/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-09-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Sep 21 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  16. # [00:27] <zcorpan> marcosc: you can use <img is="x-picture"> or some such i think
  17. # [00:27] <marcosc> zcorpan: thanks for the tip
  18. # [00:27] <marcosc> still a Web Components noob
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  20. # [00:35] <zcorpan> marcosc: so by 'preloader' i thought you meant the speculative scanner. but i guess you don't want the browser to fetch anything, you want to run some JS "asap" when the element is parsed, right?
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  27. # [00:45] * zcorpan wonders if the web legacy has already poisoned <picture> such that a native impl would break the web
  28. # [00:45] <zcorpan> e.g. http://www.vogue.es/
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  30. # [00:47] <zcorpan> heh, http://24ways.org/ escaping angle brackets is hard, let's go shopping
  31. # [00:48] <marcosc> :)
  32. # [00:48] <marcosc> heh
  33. # [00:48] <marcosc> our <picture>-perfect response
  34. # [00:49] <marcosc> zcorpan: you looking at the latest webdevdata?
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  36. # [00:49] <marcosc> I don't think it's too late... we've been telling people not to use it
  37. # [00:49] <marcosc> Anyway, wish I could stay and chat, but I gotta pack :(
  38. # [00:50] <zcorpan> webdevdata yeah
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  40. # [00:50] <marcosc> zcorpan: if you can, can you paste in some of the searches you are doing as examples into the GH repo for that
  41. # [00:50] <marcosc> there is an open bug
  42. # [00:50] <marcosc> we are collecting examples to create better docs
  43. # [00:51] <marcosc> for how to grep the data
  44. # [00:51] <marcosc> etc
  45. # [00:51] <marcosc> grepping is actauly hard... even if you go shoppin
  46. # [00:53] <zcorpan> hf365.com uses <picture><img ...></picture>. cato.org showed up but doesn't seem to use <picture> anymore
  47. # [00:53] <zcorpan> i just did grep -rIE "<picture(\s|>)" .
  48. # [00:55] <zcorpan> so now i just found one site that would break, that seems OK
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  51. # [01:00] <zcorpan> well, depending on how it gets defined... not showing fallback if no <source> matches would break hf365.com
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  59. # [01:43] <dreamdust> Is there a way to find out the history of a given tag in the html spec? For example, *who* is the person who decided that <header> should be added to the spec.
  60. # [01:44] <dreamdust> I assume I have to grep archives of the mailing list?
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  64. # [01:47] <TabAtkins> Asking here often works. For example, <header> was added by Hixie, along with the other sectioning elements, due to research on common class names using the Google corpus.
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  67. # [01:51] <dreamdust> Is there any criteria for why a tag is added, or is it pretty much "we talk about it and decide to add tags." Seems like adding tags based on common class names is… arbitrary to put it nicely.
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  70. # [01:55] <TabAtkins> The research was for common landmark class names. If a large percentage of the internet uses <div class="header">, that suggests that a <header> element would be useful for cleaning up that code.
  71. # [01:56] <Philip`> TabAtkins: It was added because of that, but then it was renamed to <hgroup>, so that doesn't explan the current <header>, as far as I'm awae
  72. # [01:56] <Philip`> *aware
  73. # [01:56] <TabAtkins> Philip`: Hm? Iirc, <header> has always been <header>.
  74. # [01:56] <Philip`> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-April/019538.html - "I've renamed the old <header> to <hgroup>."
  75. # [01:57] <Philip`> coincident with http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/commit-watchers-whatwg.org/2009/002212.html - "Introduce a new <header> element."
  76. # [01:57] <TabAtkins> Huh, all right.
  77. # [01:59] <Philip`> dreamdust: What method would be less arbitrary than doing research into current practices and extending the language to more naturally express those practices?
