/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-07-09 / end

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# Session Start: Tue Jul 09 00:00:01 2013
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:19] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: What I'm really looking for right now is money, but if you have an existing link, I'll take a look
# [00:19] <Hixie_> there's no existing link. that's the problem.
# [00:20] <GPHemsley> ah
# [00:20] <GPHemsley> any documentation at all?
# [00:20] <Hixie_> things like https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/GlobalEventHandlers.onmouseover
# [00:20] <Hixie_> but nothing particularly useful
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# [00:40] <jwalden> the DOM is still a tree, right? that particular invariant *has* been preserved, unlike many others, right?
# [00:41] <jwalden> Hixie_: I think they tried to make it work with IE10, then folded in SP1 or some sort of update
# [00:43] <gsnedders> jwalden: Yes
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# [01:03] <Hixie_> jwalden: yes
# [01:03] <Hixie_> jwalden: make what work?
# [01:03] <jwalden> Hixie_: shipping without Flash support, possibly with a site whitelist of sites that allow it
# [01:03] <jwalden> a valiant effort
# [01:03] <jwalden> possibly too soon
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# [01:11] <Hixie_> ah
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# [01:31] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: Do all mouse events have a corresponding onX attribute in HTML, and vice versa?
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# [01:46] <Hixie_> i hope so
# [01:47] <gsnedders> jwalden: Only IE/Metro, IE/Desktop always had the same Flash behaviour
# [01:48] <jwalden> ah
# [01:48] * jwalden only remembers vaguenesses from the IE blog
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# [01:53] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: How would this differ from DOM and/or UI Events?
# [01:53] <GPHemsley> (And does it warrant its own separate document?)
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# [01:54] <Hixie_> GPHemsley: it would differ in that it would define when the events fire.
# [01:55] <Hixie_> GPHemsley: there's nothing currently that says "and when the mouse button is pressed, _fire a click event_ that..."
# [01:55] <Hixie_> or more precisely, that says exactly what order all the relevant events fire in, etc
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# [01:59] <Hixie_> interesting. chrome doesn't have plugin.version, which firefox has.
# [01:59] <zewt> good old DOM Events specs
# [02:00] <zewt> i always get wary as soon as I see tables with "Cancelable" and "Bubbles" rows
# [02:01] <zewt> (never mind "Sync/Async" and "Default action" ...)
# [02:01] <Hixie_> oh man
# [02:01] <Hixie_> yes
# [02:01] <Hixie_> so much yes
# [02:02] <zewt> the phrase "default action" needs to be struck from specs, it leads to so much fundamental confusion about how events work
# [02:02] <Hixie_> (re "cancelable", etc: at least in a section claiming to define the event name, and not a particular way the event gets dispatched, which is what HTML tries to do)
# [02:03] <zewt> well, defining the name by itself is meaningless
# [02:04] <zewt> http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/#event-type-mouseleave but yeah, this needs a redo badly some day
# [02:04] <zewt> the basic indexing of those specs is totally wrong--listing by event names and when they're fired, instead of listing by actions that take place and the events that are fired when they happen
# [02:04] <zewt> the whole thing's inside out
# [02:05] <zewt> (yeah, I know I don't need to convince you of this, heh)
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# [02:06] <Hixie_> yeah i was gonna say :-)
# [02:06] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: These DOM 3 events are the ones that need speccing?
# [02:07] * GPHemsley wonders why mouseover is supposed to fire before mouseenter
# [02:08] <zewt> does cancelling mouseover prevent mouseenter?
# [02:09] <GPHemsley> no idea
# [02:09] <GPHemsley> I'm just reading the DOM 3 Events list
# [02:09] <zewt> no idea either, just a hypothesis :P
# [02:09] <GPHemsley> 5.2.3.2 Mouse Event Order
# [02:10] <zewt> i like how those lists aren't even normative
# [02:10] <zewt> it's just "eh well it's sorta like this:"
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# [02:11] <GPHemsley> mostly because you're supposed to already *know* that (duh) from each event type's definition
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# [02:11] <Hixie_> GPHemsley: these events are what need speccing. I wouldn't call them "DOM 3 events", they were invented before the W3C had a DOM WG. (Possibly before the W3C existed.)
