/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-07-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jul 18 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  7. # [00:04] <Hixie_> Domenic_: oh _that's_ what resolve() is for?
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  10. # [00:05] <Domenic_> Hixie_: haha yeah... scrolling through your above questions, we definitely need a "for spec writers" guide.
  11. # [00:06] <Domenic_> Relatedly, I think spec writers should be able to say much less... e.g. "return a fulfilled promise for X" or "fulfill promise with X" instead of talking about the associated resolver.
  12. # [00:06] <Hixie_> that code doesn't make it obvious that some of those callbacks are called synchronously and others aren't
  13. # [00:07] <Hixie_> so it isn't obvious that onload will be set before the function returns
  14. # [00:07] <Domenic_> the `PromiseInit` callback is guaranteed to be called synchronously.
  15. # [00:08] <Domenic_> it's not really a "callback" in the sense we're used to, it's more a scoping mechanism for getting access to the resolver.
  16. # [00:08] <Hixie_> yeah _i_ know that, but it isn't obviosuly in the code
  17. # [00:08] <Hixie_> can i call promise.resolve(promise) ?
  18. # [00:08] <Hixie_> er
  19. # [00:08] <Hixie_> can i call promise2.resolve(promise1) ?
  20. # [00:08] <Domenic_> no, you need to be able to vend promises without vending the ability to change their state
  21. # [00:09] <Domenic_> the other pattern besides new Promise(promiseInit) is to introduce another concept, the "deferred", which combines the resolver functionality and the promise functionality. The code because `var deferred = new Deferred(); doAsyncStuff(function () { deferred.resolve(...); }; return deferred.promise;`
  22. # [00:10] <Domenic_> The feeling is that introducing a new "deferred" concept is worse than using a function as a scoping mechanism.
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  35. # [00:45] <Hixie_> Domenic_: yeah... that pattern is what i have here
  36. # [00:45] <Hixie_> oh wait, my code is all wrong anyway
  37. # [00:46] <Hixie_> since i'm calling .fulfill on the promise not the resolver
  38. # [00:46] <Hixie_> duh
  39. # [00:46] <Hixie_> so i can just call .resolve on the resolver
  40. # [00:46] <Domenic_> yeah. but to get access to it you need to do new Promise(function (resolver) { ... })
  41. # [00:46] <Hixie_> right
  42. # [00:47] <Domenic_> and the ... is either "store resolver in a variable for use when i do all my stuff" or it's "do all my stuff"
  43. # [00:47] <Hixie_> right
  44. # [00:47] <Hixie_> the first is easier to follow
  45. # [00:47] <Hixie_> fixing code now...
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  48. # [00:49] <annevk> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=8065&to=8066 is empty
  49. # [00:49] <Hixie_> uh
  50. # [00:49] <Hixie_> weird
  51. # [00:50] <Hixie_> seems to work for me
  52. # [00:50] <Hixie_> problem must be on your end
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  59. # [00:51] <Hixie_> seems to work as in works when i use svn directly
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  65. # [00:52] <Domenic_> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=8065&;to= works interestingly
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  67. # [00:54] <annevk> Yeah, the whole caching setup is broken
  68. # [00:54] <annevk> Fixed it, but not in any kind of long term way
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  113. # [02:20] <annevk> heycam: so regardless of whether Date is right or not, obj.attr != obj.attr is wrong
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  115. # [02:21] <heycam> annevk, yeah, if I were being consistent, I would disallow Date as an attribute type for the same reasons as sequence<>
  116. # [02:21] <annevk> heycam: I think the frozen concept could help us here, if they make it work for Date
  117. # [02:22] <heycam> annevk, that could work. if HTML then defines that a new object gets returned whenever the value changes.
  118. # [02:22] <annevk> heycam: yeah, I think that's generally the way we want to go
  119. # [02:23] <Hixie_> we have several Date attributes in HTML
  120. # [02:23] <Hixie_> even some non-readonly ones
  121. # [02:23] <annevk> Hixie_: startDate, valueAsDate, what else?
  122. # [02:24] <Hixie_> just those i think
  123. # [02:24] <annevk> Okay, I couldn't find more :-)
  124. # [02:26] <annevk> Use Number for timezoneless, Date for timezone, but then Date is actually timezoneless, so hah!
