/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-08-16 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Aug 16 00:00:01 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [00:08] <heycam> TabAtkins, Chrome implements CSS Variables, right?
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  8. # [00:08] <heycam> TabAtkins, I can't seem to find how to turn it on or get it to work
  9. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> Yes, but prefixed and behind a flag. ;_;
  10. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> I think it's in "Experimental CSS Features"
  11. # [00:09] <heycam> TabAtkins, mayb e Enable experimental Web Platform features?
  12. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> Sure, maybe.
  13. # [00:09] <heycam> can't find Experimental CSS Features in about:flags
  14. # [00:10] <heycam> TabAtkins, that did it, thanks :)
  15. # [00:11] <heycam> (works without a prefix though, so that's good)
  16. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> Oh, we changed it! Nice!
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  18. # [00:24] <zcorpan> hmm, webkit/blink impl of setProperty(prop, val, '') doesn't unset !important, instead it does nothing if prop is currently important
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  20. # [00:26] <zcorpan> you have to call removeProperty first if you want to remove the important
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  23. # [00:29] <zcorpan> IE10 does that as well
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  29. # [00:38] <Hixie> man, nsAttrAndChildArray is not deeply documented
  30. # [00:39] <Hixie> at least, not as far as i can find
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  33. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: "Does nothing" meaning the call is silently ignored?
  34. # [00:49] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: yes
  35. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> Interesting.
  36. # [00:50] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: i guess conceptually like a declarative not-important decl
  37. # [00:50] <zcorpan> which might be desirable
  38. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> I can't think of a way in which it would be desirable. ^_^
  39. # [00:52] <zcorpan> let's say you write your css and you want something to *not* change style because of some js library that changes styles of things, so you put !important
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  62. # [01:30] <annevk> If people could reply to my IDNA email (you know who), that'd be great... I think for now I'll go with referencing IDNA 2003 and overriding the Unicode version as well as making it crystal clear IDNA 2008 did not obsolete IDNA 2003 for the purposes of the URL Standard...
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  72. # [02:02] <heycam> TabAtkins++ for calling your spec generator Bikeshed
  73. # [02:02] <TabAtkins> Heh, thank François for the suggestion.
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  75. # [02:02] <TabAtkins> Remy, that is.
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  115. # [03:42] <zewt> i sure hope "screen orientation" apis are only "lock the current orientation" and never "only allow landscape/portrait", which would be terrible
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  125. # [04:31] <zewt> the fact that i can hover over a link and see a url, right click the link and see the same url, then click "copy link location" and get a totally different url: very not okay
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  158. # [08:05] <Hixie> zewt: it's trivial for a web app to rotate itself, once the orientation is fixed
  159. # [08:05] <Hixie> zewt: so there's no practical difference to the user
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  173. # [08:57] <Ms2ger> Hixie, nsAttrAndChildArray is... interesting
  174. # [09:00] <Ms2ger> It's basically an array of void*s where some of the void*s are actually used to store attributes rather than pointers
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  219. # [13:05] <annevk> Hixie: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22496 lacks a reply
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  221. # [13:10] <annevk> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2006/webapi/WebIDL/Overview.xml.diff?r1=1.642;r2=1.643;f=h Does getElementsByTagName() always return a new object? I thought we stopped doing that...
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  224. # [13:26] <zcorpan> annevk: no, and it was pointed out and fixed in webidl, i think
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  226. # [13:27] <annevk> ah I see
  227. # [13:27] <annevk> teaches me reading diffs rather than drafts
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  248. # [14:37] <hsivonen> Oh great. Discussion about deprecating <blockquote> on public-html.
  249. # [14:38] <odinho> *shrug
  250. # [14:39] <Ms2ger> Oh great. public-html.