# [02:12] <zewt> Hixie_: well, most of them anyway
# [02:12] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: Oh, well, that spec is called "DOM 3 Events" :P
# [02:12] <Hixie_> GPHemsley: as zewt says, though, it's not so much the events that need speccing, as the reaction to mouse movements, clicks, etc. Which happens to involve firing events with these names, but that's the effect, no the cause.
# [02:12] <zewt> GPHemsley: the event descriptions don't say anything about relative order, do they?
# [02:13] <GPHemsley> zewt: I haven't read them, but I think the idea is that you infer the order from the definitions.
# [02:13] <zewt> http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/#event-type-mouseover well, this doesn't seem to say anything about its relative order to mouseenter, or vice versa, at least
# [02:13] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: Ah, so it's not a Mouse Events spec is a Mouse Interaction spec.
# [02:14] <GPHemsley> s/ is/, it's/
# [02:14] <zewt> UI interaction, mouse events just being an important part
# [02:15] <zewt> (keyboard events are nasty too, of course)
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# [02:15] <zewt> are touch events specced anywhere? those are important now, too
# [02:15] <GPHemsley> hmm
# [02:16] <zewt> and they interact with mouse events, they'd want to be in the same spec
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# [02:16] <gsnedders> There was a WG, but it went into PAG hell.
# [02:16] <GPHemsley> does UI Events handle keyboard interaction well enough?
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# [02:16] <zewt> i doubt it defines any events well enough, heh
# [02:17] <zewt> i don't know what the status of speccing keycodes is (guessing interop is still hopeless)
# [02:17] <gsnedders> "handle keyboard interaction well enough?" hahahahahahaha
# [02:17] <gsnedders> What zewt said, basically
# [02:17] <gsnedders> keycodes? specified?
# [02:18] <heycam> Hixie_, you're right, there's no way to say named properties are not enumerable, currently
# [02:18] <zewt> keycodes are probably one of those really hard to fix things--since it's had zero interop for so long, everyone uses UA sniffing to make sense of it, which probably means that interop can never happen
# [02:18] <GPHemsley> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/d4e/raw-file/tip/source_respec.htm#key-codes
# [02:18] <gsnedders> zewt: Opera's had issues every time we change to match others better. And then we break a fuckton of stuff that sniffs us.
# [02:18] <Hixie_> man, can you say scope creep :-P
# [02:19] <Hixie_> GPHemsley: i'm just saying mouse interaction, don't go down the road of keyboard interaction events before mouse is done, that's a rat hole and a half
# [02:19] <zewt> i seem to recall some minor effort to add a new keycode-ish property on keyboard events, so interop can be dumped there and leave keycode to the wolves, but i'm not holding my breath on that
# [02:19] <Hixie_> you can't just not support the old key events
# [02:19] <Hixie_> the entire web depends on those
# [02:19] <Hixie_> heycam: k. filed a bug.
# [02:19] <Hixie_> heycam: for now i'm just using handwavy prose.
# [02:19] <gsnedders> GPHemsley: Mostly informative and not matching anyone, no?
# [02:19] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: And what about touch?
# [02:20] <GPHemsley> gsnedders: No idea :)
# [02:20] <Hixie_> GPHemsley: there's a wg on that. i'd stay waaaay clear.
# [02:20] <GPHemsley> k
# [02:20] <heycam> Hixie_, ok cool. if anything, I'll add a term you can link to, not IDL syntax.
# [02:20] <Hixie_> cool
# [02:20] <GPHemsley> so... the WHATWG handles all the stuff that people just assume are already handled
# [02:20] <Hixie_> heycam: i figure the easiest option is probably a [LegacyNonEnumerableNamedProperties] attribute or something
# [02:21] <Hixie_> GPHemsley: more or less
# [02:21] <Hixie_> the nitty gritty isn't sexy
# [02:21] <GPHemsley> we're like the guy with the broom at the end of the parade
# [02:21] <zewt> Hixie_: so, wait until the WG specs touch events badly, then throw it out and spec it too? heh
# [02:21] <Hixie_> (in the w3c's defense, CSS 2.1 was the first effort of its kind)
# [02:22] <Hixie_> zewt: i'd stay away from touch events because it's a patent mine field and we have bigger fish to fry tright now.
