/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-10-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Oct 09 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  9. # [00:13] <zcorpan> i wonder what the situation is today
  10. # [00:15] * annevk_ is now known as annevk
  11. # [15:01] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: so i found bugs, you hadn't properly implemented my proposal because the v.nu parser's structure isn't a 1:1 mapping to the spec
  12. # [15:02] <krijnh> Ms2ger, MikeSmith: should be up again
  13. # [15:02] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: right that's what makes it harder to just quickly hack in changes
  14. # [15:03] <Ms2ger> Ta
  15. # [15:03] <MikeSmith> krijnh: thanks
  16. # [15:03] <zcorpan> (1) https://github.com/validator/htmlparser/blob/888fba3fe33c9b0fb0df76189b9d549eae176833/src/nu/validator/htmlparser/impl/TreeBuilder.java#L2534 should be commented out
  17. # [15:04] * MikeSmith commenting out now
  18. # [15:04] <zcorpan> (2) https://github.com/validator/htmlparser/blob/888fba3fe33c9b0fb0df76189b9d549eae176833/src/nu/validator/htmlparser/impl/TreeBuilder.java#L2478 should be commented out
  19. # [15:05] <zcorpan> (3) https://github.com/validator/htmlparser/blob/888fba3fe33c9b0fb0df76189b9d549eae176833/src/nu/validator/htmlparser/impl/TreeBuilder.java#L2886 should be commented out
  20. # [15:05] <zcorpan> (4) https://github.com/validator/htmlparser/blob/888fba3fe33c9b0fb0df76189b9d549eae176833/src/nu/validator/htmlparser/impl/TreeBuilder.java#L4021 should be commented out
  21. # [15:06] <zcorpan> (5) https://github.com/validator/htmlparser/blob/888fba3fe33c9b0fb0df76189b9d549eae176833/src/nu/validator/htmlparser/impl/TreeBuilder.java#L2981 add pop() before this line
  22. # [15:06] <zcorpan> that's all i found by looking at the code
  23. # [15:08] <zcorpan> well, and the changes to after after foo could be reverted since the it wasn't broken
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  25. # [15:10] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: all the after after changes?
  26. # [15:12] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: the stuff up to line 930 in https://github.com/validator/htmlparser/commit/888fba3fe33c9b0fb0df76189b9d549eae176833 i think
  27. # [15:12] <MikeSmith> ok
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  32. # [15:21] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: pushed to https://github.com/validator/htmlparser/commit/4924b651bc023ae080e99501eda473e5de510d3b but still fails at runtime due the same problem I mentioned
  33. # [15:21] <MikeSmith> I hope Henri will take an interest at some point
  34. # [15:22] <MikeSmith> in the mean time I'll make time later to try to figure out if I can make it work
  35. # [15:22] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: ok. what markup are you running to test?
  36. # [15:22] <MikeSmith> the HTML spec
  37. # [15:23] <zcorpan> single-page?
  38. # [15:23] <MikeSmith> yeah
  39. # [15:23] <MikeSmith> the validator tries to parse that at startup to extract the attribute information
  40. # [15:24] <zcorpan> ok so that sees <body> IN_HEAD
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  44. # [15:26] <MikeSmith> right
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  47. # [15:27] <zcorpan> so goes through https://github.com/validator/htmlparser/blob/4924b651bc023ae080e99501eda473e5de510d3b/src/nu/validator/htmlparser/impl/TreeBuilder.java#L2531
  48. # [15:27] <zcorpan> and then https://github.com/validator/htmlparser/blob/4924b651bc023ae080e99501eda473e5de510d3b/src/nu/validator/htmlparser/impl/TreeBuilder.java#L2888
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  50. # [15:28] <zcorpan> at least now it doesn't pop() twice
  51. # [15:28] <MikeSmith> yeah
  52. # [15:28] <zcorpan> but i don't know why it fails
  53. # [15:30] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: relevant part of the stack trace is https://gist.github.com/sideshowbarker/6901293
  54. # [15:31] <zcorpan> hmm, might have missed flush/pop here https://github.com/validator/htmlparser/blob/4924b651bc023ae080e99501eda473e5de510d3b/src/nu/validator/htmlparser/impl/TreeBuilder.java#L4004
  55. # [15:31] <MikeSmith> ok will add that
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  58. # [15:36] <zcorpan> but that's for end tags so won't change the case at hand
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  60. # [15:41] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: hmm, the trace is weird, it goes through https://github.com/validator/htmlparser/blob/4924b651bc023ae080e99501eda473e5de510d3b/src/nu/validator/htmlparser/impl/TreeBuilder.java#L5067 but the html spec has attributes on the <body>
  61. # [15:43] <MikeSmith> hmm yeah hang on
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  63. # [15:44] <MikeSmith> I've actually been running it with the W3C version of the spec
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  65. # [15:44] <MikeSmith> (build switch)
  66. # [15:44] <zcorpan> url?
