/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-10-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Oct 04 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [00:14] <dev11> why when embeding video from youtube I see small black border below the video inside the iframe?
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  11. # [00:16] <rektide> are there any structured representations of a CSS color?
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  13. # [00:17] <rektide> i need to convert an rgb(r,g,b) into an rgb(r,g,b,a) property. i can do it manually sure but if there's something in the DOM that actually has a structure for what colors are I'd prefer to use that
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  15. # [00:20] <rektide> i guess the latter is rgba(r,g,b,a)
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  19. # [00:30] <rniwa> Hixie_: yt?
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  22. # [00:38] <Hixie_> yo
  23. # [00:38] <Hixie_> (i pumpkinise in 20 minutes)
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  41. # [01:38] <TabAtkins> rektide: No, CSS always returns colors as a string that you have to parse. Browsers do this in different manners, unfortunately.
  42. # [01:38] <TabAtkins> rektide: We've been planning for a while to provide a more structured version of this shit.
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  60. # [02:33] <rektide> amusingly Chrome appears to report rgb(r, g, b) programmatically but the debugger gives a bunch of #rrggbb results
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  63. # [02:35] <rektide> i'm not at all confident on the heuristics of what's up but different stuff, same browser: check
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  75. # [03:16] <wowaname> ohai
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  99. # [04:35] <MikeSmith> what are "forgeable" and "unforgeable" in the context of JavaScript?
  100. # [04:35] <MikeSmith> or is that some WebIDL thing?
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  105. # [05:17] <Domenic_> MikeSmith: from what i understsand it has something to do with configurable, but also something else?
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  109. # [05:26] <MikeSmith> Domenic_: that sounds likely
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  111. # [05:27] <MikeSmith> because somebody who was asking me about forgeable and unforgeable also mentioned configurable
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  129. # [07:46] <paul_irish> Domenic_: your LXJS talk is fantastic. :D
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  133. # [08:00] <MikeSmith> paul_irish: is it online?
  134. # [08:00] <MikeSmith> or I guess you probably mean you're there at the event
  135. # [08:01] <paul_irish> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hneN6aW-d9w "how to win friends and influence standards bodies"
  136. # [08:01] <paul_irish> the event was last week but the videos are already out. so good.
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  138. # [08:03] <MikeSmith> great
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  162. # [09:54] <annevk> zcorpan: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=850684
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  165. # [09:55] <zcorpan> rektide: if cssom's api makes you jump through hoops, send an email or file a bug describing what you're trying to do (i.e. your use case, don't describe a proposed solution, at least not at first)
  166. # [09:56] <zcorpan> annevk: thanks
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  169. # [10:01] <rektide> zcorpan: alas it all makes sense now
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  171. # [10:10] <zcorpan> rektide: ok, good :-)
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  176. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> TIL about [Unforgeable] http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#Unforgeable
  177. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> Domenic_: ↑
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  179. # [10:25] <zcorpan> heh, funny how my brain fills in words that my eyes apparently skip over while reading. i read "Let me try it blink before ..." as "Let me try to blink before ..."
  180. # [10:25] <zcorpan> of course it should have been "try it *in* blink", which my brain would probably fill in correctly
  181. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> so [Unforgeable] just maps to configurable=false?
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  183. # [10:27] <zcorpan> not just, it also make the property on the instance instead of on the prototype
  184. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> ah
  185. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> OK
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  193. # [10:36] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2551 (looks like gecko doesn't follow the html spec there)
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  195. # [10:38] <annevk> I don't understand http://blog.chromium.org/2013/10/chrome-31-beta-android-application.html given the exchange on blink-dev regarding requestAutocomplete()
  196. # [10:38] <annevk> Or does shipping and marketing a feature for Beta say nothing about final?
  197. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> annevk: afaik from chrome shipping is shipping
  198. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> there's no "let's try shipping this for beta only"
  199. # [10:44] <zcorpan> "You are FAILING HARD" LOL https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23436
  200. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> at least as far as I can glean from intent-to-ship messages on blink-dev
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  202. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2551 looks same to me in gecko as in blink
  203. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> wondering what I should be seeing
  204. # [10:46] <annevk> MikeSmith: if that's true that'd be bad...
  205. # [10:46] <annevk> zcorpan: seems someone doesn't understand plugins
  206. # [10:48] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: you sure? do you have the latest?
