/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-07-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jul 04 00:00:01 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  11. # [00:07] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  12. # [00:07] <heycam> Hixie_, I'm OK with adding string constants, so please continue to use it
  13. # [00:08] <Hixie_> oh hey, heycam!
  14. # [00:08] <heycam> hi Hixie_
  15. # [00:08] <Hixie_> i just asked you a question on bug 21946
  16. # [00:09] * heycam looks
  17. # [00:09] * Parts: kerp (~kerosene@unaffiliated/kerozene)
  18. # [00:09] <Hixie_> re the constants, will they be distinguishable from "readonly attribute DOMString foo; // returns 'foo'" ? (and if so, is that ok?)
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  21. # [00:12] <heycam> Hixie_, they would be distinguishable, since constants are reflected as data properties, and attributes as accessor properties
  22. # [00:12] <heycam> whether that is OK for this particular case I have no idea
  23. # [00:13] <Hixie_> k
  24. # [00:13] <Hixie_> we'll see who complains
  25. # [00:14] <heycam> will reply on bug 21946
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  28. # [00:18] <Hixie_> thanks
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  31. # [00:29] <Hixie_> heycam: while you're at it, also looking for thoughts from you on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18242
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  37. # [00:42] <heycam> Hixie_, seems like it might make sense to move the definition of incumbent script into Web IDL
  38. # [00:43] <Hixie_> i would support that emphatically, if you were up for it
  39. # [00:43] <heycam> Hixie_, I wonder if we can use that in place of the "current global environment" stuff too
  40. # [00:43] <heycam> would be nice if they were the same
  41. # [00:44] <heycam> I'll give it a shot today
  42. # [00:44] <Hixie_> fwiw, what i have learnt from working in this area is that the world doesn't care what i think would be nice.
  43. # [00:44] <Hixie_> but i wish you luck!
  44. # [00:44] <heycam> ha
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  48. # [01:04] <Hixie_> anyone know who filed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22452? "<?xml-stylesheet?> should probably also block scripts. Maybe Link: too if we don't decide to kill it."
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  55. # [01:15] <Hixie_> damnit
  56. # [01:15] <Hixie_> now i have to spec PluginArray
  57. # [01:15] <Hixie_> i hate specifying these fake array objects
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  60. # [01:31] <Hixie_> can someone with an IE that supports flash paste me the log for http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2393 ?
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  66. # [01:40] <MikeSmith> Hixie_: here now
  67. # [01:40] <Hixie_> see /msg
  68. # [01:40] <Hixie_> from a few hours ago
  69. # [01:41] <MikeSmith> k
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  72. # [01:45] <MikeSmith> Hixie_: that "<?xml-stylesheet?> should probably also block scripts." bug is from Simon I think
  73. # [01:46] <Hixie_> zcorpan?
  74. # [01:46] <Hixie_> k
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  79. # [01:54] <Hixie_> apologies. earlier i said the validator was a bottleneck. it's not.
  80. # [01:54] <Hixie_> it's actually the webidl checker.
  81. # [01:55] <MikeSmith> boo for the webidl checker
  82. # [01:56] <MikeSmith> and yay for the validator
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  146. # [06:05] <JonathanNeal> What is `findAll`? http://timmywil.github.io/future-of-selectors/#/findAll
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  176. # [07:59] <heycam> Hixie_, probably won't get to the incumbent script definition today; I've moved it up my todo list tho
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  181. # [08:11] <Hixie_> heycam: i'm off until monday, and then i'm in navigator.plugins hell for a while
  182. # [08:11] <Hixie_> heycam: so no rush
  183. # [08:11] <heycam> ok cool, enjoy your long weekend
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  218. # [10:14] <annevk> I don't understand why we'd introduce string constants in IDL.
  219. # [10:15] <Ms2ger> Because Hixie_ doesn't want to write one sentence
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  223. # [10:27] <jgraham> I don't understand why we wouldn't want string constants in IDL
  224. # [10:28] <annevk> The thread "ACTION-791: Redraft proposed "status" section that TAG is suggesting for Polyglot" on www-tag is hard to believe. HTML WG only resolves bugs someone files a bug on?
  225. # [10:29] <annevk> jgraham: because it's not justified
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  227. # [10:29] <annevk> jgraham: and because it would actually introduce semantics that are different from how the attribute in question works today
  228. # [10:29] <jgraham> annevk: Isn't that just a restatement of the argument
  229. # [10:29] <Ms2ger> Why would you fix anything else?
  230. # [10:30] <jgraham> s/argument/objection/
  231. # [10:30] <Ms2ger> jgraham, surely the burden of argument in on the one who wants to add things?
  232. # [10:31] <jgraham> Sure, but just saying "it isn't justified" doesn't tell me why you think the justification ("we need it to express this property") isn't enough
  233. # [10:31] <jgraham> AFAICT if we don't add it every vendor will invent their own IDL extension with the required semantics
  234. # [10:32] <Ms2ger> What makes you think that?