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  127. # [02:35] <Hixie_> what?
  128. # [02:36] <annevk> Hixie_: I started this thread on es-discuss about frozen Date objects. In that thread <media>.startTime came up which some thought ought to use number, because timezone is not relevant. However, Date objects always return the user's timezone (even when that changes), so they're effectively just a wrapper for a number-based timestamp.
  129. # [02:37] <annevk> Hixie_: and expose some information about the user's whereabouts turns out.
  130. # [02:38] <Hixie_> that... didn't help me understand what is going on
  131. # [02:38] <Hixie_> Date is a number, yes
  132. # [02:38] <Hixie_> a number with the semantic of being a defined moment of time in UT1.
  133. # [02:43] <Hixie_> afk
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  137. # [03:16] <annevk> Much promise FUD, but so little interest to debunk it.
  138. # [03:16] * annevk continues fixing Notifications
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  141. # [03:19] <annevk> Should places that take a DOMString also take a URL?
  142. # [03:20] <annevk> I guess they do in a way since URL stringifies.
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  184. # [07:16] <develCuy> got " Bad value copyright for attribute name on element meta: Keyword copyright is not registered." from http://validator.w3.org/
  185. # [07:17] <develCuy> Can you please help register my company?
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  188. # [07:34] <develCuy> woops, just noticed that "copyright" metatag is not yet available in HTML5
  189. # [07:34] <develCuy> sorry for the noise...
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  249. # [10:41] <kochi> MikeSmith: ping?
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  268. # [12:07] <MikeSmith> kochi: here now
  269. # [12:07] <MikeSmith> sorry, was on the train back from SFC to Tokyo
  270. # [12:08] * Quits: AladinBouzerd (~aladinbou@41.108.17.202) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  271. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> saw your ping from my mobile but too tired to feel like typing on my mobile
  272. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> 夏バテ
  273. # [12:09] <kochi> Oh, take care of yourself.
  274. # [12:09] <kochi> Are you on desktop now, then?
  275. # [12:10] <MikeSmith> yeah at home on my PC now, and was just kidding about 夏バテ。I'm fine. Was just way hotter today than yesterday.
  276. # [12:10] <kochi> yeah, we had rain yesterday.
  277. # [12:12] <kochi> I'm taking too long to update the IME API spec, but hopefully I can wrap up most feedbacks soon to get the next working draft.
  278. # [12:14] <kochi> Can you let me know the relationship between DOM L3 events and UI events (d4e)?
  279. # [12:14] <kochi> DOM L3 event is still not the "standard" but we already have the next version?
  280. # [12:18] <MikeSmith> kochi: I recommend you don't pay attention to the version numbers
  281. # [12:18] <MikeSmith> they don't really correspond to anything meaningful
  282. # [12:19] <MikeSmith> so it's really just "DOM Events" and "UI Events"
  283. # [12:20] <kochi> Hmm, if I want to extend CompositionEvent, which standard spec shall I refer to?
  284. # [12:20] <kochi> in IME API spec
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  290. # [12:24] <MikeSmith> kochi: if you are adding new attributes or methods, then the "DOM Events" spec
  291. # [12:24] <MikeSmith> I think
  292. # [12:24] <Ms2ger> UI Events?
  293. # [12:25] <kochi> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/d4e/raw-file/tip/source_respec.htm ?
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  295. # [12:25] <kochi> Looks like http://www.w3.org/TR/uievents/ doesn't exist.
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  297. # [12:25] <MikeSmith> the only thing that the UI Events spec defines is constructors
  298. # [12:26] <MikeSmith> UI Events has not been published as a WD draft
  299. # [12:26] <MikeSmith> yet
  300. # [12:26] <MikeSmith> hmm, I think you may have to reference both specs, actually
  301. # [12:27] <MikeSmith> if you need to change the constructor
  302. # [12:27] <MikeSmith> which I would imagine you do need to do
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  304. # [12:28] <kochi> Hmm
  305. # [12:28] <kochi> http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/
  306. # [12:29] <kochi> in the example code, there is comment on initCompositionEvent()
  307. # [12:29] <kochi> // Originally introduced (and deprecated) in DOM Level 3:
  308. # [12:29] <kochi> void initCompositionEvent(DOMString typeArg, ...