  207. # [10:48] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: i get false,true in gecko and true,false in blink. spec agrees with blink
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  210. # [10:59] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: stepped away from my PC. will look again when I get back
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  226. # [11:35] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: what does v.nu do in <!DOCTYPE html><body></body><!--x--></html>x ? does it insert the comment to body, or drop it on the floor, or something else?
  227. # [11:36] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@194.78.20.44) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  228. # [11:37] <zcorpan> hmm, the spec requires non-streamable behavior for conforming markup too. (replace the x with a space)
  229. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: the x after the html end tag is conforming?
  230. # [11:39] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: no but a space is
  231. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> (btw still away from my PC)
  232. # [11:40] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: and it's inserted to body but the comment was inserted after body
  233. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> ok
  234. # [11:44] <zcorpan> maybe all comments are dropped?
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  236. # [11:52] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: back at the sugar shack now
  237. # [11:52] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: you know (remember) about http://html5.validator.nu/parsetree/ ?
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  239. # [11:52] <MikeSmith> http://html5.validator.nu/parsetree/?parser=html5&content=%3C%21DOCTYPE+html%3E%3Cbody%3E%3C%2Fbody%3E%3C%21--x--%3E%3C%2Fhtml%3Ex&submit=Print+Tree
  240. # [11:53] <MikeSmith> http://html5.validator.nu/parsetree/?parser=html5&content=%3C%21DOCTYPE+html%3E%3Cbody%3E%3C%2Fbody%3E%3C%21--x--%3E%3C%2Fhtml%3E+&submit=Print+Tree
  241. # [11:53] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: that doesn't seem to use the streaming mode
  242. # [11:53] <MikeSmith> oh
  243. # [11:53] <MikeSmith> hmm
  244. # [11:53] <MikeSmith> I thought it had to be
  245. # [11:53] <MikeSmith> but maybe not
  246. # [11:53] * MikeSmith looks at the code
  247. # [11:54] <zcorpan> </head> <link> is fatal when validating but not in parsetree/
  248. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> yeah
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  250. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> so says the code also
  251. # [11:58] <MikeSmith> https://bitbucket.org/validator/validator/src/ae0fad1a06291493117dcfe52f983710245f5441/src/nu/validator/servlet/ParseTreePrinter.java?at=default#cl-128
  252. # [11:58] <MikeSmith> OK I can check it locally
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  254. # [12:14] <MikeSmith> zcorpan:
  255. # [12:14] <MikeSmith> #document
  256. # [12:14] <MikeSmith> | <!DOCTYPE html>
  257. # [12:14] <MikeSmith> | <html>
  258. # [12:14] <MikeSmith> | <head>
  259. # [12:14] <MikeSmith> | <body>
  260. # [12:14] <MikeSmith> | <!-- x -->
  261. # [12:14] <MikeSmith> | " "
  262. # [12:15] <MikeSmith> I can push it to qa-dev for you try yourself
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  267. # [12:23] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: OK http://qa-dev.w3.org:8888/parsetree/ has the parser running in non-streaming mode, I think
  268. # [12:26] <MikeSmith> http://qa-dev.w3.org:8888/parsetree/?parser=html5&content=%3C%21DOCTYPE+html%3E%3C%2Fhead%3E+%3Clink%3E&submit=Print+Tree
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  276. # [12:49] <cortexA9> hello
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  283. # [13:06] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: ok, so it just inserts the comment in the wrong place.
  284. # [13:06] <MikeSmith> oh
  285. # [13:06] <MikeSmith> wrong per the spec you mean?
  286. # [13:06] <zcorpan> yeah
  287. # [13:07] <MikeSmith> hmm
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  289. # [13:07] <MikeSmith> that seems like a bug then
  290. # [13:08] <MikeSmith> also I don't understand why it would be doing anything different from what gecko is doing
  291. # [13:08] <MikeSmith> in non-streaming mode I mean
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  293. # [13:11] <MikeSmith> ah sorry you're talking about streaming mode
  294. # [13:11] <MikeSmith> nm
  295. # [13:11] <zcorpan> right
  296. # [13:13] <zcorpan> ok sent a new email
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  312. # [13:42] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I'm hacking on the parser coce now
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  315. # [13:52] <jgraham> miketaylr: TIL that I should talk to you about testsuites and jQuery :)
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  332. # [14:58] <jgraham> "HTML5 is mostly a joke" - Ian Hickson
  333. # [14:58] <jgraham> </quote type=out-of-context>
  334. # [14:59] <jgraham> (http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2004-June/000422.html)
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  340. # [15:10] <MikeSmith> when zcorpan gets back please tell him http://qa-dev.w3.org:8888/ is now running a hacked parser that attempts to include the changes he outlined in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2013Oct/0015.html -- except for the forster-parenting change which in the parser code it's not clear to me yet how to handel
  341. # [15:13] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  342. # [15:14] <MikeSmith> hmm whoops maybe not yet .. ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException
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  344. # [15:15] <jgraham> VeryMuchTooLongExceptionNameException
  345. # [15:18] <MikeSmith> heh
  346. # [15:18] <MikeSmith> ah well
  347. # [15:18] <MikeSmith> I give up for now
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  380. # [16:13] <lrvick> So, does whatwg have an official documented stance somewhere on DRM?