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# [02:29] <Hixie_> you know it's a bad day when spec something that involves TWELVE separate occurrences of the fingerprint vector warning icon.
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# [02:45] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: PAG hell?
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# [02:45] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: patent advisory group
# [02:46] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Just, a wonderful way to stop anything actually moving forward
# [02:46] <TabAtkins> Anyone know if it's possible in git to take a chunk of one file, and move it into a brand new repo with history intact? Maybe just by cloning the old repo into a new one and manually carving away the rest of the file as the first new-repo commit?
# [02:47] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: As Hixie said, it's a patent mind field with people claiming a fuckton of patents covering it
# [02:47] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: You can take the single file and make a new repo of that, but not easily a chunk without manually doing a lot of work, I think
# [02:47] <TabAtkins> Single file works as long as I get to carry history.
# [02:48] <TabAtkins> If not, it's not a huge loss, but I'd like to.
# [02:48] <gsnedders> clone and then use `git-filter-branch`
# [02:48] <gsnedders> To remove everything but that file
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# [03:01] <TabAtkins> Excellent, thanks!
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# [03:17] <TabAtkins> Do algebraic numbers have a single-letter name, like Z for the integers or Q for the rationals?
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# [03:22] <Hixie_> "algebraic numbers"?
# [03:22] <TabAtkins> Solution to polynomials. The reals minus the transendentals.
# [03:23] <TabAtkins> transcendentals
# [03:23] <Hixie_> oh, those. not to my knowledge.
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# [03:24] <TabAtkins> Hm, then I don't have a class name for them that matches my pattern. ;_;
# [03:24] <TabAtkins> My bigint class is called Z, my rational class will be called Q.
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# [03:30] <GPHemsley> "the algebraic numbers therefore form a field, sometimes denoted by A (which may also denote the adele ring) or Q [overbar]."
# [03:30] <TabAtkins> A works for me! Thanks!
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# [03:30] <TabAtkins> I couldn't find anything, but I was probably just skimming too fast.
# [03:31] <GPHemsley> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algebraic_number#The_field_of_algebraic_numbers
# [03:32] <GPHemsley> "In other words, the intersection of Q and A is exactly Z."
# [03:32] <GPHemsley> In other words, the intersection of Q and A is exactly Z.
# [03:32] <GPHemsley> err
# [03:32] <GPHemsley> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algebraic_integer#Examples
# [03:33] <GPHemsley> just for reference
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# [03:34] <GPHemsley> TabAtkins: ^
# [03:35] <TabAtkins> Interesting. That's a different reference, using A to refer solely to algebraic integers.
# [03:35] <TabAtkins> I'll just ignore that.
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# [03:53] * GPHemsley shrugs
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# [04:30] <cabanier> TabAtkins: polynomials? what are you doing? :-)
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# [04:31] <TabAtkins> Doing Project Euler problems in JS, so I needed a bigint library, and wrote one for myself.
# [04:31] <TabAtkins> Soonish I'll need rationals, so I'll write that. And then I might as well keep going.
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# [16:01] <annevk> Changed the spec and patched Firefox... https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=891340
# [16:05] <jgraham> Isn't that cheating? :p
# [16:05] <annevk> The best kind
# [16:11] <Hixie_> hm, i can't find any outstanding feedback on script preloading
# [16:11] <Hixie_> that's amazing, usually there's always something or other pending...
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# [16:14] <annevk> Hixie_: are you sure? I'm pretty sure people still want more options for loading scripts
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# [16:15] <annevk> Hixie_: talk with JakeA
# [16:15] <Hixie_> can't find any outstanding...
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# [16:15] <annevk> Hixie_: e.g. http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/speed/script-loading/
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# [16:16] <JakeA> I'd love http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/speed/script-loading/#toc-depressing to be possible