  251. # [14:41] * hsivonen hopes that Robin makes it go away
  252. # [14:45] <Ms2ger> I'd rather keep it for the unhelpful people
  253. # [14:46] <hsivonen> oh. I meant making the proposal go away
  254. # [14:46] <hsivonen> making <blockquote> go away won't fly
  255. # [14:46] * hsivonen got trolled into replying
  256. # [14:47] <hsivonen> I wonder how long it's been since my previous public-html post
  257. # [14:47] <Ms2ger> Sunday, 10 March 2013
  258. # [14:48] <hsivonen> shorter time than I thought
  259. # [14:48] * Ms2ger wonders if he ever posted there
  260. # [14:49] <Ms2ger> Doesn't appear that way
  261. # [14:49] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: congratulations
  262. # [14:49] <Ms2ger> Thanks :)
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  269. # [14:59] <jgraham> Oh that was public-html
  270. # [14:59] <jgraham> makes sense I guess
  271. # [14:59] <jgraham> I should really setup up mail filters again
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  275. # [15:07] <SteveF> hsivonen: how did you get trolled into replying?
  276. # [15:09] <SteveF> hsivonen: "hopes that Robin makes it go away" from the current discussion i don't see it happening, but do see possible changes in cite and blockquote definitions
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  278. # [15:15] <jgraham> SteveF: That's an obviously silly thread
  279. # [15:16] <SteveF> jgraham: why?
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  282. # [15:17] <jgraham> SteveF: Mostly for the reasons hsivonen already gave
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  284. # [15:20] <SteveF> jgraham: the idea of obsoleting blockquote is a non starter but other stuff arising from the discussion is not
  285. # [15:25] <jgraham> I'm pretty sure I have seen all the same discussions before. I'm entirely sure that no change you make to the spec here will noticably improve the experience for consumers of HTML, since it won't be used or will at best be used sporadically
  286. # [15:26] <SteveF> jgraham: maybe
  287. # [15:27] <SteveF> jgraham: authors may benefit
  288. # [15:29] <hsivonen> SteveF: I read the initial post to the thread and replied even though I knew I shouldn't
  289. # [15:30] <SteveF> hsivonen: i don't think the people on the thread are trolls but hey thats just me
  290. # [15:31] <hsivonen> SteveF: oh, I'm not suggesting it got intentionally trolled
  291. # [15:31] <SteveF> hsivonen: ok
  292. # [15:32] <hsivonen> is there a term for involuntary trolling that has an effect similar to intentional trolling?
  293. # [15:33] <hsivonen> as in posting something that's from outside the Overton Window without intending to troll
  294. # [15:34] <hsivonen> SteveF: I'm glad we agree that obsoleting the element is a non-starter
  295. # [15:35] <hsivonen> I'll try to use expressions like "succumb to 386" in order to avoid the offense of "getting trolled"
  296. # [15:35] <SteveF> hsivonen: sure
  297. # [15:36] <annevk> hsivonen: it happens when you encounter people who missed a decade of debate, as with the XML 1.1 guy
  298. # [15:36] <SteveF> hsivonen: poeple can propose anything they like, but there are lots of hoops to jump through before stuff may happen
  299. # [15:36] <Ms2ger> "detractor performant"
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  301. # [15:38] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: I believe "detractor performant" refers to suspected-intentional trolls without the word "troll"
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  314. # [16:12] * GPHemsley just closed a 13-year-old Mozilla bug reported by Hixie as WFM.
  315. # [16:13] <Lachy> GPHemsley, which bug?
  316. # [16:13] <GPHemsley> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=34822
  317. # [16:14] <GPHemsley> And then there's this bug, which annevk said he would get to back in 2004: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=74263
  318. # [16:14] * diffalot-away is now known as diffalot
  319. # [16:16] <GPHemsley> resolved that WFM, too
  320. # [16:16] <zewt> Hixie: having a way for apps to say "landscape only" is going to mean lots of pages randomly doing that (in the same way that pages once resized windows to 640x480), which will be a horrible UX
  321. # [16:18] <zewt> i suspect people might be thinking of that as if it's analogous to mobile apps locking one orientation, but it's very different (having your orientation change out from underneath you normally only happens when you explicitly change apps; this would happen merely from browsing, and even hitting back a few times could spin back and forth between different orientations for each page you go through)
  322. # [16:22] <zewt> re "trivial to rotate itself: rotating the page itself isn't the same as forcing an orientation, since the browser and OS UIs won't be affected, which makes it much less intrusive (it's also not at all what you want, if you really *do* want that orientation)
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  326. # [16:30] <zewt> gar @ pages that intercept f5 to try to keep you from refreshing
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  349. # [17:16] <annevk> GPHemsley: only if people wanted it ;)
  350. # [17:17] <GPHemsley> ;)
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  352. # [17:19] <jgraham> GPHemsley: trying to eliminate all the 5 digit bugs?
