/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-09-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Sep 17 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:02] <zewt> nothing quite as futuristic as sites rejecting a form because i didn't put dashes in my phone number
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  16. # [00:36] <heycam> zcorpan, yeah the only reason dashes are in the names of some elements is that they were reflecting CSS at-rules (like font-face) in elements
  17. # [00:36] <heycam> zcorpan, and that was a bad idea :)
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  21. # [00:39] <zcorpan> missing-glyph is an at-rule? :-)
  22. # [00:39] <heycam> zcorpan, you got me there!
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  62. # [02:10] <TabAtkins> Worse for me (rachel doesn't get home until late on fridays)
  63. # [02:10] <MikeSmith> what exactly is https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23254 asking for?
  64. # [02:10] <TabAtkins> whoops, wrong window
  65. # [02:11] <MikeSmith> is it asking that any arbitrary element that has a hype in it should be considered valid/conformant?
  66. # [02:11] <MikeSmith> *has a hypen in it
  67. # [02:11] <MikeSmith> only about document conformance?
  68. # [02:14] <MikeSmith> Hixie_: any clue about https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/#!topic/chromium-dev/qcDiw-QP4RE ?
  69. # [02:15] <MikeSmith> I already pointed out to him (off list) that he should be reading the whatwg spec, not the TR link he cited
  70. # [02:15] <MikeSmith> but in this case the TR and whatwg source don't have any difference
  71. # [02:17] <Hixie_> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23254 looks to be rather premature, since until we merge in web components, it's only applicable to web components...
  72. # [02:17] <Hixie_> (presumably only elements that are bound would be conforming)
  73. # [02:17] <MikeSmith> Hixie_: ok
  74. # [02:18] <Hixie_> (dglazkov and i chat about this stuff occasionally to keep in sync re what should be merged into html)
  75. # [02:18] <MikeSmith> yeah, I figured
  76. # [02:18] <Hixie_> as far as that chromium-dev post is concerned -- would have to see the output to comment
  77. # [02:19] <MikeSmith> he seems to be saying the blink requires the length to be specified in the headers, but he can't find any spec that requires that
  78. # [02:19] <Hixie_> HTTP headers?
  79. # [02:21] <MikeSmith> I assume so
  80. # [02:21] <MikeSmith> dunno what else he'd mean
  81. # [02:21] <MikeSmith> hex-encoded
  82. # [02:23] <MikeSmith> seems like he's saying he can't even figure out what chromium expects
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  84. # [02:23] <MikeSmith> anyway, I just figured there might be something he was missing as far his reading of the specs
  85. # [02:23] <MikeSmith> but it seems not
  86. # [02:24] <Hixie_> "to each message" is what confuses me
  87. # [02:24] <MikeSmith> yeah that too
  88. # [02:24] <Hixie_> so i dunno
  89. # [02:24] <Hixie_> would have to see the output
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  92. # [02:25] <dev11> What is wrong with chrome
  93. # [02:25] <dev11> all have problems or just me
  94. # [02:25] <MikeSmith> but if he's running into problems implementing server support compatible with Chrome's SSE implementation, it makes me wonder how others manage to implement it without running into the same problem
  95. # [02:26] <dev11> someone that works in chrome project here
  96. # [02:26] <dev11> ?
  97. # [02:27] <Hixie_> dev11: what's up?
  98. # [02:27] <Hixie_> MikeSmith: yeah, i dunno
  99. # [02:28] <Hixie_> MikeSmith: i have to admit that i just do websockets now, for pretty much everything
  100. # [02:28] <dev11> something is very bad right now
  101. # [02:28] <dev11> I am not sure if its just me or all thats why I though to ask sorry
  102. # [02:28] <dev11> that I ask here Hixie..
  103. # [02:28] <Hixie_> MikeSmith: anything that's not just static file serving, i do over web sockets
  104. # [02:28] <Hixie_> MikeSmith: so i never actually used sse :-)
  105. # [02:28] <dev11> youtube videos don't open and pages don't open, I am doing 112412 thingsright now so I am not sure whats goin on
  106. # [02:29] <Hixie_> dev11: are you on a dev build?