# [16:16] <jgraham> Hixie_: Including email?
# [16:16] <Hixie_> oh i'm sure people want stuff, but either they haven't asked for it, or they didn't reply to my last question on the topic
# [16:16] <Hixie_> jgraham: yeah
# [16:16] <Hixie_> jgraham: (there's very few bugs actually left now)
# [16:17] <Hixie_> (only about 200 including all the deferred ones)
# [16:17] <JakeA> Hixie_: Which question is this?
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# [16:19] <Hixie_> JakeA: dunno
# [16:19] <Hixie_> JakeA: i'm just saying i can't find any outstanding feedback on the topic of script preloading
# [16:19] <Hixie_> JakeA: which usually is very rare since there's always someone complaining about it :-)
# [16:20] <JakeA> Kyle isn't happy that IE11 dropped readystate http://blog.getify.com/ie11-please-bring-real-script-preloading-back/
# [16:20] <JakeA> although that's more an IE complaint than spec
# [16:20] <Hixie_> yeah kyle is usually the one asking for something
# [16:21] <Hixie_> (though i have great trouble understanding what he wants)
# [16:21] <JakeA> :D
# [16:22] <annevk> Hixie_: I think JakeA's article above captures what problems people are running into today with the semantics we offer
# [16:22] <JakeA> I wanted a depends attribute, which took a CSS selector for dependencies, but saw that similar things had been discussed and the circular thing was a blocker. I'm hoping the ES6 module stuff is going to deal with this now
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# [16:22] <Hixie_> so there's two things i don't understand
# [16:22] <JakeA> (eg <script src="…" depends=".other-scripts"></script>)
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# [16:23] <Hixie_> the first is, why does the platform need to worry about order? it's so trivial to make scripts wait on each other, and javascript is late-binding. the other is, if the slowness is just networking, then why can't you just use XHR and when you're ready, inline the script?
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# [16:24] <Hixie_> i'm sure if kyle saw me asking these, he'd bash his head against a wall, since i've asked him the same thing dozens of times and he's tried to answer dozens more
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# [16:25] <JakeA> Is it trivial to make scripts wait on each other? If one is a library from a CDN, and the other 3 are scripts of mine that use that library, how do I maintain execution order?
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# [16:26] <JakeA> As for XHR, I know Chrome treats XHR as low priority when the page is loading
# [16:26] <jgraham> To be fair xhr+inlining seems rather complicated compared to a declarative solution
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# [16:27] <JakeA> & not discoverable by pre-parsers etc
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# [16:29] <JakeA> A declarative version of async=false would be most of the way there. But if we're going to see concatenation thrown out of the window with HTTP2, it'd be nice to have feature scripts run as soon as they & their dependencies are ready
# [16:29] <Hixie_> JakeA: put "if (window.postMyLibraryLoad) while (window.postMyLibraryLoad.length) window.postMyLibraryLoad.pop()();" at the end of the library, put "if (!window.myLibrary) { if (!window.postMyLibraryLoad) window.postMyLibraryLoad = []; window.postMyLibraryLoad.push(localInit); } else localInit();" at the end of your dependent scripts
# [16:29] <Hixie_> or some such
# [16:30] <Hixie_> lots of ways to do it
# [16:30] <annevk> Hixie_: you can't change the library script typically
# [16:30] <Hixie_> of course you can change the library script
# [16:30] <annevk> Hixie_: lots of sites load jQuery from Google
# [16:31] <Hixie_> so just have jQuery implement this directly
# [16:31] <jgraham> So, would something like <script src="foo" defer="id1 id2"> work? In down-rev browsers the script would be defered until DOMContentLoaded. In supporting browsers it would execute after scripts with id id1 and id2, with some logic at DOMContentLoaded to ensure that all scripts would load
# [16:32] <jgraham> Hixie_: It isn't really sensible to get all library authors to agree on a common loading pattern
# [16:32] <JakeA> jgraham: Yeah, although you can get into deadlock, which I've head is the reason this has been thrown out in the past
