/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-08-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Aug 08 00:00:01 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:01] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webperf/raw-file/tip/specs/ResourcePriorities/Overview.html
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  7. # [00:03] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: Yeah, that's what I'm looking for. Cool.
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  9. # [00:08] <jgraham> I'm surprised they didn't turn it into loadpriority=integer
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  11. # [00:08] <jgraham> Over-engineer all the things
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  13. # [00:10] <annevk> that's what we got requested for XHR
  14. # [00:10] <annevk> it may very well return
  15. # [00:11] <annevk> although talking to our HTTP guys a couple of weeks ago it seems that'd be pretty premature optimization, though lazyload might be good
  16. # [00:11] <annevk> even better would be to load the images the user is looking at first
  17. # [00:11] <jgraham> Yeah, I don't at all trust that authors are better at resource prioritization than browsers
  18. # [00:12] <jgraham> Well there's no reason you can't prioritise images that would be visible, if you are a browser
  19. # [00:12] <jgraham> It's not architecturally pure since it couples networking and layout, but that happens already, so...
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  24. # [00:18] <MikeSmith> A is a classmate of B
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  27. # [00:20] <MikeSmith> B is at risk of random bullying from A
  28. # [00:22] <jgraham> Oh, I guess just "A is at risk from B" works
  29. # [00:22] * jgraham doesn't think Hixie will like these suggestions :)
  30. # [00:23] <MikeSmith> annevk: slightlyoff doesn't need to write specs; he just thinks of stuff and people implement it
  31. # [00:23] <miketaylr> "A is a kidney donor for B"
  32. # [00:23] <MikeSmith> heh
  33. # [00:24] <slightlyoff> damn, y'all
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  36. # [00:26] <annevk> slightlyoff, thoughts on specification modularization in long form might work ;) I might not even disagree, it's just, you know, easier said than done
  37. # [00:27] <slightlyoff> annevk: sure
  38. # [00:27] <slightlyoff> but I warn you that my long form is LOOOOONG
  39. # [00:30] <annevk> slightlyoff: you're gonna write a spec to rule them all? ;)
  40. # [00:33] * annevk -> zzz
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  43. # [00:38] <slightlyoff> annevk: nah, but I'll make a nuanced case for an "integration phase"
  44. # [00:38] <slightlyoff> = )
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  46. # [00:39] <Hixie> "A is in unrequited love with B" is good, but unfortunately implies a negative reverse relationship. "is boss over" is similar. "is at risk of random bullying from" is actually the best so far...
  47. # [00:39] <annevk> I can see XMLHttpRequest ending up in Fetch eventually. Dunno about URL and Encoding et al. Seem pretty unrelated.
  48. # [00:39] <nimbu> slightlyoff: WELCOME TO SFFFFFFFFFFFF
  49. # [00:39] <slightlyoff> thanks!
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  53. # [00:41] <annevk> where the parties are full of minor internet celebrities and the streets full of hobos
  54. # [00:41] <jgraham> Hixie: "is scared of"?
  55. # [00:41] * jgraham doesn't actually think that's a good idea but wants to know if that's the right kind of relationship
  56. # [00:43] <Philip`> "idolises"?
  57. # [00:44] <annevk> Hixie: tangentially?
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  61. # [00:47] <Hixie> jgraham: yeah, that would work
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  63. # [00:48] <Hixie> though it's more "is not scared of" that has the connotations i'm looking for
  64. # [00:48] <Hixie> "likes", maybe
  65. # [00:48] <Hixie> "is a fan of"
  66. # [00:48] <Hixie> "is familiar with"
  67. # [00:48] <Hixie> that one might work best so far
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  82. # [01:07] <Hixie> i wish there was a "last person to touch this bug" field in bugzilla
  83. # [01:07] <Hixie> it would make a lot of my workflows easier
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  94. #
  95. # Session Start: Thu Aug 08 10:05:29 2013
  96. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  97. # [10:05] * Now talking in #whatwg
  98. # [10:05] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  99. # [10:05] * Set by smaug____!~chatzilla@GGZYYCCCXVIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi on Wed Mar 21 17:14:24
  100. # [10:05] <krijnh> Someone needed a nipple twister?
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  104. # [10:12] <Ms2ger> Those Dutchies...
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  124. # [11:00] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: can we change default assignee in bugzilla for cssom specs?