  107. # [02:29] <dev11> no
  108. # [02:29] <dev11> normal
  109. # [02:29] <Hixie_> weird
  110. # [02:29] <dev11> wait ill try on other pc lol I forgot that I have 6 pcs :D
  111. # [02:29] <MikeSmith> Hixie_: yeah I kind of wonder why at this point somebody would put work into implementing SSE support in a server rather than just providing websocket support
  112. # [02:29] <Hixie_> dev11: if you can't get any help here, try #chromium
  113. # [02:29] <dev11> yeah
  114. # [02:29] <dev11> it chrome
  115. # [02:29] <dev11> laptop is same
  116. # [02:30] <dev11> hm let me recheck
  117. # [02:30] <dev11> damn its my pc, sorry for annoying
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  130. # [02:54] <inaimathi> Hi; I've been asking questions about SSE server implementations.
  131. # [02:54] <inaimathi> Someone wanted to see some output? :D
  132. # [02:54] <MikeSmith> hi inaimathi yeah Hixie_ might be able to provide some insights
  133. # [02:55] <MikeSmith> since he's the one who wrote the spec
  134. # [02:55] <MikeSmith> way back when..
  135. # [02:56] <inaimathi> Ok. Let me get my notes in order and I'll try to summarize.
  136. # [03:06] <inaimathi> So.
  137. # [03:06] <inaimathi> The server implementation I worked up is here (I don't have a repo up on Github yet): http://langnostic.blogspot.ca/2013/09/deal-journal-interlude-one-treatise-on.html
  138. # [03:06] <inaimathi> As written, the stream it generates for one message looks like this: http://pastebin.com/KPBS7egD
  139. # [03:06] <inaimathi> which doesn't conform to the spec as far as I understand, because it contains two lines that have no colons, but aren't ignored.
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  141. # [03:07] <inaimathi> If I change that stream output so that it instead looks like this: http://pastebin.com/A57URpnK
  142. # [03:07] <inaimathi> it stops working with Firefox/Iceweasel/Conkeror/etc and Chromium.
  143. # [03:07] <inaimathi> Firefox+friends eat the first message, correctly process the second, and choke on the third (tripping the `onerror` event). Chromium chokes on the first message, immediately tries to reconnect and continues that cycle for each message you send.
  144. # [03:08] <inaimathi> My question boils down to: why?
  145. # [03:09] <inaimathi> My best theory at this point is that those lines represent length headers which the named browsers use to allocate space for incoming messages (either the full stream, or on a message by-message basis), but I don't understand what the benefit is, and I can't find a specification for how exactly they're supposed to work.
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  150. # [03:16] <inaimathi> Any hints in the right direction would be appreciated.
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  153. # [03:21] <inaimathi> Huh
  154. # [03:21] <inaimathi> I guess I should have checked if Hixie
  155. # [03:21] <inaimathi> was online before dumping that.
  156. # [03:22] <inaimathi> Will he appear if I type his name three times?
  157. # [03:22] <inaimathi> Hixie_ Hixie_ Hixie_
  158. # [03:23] <Hixie_> here
  159. # [03:23] <Hixie_> sorry, was having dinner
  160. # [03:23] <Hixie_> so the hex length stuff you're outputting is HTTP's chunked encoding
  161. # [03:23] <Hixie_> has nothing to do with Event Source per e
  162. # [03:23] <Hixie_> per s
  163. # [03:24] <Hixie_> per SE
  164. # [03:24] <Hixie_> i am not familiar with it enough to tell you if it's right
  165. # [03:24] <Hixie_> but
  166. # [03:24] <Hixie_> if you just load the file regularly in a browser, not in EventSource, what does it look like?
  167. # [03:24] <Hixie_> inaimathi: ^
  168. # [03:26] <inaimathi> 1e
  169. # [03:26] <inaimathi> data: Got a message! G1064
  170. # [03:26] <Hixie_> you shouldn't be seeing the "1e" if you are doing the chuncked encoding correctly
  171. # [03:26] <inaimathi> That's as written, connecting directly to the event-stream handler and publishing one message
  172. # [03:26] <Hixie_> it should get processed at the HTTP layer
  173. # [03:26] <Hixie_> so my guess is that you're mangling the http chunked transfer encoding stuff
  174. # [03:27] <inaimathi> High probability.
  175. # [03:27] <inaimathi> Ok, I'm off to read up on HTTP chunked transfer encoding
  176. # [03:27] <inaimathi> Thanks for your help, Hixie_
  177. # [03:28] <Hixie_> good luck...
  178. # [03:28] <inaimathi> Heh. I get the feeling I'll need it.
  179. # [03:28] <inaimathi> Anywhere you think I should start?