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  394. # [16:43] <zewt> whatwg has stances?
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  400. # [16:57] <jgraham> whatwg exists?
  401. # [16:57] <annevk> LIES
  402. # [16:58] <barnabywalters> actually I’ve been meaning to ask for a while — how is WHATWG pronounced?
  403. # [16:58] <barnabywalters> WHAT-wug? wuh-HAT-wug?
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  405. # [17:00] <zewt> W:DWG
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  407. # [17:04] <darobin> barnabywalters: most people say what-wee-gee — but there isn't really a standard on that
  408. # [17:05] <zewt> that's the worst thing i've heard today
  409. # [17:05] <darobin> that's only because you haven't heard it pronounced in French
  410. # [17:06] <jgraham> Coming from darobin it is like the soft kiss of a lover
  411. # [17:06] * barnabywalters makes a WHATWG (wuh-HAT-wg) hat
  412. # [17:06] <darobin> jgraham: especially in French!
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  422. # [17:22] <annevk> darobin is correct
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  427. # [17:26] <Domenic_> I can't stop myself from saying "what-wug"
  428. # [17:27] <Domenic_> paul_irish: thanks :D
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  473. # [19:04] <miketaylr> jgraham: ha, cool. let's chat mid next week, currently summitting (and being generally distracted)
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  478. # [19:07] <miketaylr> (mozsummitting, not anything cool like a mountain)
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  484. # [19:17] <annevk> miketaylr: which location?
  485. # [19:18] <miketaylr> annevk: Toronto
  486. # [19:18] <miketaylr> decided to take a break from crossing the Atlantic ocean for a while
  487. # [19:21] <annevk> fair
  488. # [19:21] <miketaylr> annevk: are you in brussels?
  489. # [19:21] <annevk> yeah
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  491. # [19:21] <miketaylr> eat a waffle for me
  492. # [19:22] <annevk> hah, on it
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  498. # [19:37] <dglazkov> HTML5 is not a joke
  499. # [19:37] <dglazkov> jokes have punchlines
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  506. # [19:51] <MikeSmith> dglazkov: DRM it the punchline
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  509. # [19:52] <MikeSmith> culmination of 8-9 years of work on trying to make the Web platform a contender that has feature parity with all the other feature-overladen platforms out thre
  510. # [19:53] <MikeSmith> mission accomplished
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  513. # [19:57] <umgrosscol> How is it that the Encrypted Media Extensions are going to prevent browsers from downloading the video anyway? I don't understand how anyone thinks it's going to protect content.
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  516. # [19:59] <rtc> each webpage should have only one h1 element?
  517. # [19:59] <rtc> if this is true why then html5 specification has examples where each section has own h1 element?
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  526. # [20:30] <barnabywalters> anyone know if there’s a canonical test suite for the URL/URI standards?
  527. # [20:30] <barnabywalters> e.g. for parsing, resolving relative references
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  560. # [21:22] <Hixie_> jgraham: hey, i had quote marks in my quote! you need at worst to say something like '"HTML5 is a joke" -- Ian Hickson (internal quote marks elided)'
  561. # [21:24] <Hixie_> lrvick: looking at @WHATWG's recent retweets of the EFF's tweet and Anne's tweets should give a pretty accurate answer: https://twitter.com/WHATWG
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  571. # [21:40] <lrvick> Hixie_: Yeah, that about sums it up. Well... I will hang around this side of the fence then.
  572. # [21:40] <lrvick> W3C, I am dissipoint.