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  127. # [11:17] <matjas> Ms2ger: no, those files are not in SVN either
  128. # [11:17] <matjas> seems weird these files are not under version control
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  130. # [11:21] <annevk> GAP IN THE LOGS!!1
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  132. # [11:27] <zcorpan> annevk: good thing there's also logbot
  133. # [11:29] <annevk> matjas: entities.json is imported I think from http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-entity-names/
  134. # [11:29] <annevk> zcorpan: !
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  136. # [11:31] <annevk> I wish Hixie put a day or so into cleaning up his scripts and open sourcing the whole thing. Would make things a bit more hackable.
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  141. # [11:34] <gsnedders> Or just open source them as the mess they are and let others do the tidying.
  142. # [11:37] <annevk> Yeah either way. He'd need to refactor the bits where he puts his password directly in the file though.
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  145. # [11:40] <matjas> annevk: +1
  146. # [11:40] <gsnedders> Or just open source it with [my_password_here] :)
  147. # [11:40] <matjas> gsnedders: +2
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  149. # [11:41] <aleray> hi, I'm interested by the new audio possibilities in HTML5. I've seen some ways to load audio data using XHR. While it works for small files (like 1Mb), chromium always crashes on big files (like 50 Mb).
  150. # [11:42] <gsnedders> aleray: How are you trying to read the file from XHR?
  151. # [11:42] <aleray> is this XHR loading method appropriate for big files?
  152. # [11:42] <aleray> gsnedders, basically what is described at: http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/webaudio/intro/
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  154. # [11:44] <gsnedders> aleray: Try setting xhr.responseType = "arraybuffer", you'll get a typed array back — might work better?
  155. # [11:44] <gsnedders> Oh, that tutorial already does.
  156. # [11:44] <annevk> aleray: our bad, we haven't figured out how to describe an IO Stream yet and therefore XMLHttpRequest does not expose one
  157. # [11:45] <annevk> aleray: although crashing is never an appropriate response so you might want to file a bug on Chrome
  158. # [11:46] <aleray> gsnedders, in the example i'm trying to follow 'arraybuffer' is indeed the specified response type
  159. # [11:47] <aleray> annevk, ok I will. SO it means that the audio api isn't mature enough yet to be used with large files?
  160. # [11:47] <aleray> oups s/SO/So/
  161. # [11:47] <annevk> aleray: did you try in Firefox? We might do better...
  162. # [11:48] * annevk has not played with Web Audio, but knows why XMLHttpRequest doesn't support streaming data yet
  163. # [11:48] <aleray> maybe I can describe what I'm trying to achieve so you can give me some guidance if you don't mind
  164. # [11:48] * gsnedders is surprised that a 50MB file doesn't work fine
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  166. # [11:50] <aleray> basically I'm trying to do a two tracks audio editor. I have seven source files of about 50Mb each and I'd like the website editor to be able to place fragments of those files on the two audio tracks to create compositions.
  167. # [11:50] <darobin> who made https://github.com/whatwg/html-mirror ?
  168. # [11:52] <annevk> darobin: foolip
  169. # [11:54] <annevk> aleray: I don't know enough about this, but maybe segmenting the files would make it work better, i.e. implement the streaming yourself
  170. # [11:54] <aleray> gsnedders, annevk does it sound duable for you? My approach at the moment is to play media fragments (like file.ogg#t=10,20) one after the other (not yet a composition, more like a playlist actually).
  171. # [11:54] <darobin> annevk: ta
  172. # [11:54] <aleray> annevk, so cutting the files server side? and still using XHR to load the hard-cutted fragments?
  173. # [11:54] <annevk> aleray: it sounds fine, but honestly I don't know what the memory limits are these days
  174. # [11:54] <annevk> aleray: yeah, I guess, just so you have smaller files
  175. # [11:55] <annevk> aleray: you could also try to experiment a bit to see what the limit is in various browsers
  176. # [11:55] <annevk> aleray: e.g. if you only load one 50MB file, does that work?
  177. # [11:55] <aleray> annevk, thanks. I will try this!
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  186. # [12:12] <annevk> smaug____: yo, can you look at the public-webapps thread regarding custom element callbacks?