  353. # [17:19] <GPHemsley> Not exactly, though that might be worthwhile.
  354. # [17:20] * Parts: jreading (~Adium@ip98-169-193-48.dc.dc.cox.net)
  355. # [17:20] <GPHemsley> I was just going through the list of open bugs that hadn't been touched in 5 years.
  356. # [17:20] <GPHemsley> And a few jumped out at me as being clearly obsolete.
  357. # [17:20] <GPHemsley> (And/or something that I had to the knowledge to assess.)
  358. # [17:23] <GPHemsley> jgraham: Incidentally, there are actually still a handful of open 4-digit bugs
  359. # [17:23] <GPHemsley> opened in 1999
  360. # [17:24] <GPHemsley> but I don't think I'm qualified to assess any of them
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  363. # [17:26] <GPHemsley> Oh, here's a good one: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=7954
  364. # [17:26] <GPHemsley> "outstanding issues for full HTML 4.01 support"
  365. # [17:26] <GPHemsley> (though that one still gets updated every so often)
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  369. # [17:29] <GPHemsley> oh, and 3 3-digit bugs
  370. # [17:29] <GPHemsley> two are on Bugzilla
  371. # [17:29] <GPHemsley> but the third is "implement inheritance of alignment attributes from columns (align, valign, char, charoff, (lang, dir)?) "
  372. # [17:30] <Ms2ger> Oh, 915
  373. # [17:30] <GPHemsley> yeah, the infamous 915
  374. # [17:30] <Ms2ger> It doesn't close easy
  375. # [17:32] <GPHemsley> no it doesn't
  376. # [17:32] <GPHemsley> the first attempt was 2 days after it was file, back in 1998
  377. # [17:32] <GPHemsley> +d
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  379. # [17:34] <Ms2ger> Should have a party next month
  380. # [17:34] <Ms2ger> Not many bugs make it to their 15th birthday
  381. # [17:35] <GPHemsley> heh
  382. # [17:35] <GPHemsley> 540 and 554 will get there first
  383. # [17:36] <GPHemsley> though it's possible 540 won't make it
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  385. # [17:36] <GPHemsley> "I will create a new patch for this very soon." – dkl back in June
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  392. # [17:44] <gsnedders> Well, Opera's CORE-1 got fixed a couple of years back.
  393. # [17:44] <Ms2ger> Our first bug got wontfixed
  394. # [17:45] <jgraham> Did DSK-1 ever get fixed?
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  396. # [17:45] <jgraham> I don't know what it was
  397. # [17:45] <gsnedders> DSK-1 was "test"
  398. # [17:45] <jgraham> Oh
  399. # [17:46] <gsnedders> Not sure what status it is in.
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  401. # [17:46] <gsnedders> No, sorry, it was "Test Test Test", a feature request, rejected.
  402. # [17:47] <gsnedders> DSK-2 is "test", resolved invalid.
  403. # [17:48] <gsnedders> AndDSK-3 is "TEST".
  404. # [17:48] <gsnedders> (also invalid)
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  413. # [18:00] <GPHemsley> hmm... http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-text/ is a 401
  414. # [18:02] <annevk> wfm
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  416. # [18:04] <SimonSapin> GPHemsley: it’s a pre-processor fail. The actual file contains the error message: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/file/f7456b5a5ed0/css-text/Overview.html
  417. # [18:04] <GPHemsley> interesting
  418. # [18:06] <SimonSapin> GPHemsley: fixed
  419. # [18:06] <GPHemsley> thanks
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  423. # [18:16] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, ah, those DSK people...
  424. # [18:18] <annevk> TIL: browsers don't care about empty domain labels
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  431. # [18:33] <Ms2ger> Lachy: I must recommend a FxOS phone ;)
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  437. # [18:42] * jgraham thinks the temptation to call a class TestRunnerRunner might indicate something went wrong somewhere
  438. # [18:43] <Ms2ger> TestRunnerRunnerFactory?