  309. # [12:29] <Ms2ger> Would be nice if there was serious work done on UI events
  310. # [12:30] <kochi> So if I need to add more attributes in CompositionEvent, should I also need to add these attributes as new arguments for initCompositionEvent()?
  311. # [12:30] <Ms2ger> No
  312. # [12:30] <kochi> Or with the new-style constructor, I don't have to care?
  313. # [12:31] <kochi> Ms2ger: ok, then the latter?
  314. # [12:31] <Ms2ger> You need to add it to the *EventInit dictionary
  315. # [12:32] <kochi> yeah, that sounds nice and extensible.
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  319. # [12:34] <kochi> thanks MikeSmith and Ms2ger!
  320. # [12:35] <kochi> MikeSmith: btw, I recently went to Kyoto and visited Esrille cafe.
  321. # [12:35] <kochi> Shiki-san didn't mention at that time, but he will close the cafe at the end of this month!
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  325. # [12:43] <kochi> https://www.facebook.com/esrillecafe
  326. # [12:44] <MikeSmith> kochi: back now. Was eating somen..
  327. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> eh? is Shiki closing it just for the summer?
  328. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> or permanently?
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  330. # [12:46] <kochi> I don't know what he will do after closing the cafe, but he said he would continue working on his browser.
  331. # [12:47] <MikeSmith> wow, yeah, permanently (just read the facebook page)
  332. # [12:48] <MikeSmith> well, it's too bad they're closing it
  333. # [12:48] * Quits: galant (~galant@unaffiliated/dekiss) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  334. # [12:49] <kochi> Some googlers are planning to visit before closing:
  335. # [12:49] <kochi> https://plus.google.com/u/0/events/cc0340efglqpvut2vso5kqm9oo8
  336. # [12:49] <MikeSmith> ah cool
  337. # [12:51] <MikeSmith> I wonder if maybe his wife is planning on opening up another shop of some kind
  338. # [12:51] <MikeSmith> not a cafe, but something else
  339. # [12:52] <kochi> may be.
  340. # [12:52] <kochi> i'm heading home now...
  341. # [12:52] <kochi> see you!
  342. # [12:52] <MikeSmith> cheers
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  387. # [14:24] * GPHemsley wonders why the entirety of Dublin Core is not registered as meta extensions.
  388. # [14:25] <Ms2ger> Oh, *that*
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  391. # [14:33] * Ms2ger kicks tobie
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  467. # [17:02] <reyre_> what should webvtt parser do if it encounters non utf8 characters? right now i only see that it should interpret the data as utf8 not that it should check that it is and replace, etc
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  473. # [17:06] <SimonSapin> reyre_: webvtt refers to RFC3629 for UTF-8, which apparently leaves this unspecified … I’d recommend decoding per http://encoding.spec.whatwg.org/ , that is decode invalid bytes as U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER
  474. # [17:07] <SimonSapin> annevk: does that sound right?
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  476. # [17:09] <annevk> SimonSapin: yeah, why does WebVTT refer to 3629? That sounds like a regression
  477. # [17:10] <annevk> Pretty sure it used to refer to the Encoding Standard by means of referring something in HTML
  478. # [17:10] <SimonSapin> no idea, I’m just reading http://dev.w3.org/html5/webvtt/#the-webvtt-file-format-syntax
  479. # [17:10] <Ms2ger> Probably forked before Hixie_ referenced Encoding
  480. # [17:11] <annevk> reyre_: there's no such thing as a non-utf-8 character btw, it would be a non-utf-8 byte sequence
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  482. # [17:12] <annevk> SimonSapin: reyre_: the parser part does refer the correct algorithm, but still mentions 3629... Editor seems confused
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  507. # [17:31] <reyre> annevk, SimonSapin: okay so replacing utf8-8-byte sequences with the replace character is probably what we want to do
  508. # [17:31] <reyre> annevk, SimonSapin: thanks :)
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  511. # [17:39] <annevk> reyre: if this is for the JavaScript impl, you should just use TextDecoder; it'll do that
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  515. # [17:41] <reyre> annevk: where can i find that?