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  195. # [12:58] <karlcow> <Hixie> in other news, i need a term that doesn't really mean anything, but expresses the property of A being something relative to B, without implying a mutual relationship, and that brings to mind the idea of control or authority
  196. # [13:02] <karlcow> A is the teacher of B, A is the father of B, A is the boss of B, A is the captain of B (boat), A is the mountain guide of B, …
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  211. # [13:44] <zcorpan> karlcow: teacher means B is student of A; similarly for the others
  212. # [13:44] <zcorpan> karlcow: the spec now has "is familiar with"
  213. # [13:49] <karlcow> zcorpan: agreed. Not sure about the context but "is a teacher" != "is a professor" not bijective.
  214. # [13:49] <Ms2ger> pupil?
  215. # [13:49] <karlcow> ooops
  216. # [13:49] <karlcow> still too early…
  217. # [13:50] <karlcow> Ms2ger: yes :)
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  224. # [14:14] <Ancil> annevk: hi
  225. # [14:15] <Ancil> annevk: I have question regarding XMLHTTPRequest and force preflight
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  227. # [14:20] <Ancil> annevk: is it required to make preflight request for synchronous XHR with upload event listeners like onloadstart registered
  228. # [14:21] <Ancil> annevk: does a preflight request for both sync and async XHR when upload event listeners are registered
  229. # [14:21] <Ancil> annevk: but Chrome doesn't
  230. # [14:22] <Ancil> annevk: which is the right behavior?
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  232. # [14:23] <Ancil> annevk: *Firefox does prefilight for both sync and async XHR with upload listeners
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  234. # [14:25] <annevk> Ancil: Chrome never does a preflight for those?
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  236. # [14:25] <annevk> Ancil: I think the specification requires one, but I keep forgetting why it does :/
  237. # [14:26] <Ancil> annevk: Chrome does preflight only for async XHR
  238. # [14:26] * GPHemsley wonders if "A trusts B" is not already taken
  239. # [14:26] <annevk> Ancil: might be an oversight in Chrome then...
  240. # [14:26] * annevk looks in spec
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  243. # [14:27] <annevk> Ancil: ooh, so yeah, that seems like a Gecko bug
  244. # [14:27] <annevk> Ancil: the reason it's not required for sync is because the events won't dispatch anyway
  245. # [14:27] <Ancil> annevk: as per my understanding the spec says the "If the synchronous flag is unset and one or more event listeners are registered on the XMLHttpRequestUpload object, set the upload events flag. " and set force preflight when upload events flag is set
  246. # [14:27] <Ancil> yeah
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  249. # [14:28] <annevk> Ancil: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=Core pretty please
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  251. # [14:29] <Ancil> annevk: So the chrome behavior is the right one.
  252. # [14:29] <annevk> Ancil: yeah
  253. # [14:29] <Ancil> annevk: ok, I will log a bug
  254. # [14:30] <annevk> Ancil: ta
  255. # [14:30] <Ancil> annevk: thanks
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  266. # [15:25] <annevk> MikeSmith: why are you reassigning resolved bugs?
  267. # [15:25] <MikeSmith> annevk: I'm just pushing buttons
  268. # [15:26] <MikeSmith> it was easier to do it that way
  269. # [15:26] <MikeSmith> the CSSOM bugs
  270. # [15:26] <MikeSmith> changed the default assignee
  271. # [15:26] <MikeSmith> and figured while I'm doing it to change the open ones too
  272. # [15:26] <annevk> It makes the history harder to trace and also spams me
  273. # [15:26] <annevk> Oh well
  274. # [15:27] <MikeSmith> sorry, didn't realize to after I pushed the button
  275. # [15:27] <MikeSmith> I can try to change them back if you want
  276. # [15:27] <annevk> nah leave it
  277. # [15:27] <MikeSmith> k
  278. # [15:27] <Ms2ger> They were probably wrong anyway
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  285. # [15:46] <annevk> Couple of my Shadow DOM bugs were resolved with https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/rev/dbf47f602628 as pointer...
  286. # [15:47] <annevk> Thousands of lines of Apple plist disaster...
  287. # [15:48] <Ms2ger> Wow, that's pretty crappy
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  289. # [15:49] <annevk> I guess I should just leave it and review again at some point in the future... Trying to figure out what changed seems like a non-starter. Even looking at just the HTML...
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  291. # [15:50] <Ms2ger> "Refactor"
  292. # [15:50] <Ms2ger> "Deprecate"
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  302. # [16:03] <zcorpan> good news, everyone, http://www.w3.org/TR/html/ now points to HTML5 instead of XHTML 1.0
  303. # [16:04] <darobin_> it only took... nah, I don't want to know how long it took in fact :)
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  306. # [16:24] * gsnedders wonders whether he should do as Bachelor's project something like proving various assertions in the HTML parser
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  308. # [16:27] <gsnedders> (Things like whether you can ever end up in foreign content while not being)
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  311. # [16:28] <gsnedders> (That all the fragment case parentheticals can only happen in the fragment case.)
