/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-09-23 / end

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  123. # [09:20] <Ms2ger> "I have an insane, complex use case, and you'd laugh at me if I told you what it was, but trust me when I say I need an immediate mode drawing API like <canvas> instead of a retained scene graph like SVG."
  124. # [09:20] <heycam> lucky for them such a thing exists
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  190. # [14:12] <hsivonen> annevk: if a document's encoding is the replacement encoding, what should document.characterSet return when "replacement" isn't one of the encoding's labels?
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  217. # [15:26] <jgraham> Ms2ger: 74s
  218. # [15:27] <Ms2ger> ?
  219. # [15:28] <jgraham> For the review
  220. # [15:30] <Ms2ger> Ah
  221. # [15:30] <Ms2ger> Next: under 60s :)
  222. # [15:30] <jgraham> Well now you have something to beat ;)
  223. # [15:30] <Ms2ger> Heh
  224. # [15:30] * Ms2ger reruns his importing script
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  232. # [15:59] <zcorpan_> if one doesn't want to get emails about comments https://github.com/hoppipolla-critic-bot makes, does it work to block that user?
  233. # [16:00] <jgraham> Perhaps?
  234. # [16:01] <jgraham> In the future it could potentially send more useful comments
  235. # [16:01] <jgraham> Like it could be an easy way to do merges directly from critic
  236. # [16:01] <zcorpan_> apparently art wants to pretend that critic doesn't exist
  237. # [16:02] <zcorpan_> or at least doesn't want to use it and doesn't want to get emails about it
  238. # [16:03] <jgraham> Well it's not clear if he is in principle opposed to all mail it sends or just that mail in particular
  239. # [16:04] <jgraham> I guess it's hard to tell at the moment since that's the only mail it sends
  240. # [16:04] <jgraham> Or, rather, that it causes GH to send
  241. # [16:05] <annevk> hsivonen: you return the name of the encoding, so "replacement"
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  249. # [16:41] <Ms2ger> "See the whole threat on public-fx [1]."
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  255. # [16:53] <zcorpan_> i wonder if public-fx is a list i should subscribe ot
  256. # [16:54] <zcorpan_> the only thread this month i care about is cross-posted to www-style, so i guess no
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  261. # [17:06] <Hixie_> zcorpan_: i'm subscribed to it, but every few days i just do "select all recipient fx delete expunge", so...
  262. # [17:09] <annevk> zcorpan_: you should I think (I'm not)
  263. # [17:09] <annevk> zcorpan_: object model for CSS and SVG should be somewhat coordinated and similar
  264. # [17:09] <zcorpan_> k
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  266. # [17:10] <annevk> At some point I thought the latter should be mostly obsoleted by the former... Not sure how true that is these days
  267. # [17:11] * zcorpan_ *poof*
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  269. # [17:21] <hsivonen> annevk: but if the label "replacement" appears in, say Content-Type, it's unknown and doesn't map to "replacement"?
  270. # [17:21] <annevk> hsivonen: correct
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  272. # [17:22] <hsivonen> annevk: :-( I wonder if your APIs are prepared to deal with this kind of thing
  273. # [17:22] <hsivonen> I'll try to implement this and will report back
  274. # [17:22] <annevk> hsivonen: it's kind of an odd exception, would you prefer an explicit label?
  275. # [17:22] <annevk> hsivonen: I had the feeling we didn't really want to expose replacement more than required
  276. # [17:22] <hsivonen> possibly. I'll have to try how annoying the current state of the spec is
  277. # [17:23] <annevk> per spec architecture it makes perfect sense, but I can imagine it might be annoying elsewhere yeah
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  289. # [17:44] <Ms2ger> A new css-ruby draft? Hear, hear
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  294. # [17:48] <annevk> is it finally simplified or does it still try to cover all the potential use cases?
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  322. # [18:24] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  324. # [18:26] <annevk> This conference is pretty interesting. I didn't know that people put <iframe> inside <iframe> to circumvent people relying on window.onload before initializing a bunch of stuff (in the context of third party widgets).
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  327. # [18:27] <annevk> Maybe there should be something like "I don't care about body's load event"
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  329. # [18:28] <annevk> Or people should just generally not use it for larger setups...
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  336. # [18:50] <annevk> Cookieless requests came up again too...
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  344. # [19:12] <annevk> hsivonen: why does document.write() not throw for async scripts?
  345. # [19:12] <annevk> hsivonen: it's apparently annoying
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  356. # [19:29] <jgraham> annevk left
  357. # [19:29] <jgraham> Seems like an odd thing to be annoyed about
  358. # [19:30] <jgraham> But didn't implementations lead here? Also I guess the script probably doesn't know that it's async at the moment
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  373. # [20:08] <zcorpan> document.write() from createElement()ed scripts didn't throw before async=""
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  377. # [20:15] <Domenic_> cookieless requests seem great, wouldn't they let you do cors-less cross-domain stuff?