# [16:32] <Hixie_> jgraham: they don't need to. just put whatever pattern you want at the end of the library.
# [16:32] <jgraham> And if they have to it is clear evidence that the platform should be providing one
# [16:32] <annevk> Hixie_: getting each library to work on some kind of standardized solution could maybe work... but putting the solution a level higher would be so much easier
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# [16:32] <jgraham> Hixie_: If you don't control the library you can't do that
# [16:32] <JakeA> I guess this common loading pattern is ES6 modules
# [16:33] <Hixie_> anyway, if there's a library that matters so much, why can't you just import it with <script src="">
# [16:33] <JakeA> but yeah, if it's a hosted library, you lose
# [16:33] <jgraham> JakeA: I'm not sure I see that there has to be a deadlock
# [16:33] <Hixie_> then it'll automatically block anything else
# [16:33] <jgraham> But I am probably missing something
# [16:33] <annevk> Hixie_: you don't want to block page loading
# [16:33] <annevk> Hixie_: and you want <script> loading to start asap
# [16:34] <zewt> (i don't want to modify external libraries if i don't absolutely have to--maintenance headache)
# [16:34] <annevk> Hixie_: this is fairly fundamental stuff in web development...
# [16:34] <jgraham> (if you end up in a situation where B is waiting for A and A for B you can decree that tree order wins or something)
# [16:34] <JakeA> jgraham: <script id="one" defer="two" src="…"> <script id="two" defer="one" src="…">
# [16:34] <JakeA> yeah, that'd work
# [16:35] <Hixie_> annevk: *shrug* i agree it's fundamental, i just don't see the problem...
# [16:36] <jgraham> I don't know enough about ES6 modules to know if they solve this. Presumably they can only work once the script has downloaded and parsed
# [16:36] <annevk> Hixie_: 1) you don't want to modify libraries and you can't always do that 2) you don't want to block page loading 3) you want to start loading dependencies asap
# [16:36] <annevk> Hixie_: script loading doesn't cater to that at the moment
# [16:36] <annevk> Hixie_: it seems pretty trivial to me
# [16:40] <JakeA> jgraham: I'm *hoping* you can put your imports in an inline script. They'd be declarative so preloaders can do their thing, and I hope you can be complex with the dependencies. However, I have no idea if it'll turn out like this
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# [16:40] <jgraham> Ah, I see
# [16:41] <jgraham> It doesn't seem very modular though
# [16:41] <JakeA> I like jgraham's suggestion, although it should use a new attribute rather than defer as IE<10 has poisoned defer
# [16:42] <jgraham> (although I guess one way or another none of this is since it is all about declaring dependencies seperate from the actual code)
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# [16:48] * GPHemsley clouds up the wiki history
# [16:49] <GPHemsley> moar categories! moar obsolete pages!
# [16:51] <annevk> Not entirely sure http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Character_Encoding_Detection is completely obsolete, but I guess it's fine to mark it as such
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# [17:09] <Hixie_> if we do do <script defer="otherscript1 otherscript2">, we could also do <script asneeded> and HTMLScriptElement.needed(), and .needed() would propagate to all the elements that defer="" points to as well
# [17:09] <Hixie_> (i guess asneeded should still download and parse, just not execute)
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# [17:10] <Hixie_> (though i'm very not convinced that executing needs to take any time at all, so i don't understand why people are so eager to parse ahead of time but defer execution)
# [17:12] <Hixie_> looks like http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2012-December/038429.html is the last e-mail i can find on the subject
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# [17:17] <GPHemsley> annevk: In this case, "obsolete" means "superseded"—the contents of the wiki page are not necessarily wrong; they're just no longer authoritative.
# [17:18] <annevk> GPHemsley: I think for this subject they might be. Though it might turn out we're going to get the entire platform to move away from sniffing.
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# [17:18] <GPHemsley> annevk: Well, if you think the wiki page is still relevant, feel free to revert. :)
# [17:19] <annevk> Hixie_: btw, I've also seen requests for <link rel=stylesheet async>
# [17:19] <annevk> Hixie_: to indicate the style sheet is not essential for the purposes of <script>, .offsetWidth, etc.
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# [17:47] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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# [18:02] <GPHemsley> Who broke the whatwg.org domain?