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  320. # [16:53] <darobin> gsnedders: or you could prove that the parser is Turing complete
  321. # [16:54] <gsnedders> That's trivial
  322. # [16:54] <gsnedders> Oh, wait, complete.
  323. # [16:54] <gsnedders> Duh.
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  325. # [16:55] <gsnedders> You need a Turing machine is implement the parser, that's clear.
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  329. # [17:01] <gsnedders> If you restrict the input to the parser to be finite, I'm fairly certain you don't need a TM to run it.
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  332. # [17:02] <gsnedders> And I think you should be able to derive a proof based on that that the language itself is not Turing complete.
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  335. # [17:04] <darobin> yes, if you can prove that you don't need a TM to process it (ie turn it into a DOM), then you can prove that it's not TC
  336. # [17:05] <darobin> but I wouldn't be shocked if there were nasty tricks you could do with adoption and such that would actually be universal
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  338. # [17:08] <gsnedders> In general, you need a TM to process it because you need the infinite memory to deal with an infinite input stream.
  339. # [17:09] <gsnedders> Adoption is deliberately capped to avoid making it run-away powerful, but its cloning at all might be enough to be able to implement a TM on.
  340. # [17:09] <darobin> mmmm
  341. # [17:09] <darobin> I don't see why infinite memory means you need a TM
  342. # [17:09] <darobin> anything else can have an infinite memory
  343. # [17:10] <Ms2ger> FSMs can't
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  345. # [17:16] <darobin> well, not absolutely everything :)
  346. # [17:16] <darobin> but pushdown automata can for instance
  347. # [17:17] <Ms2ger> Well, sure
  348. # [17:17] <Ms2ger> Those are almost Turing machines
  349. # [17:18] <darobin> almost doesn't count
  350. # [17:18] <Ms2ger> All you need is a queue instead of a stack
  351. # [17:19] <gsnedders> Do PDAs not have a finite input, though?
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  353. # [17:20] <ricea> P is almost NP :-P
  354. # [17:20] <Ms2ger> That may be the case
  355. # [17:21] * Ms2ger doesn't remember much attention given to infinite inputs
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  357. # [17:23] <gsnedders> Sure, a PDA can use theoretically infinite stack and infinite states, but the input must be finite.
  358. # [17:23] <gsnedders> I believe only a unrestricted grammar allows infinite inputs, and hence a TM is needed on that basis.
  359. # [17:25] <Ms2ger> Infinite states too?
  360. # [17:26] <gsnedders> I believe so?
  361. # [17:26] <Ms2ger> My definition only allows a finite set of states
  362. # [17:27] <Ms2ger> (Rich, "Automata, Computability, and Complexity", p. 249)
  363. # [17:27] <gsnedders> No, you must need a TM to parse HTML, due to the multiple stacks, surely?
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  365. # [17:27] <Ms2ger> Most likely, yes
  366. # [17:27] <Ms2ger> But that's not a proof :)
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  368. # [17:27] <gsnedders> No, it's not. :)
  369. # [17:28] * Ms2ger wonders if HTML contradicts the pumping lemma
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  371. # [17:28] <gsnedders> Need to prove you cannot reduce to one stack. Which I think should be trivial to give an example of.
  372. # [17:28] <gsnedders> Once you've done that, then the proof is easy.
  373. # [17:29] * erichynds is now known as ehynds
  374. # [17:30] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: It doesn't, if it is (like I think!) an unrestricted grammar.
  375. # [17:34] <gsnedders> (The pumping lemma obviously always holds true for unrestricted grammars.)
  376. # [17:35] <gsnedders> (More interesting, IMO, is whether *conforming* HTML is context-free)
  377. # [17:36] <Ms2ger> Mmm
  378. # [17:37] <gsnedders> *interesting question
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  380. # [17:37] <MikeSmith> I would think it should be, as a goal of defining the conformance rules
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  382. # [17:38] <MikeSmith> that is, make it a requirement that determines what the conformance rules are
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  384. # [17:39] <MikeSmith> rather than what we have now, where the rationale for some of the conformance rules are just arbitrary (which is fine a long as they don't break the must-be-a-content-free-grammar requirement)
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  388. # [17:44] <MikeSmith> in other news, nice to see discussions of fine points of implementation realities like http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2013Aug/0053.html (from Marcus) taking place on the TAG list. Massive contrast to where the TAG was at only a few months back.a
  389. # [17:44] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: What's the justification for requiring it to be context-free?