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  380. # [20:18] <TabAtkins> No, cookies aren't the only source of ambient authority.
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  383. # [20:19] <Domenic_> :( what else is there
  384. # [20:19] <TabAtkins> Being on a given network, for example.
  385. # [20:20] <Domenic_> ugggh
  386. # [20:20] <TabAtkins> Yeah, the web's design sucks. :/
  387. # [20:20] <Domenic_> it's just so silly to have to set up a proxy endpoint on one's server to do any cross-domain requests
  388. # [20:20] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  389. # [20:23] <TabAtkins> Agreed, but security is hard, and the web screwed it up super-bad early enough that we can only patch it now, not actually fix it.
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  392. # [20:30] <annevk> Domenic_: opting out of HTTP authentication and something TLS user certificates would pave the way to that
  393. # [20:31] <annevk> Domenic_: I think we should have the ability to do those kinds of things same-origin, but requires more work figuring out the right hooks and getting implementations aligned with the new architecture
  394. # [20:32] <Domenic_> annevk: +1, building fetch from the ground-up by layering cookies etc. on top of a raw HTTP request seems sensible. But in terms of actual use cases my most prominent is cross-origin.
  395. # [20:33] <annevk> You mean tainted cross-origin?
  396. # [20:33] <Domenic_> no i mean just letting me see the damn data :P
  397. # [20:33] <Domenic_> in the same way i would see it if i set up a server-side proxy and went through that
  398. # [20:33] <annevk> You won't get cross-origin requests without CORS.
  399. # [20:34] <annevk> Except for tainted, but then you can't see the data (apart from height/width in case of images).
  400. # [20:34] <Domenic_> yeah, I guess that's what TabAtkins was explaining to me. Sad times.
  401. # [20:34] <TabAtkins> Proxying through your server wipes out all the ambient auth, which is why it's kosher. It's ugly, but it's not actually a hack - it has the desired security characterics.
  402. # [20:35] <annevk> Well, we should never have given the illusion from the start that intranets are protected. If security was thought through, it could've been the same...
  403. # [20:35] <annevk> It's IP-based intranet security that's biting us here...
  404. # [20:35] <TabAtkins> Yup.
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  464. # [22:36] <hallvors> 'evening, annevk
  465. # [22:36] <hallvors> yt?
  466. # [22:36] <annevk> hallvors: good afternoon
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  468. # [22:37] <hallvors> still somewhat confused about those serialize doc/encoding issues
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  470. # [22:37] <hallvors> but seeing that the spec is sort of undecided too, it's not entirely my fault :)
  471. # [22:39] <darobin> heh
  472. # [22:40] <hallvors> annevk: any "current" thoughts on this? (If the rest of you would like context it's https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/343#issuecomment-24906702 onwards)
  473. # [22:41] <annevk> hallvors: Chrome doesn't support sending documents at all?
  474. # [22:41] <annevk> hallvors: do you get [object Document] or some such at least?
  475. # [22:41] <hallvors> nope
  476. # [22:41] <hallvors> it sends "Content-length: 0" , no content-type, no content
  477. # [22:41] <annevk> hallvors: if we can get away with serializing and then encoding to utf-8 bytes that'd be preferred
  478. # [22:41] <darobin> hallvors: is that the same for HTML and XML documents?
  479. # [22:41] <annevk> hallvors: seems like we can if Chrome doesn't even support stuff
  480. # [22:42] <hallvors> OK - that's what my rewritten test currently asserts ;-)
  481. # [22:42] * darobin not entirely surprised, people get documents but rarely send them, and then likely as strings
  482. # [22:42] <hallvors> We could of course also make the test accept either behaviour as legal (with some real checks that the encoding label matches the on-the-wire bytes)
  483. # [22:43] * Ms2ger does not approve of that
  484. # [22:43] * annevk utters a Darth Vader noooo in silence
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  486. # [22:44] <hallvors> (BTW Ms2ger - since you're around - consider the issues you raised about the exceptions tests fixed ;-))
  487. # [22:44] * Ms2ger tries to remember
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  489. # [22:44] <Ms2ger> The one about the ByteString
  490. # [22:44] <hallvors> (And I'm glad you don't approve of that although it means more work for Gecko devs if you vote it down :-))
  491. # [22:45] <Ms2ger> And what was the other?