  235. # [10:32] <jgraham> Because that seems to be what usually happens when an interface requires certian behaviour that isn't well captured by WebIDL
  236. # [10:32] <Ms2ger> But it doesn't require that behaviour
  237. # [10:33] <Ms2ger> Everyone implements it as a simple attribute
  238. # [10:33] <jgraham> Well this seems to be a totally different argument
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  240. # [10:33] <annevk> Yeah, this instance you'd just implement as a readonly attribute that always returns the same value.
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  242. # [10:34] <annevk> Exactly as the specification would define it.
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  244. # [10:34] <annevk> The question is what string constants would be useful for in general, since here it'd be a mismatch with implemented semantics.
  245. # [10:35] <jgraham> So if you are arguing that the sematics of the attribute in the spec are wrong, should be changed, and therefore there are no use cases that require string constants, that seems much more reasonable
  246. # [10:38] <annevk> I'm not sure where I said anything else
  247. # [10:40] <jgraham> "Because it's not justified" doesn't obviously mean "Because it has the wrong semantics to describe the feature it was introduced for, and there are no other features requiring those semantics"
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  251. # [10:55] <annevk> Well I said more than that :-)
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  303. # [12:53] <annevk> So IE's file: parsing is saner than WebKit tests suggest
  304. # [12:53] <annevk> This is promising
  305. # [12:58] <darobin> ah, I love that part where annevk gets his hopes up about something to do with the sanity of URLs
  306. # [12:58] <darobin> let's just sit back, relax, and watch him face the bitter disappointment of life
  307. # [12:59] <jgraham> Yeah, seriously, I already got the popcorn
  308. # [13:00] * Ms2ger huddles up
  309. # [13:04] <SimonSapin> annevk: "Does file: relative to file:///test/path yield file:/// or file:///test/path. I don’t even… " care?
  310. # [13:04] <SimonSapin> pick one
  311. # [13:05] <annevk> It's more about what picking one implies, but I guess that gets kinda lost of you don't have in-depth knowledge of URL parsing.
  312. # [13:05] <annevk> In any event, it seems browsers differ enough even on Windows to let sanity prevail.
  313. # [13:05] * Ms2ger steals some of jgraham's popcorn
  314. # [13:05] <SimonSapin> I suppose that’s for a small audience :)
  315. # [13:06] <annevk> Yeah, my blog often is :-)
  316. # [13:07] * annevk goes to buy some popcorn
  317. # [13:07] <SimonSapin> meanwhile in CSS-land, my "background-attachment: local" patch will get twice as big to handle the case where background-clip content-box is combined with border-radius
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  323. # [13:26] * hallvors haz peanuts
  324. # [13:29] <hallvors> (annevk: happy 10th blog anniversary BTW)
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  329. # [13:45] <annevk> hallvors: (thanks)
  330. # [13:51] <Ms2ger> "W3C Invites Implementations of Indexed Database API"
  331. # [13:56] <annevk> "W3C Invites Mockery"
  332. # [13:57] <darobin> but we give them tea and all!
  333. # [13:57] <MikeSmith> w3c: pong
  334. # [13:58] <sangwhan_> can't wait to see the equivalent mail for indieui
  335. # [14:00] <jgraham> What are they invited to?
  336. # [14:00] <jgraham> Is there a party?
  337. # [14:01] <darobin> why, tea
  338. # [14:02] <darobin> with scones
  339. # [14:04] * annevk <3 scones
  340. # [14:08] <annevk> So Chrome does more file URL fixup than Firefox does on Windows.
  341. # [14:09] <annevk> Nobody does it quite like Internet Explorer though.
  342. # [14:10] <SimonSapin> How surprising
  343. # [14:10] * darobin ponders scone-flavoured popcorn
  344. # [14:14] <darobin> mmmm, so new Date("2013-02-29") returns an invalid date on Gecko but March 1 on Blink
  345. # [14:14] <darobin> fuuuuuuuuuuu
  346. # [14:16] <darobin> ah, and more discrepancies in new Date("Thh:mm)
  347. # [14:16] <annevk> Maha, and you're enjoying popcorn over URLs... Date parsing, that's where it's at :p
  348. # [14:17] <darobin> lol
  349. # [14:17] <darobin> I reckon date parsing is easier than URLs
  350. # [14:17] <Ms2ger> Do you?
  351. # [14:17] <darobin> dates only become really interesting once you throw in I18N
  352. # [14:17] <darobin> Ms2ger: we're talking about URLs here
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  358. # [14:39] <hallvors> We rewrote Opera's date parsing a year or two ago. Those were interesting times.. ;)
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  361. # [14:41] <hallvors> Heh. Trying to debug Google Plus in Opera 12 got me into a state where Opera was hanging and not even "End process" in the WinXP Task manager could kill it.