  439. # [18:44] <gsnedders> jgraham: You approved a review of html5lib stuff with moduleFactoryFactory!
  440. # [18:44] <jgraham> Yeah well
  441. # [18:44] * Quits: lpaul7 (~paul@213.87.122.249) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  442. # [18:46] <jgraham> In this case TestRunners want to live in their own process and if they are forcibly killed it must be by the owner process. So I have a TestRunnerRunner that starts the TestRunners and kills them if they become unresponsive. But it doens't feel good, so I guess something should change
  443. # [18:49] <gsnedders> That seems sane.
  444. # [18:49] <Ms2ger> TestRunnerManager
  445. # [18:50] <jgraham> "manager" makes it sound better already
  446. # [18:51] <Ms2ger> TestManagerRunner
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  449. # [18:51] <jgraham> Worse again :p
  450. # [18:51] * Ms2ger switches some glasses around
  451. # [18:51] <Ms2ger> This?
  452. # [18:51] * Ms2ger switches more
  453. # [18:51] <Ms2ger> Or this?
  454. # [18:54] * Quits: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be) (Remote host closed the connection)
  455. # [18:55] * Ms2ger finds http://hg.hoppipolla.co.uk/hgwebdir.cgi/domharness/
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  460. # [19:07] <tobie> jgraham: not sure what you're working on, but the runner and server prob need to be two different projects.
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  463. # [19:10] <Ms2ger> tobie, he's got a job now ;)
  464. # [19:11] * Joins: daniel|w (~danielfil@186.231.66.34)
  465. # [19:12] <jgraham> tobie: I am working on all the things that Mozilla need to run the tests
  466. # [19:12] * Quits: enr (~enr@static-88.131.87.100.addr.tdcsong.se) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  467. # [19:12] <jgraham> Not neccessarily sequentially
  468. # [19:14] <tobie> :)
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  472. # [19:30] <Hixie> zewt: i agree
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  474. # [19:31] <Hixie> hsivonen: why are you even reading that list, sheesh
  475. # [19:39] <annevk> I checked in IDNA support for the host parser. I didn't do anything I wanted to do today though: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22986
  476. # [19:40] <annevk> Hmm, I meant everything there... but just as well
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  479. # [19:50] <annevk> Hixie: replied
  480. # [19:50] <Hixie> url?
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  484. # [19:52] <annevk> Hixie: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22496
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  499. # [20:26] <GPHemsley> There is a legitimate bug entitled "Flour missing from pancake recipe"
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  505. # [20:30] * GPHemsley 's head explodes
  506. # [20:31] <GPHemsley> recursive definitions don't work well in plain English
  507. # [20:32] <GPHemsley> an inclusive ancestor can either be host-including or non-hosting including?
  508. # [20:32] <GPHemsley> +-
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  510. # [20:33] <GPHemsley> an inclusive ancestor can either be host-including or non-hosting-including?
  511. # [20:33] <GPHemsley> argh
  512. # [20:33] <GPHemsley> an inclusive ancestor can either be host-including or non-host-including?
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  514. # [20:34] <GPHemsley> meh, that's the wrong question to ask anyway
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  517. # [20:38] <GPHemsley> yeah, I think adding "of an object's root's host" after "an inclusive ancestor" might clarify things a little bit
  518. # [20:38] * GPHemsley just realized annevk isn't even here
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  567. # [22:32] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Yo, html5lib is throwing "Coercing non-XML name" warnings, but not telling me anything about the error. No line number, no name, nothing.
  568. # [22:33] <annevk> Hixie: I don't follow, recursive terminology around trees has been in standards since at least CSS 2.1
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  572. # [22:39] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: You want useful error messages?
  573. # [22:39] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Yes.
  574. # [22:39] <gsnedders> Bah!
  575. # [22:39] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: GitHub issue, plz.
  576. # [22:39] <TabAtkins> kk
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  581. # [22:43] <Hixie> annevk: responded
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  587. # [22:57] <annevk> ta, will look later
  588. # [22:57] <annevk> I mean, that comment looks useful, will look into using it later
  589. # [23:01] <Hixie> heh k
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  612. # Session Close: Sat Aug 17 00:00:00 2013

The end :)