/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-10-26 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Oct 26 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [00:24] <Hixie_> rniwa: did you see my mail?
  9. # [00:25] <Hixie_> bholley: i don't know how opera did it exactly, but you can envisage a mode where js execution operates entirely separate from the C++ stack, much like how parsing HTML doesn't use the C++ stack, and where any API that might involve spinning the event loop is implemented as two halves, one of which just queues the other.
  10. # [00:26] <Hixie_> bholley: i doubt it would be particularly efficient
  11. # [00:26] <Hixie_> bholley: but it's certainly implementable in theory
  12. # [00:26] <bholley> Hixie_: but how does JS operate separately from the C++ stack? What happens when the calls interleave?
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  14. # [00:27] <Hixie_> bholley: you mean like event dispatch?
  15. # [00:27] <bholley> Hixie_: or callbacks
  16. # [00:28] <Hixie_> bholley: you'd just treat that the same as spinning the event loop, essentially. have the C++ API implemented in a completely interruptible way, so that at the point where it would call the JS, it starts that off, queues itself again (with its internal state) as the thing to run once the script is done, then actually returns.
  17. # [00:28] <Hixie_> bholley: (i'm not saying this is a sane way to actually implement a performant UA)
  18. # [00:28] <Hixie_> (or a maintainable one)
  19. # [00:28] <Hixie_> the better way to implement what the spec does would be to use real continuations, in a language that supports those natively.
  20. # [00:29] <bholley> heh
  21. # [00:29] <Hixie_> so that you could shunt the entire stack, C++ and JS together, into a continuation.
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  23. # [00:29] <bholley> I don't think rust does
  24. # [00:29] <bholley> heh
  25. # [00:29] <Hixie_> in practice, i assume most UAs just actually nest the event loop, though that has a whole suit of issues.
  26. # [00:30] <bholley> Hixie_: which issues does the spec's approach avoid?
  27. # [00:30] <Hixie_> you never have to worry about whether you have more than one event loop going
  28. # [00:30] <Hixie_> makes it much easier to reason about when things actually run
  29. # [00:31] <Hixie_> also, should it ever be possible for "spin the event loop" conditions to return out of order, you don't end up unable to return to the right caller
  30. # [00:31] <Hixie_> also, you avoid your stack getting out of hand
  31. # [00:31] <Hixie_> and you can never return without it costing anything
  32. # [00:31] <Hixie_> just throw the continuation away
  33. # [00:31] <Hixie_> no need to be able to handle "this is irrelevant, just unwind please" cases
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  35. # [00:33] <bholley> Hixie_: I also wanted to talk to you about session history, though maybe this isn't the time
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  38. # [00:34] <Hixie_> bholley: there's never a good time for talking about session history :-P
  39. # [00:34] <Hixie_> bholley: might as well try now :-P
  40. # [00:34] <Hixie_> (unless it's not a good time for you)
  41. # [00:34] <bholley> Hixie_: well, I'm concerned that I'm too tired
  42. # [00:34] <bholley> Hixie_: but maybe I'll just try a high-level
  43. # [00:34] <Hixie_> you want to be very awake to talk about session history stuff
  44. # [00:35] <Hixie_> it's part of the whole navigation subsystem, which is probably the most complicated part of the spec
  45. # [00:35] <bholley> Hixie_: that or Location ;-)
  46. # [00:35] <Hixie_> (but don't worry! we've proven it's interoperable, so we're good! just as the HTMLWG!)
  47. # [00:35] <rniwa> Hixie_: yes
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  49. # [00:35] <rniwa> Hixie_: thanks!
  50. # [00:35] <Hixie_> bholley: well, the nav parts of Location are part of the same thing, and the security parts of Location are definitely not as complicated, they're far more localised
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  52. # [00:35] <rniwa> Hixie_: haven't had a chance to read through hit
  53. # [00:35] <Hixie_> rniwa: right-o
  54. # [00:35] <rniwa> Hixie_: but I think your response makes sense
  55. # [00:35] <Hixie_> rniwa: let me know if i can help further
  56. # [00:36] <rniwa> Hixie_: will read & respond as needed
  57. # [00:36] <rniwa> Hixie_: yeah, thanks!