  516. # [17:41] <annevk> reyre: Encoding Standard defines it, Gecko implements it
  517. # [17:42] <reyre> ah okay, i think we might not want that because we'd want other implementations to be able to use it as well, not just gecko
  518. # [17:43] <reyre> annevk: andreas has decided on using some shumway code https://github.com/mozilla/shumway/blob/master/src/avm2/util.js#L448
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  520. # [17:43] <annevk> reyre: all browsers will eventually implement that API
  521. # [17:44] <annevk> reyre: it seems silly to reimplement utf-8 everywhere
  522. # [17:45] <reyre> annevk: if you want to chime in on the discussion it's here https://github.com/andreasgal/vtt.js/issues/43
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  565. # [18:47] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  566. # [18:48] <reyre> annevk: so do you think using gecko would be better then shumway?
  567. # [18:49] <annevk> I don't understand what that means
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  569. # [18:50] <reyre> annevk: so for the utf8 encoding stuff. you said that you thought using gecko's utf8 TextDecoder would be better than using Shumway's version (which i linked)
  570. # [18:51] <annevk> It's not Gecko's. It's the web platform's way of doing text decoding. Shumway could be patched to use that, too.
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  573. # [18:52] <reyre> annevk: oh okay. i thought you said that gecko had a particular implementation of it though?
  574. # [18:53] <annevk> reyre: I think I said we had an implementation, meaning you could use it
  575. # [18:53] <annevk> reyre: http://encoding.spec.whatwg.org/#api
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  578. # [18:54] <reyre> annevk: okay cool, thanks
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  585. # [19:07] <Hixie_> hober: you around?
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  624. # [20:09] <hober> Hixie_: yo
  625. # [20:09] <hober> Hixie_: sorry, was in a meeting
  626. # [20:09] * Hixie_ wonders what he wanted to ask hober
  627. # [20:10] <hober> heh
  628. # [20:10] <Hixie_> oh, putImageDataHD()
  629. # [20:10] <Hixie_> i've heard rumours that y'all dropped it as soon as you added it, or something
  630. # [20:10] <Hixie_> but i can't find any feedback on the matter
  631. # [20:10] <Hixie_> any chance you can get dino or someone to update the list on what's going on with that?
  632. # [20:11] <hober> yeah, fair enough. i'll bug him to write an email about it
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  710. # [22:59] <dglazkov> Hixie_: for <link>, where's the text that specifies what happens when "href" value is changed?
  711. # [22:59] <Hixie_> interesting question
  712. # [22:59] <dglazkov> Hixie_: I went looking, but I couldn't easily find.
  713. # [22:59] <dglazkov> But I did fill out your survey form! :)
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  716. # [23:01] <Hixie_> dglazkov: :-)
  717. # [23:01] <Hixie_> dglazkov: looks like changing href doesn't cause a reload, per spec
  718. # [23:01] <Hixie_> dglazkov: do browsers reload?
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  720. # [23:04] <Hixie_> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2411 suggests they do
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  722. # [23:04] <Hixie_> dglazkov: guess it's a spec bug
  723. # [23:04] <dglazkov> yay bugs
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  736. # [23:18] <gallant> are there paid jobs in whatwg and w3c?
  737. # [23:20] * Joins: mven (~mven@206.194.49.220)
  738. # [23:20] <gsnedders> The WHATWG has no employees (or, indeed, legal status whatsoever). There are people paid to work on WHATWG-published specifications, however. The W3C has staff for a variety of things, from sysadmins to staff contacts for WGs to membership development, etc.
  739. # [23:20] <gsnedders> gallant: ^^
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  741. # [23:29] <dglazkov> Hixie_: do you want me to repurpose https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22038 or create a new bug?
  742. # [23:29] <Hixie_> either way
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  748. # [23:32] <annevk_> hober: you guys keep track of the WHATWG list right? E.g. the Notifications stuff?
  749. # [23:33] * annevk_ is now known as annevk
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  755. # [23:43] <annevk> https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/378800000152914804/f5d064aa7d8d22112c590281a074cdde_bigger.jpeg is amazing
  756. # [23:43] * Quits: erichynds (~ehynds@64.206.121.41) (Quit: erichynds)
  757. # [23:44] <annevk> https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/378800000152914804/f5d064aa7d8d22112c590281a074cdde.jpeg (somewhat bigger)
  758. # [23:47] <Ms2ger> Is that you?
  759. # [23:51] <gallant> thanks
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  763. # Session Close: Fri Jul 19 00:00:00 2013

The end :)