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  79. # [02:01] <Philip`> dreamdust: ("we talk about it and decide to add tags" without any prior research would be much more arbitrary, but hopefully that didn't happen very often)
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  81. # [02:03] <dreamdust> Well, like what the purpose of tags serve in HTML? Is there any consensus on that? I'm not saying I disagree with the process just trying to understand the reasoning behind it. To me, the fact that a bunch of people add a "article" class to things doesn't mean a tag should be made for it.
  82. # [02:08] <TabAtkins> The purpose of tags is to communicate meaning between the page authors and machines reading the page, and to organize the page in a meaningful way so it's easy to edit and maintain.
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  84. # [02:08] <TabAtkins> And incidentally to provide convenient hooks to hang certain types of styles off of.
  85. # [02:08] <Philip`> dreamdust: If I remember correctly (I probably don't), the main thoughts were that a document's elements should semantically describe the document's structure in a way that is meaningful to humans who are writing HTML (and semantics is a good thing and is what HTML has always been about); and that the set of elements should be designed so tools could automatically generate outlines and tables of contents
  86. # [02:08] <dreamdust> Like the header tag for example… what's the point? It doesn't enable me to accomplish anything I could accomplish before. There's no rules on what goes inside it, as browsers render everything inside it. There can be multiple header tags… I mean I can't even read the spec and determine how to use it properly.
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  88. # [02:08] <TabAtkins> dreamdust: If the examples don't help you use it correctly, file bugs please.
  89. # [02:09] <TabAtkins> But yes, all the sectioning elements are like you describe. They're lightly-flavored <div>s.
  90. # [02:09] <dreamdust> lightly-flavored!? they seem completely pointless
  91. # [02:10] <Philip`> In the end I think it comes down to the personal taste of the people who were defining HTML5 at that time
  92. # [02:10] <dreamdust> yeah seriously
  93. # [02:11] <Philip`> since there are arguments for many possible directions, and that one was chosen
  94. # [02:11] <dreamdust> but not the case with all tags, there is no ambiguity about what a <a> tag is and means and does. Same with something like <li> or <p>. <section>, <header>, <nav> seem so loosely defined I just don't see what we gain from having them.
  95. # [02:11] <Philip`> and it wasn't a particularly problematic direction for anyone, so it was never worth changing again
  96. # [02:12] <Philip`> and then the more technical features of HTML5 became very popular, so it took off, and the bits that nobody really cares about (like semantic elements) got dragged along with the rest
  97. # [02:14] <Philip`> dreamdust: About your original question: I don't think any of the history is documented anywhere, except in the spec's commit log and the WHATWG mailing list and the HTML WG list and the IRC logs
  98. # [02:14] <Philip`> (i.e. there's a huge amount of documentation and the problem is filtering it)
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  103. # [02:20] <dreamdust> Yeah… I'm finding that out now. It's very problematic because there's no way to track the history of a change. Why the header tag is added is essentially lost to time and left for people to deconstruct from searching through hundreds of emails. I suggest moving the spec to github, using a branching model, and having the official spec live there in a master branch. I see it's been put on github but there's no point for anyone to use it because th
  104. # [02:21] <TabAtkins> The spec is version-controlled, though not by git. I'm not sure how switching to git would help this particular issue.
  105. # [02:25] <Philip`> I think the fundamental difficulty is that an enormous amount of thought and discussion goes into each change
  106. # [02:26] <Philip`> and it would take a large amount of effort to summarise it into an easy-to-read form, so nobody does that
  107. # [02:26] <dreamdust> github not so much git… because of the public link between discussion and spec changes. Requests for changes are formalized with pull requests, and discussion is more linked to the actual git changes.
  108. # [02:27] <TabAtkins> Spec discussion happens on email and/or bugzilla bugs. Moving the discussion forum won't make things any easier, and it would disrupt the existing workflow substantially.
  109. # [02:27] <dreamdust> fair enough
  110. # [02:28] <Philip`> Spec changes should usually be motivated by someone expressing a problem that they would like to be solved, and then people analyse various possible solutions, and might end up with a solution that involves a change to the HTML spec
  111. # [02:28] <dreamdust> right… so how would I go about finding what problem the header tag solved?