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# [18:04] <GPHemsley> ah, it's back
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# [18:30] <JakeA> Hixie_: Like asneeded, needed should return a promise
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# [18:31] <Hixie_> needed?
# [18:31] <Hixie_> wouldn't this be a content attribute?
# [18:31] <JakeA> HTMLScriptElement.needed().then(...)
# [18:31] <Hixie_> oh, right
# [18:31] <Hixie_> which would execute once the scripts had run?
# [18:32] <JakeA> yeah
# [18:32] <Hixie_> so basically the same as <script onafterscriptexecute> ?
# [18:32] <JakeA> I guess you've been told the gmail js-in-comments story 100 times
# [18:32] <Hixie_> er, <script onload> i mean
# [18:32] <Hixie_> gmail does all kinds of things that i don't understand the motivation for
# [18:33] <JakeA> yeah, it'd be like onload but promisey
# [18:33] <JakeA> Here's David Herman looking at function-futures https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=854627
# [18:34] <Hixie_> i don't understand that bug. why wouldn't all script compilation happen async?
# [18:34] <JakeA> Here's me with a very similar idea to asneeed https://gist.github.com/jakearchibald/5618497
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# [18:35] <JakeA> I think FunctionFuture is an alternative to `new Function`, which is sync
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# [18:36] <Hixie_> new Function () doesn't do any compilation, does it?
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# [18:37] <JakeA> yeah, var f = new Function("alert('hello')"); f();
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# [18:37] <Hixie_> oh, with arguments
# [18:37] <Hixie_> yeah that's just a fancy eval. just don't do that.
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# [18:38] <JakeA> indeed
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# [18:39] <JakeA> When I threw that gist around, people much preferred the "depends" attribute to the promise-based model for determining execution order, but yeah, you don't get to defer parsing
# [18:39] <Hixie_> well you could
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# [18:39] <Hixie_> is that needed?
# [18:39] <Hixie_> i can't tell what people want
# [18:39] <Hixie_> delaying execution seems pointless since execution can be free
# [18:39] <Hixie_> but that seems to be what people ask for
# [18:40] <JakeA> I'm equally unconvinced
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# [18:40] <JakeA> I avoided serving js to older browsers on http://m.lanyrd.com, the old backberry browser took seconds to parse the js
# [18:41] <Hixie_> well old browsers aren't going to support any of this new stuff either way
# [18:41] <JakeA> exactly
# [18:41] <JakeA> maybe the gmail team have data on this for newer devices?
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# [18:46] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: Still trying to determine the exact dimensions of the gap in mouse behavior specs: Are you looking for something like "When the mouse moves over an element, fire a 'mousemove' event on that element'?
# [18:47] <Hixie_> yes
# [18:47] <Hixie_> with a "must" in there somewhere
# [18:47] <Hixie_> :-)
# [18:48] <Hixie_> oops, apparently i forgot to tell dreamhost t actually go ahead and update the server OS
# [18:48] <Hixie_> whatwg.org will probably go down for a bit today while the OS is updated
# [18:48] <GPHemsley> yeah, I noticed :P
# [18:52] <annevk> Ms2ger: write a test
# [18:53] <Ms2ger> It's your bug :)
# [18:54] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: Are you picturing this mouse behavior spec to be its own document?
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# [18:56] <annevk> GPHemsley: also, note that there's a number of problems with that line
# [18:56] <GPHemsley> annevk: ?
# [18:56] <Hixie_> GPHemsley: only insofar as you'd likely not want it in the mime sniffing document :-)
# [18:56] <annevk> GPHemsley: 1) "moves over an element"; you need to define how to determine this, through defining hit testing
# [18:57] <Hixie_> GPHemsley: my personal ideal would be that all our specs be in one document, but that's too complicated to handle edit-wise, so my realistic ideal is that there be one doc per editor.
