17:17] <annevk> GPHemsley: I don't think you've clearly illustrated the benefit other than "the goal of Sniff is to further abstract HTML" which I don't think is a worthy goal
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  464. # [17:23] <GPHemsley> annevk: Yet you described two other possible goals that you do think are worthy, and would be fulfilled by the same outcome.
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  466. # [17:25] <annevk> The only benefit is the image stuff, but I thought we already had that particular invocation point long ago...
  467. # [17:29] <annevk> I think it may have been partly my fault for encouraging you in this direction though. My apologies. That was mostly due to CSP/Fetch convergence which is necessary. (CSP necessitates changes to the Fetch algorithm.)
  468. # [17:32] <Ms2ger> Peanut gallery:
  469. # [17:33] <Ms2ger> Is matches() safe to unprefix?
  470. # [17:33] <annevk> Ms2ger: implementation of http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/selectors-api2/ ?
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  472. # [17:33] <Ms2ger> Yep
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  474. # [17:34] <annevk> Ms2ger: with relative selectors and all?
  475. # [17:35] <annevk> that's pretty interesting; I would have expected find/findAll to happen first
  476. # [17:35] <annevk> That IDL should use different variable names for querySelector and find...
  477. # [17:35] <Ms2ger> We've had mozMatchesSelector since forever
  478. # [17:35] <Ms2ger> Not sure how close it is to the spec
  479. # [17:35] <annevk> Ms2ger: that's way different
  480. # [17:36] <Ms2ger> Want to comment in bug 886308?
  481. # [17:37] <annevk> sure
  482. # [17:37] <Ms2ger> Ta
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  484. # [17:38] <annevk> GPHemsley: so in general what you want is to make the minimal number of changes, until there's sort of sufficient build up of reasons for why the organisation of things should change; and to me it's not the case we're there for sniffing
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  530. # [19:01] <annevk> I guess bz meant requiring type for XSLT, as data:text/xml,<?xml-stylesheet href="data:text/css,:root{background:lime}"?><test/> works fine.
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  545. # [19:24] <reyre> is there a default display for WebVTT voice objects?
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  548. # [19:25] <reyre> tooltips don't work in a video element currently
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  572. # [20:04] <TabAtkins> reyre: What do you mean by "default display"?
  573. # [20:05] <reyre> TabAtkins: how should voice cues be displayed by default? should they be displayed? i.e. currently a voice tag is translated to a span with a title attribute that is the voice of the speaker
  574. # [20:05] <reyre> which would usually mean you could mouse over and see a tooltip
  575. # [20:05] <reyre> is that what we want?
  576. # [20:05] <TabAtkins> Ah, I dunno.
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  578. # [20:06] <reyre> or would it make more sense to have something like "Title: Text"
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  580. # [20:07] <reyre> TabAtkins: okay, i'll send an email to the mailing list, maybe we need some discussion about it or something
  581. # [20:07] <TabAtkins> That should be easy enough to do, btw, though I'm not sure that the ::cue() syntax allows it right now. Something like ::cue(voice::before) { content: attr(title) ": "; }
  582. # [20:07] <reyre> yeah an author could do that, but do we want a default display or something ?
  583. # [20:07] <TabAtkins> Dunno!
  584. # [20:07] <reyre> okay :)
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  636. # [22:04] <haelwenn> hello
  637. # [22:04] <haelwenn> i want to add the twitter:domain thing on the wiki can someone do it or can someone create an account for me (username: lanodan)
  638. # [22:06] <haelwenn> are you all AFK/away ?
  639. # [22:06] <haelwenn> i give you a minute
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  641. # [22:08] <haelwenn> ok the minute is pass i'll send an email
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  644. # [22:08] <jorgepedret> I guess there's a bunch of us just reading, I'm new here and don't have access to anything :-)
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  646. # [22:09] <TabAtkins> I believe we're moving to just allowing anything in <meta> anyway, so the wiki will become obsolete.
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The end :)