  180. # [03:30] <Hixie_> what's your web server?
  181. # [03:31] <inaimathi> I'm writing one (which is more or less the problem).
  182. # [03:31] <Hixie_> oh, in that case, i recommend writing a websocket server instead.
  183. # [03:31] <Hixie_> it's i zillion times easier, and gets you more.
  184. # [03:31] <inaimathi> Huh.
  185. # [03:31] <Hixie_> (and then serve the static resources from that off-the-shelf http server like apache or something)
  186. # [03:32] <Hixie_> s/that/an/
  187. # [03:32] <inaimathi> I'll give it a shot. My impression was that websocket support wasn't as consistent across browsers as SSEs.
  188. # [03:33] <Hixie_> what browsers do you care about?
  189. # [03:33] <Hixie_> caniuse.com suggest websocket is actually better supported than SSE
  190. # [03:34] <Hixie_> dunno how reliable that is
  191. # [03:34] <inaimathi> FF, Chrome and their Debian counterparts (although my pet browser is Conkeror, so I'd like to support it if I can at all manage). I take your point I guess.
  192. # [03:34] <Hixie_> ff and chrome definitely support websockets
  193. # [03:34] <Hixie_> no idea about conkeror
  194. # [03:35] <Hixie_> if you were using apache then i'd say use sse, because it's trivial to output sse messages from a CGI script
  195. # [03:35] <Hixie_> but if you're about to write your own HTTP server, then that changes the calculus a lot
  196. # [03:36] <Hixie_> web sockets is a couple hundred lines of code on the server in most languages at most
  197. # [03:36] <Hixie_> http takes thousands to do a half-decent implementation
  198. # [03:40] <inaimathi> Ok, I'll look into it.
  199. # [03:40] <inaimathi> You're right, from what I'm reading here, it's not high effort at all.
  200. # [03:40] <inaimathi> Thanks again
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  209. # [04:09] <zewt> help, SSE means http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streaming_SIMD_Extensions to me and my parser keeps having to backtrack
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  217. # [04:32] <TabAtkins> On the other hand, every time someone mentions SIMD stuff, I get confused and think they're talking about HTML.
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  368. # [09:48] <matjas> http://isup.me/whatwg.org http://isup.me/software.hixie.ch
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  381. # [11:06] <jgraham> zewt: I have the same issue whenever someone mentions NFC and doesn't mean "Normal Form C"
  382. # [11:07] <hsivonen> jgraham: me, too
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  386. #
  387. # Session Start: Tue Sep 17 19:55:36 2013
  388. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  389. # [19:55] * Now talking in #whatwg
  390. # [19:55] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  391. # [19:55] * Set by smaug____!~chatzilla@GGZYYCCCXVIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi on Wed Mar 21 17:14:24
  392. # [19:55] <Jasper> Hixie_, the only thing I can imagine is that you'll double-paint the arc and get some fringes around the edges
  393. # [19:56] * Joins: mven (~mven@169.241.49.239)
  394. # [19:57] <Hixie_> oh, i meant to put beginPath() after hte first fill(), my bad
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  396. # [19:58] <Jasper> Hixie_, so I'm not the only one who makes that mistake.
  397. # [19:58] <Jasper> good to know
  398. # [19:58] <Hixie_> i make that mistake all the freaking time
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  400. # [19:59] <Jasper> it's the biggest mistake in the canvas API. doing an operation should really clear the working path
  401. # [19:59] <Jasper> and it would be nice if save()/restore() saved and cleared the path as well
  402. # [19:59] <Jasper> but oh well
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  405. # [20:01] <Hixie_> well, you sometimes want to both stroke and fill a path
  406. # [20:01] <Hixie_> but yeah, that's one thing hte Path API is supposed to fix
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  408. # [20:01] <Jasper> Hixie_, yeah, cairo has fill_preserve(); stroke_preserve(); for this use case
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  423. # [20:32] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: (further to my e-mail just now) but really i just wish we had real type checking.
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  438. # [21:20] <matjas> annevk: thanks for filing that ES identifier bug and CCing me
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  440. # [21:21] <annevk> matjas: figured you'd be interested
  441. # [21:21] <annevk> matjas: everyone basically agreed that since IE throws and ES having magic lists was not desirable, relying on Unicode would be better for this
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  513. # Session Close: Wed Sep 18 00:00:00 2013

The end :)