# [18:57] <annevk> GPHemsley: 2) "fire a mousemove event"; MouseEvent has a number of members and you'll need to define how each is to be set, given the element determined through hit testing
# [18:57] <Hixie_> GPHemsley: but you do as you wish :-)
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# [18:58] <GPHemsley> annevk: Well, that's part of my question... a lot of this is already defined in DOM 3 Events, IIUC
# [18:58] <Hixie_> i need a tool that can periodically sample memory usage on my linux box and show me the data over time
# [18:58] <Hixie_> anyone know of anything like that?
# [18:58] <annevk> GPHemsley: no it's not
# [18:59] <GPHemsley> annevk: Then I guess I don't UC
# [19:01] <annevk> Ms2ger: so if I were to write a test, which test should be updated?
# [19:01] <GPHemsley> annevk: Can you give an example of a MouseEvent member whose behavior is not defined by DOM 3 Events?
# [19:02] <Ms2ger> dom/ranges/Range-collapse.html in https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests
# [19:02] <annevk> GPHemsley: clientX
# [19:02] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: I ask because someone would need to set it up :)
# [19:02] <Ms2ger> / http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/dom/imptests/webapps/DOMCore/tests/approved/test_Range-collapse.html?force=1
# [19:02] <Hixie_> GPHemsley: oh if you want a subdomain, yeah, let me know
# [19:03] <annevk> Ms2ger: that seems like something you can do much better than I
# [19:03] <Ms2ger> I'm confident you can do it
# [19:03] <GPHemsley> annevk: Oh, so I have to get down to the nitty gritty about the pointer location? ( Hixie_ said this would be easy :( )
# [19:03] <Hixie_> i didn't say it would be _easy_
# [19:04] <Hixie_> just that it wouldn't be as bad as html editing :-)
# [19:04] <GPHemsley> oh, sorry, "not too hard"
# [19:04] <annevk> Ms2ger: first getting something through web-platform-tests and then importing that... I think I rather reassign
# [19:04] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: I have to watch your words carefully :P
# [19:04] <annevk> GPHemsley: hah, user interaction is hard
# [19:05] <annevk> GPHemsley: so you know pointer location, that's x,y, the problem is determining what element is at x,y, the scroll positions of the various elements, etc.
# [19:05] <GPHemsley> eesh
# [19:05] <annevk> GPHemsley: and then setting the event attributes correctly, adjusting for pseudo-elements, ...
# [19:05] <annevk> GPHemsley: adjusting for Shadow DOM
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# [19:12] <Hixie_> ok looks like update is happening now
# [19:12] <Hixie_> afk
# [19:13] <GPHemsley> "The building might be blowing up right now, so I'm gonna leave."
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# [19:16] <annevk> Ms2ger: seems that test has bugs
# [19:16] <annevk> Ms2ger: blargh
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# [19:27] <GPHemsley> And the Mozilla WebVTT situation has escalated...
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# [19:28] <rillian_> GPHemsley: following the bugs are you? :)
# [19:29] <GPHemsley> just the <track> tracking bug
# [19:29] <msaad> GPHemsley: let the spamming begin!
# [19:29] <GPHemsley> indeed
# [19:30] <annevk> Ms2ger: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/243 fix it
# [19:30] <annevk> GPHemsley: pointer?
# [19:30] <GPHemsley> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=629350
# [19:30] <GPHemsley> all the open dependencies are being WONTFIXed
# [19:31] <Ms2ger> Ignore that, please
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# [19:32] <annevk> Ms2ger is now a PR-bot?
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# [19:33] * GPHemsley does wonder why the legal bug never received a response
# [19:33] <Ms2ger> annevk, looks like something weird is up with the indentation in your PR
# [19:33] <annevk> Ms2ger: I tried to preserve the tabs, if that failed, fuck tabs
# [19:33] <Ms2ger> I don't disagree there...
# [19:34] <GPHemsley> <3 tabs
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# [19:42] <annevk> Ms2ger: anyway, someone can fix that when merging right?
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# [19:42] <Ms2ger> I guess
# [19:42] <Ms2ger> jgraham, ^
# [19:46] <Hixie_> ok, system's been upgraded
# [19:46] <Hixie_> i've already found two problems... my mail client and my text editor
# [19:46] <Hixie_> nothing i use regularly or anything...
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# [19:49] <Hixie_> ok pine is now alpine, that's easy enough and seems backwards compatible, excellent.