  112. # [02:28] <Philip`> Pull requests seem like the opposite model, since they start with someone proposing a change to the spec
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  115. # [02:39] <a-ja> iirc, <header> had some XHTML2 baggage
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  153. # [05:38] <Hixie_> TabAtkins, Philip`: in case dreamdust comes back (or anyone else asks), there's also http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Rationale
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  374. # [23:03] * Quits: mven (~mven@u-131-216-14-39.dhcp.unlv.edu) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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  376. # [23:07] * Quits: mven (~mven@u-131-216-14-39.dhcp.unlv.edu) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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  378. # [23:09] * Quits: mven (~mven@u-131-216-14-39.dhcp.unlv.edu) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  379. # [23:09] * Joins: mven (~mven@u-131-216-14-39.dhcp.unlv.edu)
  380. # [23:11] * Joins: espadrine (~ttyl@AMontsouris-158-1-27-32.w92-128.abo.wanadoo.fr)
  381. # [23:11] * Quits: mven (~mven@u-131-216-14-39.dhcp.unlv.edu) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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  383. # [23:12] * Quits: WesleyL (~WesleyL@irc.bierdopje.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  384. # [23:13] * Quits: mven (~mven@u-131-216-14-39.dhcp.unlv.edu) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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  386. # [23:14] * Quits: tobie_ (~tobielang@col74-1-88-183-112-72.fbx.proxad.net) (Quit: tobie_)
  387. # [23:15] * Quits: mven (~mven@u-131-216-14-39.dhcp.unlv.edu) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  388. # [23:16] * Joins: mven (~mven@u-131-216-14-39.dhcp.unlv.edu)
  389. # [23:17] * Joins: WesleyL (~WesleyL@irc.bierdopje.com)
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  394. # [23:24] * Joins: Nenor (~Nenor@ip4-95-82-183-100.cust.nbox.cz)
  395. # [23:26] * Quits: mven (~mven@u-131-216-14-39.dhcp.unlv.edu) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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  397. # [23:29] * Quits: mven (~mven@u-131-216-14-39.dhcp.unlv.edu) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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  400. # [23:33] * Quits: mven (~mven@u-131-216-14-39.dhcp.unlv.edu) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  401. # [23:33] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
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  403. # [23:34] * Quits: tobie_ (~tobielang@col74-1-88-183-112-72.fbx.proxad.net) (Quit: tobie_)
  404. # [23:36] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@70-36-140-29.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  405. # [23:44] * Quits: lmclister (~lmclister@c-98-210-38-110.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  406. # [23:46] * Quits: mven (~mven@u-131-216-14-39.dhcp.unlv.edu) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  407. # [23:46] * Joins: mven (~mven@u-131-216-14-39.dhcp.unlv.edu)
  408. # [23:49] * Quits: mven (~mven@u-131-216-14-39.dhcp.unlv.edu) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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  410. # [23:51] * Joins: tobie_ (~tobielang@col74-1-88-183-112-72.fbx.proxad.net)
  411. # [23:52] * Quits: mven (~mven@u-131-216-14-39.dhcp.unlv.edu) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  412. # [23:52] * Joins: mven (~mven@u-131-216-14-39.dhcp.unlv.edu)
  413. # [23:53] * Quits: mven (~mven@u-131-216-14-39.dhcp.unlv.edu) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  414. # [23:54] * Joins: mven (~mven@u-131-216-14-39.dhcp.unlv.edu)
  415. # [23:56] * Quits: tobie_ (~tobielang@col74-1-88-183-112-72.fbx.proxad.net) (Quit: tobie_)
  416. # [23:56] * Quits: mven (~mven@u-131-216-14-39.dhcp.unlv.edu) (Remote host closed the connection)
  417. # Session Close: Sun Sep 22 00:00:00 2013

The end :)