  67. # [15:46] <niloy> hey guys, is this the right place to talk about "for" attribute?
  68. # [15:46] <jgraham> Potentially
  69. # [15:47] <niloy> well I am facing this problem, I am creating a label and checkbox from javascript, I want to tie them up with "for", but "for" requires string only
  70. # [15:47] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: (url to the w3c version of the spec, that is)
  71. # [15:48] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: trace with non-W3C version says
  72. # [15:48] <MikeSmith> Caused by: java.lang.ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException: -1 at nu.validator.htmlparser.impl.TreeBuilder.appendToCurrentNodeAndPushElement(TreeBuilder.java:5129) at nu.validator.htmlparser.impl.TreeBuilder.appendToCurrentNodeAndPushBodyElement(TreeBuilder.java:5064) at nu.validator.htmlparser.impl.TreeBuilder.appendToCurrentNodeAndPushBodyElement(TreeBuilder.java:5069)
  73. # [15:48] <niloy> if "for" accepted direct reference to HTMLNode, that would be cool
  74. # [15:48] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: hang one I'll get the URL
  75. # [15:49] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: https://raw.github.com/validator/validator/master/spec/w3c-html5.html
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  77. # [15:50] <MikeSmith> and https://raw.github.com/validator/validator/master/spec/html5.html
  78. # [15:50] <zcorpan> niloy: so for is optimized for the declarative case, and the association doesn't work outside the document anyway, currently (per spec)
  79. # [15:51] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: thx. so w3c-html5.html sees <body> AFTER_HEAD
  80. # [15:51] <niloy> zcorpan, so it is worth it to make "for" work with HTMLNode directly, so that I dont have to think about generating unique strings?
  81. # [15:51] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: yeah seems so
  82. # [15:52] <zcorpan> niloy: can't you put the control inside the label?
  83. # [15:52] <niloy> zcorpan, yeh I can do that, thx
  84. # [15:54] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: ok then the trace makes sense
  85. # [15:55] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: what's on the stack at that point?
  86. # [15:55] <zcorpan> the stack of open elements
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  92. # [16:02] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: dunno but I suppose I can hack in something to dump it out
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  104. # [16:29] <Domenic_> Am I right that requestAutocomplete is screaming for a promise return type?
  105. # [16:30] * [[zzz]] is now known as [[zz]]
  106. # [16:30] <zcorpan> does this look right?
  107. # [16:30] <zcorpan> <p>The <dfn title=dom-Window-devicePixelRatio><code>devicePixelRatio</code></dfn> attribute must return the result of dividing the size of a CSS pixel at 100%
  108. # [16:30] <zcorpan> zoom by the size of a device pixel of the output device, in one dimension. If the device pixel is not square, then the smaller size must be used.
  109. # [16:31] * umgrosscol is now known as umgrosscol_away
  110. # [16:32] <zcorpan> i guess "smaller size" is ambiguous if the device pixel isn't rectangular, either
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  112. # [16:35] <Domenic_> ah I see that's already in the wiki spec
  113. # [16:35] <zcorpan> If the device pixel is not square, then the smaller of the vertical or horizontal size of the smallest bounding box of the device pixel must be used.
  114. # [16:36] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: in that case of both the WHATWG and W3C copies of the spec at the point where the parser fails, the stack of open elements shows html head script
  115. # [16:36] <MikeSmith> hmm but why does it still have the script element open
  116. # [16:37] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: anyway I'll be afk for a bit
  117. # [16:37] <zcorpan> ah interesting
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  119. # [16:37] <MikeSmith> yeah
  120. # [16:37] <MikeSmith> something wrong there
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  128. # [16:49] <zcorpan> i wonder what cssom-view should do when there are several screens
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  130. # [16:50] <zcorpan> or when switching screens
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  172. # [18:10] <webchick> Hi there, folks!
  173. # [18:11] <webchick> I'm Angie from the Drupal project. We have incorporated a Dialog API that attempts to conform as closely as possible to WhatWG's dialog spec at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/commands.html#the-dialog-element
  174. # [18:11] <webchick> I'm not fluent in RFC-ese so I had a question.