  573. # [21:41] <Hixie_> dissipoint? do you need to be put in a jar or something? :-)
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  579. # [21:49] <zcorpan> umgrosscol: https://plus.google.com/107429617152575897589/posts/iPmatxBYuj2
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  585. # [21:57] <umgrosscol> zcorpan: I understand the leverage against hardware manufacturers... especially with import laws and devices being manufactured within jursidictions... but it seems to make less sense for software.
  586. # [21:58] <umgrosscol> In the best case scenario for the rights holders, it means they get to liscence modules that browsers have to use and the unliscenced browsers get marginalized.
  587. # [21:59] <umgrosscol> I just can't imagine that there is going to be module that doesn't get cracked in short order.
  588. # [21:59] <zewt> re-read the post :) preventing it from being cracked isn't the point
  589. # [22:00] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: i can't reach http://qa-dev.w3.org:8888
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  591. # [22:00] <zewt> giving companies something to sue people who use cracked encryption over is the point
  592. # [22:00] <umgrosscol> I understand trying to sue a manufacturer... they have a brick and mortar location. How do you sue source code?
  593. # [22:01] <zewt> by suing Mozilla, or Google, or Microsoft, or Apple
  594. # [22:01] <zewt> they have offices too
  595. # [22:01] <umgrosscol> They do, but that doesn't help if they didn't write the source.
  596. # [22:01] <umgrosscol> Or even you know who did, and it's released at Public Domain.
  597. # [22:02] <zewt> none of that matters
  598. # [22:02] <zewt> it prevents Google from having a feature in Chrome to bypass DRM
  599. # [22:02] <zewt> and similar effects on other parties
  600. # [22:02] <umgrosscol> So I end up using a Swedish browser...
  601. # [22:02] <zewt> they don't care about that, people bypassing DRM themselves are 0.000001%
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  603. # [22:03] <umgrosscol> That's the bet it seems.
  604. # [22:03] <zewt> not a bet, it's reality
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  606. # [22:04] <umgrosscol> If you can only go after a subset of manufacturers, and you can't prevent imports, then you're making an edge for the manufacturers that don't comply and just circumvent.
  607. # [22:04] <zewt> (people don't pirate movies by downloading decss and copying their friend's DVD, they do it by going to the internet and downloading from someone else who already did all that)
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  609. # [22:05] <umgrosscol> If this plays out where you need liscenced plugins to view certain content, I imagine that there will be some nice browsers that offer unliscenced plugins to view the same content.
  610. # [22:05] <umgrosscol> If I had the option to buy a dvd player that didn't have regional control crap, I would.
  611. # [22:05] <umgrosscol> Such DVD players can't be imported, so I can't get one.
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  614. # [22:06] <umgrosscol> However, I can easily import a browser from wherever. Locking down the manufacture of browser software seems like it's not going to go as planned.
  615. # [22:06] <zewt> ... 0.000001%
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  617. # [22:06] <umgrosscol> At worst it ends up like Netscape vs IE.
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  619. # [22:08] <umgrosscol> zewt: Currently a small percentage. If using the mainstream browsers becomes a hassle, wouldn't you expect that to push users towards some new open source thing without the hassles?
  620. # [22:08] <zewt> using it won't be a hassle
  621. # [22:08] <zewt> (which isn't an argument for it--I'm as against it as anybody)
  622. # [22:09] <zewt> nobody is actually for DRM, except for people being paid to be for DRM. heh
  623. # [22:09] <umgrosscol> zewt: I can't think of one DRM system that I've come across that isn't a hassle.
  624. # [22:10] <zewt> not to typical users
  625. # [22:10] <zewt> (other than in particular instances, like the introduction of HDCP)
  626. # [22:10] <umgrosscol> I imagine it's also going to be a nightmare for accessibility issues.
  627. # [22:12] <zcorpan> i wonder if the accessibility card can be used to regulate drm
  628. # [22:12] <zewt> any browser implementing DRM doesn't give a shit about things the web cares about, and I'd have to assume are being paid to do it, so there are probably no "cards"
  629. # [22:13] <zewt> (incompatible with open standards, security, all the rest)
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  632. # [22:14] <umgrosscol> zcorpan: It usually makes website more difficult to develop well, and rarely gets to litigation.