  492. # [22:45] <hallvors> Some TypeError -
  493. # [22:45] <hallvors> tests are apparently slightly out of sync with spec :-/
  494. # [22:45] <Ms2ger> Oh, the Blob
  495. # [22:45] <hallvors> oh yes, that one too
  496. # [22:45] <Ms2ger> No problem, thanks for filing the bugs
  497. # [22:45] <hallvors> will fix :)
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  499. # [22:46] <hallvors> (sort of hoping all the errors are Anne's fault :-p)
  500. # [22:46] <hallvors> nah, sorry Anne ;-)
  501. # [22:46] * Ms2ger has been dealing with twelve days of backlog :)
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  504. # [22:48] <Ms2ger> hallvors, and just as a general comment, I find small, focused PRs easier to deal with than "fix all the bugs" ones
  505. # [22:48] <Ms2ger> (Not saying that I would be reviewing the smaller ones ;))
  506. # [22:49] <hallvors> OK, I might consider that..
  507. # [22:51] <hallvors> It's a bit hard to find nice ways to slice those assorted bugs into PRs..
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  514. # [23:05] <annevk> hallvors: hah, I'm sure they are
  515. # [23:05] <annevk> hallvors: I wrote those tests long ago, on the couch in richt's old apartment in Oslo
  516. # [23:05] * abarth|gardener is now known as abarth
  517. # [23:05] <annevk> hallvors: no doubt things have changed
  518. # [23:06] <darobin> that plus remanent substances embedded in the couch
  519. # [23:06] * hallvors will forever blame Rich's couch
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  525. # [23:12] <hallvors> annevk; Ms2ger: http://xhr.spec.whatwg.org/#interface-formdata doesn't say that formdata.append() should throw any exceptions?
  526. # [23:12] <annevk> hallvors: IDL-level exceptions?
  527. # [23:12] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  528. # [23:12] <Ms2ger> You can't convert a string to a Blob
  529. # [23:12] <hallvors> OK
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  531. # [23:13] <Hixie_> sweet kittens, the web makes no sense
  532. # [23:13] <jgraham> Woah, you only just realised?
  533. # [23:13] * Quits: coyotebush (~coyotebus@coyotebush.xen.prgmr.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  534. # [23:14] <hallvors> It merely reflects humanity. Humans don't make much sense either.
  535. # [23:14] * jgraham is worried that Hixie_ has been asleep at the wheel
  536. # [23:14] <jgraham> :)
  537. # [23:14] <jgraham> hallvors: Now you sound like karl
  538. # [23:14] <Hixie_> i'm trying to figure out something about history.back()
  539. # [23:15] <Ms2ger> jgraham, if it'd been in the form of a haiku...
  540. # [23:15] <Hixie_> this API is on window.history
  541. # [23:15] <Hixie_> so you'd think it would affect window
  542. # [23:15] <Hixie_> but no!
  543. # [23:15] <hallvors> My new goal in life is to out-Karl Karl some day :)
  544. # [23:15] <Hixie_> it can affect some random other window, if it feels like it
  545. # [23:15] <hallvors> sub-frames that were navigated?
  546. # [23:15] <Hixie_> or parent frames
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  548. # [23:16] <Hixie_> or sibling frames
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  550. # [23:16] <jgraham> Well yeah, it changes the position in the global session history
  551. # [23:16] <Hixie_> or cousin frames
  552. # [23:16] <Hixie_> that makes precisely no sense.
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  555. # [23:16] <hallvors> or third cousin frames. or grandparent frames.
  556. # [23:16] <jgraham> The global session history makes no sense?
  557. # [23:17] <darobin> the many joys of designing functionality in world where nested framesets are all the rage
  558. # [23:17] <Hixie_> i go back to: the web makes no sense.
  559. # [23:17] <annevk> Hixie_: many things you can access through the global are not limited to it
  560. # [23:18] <jgraham> Well the global session history is no fun to implement at least
  561. # [23:18] <hallvors> Hixie_.back()
  562. # [23:18] <jgraham> Oh, you did document.open/document.write during load. Pretend the load didn't happen"
  563. # [23:19] <jgraham> (iirc)
  564. # [23:22] <Hixie_> hmmmm
  565. # [23:23] <Hixie_> history.back() provides an interesting difficulty in situations where several browsing contexts with the same top-level browsing context have different event loops
  566. # [23:24] <annevk> good point
  567. # [23:24] <annevk> also UX vs API
  568. # [23:24] <annevk> as in UX innovation is made harder because we expose an API to control the functionality
  569. # [23:25] <annevk> although I suppose the back button doesn't have to be implemented in terms of the API (would make the API less useful)
  570. # [23:25] <Hixie_> what do you think are the odds that one of the htmlwg editors would fix this bug if i filed it on the htmlwg
  571. # [23:25] <Ms2ger> Ahahahahaha
  572. # [23:25] <Hixie_> it _should_ be a 5.0 blocker, since it's implemented functionality
  573. # [23:25] <Ms2ger> Ahem
  574. # [23:26] <Hixie_> right darobin?