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  176. # [18:12] <webchick> When a dialog has its close() method called, is it intended that the element stays in, or is removed from, the DOM?
  177. # [18:12] <webchick> Since it doesn't specify one way or the other explicitly, one of our developers is making the assumption it should stay there. But I think the *logical* assumption is that if it's no longer in your face, it's removed.
  178. # [18:13] <nod_> Hi there, I'm one of our developers :)
  179. # [18:13] <webchick> And I'm trying to figure out if the fact that both "When a http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/commands.html#the-dialog-element element subject is to be closed, optionally with a return value result, the user agent must run the following steps:" and "If subject is in its http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/dom.html#document's http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/commands.html
  180. # [18:13] <webchick> nod_: Oh hai. :)
  181. # [18:14] <webchick> And/or if there is a better forum through which to get this question answered, please let me know. :)
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  186. # [18:22] <jgraham> webchick: Since it doesn't way to remove it from the DOM, you don't remove it from the DOM
  187. # [18:22] <jgraham> Whatever is not explicitly allowed is forbidden
  188. # [18:22] <webchick> Dang.
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  190. # [18:26] <jgraham> Basically the dialog exists in the DOM always, but the display is controlled by CSS
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  192. # [18:26] <jgraham> (well, that skips quite a few details)
  193. # [18:27] <webchick> jgraham: Can I ask why that is?
  194. # [18:27] <webchick> I mean, I would expect that if it were hide()/show()
  195. # [18:27] <webchick> but it's open()/close()
  196. # [18:27] <jgraham> So Hixie_ was trying to work out what the right verbs should be the other day
  197. # [18:28] <jgraham> This seems like an interesting data point :)
  198. # [18:28] <webchick> Ha. :)
  199. # [18:28] <webchick> I'm always happy to walk into things totally clueless of the backstory and give opinions about what makes sense to me. ;)
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  201. # [18:29] <jgraham> (I'm not sure how it would work if it was removed from the DOM, really. Where would it go? IF you wanted to re-open it later would you have to keep a js ref to the dialog around?)
  202. # [18:29] <webchick> Ok, well thanks for clearing that up, jgraham! Do you mind if I copy/paste this conversation into our issue tracker? else, I can just paraprhase it.
  203. # [18:29] <jgraham> Sure, feel free to do whatever you like :)
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  205. # [18:30] <webchick> jgraham: Well, presumably it would remove it from the stack and if you wanted to re-open it, you'd start again from the "this doesn't exist in the stack yet, so make it new"
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  207. # [18:32] <Hixie_> SimonSapin: ooh, interesting
  208. # [18:34] <SimonSapin> yeah, that seems to be one of the lesser known of the "new" (few years old) features
  209. # [18:34] <jgraham> Anyone know anything about pywebsockets?
  210. # [18:35] <barnabywalters> jgraham: I had a brief look at it before deciding to use a node.js package instead
  211. # [18:36] <jgraham> This is more of an internal-API question :)
  212. # [18:36] * hober2 is now known as hober
  213. # [18:36] <barnabywalters> jgraham: can’t help then, sorry :)
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  217. # [18:39] <jgraham> barnabywalters: Thanks anyway :)
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  219. # [18:40] * jgraham has enough of a hack to fix his problem now
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  225. # [18:45] <Hixie_> bholley: should be online soon
  226. # [18:51] <zcorpan> jgraham: what about pywebsocket?
  227. # [18:51] <jgraham> zcorpan: I was going to ask about the API differences between standalone mode and mod_python mode
  228. # [18:52] <jgraham> Seems that your tests depended on request.args which is only there when running under apache
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  230. # [18:52] <jgraham> In the end I just used urlparse on request.uri to get the query string out
  231. # [18:53] <jgraham> Seems kind of annoying to have two different APIs depending on the context you are running in
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  233. # [18:53] <zcorpan> yeah i recall problems with the query string. we used standalone on t
  234. # [18:54] <zcorpan> but it was hacky either way
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  236. # [18:56] <zcorpan> https://code.google.com/p/pywebsocket/issues/detail?id=68
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  239. # [18:57] <SimonSapin> jgraham: mod_python has been abandoned for years
  240. # [18:57] <SimonSapin> and pre-dates WSGI
  241. # [18:58] <jgraham> SimonSapin: I know
  242. # [18:58] <jgraham> That isn't very relevant though :)
  243. # [18:59] <SimonSapin> sorry then, carry on
  244. # [18:59] <jgraham> For whatever reason pywebsocket uses mod_python to run under apache and BaseHTTPRequestHandler to run standalone
  245. # [18:59] <jgraham> and then exposes the native "request" object, lightly modified, in each case
  246. # [18:59] <jgraham> And they don't have the same API
  247. # [19:00] <jgraham> Which is a problem because that's the API you code against
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  249. # [19:00] <webchick> Thanks for the help, jgraham! I'll leave you folks to it. :)
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  260. # [19:25] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: background-position: right 1em;
  261. # [19:28] <TabAtkins> Ah, never mind, SimonSapin already answered.