  390. # [17:45] <gsnedders> Heh, Marcus has been playing around with audio stuff for ages, mostly doing stuff like data URIs and the audio element.
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  392. # [17:46] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: for one thing I guess it makes it expressable in some common formalisms that it otherwise wouldn't be expressible in
  393. # [17:47] <MikeSmith> I don't mean a formalism for expressing parsing rules
  394. # [17:47] <MikeSmith> but instead a formalism for expressing what a conforming document looks like
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  448. # [19:46] <TabAtkins> So hey, fun proposals here from heycam about how to make the SVG DOM suck less: http://dev.w3.org/SVG/proposals/improving-svg-dom/
  449. # [19:47] <TabAtkins> Opinions desired on www-svg
  450. # [19:47] <TabAtkins> Or here, whatever.
  451. # [19:50] <GPHemsley> is there wide support for the 'let' keyword yet?
  452. # [19:50] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  453. # [19:50] <TabAtkins> GPHemsley: Supported in FF only right now, I believe.
  454. # [19:50] <GPHemsley> ah, that's what I thought
  455. # [19:50] <GPHemsley> thanks
  456. # [19:50] <TabAtkins> And you have to opt in via some incantation in type=''
  457. # [19:50] <GPHemsley> right
  458. # [19:50] <GPHemsley> var it is
  459. # [19:51] <TabAtkins> I recently switched my hobby hacking to FF just so I could get some of those sweet new features.
  460. # [19:51] <Ms2ger> Fx, you mean?
  461. # [19:51] <GPHemsley> yeah, they're pretty awesome
  462. # [19:51] <TabAtkins> Screw that.
  463. # [19:51] <GPHemsley> Ms2ger: I find that even official text often says "FF" or "Ff"
  464. # [19:52] <Ms2ger> They're wrong :)
  465. # [19:52] <TabAtkins> Quit trying to make Fx happen. It's not going to happen.
  466. # [19:52] <zewt> firefox = ff
  467. # [19:52] <zewt> sorry, that's the reality :P
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  469. # [19:53] <zewt> (also, who the heck would think "fx" would be a good abbreviation for firefox? it's terrible)
  470. # [19:53] <Ms2ger> f5x
  471. # [19:53] <TabAtkins> f5x, *maybe*, due to existing precedent.
  472. # [19:54] <TabAtkins> Dammit, Ms2ger, you scooped me.
  473. # [19:56] <Domenic_> svg thing looks very cool
  474. # [19:56] <zewt> TabAtkins Ice Cream(r)
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  485. # [20:14] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: hmm, i don't like the no-namespace proposal
  486. # [20:14] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Yeah, me neither. Just put them in the HTML namespace and be done with it.
  487. # [20:15] <TabAtkins> I'll be writing up my own feedback on the proposal, and it's part of what I'm responding with.
  488. # [20:15] <zcorpan> it's also wrong about createElement which always uses HTML namespace (per spec at least)
  489. # [20:16] <TabAtkins> Ah, that's probably why heycam|away did the null namespace thing.
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  491. # [20:18] <zcorpan> i also see little reason to have both graphics and viewport compared to just graphics
  492. # [20:19] <TabAtkins> The main reason, I think, is that there are some attributes that make sense on the root viewport but not nested, and vice versa.
  493. # [20:19] <TabAtkins> So it's weird to reuse the same thing for both.
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  496. # [20:23] <zcorpan> *shrug*
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  501. # [20:26] <Hixie> heycam|away: http://dev.w3.org/SVG/proposals/improving-svg-dom/ is only an improvement if we remove the old stuff. If we don't, then we're just doubling the complexity.
  502. # [20:27] <zcorpan> yeah, i was about to say, i'm not sure i like the new namespace idea at all
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  512. # [21:02] <Ms2ger> Hixie, so, an object that supports indexed or named getters needs to be proxy-like
  513. # [21:03] <Ms2ger> Hixie, so if Window has a indexed getter, it needs to be proxy-like as well
  514. # [21:03] <Ms2ger> (Ignore the named getter, because it ends up in the gps)
  515. # [21:03] <Ms2ger> gsp
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  522. # [21:23] <TabAtkins> Hixie: We obviously can't remove the old stuff yet, but the plan is to eventually kill it, yes.