  575. # [23:26] <darobin> :)
  576. # [23:26] <darobin> I dunno, do you just want it fixed or do you want it fixed right?
  577. # [23:26] <Hixie_> fixed right
  578. # [23:26] <darobin> that said, I don't know of any rule that would make it a 5.0 blocker
  579. # [23:27] <darobin> but then again there seems to have been process rules invented just for you
  580. # [23:27] <Hixie_> well you couldn't exit CR unless it was interoperably implemented, unless the w3c's ignoring its process again
  581. # [23:27] * Quits: bradleymeck (~bradley.m@216-166-20-1.fwd.datafoundry.com) (Quit: bradleymeck)
  582. # [23:27] <Hixie_> or using one of its many "oh we don't really mean it" clauses
  583. # [23:27] <darobin> which is why I doubt it would make its way into there
  584. # [23:27] <Ms2ger> No, no
  585. # [23:27] <Ms2ger> Browsers work
  586. # [23:28] <Ms2ger> Hence, the spec is correct and interoperably implemented
  587. # [23:28] <Ms2ger> Thus we can go to rec
  588. # [23:28] <darobin> right! so it's fine :) we have, what's it called? "demonstrated interoperability"
  589. # [23:28] <Hixie_> oh right, i forgot, we proved the spec was right
  590. # [23:28] * darobin has his process work done by Ms2ger, usually works out well
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  592. # [23:28] <Hixie_> sigh
  593. # [23:29] <annevk> W3C shipping "good enough" makes sense given the patent policy
  594. # [23:29] <darobin> well yeah
  595. # [23:29] <Hixie_> yeah, we wouldn't want to have the patent protection cover what's actually implemented
  596. # [23:29] <annevk> It's kinda useless for all other things though and for "good enough" there's way too much politics
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  598. # [23:30] <darobin> it's good to have patent protection cover what's reasonably well defined
  599. # [23:31] <annevk> Hixie_: it'd be better sure, but with limited time something has got to give
  600. # [23:31] <Hixie_> well if anyone has a patent on how history.back() works, the spec won't cover it
  601. # [23:31] <annevk> Hixie_: and with infinite time you don't get protection
  602. # [23:31] <Hixie_> annevk: if there was limited time, we could have gone to REC five years ago
  603. # [23:31] <annevk> Hixie_: right, but you'd get the other features covered
  604. # [23:31] * Hixie_ long ago proposed going to REC every year
  605. # [23:31] <annevk> Hixie_: agreed
  606. # [23:31] <Hixie_> so clearly that's not it either
  607. # [23:31] <Hixie_> anyway
  608. # [23:31] <darobin> Hixie_: if someone has a patent that accurately describes how history.back() works, they deserve the money
  609. # [23:32] <Hixie_> anyone got an idea on this history.back() thing?
  610. # [23:32] <annevk> Hixie_: smaug____ does
  611. # [23:32] <annevk> and jgraham I suppose
  612. # [23:32] <Hixie_> given that presto and gecko both just have one event loop...
  613. # [23:32] * darobin wants to go to Rec every year, not sure why people hesitate about it
  614. # [23:32] <smaug____> yes, didn't jgraham promise to write a spec about session history :)
  615. # [23:33] <Ms2ger> Hixie_, it's quite simple, people still want to make it seem like the process is followed
  616. # [23:33] <Ms2ger> Hixie_, that may be silly, but that's how it works
  617. # [23:33] <Hixie_> w3c sucks, news at 11. about this event loop problem...
  618. # [23:34] <Hixie_> do we need some sort of cross-event-loop synchronisation primitive?
  619. # [23:34] <Hixie_> that would suck the big one
  620. # [23:34] <Ms2ger> Or define a single event loop? :)
  621. # [23:35] <Hixie_> that wouldn't be compatible with per-origin process isolation
  622. # [23:37] <annevk> Hixie_: I recommend asking abarth
  623. # [23:39] <annevk> Hixie_: per http://www.chromium.org/developers/design-documents/oop-iframes they will track history globally
  624. # [23:39] <annevk> Hixie_: see "Navigation"
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  626. # [23:43] <Hixie_> "We will also change the representation of a tab's session history to more closely match the HTML5 spec"
  627. # [23:43] <Hixie_> :-o
  628. # [23:43] <Hixie_> ok so basically they're planning on having a master event loop
  629. # [23:43] <Hixie_> just for navigation
  630. # [23:43] <Hixie_> that's interesting
  631. # [23:43] <Hixie_> makes sense
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  634. # [23:44] <Hixie_> bbiab
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  639. # Session Close: Tue Sep 24 00:00:00 2013

The end :)