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  271. # [19:48] <gsnedders> Random off-topic question: is there any central discussion anywhere about the long-term goal to replace SpiderMonkey in Servo?
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  275. # [19:55] <jgraham> There is no long term goal to replace SpiderMonkey in Servo
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  285. # [20:23] <Hixie_> MikeSmith: since i'm a pedant, i'll just point out (re your comment in bug 23145) that in XML the string <html/> is not necessarily a start tag... it can be the text of a comment or CDATA block, too. :-)
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  287. # [20:28] <jgraham> Or an attribute?
  288. # [20:28] * jgraham hasn't seen the context
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  290. # [20:28] <Hixie_> no, "<" isn't valid in XML attributes
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  294. # [20:31] <jgraham> Oh, XML
  295. # [20:31] <jgraham> I missed that critical point :)
  296. # [20:31] <Hixie_> hehe
  297. # [20:31] <Hixie_> yeah in HTML there's a ton of things it could be
  298. # [20:31] <Hixie_> e.g. contents of <script> or <textarea>
  299. # [20:31] <Hixie_> attribute value
  300. # [20:31] <Hixie_> something in the doctype...
  301. # [20:31] <Hixie_> etc
  302. # [20:35] <Ms2ger> Ah, Hixie_
  303. # [20:35] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.114.218.23)
  304. # [20:35] <Ms2ger> A question about the xml serialization algorithm
  305. # [20:35] <Hixie_> yes sir
  306. # [20:36] <Ms2ger> It throws for input that can't be serialized as xml
  307. # [20:36] <Ms2ger> People want to stop doing that
  308. # [20:36] <Ms2ger> Any objection? :)
  309. # [20:37] <Hixie_> what do they want to do instead? silent data loss?
  310. # [20:38] <Ms2ger> Serializing as something that's not actually xml
  311. # [20:38] <Ms2ger> Like browsers do
  312. # [20:38] <TabAtkins> That seems bad in general, if the next thing in your pipeline is expecting XML.
  313. # [20:38] <TabAtkins> Silent data loss seems better than malforming XML.
  314. # [20:39] <Ms2ger> Want to try changing that in blink?
  315. # [20:39] <TabAtkins> Me? No.
  316. # [20:39] <Hixie_> wait, what? you want the xml serialiser to output non-xml-conforming content?
  317. # [20:39] <Hixie_> wouldn't that be... utterly pointless?
  318. # [20:39] <Ms2ger> I want the spec to match browsers
  319. # [20:39] <TabAtkins> But reporting a bug on Blink and pinging abarth with it would probably help.
  320. # [20:39] <Hixie_> ok but if the browsers are violating the xml spec, that means changing both HTML and XML
  321. # [20:40] <Ms2ger> They're not violating the xml spec
  322. # [20:40] <Ms2ger> They're just returning a string that isn't xml
  323. # [20:40] <Hixie_> ...
  324. # [20:40] <TabAtkins> Only because the XML spec says "here there be dragons".
  325. # [20:40] <TabAtkins> Calling that "not violating" is pedantry.
  326. # [20:41] <Ms2ger> *shrug*
  327. # [20:41] <Hixie_> having an XML serialiser not output XML, or output non-conforming XML that literally cannot be parsed by an XML processor, seems Very Bad for such an API
  328. # [20:41] <Ms2ger> Sure
  329. # [20:41] <Hixie_> it would, indeed, call into question the very existential purpose of this API
  330. # [20:41] <Ms2ger> Sure
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  332. # [20:42] <Hixie_> i don't like giving APIs existential crises
  333. # [20:42] <Ms2ger> Sure, and I don't like my spec being dry science fiction :)
  334. # [20:42] <Hixie_> i recommend fixing the browsers.
  335. # [20:42] <Ms2ger> The browsers don't want to fix
  336. # [20:42] <Hixie_> i don't see how this could be a compat issue, since the output is pointless.