  523. # [21:23] <TabAtkins> By dangling irresistible carrots in the form of not-totally-fucked-up APIs.
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  535. # [21:55] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Why is that a use case? Hixie wouldn't accept that.
  536. # [21:55] <Ms2ger> Hixie doesn't accept a lot
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  552. # [22:36] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: when has carrots enabled us to remove anything?
  553. # [22:36] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Indeed, so MikeSmith need justify himself better.
  554. # [22:36] <TabAtkins> We kill prefixes, for example. Not every time, but often enough.
  555. # [22:37] <Ms2ger> Well, yes
  556. # [22:37] <Ms2ger> Because everyone writes their code expecting the non-prefixed version
  557. # [22:38] <Ms2ger> And usually also all the possible prefixed ones
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  559. # [22:41] <gsnedders> -I-will-prefix-your-face: true;
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  562. # [22:45] <Hixie> ms2ger: maybe "proxylike" doesn't mean what i think it means? I mean "like WindowProxy".
  563. # [22:45] <TabAtkins> We're killing XSLT, for example.
  564. # [22:45] <Hixie> let's not count that chicken quite yet.
  565. # [22:45] <TabAtkins> Things do die from misuse, as least enough for them to be removed.
  566. # [22:45] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Yeah, sure.
  567. # [22:45] <TabAtkins> s/misuse/lack of use/
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  569. # [22:47] * gsnedders has doubts about whether XSLT will so easily die
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  572. # [22:47] <TabAtkins> Even if it never does, though, I think the argument that you shouldn't ever duplicate functionality is wrong-headed.
  573. # [22:49] <gsnedders> Cut one off and two appear in its place… The web platform is a Hydra…
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  576. # [22:50] <TabAtkins> True. ^_^^
  577. # [22:51] <TabAtkins> ...I'm gonna pretend the third eye was intentional, and a commentary on gsnedder's quote.
  578. # [22:51] <zewt> *poke* _^^
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  583. # [22:56] <Hixie> TabAtkins: generally i am strongly against duplicating the slightest thing, though i would obviously be open to arguments on a case-by-case basis. but this is a whole different scale of duplication.
  584. # [22:57] <TabAtkins> I know you are, and we've discussed this before, and I think you're really wrong. It puts the potential confusion of authors having to look at two syntaxes over the persistent pain of authors having to use a single, terrible syntax.
  585. # [22:58] <TabAtkins> The SVG DOM can't be defended on *any* pragmatic grounds. Its sole good point is that it already exists.
  586. # [23:01] <TabAtkins> In 5 years, there will be the SVG subset of HTML which works nice and makes people happy, and the weird legacy syntax that nobody likes and is only used by legacy pages.
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  589. # [23:04] <zcorpan> if we do this, it should behind a pref for a few years so we can get it right instead of duplicating everything once a year
  590. # [23:04] <Hixie> the problem is that "is only used by legacy pages" is just not how it'll turn out
  591. # [23:05] <Hixie> because "legacy pages" are copied and pasted, are part of templates, are maintained for decades, etc
  592. # [23:05] <Hixie> in practice all it does is mean that authors have to know both languages
  593. # [23:05] <Hixie> and we have to define how they interact, because different templates end up in the same page using both features
  594. # [23:05] <Hixie> etc
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  596. # [23:06] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Yeah, definitely.
  597. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Transition pain is a worthwhile cost sometimes.
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  610. # [23:25] <Hixie> TabAtkins: sometimes.
  611. # [23:26] <TabAtkins> That's what I said. ^_^
  612. # [23:26] <Hixie> i was agreeing :-)
  613. # [23:26] <Hixie> TabAtkins: a lot of the time, when people suggest replacing (duplicating) an api, though, they tend to overestimate the cost of the existing api, overestimate the worth of the new api in comparison, and underestimate the cost of the transition
  614. # [23:27] <Hixie> in part because they forget that the new api will never be as perfect as the design, due to the attrition experienced during initial implementation and deployment
  615. # [23:27] <TabAtkins> It's hard to overestimate the terribleness of the SVG DOM.