  58. # [00:36] <Hixie_> rniwa: i did find a couple of errors in the spec walking through it, so thanks for asking, even though my answer was basically just "the spec already says that" :-)
  59. # [00:37] <bholley> Hixie_: so anyway. In Gecko, session history is stored at the top of the BC tree, and is represented as a tree of session history entries, each of which represents a given BC in the tree as it is currently navigated
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  61. # [00:38] <bholley> Hixie_: whenever anything navigates, we snapshot/clone the entire tree and add that as an entry
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  63. # [00:38] <bholley> Hixie_: IIUC, the spec's model is quite different. Am I correct?
  64. # [00:39] <Hixie_> bholley: i think the spec's model is isomorphic, but it's certainly described very differently
  65. # [00:40] <bholley> Hixie_: in the spec, is a browsing context parented to a document, or parented to another browsing context?
  66. # [00:41] <Hixie_> bholley: neither, precisely
  67. # [00:41] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@172.56.6.199) (Quit: tantek)
  68. # [00:42] <Hixie_> bholley: nested browsing contexts are, in most cases, parented to an element (<iframe>, <frame>, <object>, and in some edge cases involving SVG, <embed> or <img>), which themselves belong to documents, which belong to browsing contexts.
  69. # [00:42] * Hixie_ sprinkles "in most cases" and "roughly speaking" througout that sentence
  70. # [00:43] <Hixie_> throughout
  71. # [00:44] <bholley> Hixie_: do session history entries live on the browsing context?
  72. # [00:45] <Hixie_> bholley: "The sequence of Documents in a browsing context is its session history"
  73. # [00:45] <bholley> Hixie_: so this means that, when the UA decides to GC a document, the relevant session history goes away too?
  74. # [00:46] <Hixie_> bholley: insufficient detail, please elaborate
  75. # [00:46] <Hixie_> bholley: when a document is GC'ed, session history entries relating to frames within that document go away
  76. # [00:46] <Hixie_> bholley: session history entries involving that document itself do not
  77. # [00:47] <bholley> Hixie_: If the session history is just the list of documents, how does that last part work?
  78. # [00:47] <bholley> Hixie_: if the document is GCed, then it's nulled out, right?
  79. # [00:50] <Hixie_> bholley: the entries include more information than just the reference to the Document
  80. # [00:50] <Hixie_> bholley: but yeah, the sentence i pasted does make that unclear
  81. # [00:50] <Hixie_> a few sentences later it says "Each session history entry consists of a URL and optionally a state object, and may in addition have a title, a Document object, form data, a scroll position, and other information associated with it."
  82. # [00:50] <bholley> Hixie_: ok. So a browsing context has a list of entries, which include both URIs and direct document references
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  84. # [00:50] <Hixie_> yeah. traversing the history checks if the document is still alive, and if not, brings a new one up
  85. # [00:51] <Hixie_> (filed a bug on making that contradiction less blatent)
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  88. # [00:53] <bholley> Hixie_: so, consider this: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?saved=2569
  89. # [00:53] <bholley> Hixie_: (you want rendered view for this one)
  90. # [00:54] <Hixie_> yeah, i was gonna say, live dom viewer with session history, you're a brave man
  91. # [00:54] <bholley> Hixie_: basically, we have an outer frame, P. P begins with an inner frame, C, which gets navigated to C'
  92. # [00:54] <bholley> Hixie_: then, P gets navigated to P'
  93. # [00:54] <Hixie_> yup
  94. # [00:55] <Hixie_> lgtm so far
  95. # [00:55] <bholley> Hixie_: in Gecko, hitting back after the P' navigation gives you a C' subframe
  96. # [00:55] <Hixie_> chrome also
  97. # [00:55] <Hixie_> which we explain via the bfcache
  98. # [00:55] <bholley> Hixie_: but in the spec, it depends on GC
  99. # [00:56] <Hixie_> yeah, it's true that if we assume the doc got GC'ed (which i guess it did in chrome), the spec doesn't explain this
  100. # [00:56] <Hixie_> having said that, i'd argue this behaviour if the doc _did_ get GC'ed is rather dubious
  101. # [00:56] <Hixie_> because you don't really have a sane way to know how to reconstruct the right state
  102. # [00:56] <bholley> Hixie_: well, Gecko does a whole lot of work to do so
  103. # [00:56] <Hixie_> i mean, how do you know which iframe to use?