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  338. # [20:42] <Hixie_> bug #s?
  339. # [20:43] <Ms2ger> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23460
  340. # [20:44] <Hixie_> where is the "don't want to fix"?
  341. # [20:45] <Ms2ger> smaug____, want to say that? ^
  342. # [20:45] <Hixie_> are we sure it's not you who wants this changed? :-P
  343. # [20:48] <smaug____> oh, note, there is that question mark. All the browsers do something, and spec says something else
  344. # [20:48] <smaug____> so following the reality kind of makes sense :)
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  346. # [20:49] <Hixie_> the reality here is bogus, unless we can't change it we really should change it.
  347. # [20:49] <smaug____> (and the reality let's browsers to do some heavy optimizations, like https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=923913 )
  348. # [20:49] <smaug____> I'm not ready to try to change it
  349. # [20:49] <TabAtkins> smaug____: That's just a matter of changing from "throws on invalid" to "silently loses data on invalid".
  350. # [20:49] <smaug____> if some other browser vendor wants to, and there are no problems, I think Gecko would follow
  351. # [20:50] <Hixie_> i don't mind us returning the empty string or something instead of throwing an exception, but returning invalid data is bogus.
  352. # [20:50] <Hixie_> i mean, specifically here, if we return invalid data, it is unusable.
  353. # [20:50] <smaug____> ah, empty string would be find too
  354. # [20:50] <Hixie_> it's not like in HTML mode, where the parser will muddle through.
  355. # [20:50] <smaug____> s/find/fine/
  356. # [20:51] <smaug____> I definitely could accept empty string easier
  357. # [20:51] <Hixie_> Ms2ger: empty string?
  358. # [20:51] <Ms2ger> Could live with that if people want to implement
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  361. # [20:55] <jsbell> Chrome requires the new operator when constructing XMLHttpRequest(), Firefox & IE allow it to be called as a function (e.g. xhr = XMLHttpRequest()). Anyone know the story? (context: pinged about how TextDecoder should behave)
  362. # [20:56] <Ms2ger> annevk wants to break the no-new form
  363. # [20:56] <Ms2ger> I think that's silly
  364. # [20:58] <zcorpan> jgraham: so long story short, request.unparsed_uri should be consistent in both modes.
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  368. # [21:04] <zcorpan> Hixie_: Ms2ger: isn't empty string ambiguous for Element.innerHTML? surely that's supposed to mean that the element is empty?
  369. # [21:04] <zcorpan> null?
  370. # [21:05] <Hixie_> null might be even better, yeah
  371. # [21:05] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: i figured out why you were able to come up with a sanish solution for 'display' in CSS3 Display! You just ignore the two hard bits ('run-in' and 'compact')! :-P
  372. # [21:06] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: Nah, both of those are easy to put *into* the display-* framework. Their insanity is localized to their actual behavior, not their interaction with the other longhands.
  373. # [21:06] <Hixie_> i'll believe that when i see it :-P
  374. # [21:06] <zcorpan> what does compact do?
  375. # [21:06] <TabAtkins> But also, fantasai came up with a sane definition of run-in that I'm planning to put in. 'compact' is terrible and nobody will mention it.
  376. # [21:06] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Go look at CSS2 and see if you can figure it out. If you can, write a spec plz.
  377. # [21:06] <zcorpan> does anyone implement compact?
  378. # [21:06] <Hixie_> 'compact' might be dead now, yeah. back when i tried doing this, i was trying to include 'compact' which is what made it so hard to do.
  379. # [21:07] <TabAtkins> Not really, no.
  380. # [21:07] <Hixie_> ('compact' would be really useful in a lot of cases i run into in <dl>-like scenarios in UIs and documents)
  381. # [21:09] <TabAtkins> It's basically magic abspos, fitting into the margin of the following block if possible.
  382. # [21:09] <TabAtkins> If not possible, it's a normal block box.
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  385. # [21:15] <zcorpan> foolip: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23469
  386. # [21:18] <Hixie_> a surprisingly large part of my life over the past decade and a half has been taken up just reading bugzilla e-mails.
  387. # [21:19] <Hixie_> i don't know what i feel about that.
  388. # [21:21] <Ms2ger> Surprisingly?
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  392. # [21:29] <Hixie_> given that i've moved between employers and changed from QA to spec writing and so forth, yes.
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  397. # [21:44] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: what does "untested" do?
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  405. # [22:03] <Hixie_> MikeSmith: re https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14600 - should we leave bugs in Unwelcome open, so they come up in searches more?