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  617. # [23:29] <zcorpan> but the new API isn't awesome compared to just using DOM Core
  618. # [23:29] <Hixie> honestly i think the biggest pain of the SVG DOM is really that the whole approach of elements for graphics isn't particularly wieldy
  619. # [23:29] <Hixie> i don't know how much is just api decisions
  620. # [23:29] <Hixie> mathml suffers from a similar, but more obvious, problem
  621. # [23:33] <zcorpan> how much are people using the SVG DOM?
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  623. # [23:34] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Most of the new API is removing baseVal/animVal, and some of the more ridiculously overwrought mistakes, like .numberOfItems
  624. # [23:34] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: that doesn't answer my question :-P
  625. # [23:34] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Sorry, wasn't answering that question. ^_^
  626. # [23:35] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Probably enough that we can't just drop it immediately.
  627. # [23:35] <zcorpan> oh, ok, heh
  628. # [23:35] <TabAtkins> If we could, then yay! Let's just do it.
  629. # [23:35] <zcorpan> let's find out before jumping through hoops we don't know we have to jump through
  630. # [23:37] <Domenic_> isn't d3 using the svg dom?
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  632. # [23:37] <Domenic_> that's used by a ton of people, we've built like 5 apps for large banks just in the last 6 months
  633. # [23:39] <TabAtkins> Yeah, the modern untick in popularity, and attendant libraries, are the big thing that would prevent us from doing it, I think.
  634. # [23:39] * zcorpan sees https://github.com/mbostock/d3/blob/master/d3.js#L5209
  635. # [23:41] <pdr> notice d3 doesn't use animValue and instead rolls it by hand
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  640. # [23:45] <zcorpan> Hixie: i think non-configurable is the new term for ReadOnly
  641. # [23:46] <zcorpan> new as of ES5 or so
  642. # [23:46] * Hixie mumbles something about this being a perfect example of duplication being confusing :-P
  643. # [23:46] <heycam> zcorpan, doesn't createElement() put an element into no namespace when you're in an XML document?
  644. # [23:46] <heycam> that was the main reason I allowed for both in the proposal
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  646. # [23:47] <zcorpan> heycam: nope. http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-document-createelement
  647. # [23:47] <zcorpan> some browsers might still do that, i guess
  648. # [23:47] <heycam> zcorpan, huh!
  649. # [23:47] <heycam> yeah I think I just tested in Gecko and assumed that must be the standard behaviour
  650. # [23:48] <zcorpan> in gecko it depends on the mime type, iirc
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  652. # [23:48] <heycam> mime type, and not "is an XML document" flag?
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  654. # [23:49] <heycam> (maybe it's the same thing)
  655. # [23:49] <zcorpan> right
  656. # [23:49] <Domenic_> non-writable is the new ReadOnly
  657. # [23:49] <Domenic_> non-configurable is the new DontDelete
  658. # [23:49] <zcorpan> application/xhtml+xml -> HTML namespace, image/svg+xml -> SVG namespace, application/xml -> no namespace
  659. # [23:50] <zcorpan> Domenic_: oh, right
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  661. # [23:50] <heycam> createElement() in an image/svg+xml document puts things in the SVG namespace? I don't think that's true is it?
  662. # [23:50] <zcorpan> maybe not :-)
  663. # [23:51] <zcorpan> might just be xhtml+xml
  664. # [23:51] <heycam> might be
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  667. # [23:51] <zcorpan> i'm saying this from memory. might be all lies :-P
  668. # [23:51] * heycam finds coffee
  669. # [23:51] * zcorpan finds a bed
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  671. # [23:51] <gsnedders> Per the DOM spec it always does HTML NS.
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  673. # [23:52] <zcorpan> yes, that was established
  674. # [23:52] <gsnedders> I can't read, okay!
  675. # [23:52] <zcorpan> we were just making up what we think gecko does instead of testing what gecko does
  676. # [23:53] <zcorpan> because we lack coffee and sleep
  677. # [23:53] <zcorpan> anyway
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  679. # [23:53] <gsnedders> Seem legit.
  680. # [23:54] * Quits: cheron1 (~cheron@dslb-084-059-188-010.pools.arcor-ip.net) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  681. # [23:58] <smaug____> heycam|away: implementations do something and specs say something else. It is not clear what is the right createElement behavior
  682. # [23:59] * Quits: vcarbune (~vcarbune@84-75-248-2.dclient.hispeed.ch) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  683. # [23:59] * Joins: tobie_ (~tobielang@46.189.28.108)
  684. # Session Close: Fri Aug 09 00:00:00 2013

The end :)