  362. # [14:42] <hallvors> I've never seen that before :-o
  363. # [14:43] * hallvors tempts fate by trying again from Ubuntu ..
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  367. # [14:49] <SimonSapin> Zombie Opera sounds kinda cool
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  373. # [14:59] <annevk> Hmm, WebKit/Chromium has another quirk nobody else has: file:///c:test becomes file:///C:/test rather than remaining the same
  374. # [15:00] <jgraham> I remember those date parsing tests
  375. # [15:00] <hallvors> Windows restart time :-/
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  377. # [15:01] <jgraham> I guess we could even submit them somewhere if TC39 didn't leave date parsing as an exercise to the reader
  378. # [15:06] <Ms2ger> Make matjas spec it :)
  379. # [15:08] <annevk> Whoa, another Webkit/Chromium quirk: file:///C:/../test/ gives file:///C:/test/ rather than file:///test/
  380. # [15:08] <jgraham> And turn the results into a novel called 50 Shades of Specification?
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  389. # [15:24] <annevk> Filed http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=257354
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  401. # [15:53] <gsnedders> Those date parsing tests are timezone dependent, too, just to make it more fun.
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  405. # [16:04] <darobin> gsnedders: it gets more fun when you need to open http://www.amazon.co.uk/Calendrical-Calculations-Nachum-Dershowitz/dp/0521702380/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=19U91O2EGYIPS&coliid=I56NXMCE2SOZD
  406. # [16:07] <Hixie_> annevk: it would indeed be even cooler if there was a way to have the same semantics concisely
  407. # [16:08] <annevk> Hixie_: it seems if it's only for one or two instances adding it to IDL is not really useful
  408. # [16:08] <annevk> Hixie_: especially as readonly attribute covers it quite well
  409. # [16:09] <Hixie_> if heycam's willing to add it, it's useful to me :-)
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  412. # [16:14] <gsnedders> darobin: :)
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  420. # [17:06] <gsnedders> Where do reviews of CSS tests happen nowadays? Randomly on mailing lists?
  421. # [17:07] <Ms2ger> What makes you think they happen?
  422. # [17:07] <gsnedders> Well, I was doubting that. But what does "submitted for review" mean? Just it's been put in the right folder, nothing apart from flipping a flag?
  423. # [17:08] <Ms2ger> Put in the right folder, aiui
  424. # [17:10] <jgraham> Just make a pull request on the github repo
  425. # [17:10] <jgraham> (I kid, I kid)
  426. # [17:11] <gsnedders> jgraham: Man, you so funny.
  427. # [17:11] <Ms2ger> Apparently plinss wants to get shepherd on github first
  428. # [17:12] <gsnedders> Why is pushing stuff to github taking so long suddenly? Meh.
  429. # [17:14] <jgraham> You think you have problems. Whenever github goes down I get like 100 emails an hour from critic with all the branches that can't update
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  436. # [17:44] <gsnedders> What's the state of the HTML Editing APIs spec?
  437. # [17:46] <Ms2ger> Aryeh is still studying
  438. # [17:46] <gsnedders> I'm aware of that. I'm just guessing nobody else has taken it over?
  439. # [17:47] <Ms2ger> No
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  441. # [17:55] <jgraham> I think the official status is "Abandon all hope ye who enter here"
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  466. # [19:22] <mpt> As long as <http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/states-of-the-type-attribute.html#date-and-time-state-%28type=datetime%29> et seq. say "User agents should allow the user to set the value to the empty string.", <http://developers.whatwg.org/states-of-the-type-attribute.html#date-state-%28type=date%29> et seq. probably should warn authors that the user might.
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  468. # [19:25] <mpt> It's not an obvious possibility if the control has a non-empty default value.
  469. # [19:29] <jgraham> Does any UA actually allow that?
  470. # [19:30] <jgraham> Or rather, what's the use case?
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  473. # [19:36] * rwaldron_ is now known as rwaldron
  474. # [19:41] <jgraham> I think my life would have been \epsilon better if there weren't multimegabyte videos checked in to the testharness.js repository
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  480. # [19:47] <mpt> jgraham, one I've experienced (though not on the Web) was where I entered an address book contact's birth year, then later blanked it because they admitted giving a false age
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  482. # [19:53] <jgraham> I guess that's a reasonable use case
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  498. # [21:14] <Ms2ger> Oh look, e4x: http://blog.vjeux.com/2013/javascript/jsx-for-the-real-dom.html
  499. # [21:15] <zewt> D:
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  505. # Session Close: Thu Jul 04 21:38:02 2013
  506. #
  507. # Session Start: Thu Jul 04 21:38:02 2013
  508. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  509. # [21:38] * Disconnected
  510. # [21:39] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  511. # [21:39] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  512. # [21:39] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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The end :)