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  411. # [22:12] <abarth> Hixie_, TabAtkins: There's a CL under review to fix some of those cases
  412. # [22:12] <abarth> I just need to some whiskey before studying it
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  414. # [22:12] <TabAtkins> abarth: Come on down to the mtv office and we'll hook you up.
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  416. # [22:15] <Hixie_> some of which cases?
  417. # [22:16] <TabAtkins> outputting malformed xml
  418. # [22:16] <abarth> < inside <script>
  419. # [22:16] <abarth> i can find the bug
  420. # [22:16] <abarth> https://codereview.chromium.org/26193002/
  421. # [22:17] <abarth> its from someone named pwnall
  422. # [22:17] <abarth> which makes me think I should read it carefully :)
  423. # [22:18] * dglazkov_ is now known as dglazkov
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  425. # [22:26] <Hixie_> ah, cool
  426. # [22:26] <Hixie_> well, consider returning null instead of firing an exception :-)
  427. # [22:26] <Hixie_> hopefully someone who cares about this filed a bug... :-)
  428. # [22:26] <Hixie_> bbiab, lunch
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  445. # [23:05] <Hixie_> smaug____: really? the key is the weak part? woah. what's the point of it then?
  446. # [23:05] <Hixie_> smaug____: like, how do you use it?
  447. # [23:05] <smaug____> that is the whole point
  448. # [23:05] <Hixie_> or why would you use it?
  449. # [23:05] <smaug____> you can add weak object->value references
  450. # [23:06] <Hixie_> so it's basically only useful as a way to annotate objects?
  451. # [23:07] <smaug____> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/WeakMap#Why_WeakMap.3F
  452. # [23:08] <Hixie_> sure, once you said it was keys all that was obvious
  453. # [23:08] <Hixie_> it doesn't answer the question of why you would use it though...
  454. # [23:08] <Hixie_> why not just hang your annotation off the object directly?
  455. # [23:08] <Hixie_> like, if it's an HTMLElement, you could just use ._mydata or whatever
  456. # [23:08] <Hixie_> set a custom property on the object
  457. # [23:09] <Hixie_> wouldn't that do exactly what WeakMap does?
  458. # [23:10] <smaug____> so you can do thing like does something belong to a set
  459. # [23:10] <smaug____> though, you could indeed just add foo._myState
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  465. # [23:19] <jsbell> Hixie: if you can hang a property off something, then yes it's equivalent.
  466. # [23:20] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@m9d2d36d0.tmodns.net)
  467. # [23:21] <jsbell> In the cases where you can't - the object is frozen, or the thing you're setting on the object is secret, or two instances need to set properties, etc then it's necessary.
  468. # [23:21] <jsbell> It could be implemented in the VM by setting hidden properties.
  469. # Session Close: Wed Oct 09 23:23:36 2013
  470. #
  471. # Session Start: Wed Oct 09 23:23:36 2013
  472. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  476. # [23:26] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  477. # [23:26] * Set by smaug____!~chatzilla@GGZYYCCCXVIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi on Wed Mar 21 17:14:24
  478. # [23:27] <Hixie_> what's a frozen object? another new ES6 thing?
  479. # [23:28] <Hixie_> i don't understand what you mean by "secret". it's just code. and two instances can just use two properties.
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  486. # [23:37] <jsbell> Hixie: Object.freeze in ES5, e.g. var o = {}; Object.freeze(o); o.p = 1; alert(o.p); ==> undefined
  487. # [23:38] <Hixie_> what's the use case?
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  489. # [23:39] <jsbell> Most of this (including WeakXXX) came out of the Caja/SES work
  490. # [23:39] <Hixie_> smaug____: the e-mail i posted when i added this was http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2012Nov/0013.html
  491. # [23:39] <smaug____> ok, thanks
  492. # [23:39] <smaug____> I was just looking for PortCollection in the messages
  493. # [23:40] <jsbell> Short version: you're trying to implement a sandbox
  494. # [23:40] <Hixie_> (for the record, i really don't care what the solution is here. i just think we should have a solution that doesn't involve essentially requiring a memory leak.)
  495. # [23:40] <Hixie_> jsbell: that sounds like a wackamole exercise in frustration...
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  500. # [23:47] <smaug____> we just can't expose gc behavior
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  502. # [23:47] <smaug____> once we do that explicitly, it will creep into other APIs too
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  505. # [23:56] <zewt> Object.freeze seems pretty horrible if it doesn't throw
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The end :)