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  634. # [22:15] <zcorpan> i didn't mean a browser vendor would be pushing for regulation of drm for accessibility, probably more the people that need the accessibility stuff
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  637. # [22:17] <zcorpan> i also don't think that e.g. chrome implementing DRM means that it doesn't give a shit about things the web cares about
  638. # [22:18] <zewt> it sure means that about some segment of people with influence; they're exactly at odds
  639. # [22:18] <zcorpan> yeah
  640. # [22:19] <zewt> (any guessing about the opinions of a browser vendor is really talking about some segment, of course, since the Borg doesn't make a browser, heh)
  641. # [22:19] <zcorpan> but it doesn't make chrome suddenly give a shit about e.g. security
  642. # [22:21] <zewt> it does mean they're putting other things above the goal of an open web
  643. # [22:22] <umgrosscol> zewt: I think that's probably going to end up as the biggest problem.
  644. # [22:22] <umgrosscol> zewt: Shifting focus away from interoperability.
  645. # [22:23] <zewt> not exactly what i mean
  646. # [22:23] <zewt> it would no longer be possible to implement a browser on a new platform (say, on set tops and consoles), unless the owners of the magic black boxes like you (and/or you pay them enough money) to port their black box to your thing
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  650. # [22:27] <umgrosscol> So a black box free browser wouldn't be able to view most of the DRM video ?
  651. # [22:28] <zewt> i think that's the point :)
  652. # [22:30] <zcorpan> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23255 so custom elements allow uppercase in xhtml? is that a good idea?
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  656. # [22:37] <jgraham> Hixie_: Yeah, I unfairly edited your quote :) I was actually looking for the first use of the term "HTML5"
  657. # [22:37] <jgraham> (with or without space)
  658. # [22:37] <jgraham> It's pretty funny that people still use it to mean "the open web stack"
  659. # [22:38] <jgraham> Although maybe these days that's more like the 'open' web stack
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  663. # [22:50] <scheib> What's the specification-ish way to say "user gesture required"?
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  665. # [22:51] <Hixie_> jgraham: first use of HTML5 that i know of was while i was having lunch with howcome after i interviewed for working at opera, in 2003. He suggested we should do an "HTML5". I thought he was nuts.
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  671. # [22:57] <Ms2ger> Hixie_, clearly, you were right
  672. # [22:57] <Ms2ger> jgraham, gave up on the karaoke too? :)
  673. # [22:57] <Hixie_> clearly
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  677. # [23:00] <jsbell> Shoulda called it "AJAX 2.0" instead
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  679. # [23:04] <zcorpan> i recall sometime in 2004 i for some reason was reading the WF2 spec (don't remember how i got there). i was still new to web dev in general. then i tried some of the examples, realized that it wasn't implemented anywhere and concluded that i was wasting my time trying to learn something that didn't work, and closed the tab
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  684. # [23:08] <zcorpan> around the same time, i was looking at the w3c home page looking at some list of names, and thinking for a moment what it would be like to be working with that stuff. then i snapped back to reality and thought that's not gonna happen
  685. # [23:08] <Ms2ger> Heh
  686. # [23:10] <Hixie_> hehe
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  691. # [23:13] <Hixie_> mounir: ping https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11937 (bug is closed now, pending your feedback; please reopen if you have some)
  692. # [23:13] <Hixie_> annevk: ping https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20571 (same thing)
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  696. # [23:16] <Ms2ger> Hixie_, this is for the *setter*, right?
  697. # [23:16] <Hixie_> which?
  698. # [23:17] <Ms2ger> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20571
  699. # [23:18] <Hixie_> beats me
  700. # [23:18] <Hixie_> i've no idea what the bug is about
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  703. # [23:20] <Ms2ger> WebIDL says " If the operation used to declare the indexed property setter did not have an identifier, then the interface definition must be accompanied by a description of how to **set the value of an existing indexed property** for a given property index and value."
  704. # [23:20] <Ms2ger> I guess he took that to mean that the exact words "set the value of an existing indexed property" need to be in HTML
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  708. # [23:22] <jgraham> Ms2ger: I Funnily enough I did :)
  709. # [23:23] <Hixie_> Ms2ger: oh because i only mention "set the value of a new indexed property" not both?
  710. # [23:23] <Hixie_> hm
  711. # [23:23] <Hixie_> he didn't say that, but whether that's what the bug is about or not, it's probably a valid point in and of itself
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  714. # [23:27] <Hixie_> Ms2ger: ok, see patch in bug... is that enough?
  715. # [23:27] <Hixie_> Ms2ger: anne mentioned other things too but i don't see how they apply
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  729. # [23:40] <Ms2ger> Hixie_, I'll let annevk figure out if that's what he meant :)
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The end :)