# [19:49] <Hixie_> now why is emacs not able to create directories in /tmp
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# [19:53] <Hixie_> ok, setting TMPDIR to something local seems to have fixed that
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# [22:16] <Hixie_> oh blimey, my entire build system is full of bugs now
# [22:16] * Hixie_ grabs some duct tape and goes on a fixing rampage
# [22:16] <Ms2ger> It wasn't before? :)
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# [22:19] <Hixie_> Ms2ger: i just updated the os
# [22:19] <Hixie_> well, i didn't
# [22:19] <Hixie_> dreamhost did
# [22:19] <Hixie_> so all the command line tools subtly changed behaviour
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# [22:22] <Hixie_> i just went up like two whole emacs versions
# [22:22] <Hixie_> i'm all the way up to date with 2010 emacs now! -_-
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# [22:24] <annevk> Hixie_: the broadcasting to same-origin global API, was that part of a bug already?
# [22:24] <annevk> globals*
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# [22:26] <Hixie_> come again?
# [22:27] <Hixie_> oh, like postMessage for broadcasts?
# [22:27] <Hixie_> i'm not aware of a bug or e-mail on that off-hand
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# [22:33] <annevk> Should I file one?
# [22:37] <Hixie_> if you must
# [22:37] <Hixie_> /usr/bin/perl: symbol lookup error: /home/ianh/bin/perl/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu-thread-multi/auto/Compress/Raw/Zlib/Zlib.so: undefined symbol: Perl_Tstack_sp_ptr
# [22:37] <Hixie_> that seems... bad
# [22:37] <Hixie_> oh i guess it means by zlib library is out of date
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# [22:38] <Hixie_> lets see if i even need that now...
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# [22:42] <annevk> I guess I must, and given you define Window/Workers...
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# [22:49] <annevk> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22628
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# [22:51] <smaug____> rafaelw: hmm, let me think of Bug 22296
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# [22:55] <annevk> Hmm, sees like the diff cache is full again
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# [23:00] <annevk> I wonder if my DreamHost instance got updated as well... Something is wrong with html5.org's diff tool.
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# [23:04] <Hixie_> unlikely
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# [23:09] <annevk> Maybe the output of svn changed...
# [23:09] <annevk> Distributed software is great
# [23:11] <annevk> Hixie_: so, "svn: Can't find a temporary directory: Internal error", wasn't that what you got?
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# [23:16] <Hixie_> huh
# [23:16] <Hixie_> how'd you get that?
# [23:17] <Hixie_> haven't had any trouble with svn, but there's every chance that there's lurking trouble there
# [23:17] <annevk> When I run "svn diff -r 8040:8041 http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps/source"
# [23:18] <annevk> When I run "svn log" things are fine
# [23:18] <Hixie_> i can repro
# [23:18] <Hixie_> looking now
# [23:18] <Hixie_> sounds like a system-level config problem. will report to dreamhost.
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# [23:20] <Hixie_> sent
# [23:20] <Hixie_> i'm guessing it's an issue with /tmp permissions
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# [23:21] <annevk> tweeted
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# [23:47] <rafaelw> smaug____: cool.
# [23:48] <rafaelw> FWIW, I plan to prepair a patch for blink which causes showModalDialog to throw if called within a mutationobserver callback.
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# [23:48] <rafaelw> (soon).
# [23:48] <rafaelw> smaug___: ^^^
# [23:49] <Hixie_> rafaelw: speak to jamesr__, someone the other day was talking abotu making showModalDialog() throw when called from anything that's not a user gesture, which would subsume that
# [23:49] <rafaelw> ok. will do.
# [23:49] <rafaelw> thanks.
# [23:49] <Hixie_> (btw i think the spec says to make it do nothing, not throw)
# [23:49] <rafaelw> ok.
# [23:50] <rafaelw> jamesr__: you got your ears on?
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# Session Close: Wed Jul 10 00:00:00 2013

The end :)