  104. # [00:57] <Hixie_> it's all one big heuristic
  105. # [00:57] <bholley> Hixie_: yep
  106. # [00:57] * Hixie_ votes to kill the heuristic
  107. # [00:57] <bholley> Hixie_: me too, but doing so is not necessarily web compatible
  108. # [00:57] <bholley> Hixie_: I mean, implementing the spec is like, 10 times easier than implementing it Gecko-style
  109. # [00:57] <Hixie_> well, the heuristic isn't either, especially in the case of web apps
  110. # [00:57] <Hixie_> web compatible, that is
  111. # [00:58] <bholley> Hixie_: the heuristic is totally web-compatible
  112. # [00:58] <Hixie_> i think it's reasonable to do it in the case of the page being static
  113. # [00:58] <bholley> Hixie_: Gecko does it. Chrome mostly kinda sorta tries to copy it
  114. # [00:58] <Hixie_> that heuristic has actually broken my pages
  115. # [00:58] <Hixie_> i've had to do all kinds of workarounds to stop it
  116. # [00:58] <bholley> Hixie_: sure. But that's your problem as a web author
  117. # [00:58] <Hixie_> i care about web authors :-)
  118. # [00:59] <bholley> Hixie_: I know. But I'm saying that you're conflating "developer-friendly" with "web-compatible"
  119. # [00:59] <Hixie_> well fair enough
  120. # [00:59] <bholley> Hixie_: they're two very different concepts
  121. # [00:59] <Hixie_> though i'm sure this breaks web apps that use iframes internally but haven't been tested with the back button
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  123. # [00:59] <Hixie_> anyway
  124. # [00:59] <bholley> Hixie_: yeah, sure
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  126. # [00:59] <Hixie_> i'm happy to spec this if that's where we're going with this
  127. # [00:59] <bholley> Hixie_: so, I'm all in favor of the spec
  128. # [00:59] <Hixie_> but i need a detailed precise description of the heuristic
  129. # [00:59] <bholley> Hixie_: and I want to try to implement the spec in servo
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  131. # [01:00] <bholley> Hixie_: but smaug is adamant that Gecko's model is necessary to avoid breaking the web
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  134. # [01:00] <Hixie_> bholley: in the case of non-static pages?
  135. # [01:00] <bholley> Hixie_: he didn't go into detail. But it sounds like this whole situation is very touchy
  136. # [01:00] <Hixie_> this is certainly a third rail issue
  137. # [01:01] <bholley> Hixie_: so anyway. Implementing the spec is very straightforward, so that's what I'm going to do in servo
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  139. # [01:02] <Hixie_> basically my view is that in all the cases where you can't tell from script that the docs got GC'ed, i'm all in favour of the browsers pretending the docs weren't GC'ed and bringing everything back. but in the case where there's a way to tell whether or not the doc got GC'ed, e.g. going back is going to rerun some script that creates iframes or whatnot, then the spec model is the only sane option. imho.
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  141. # [01:02] <bholley> (also, onpageshow)
  142. # [01:03] <Hixie_> oh pretty much any script
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  146. # [01:05] <bholley> so anyway. The spec might need to change, but at the moment it's the simplest option to implement, and I only want to implement the Gecko setup if it becomes clear that the spec model breaks the web and that servo is going to be shippable modulo this issue
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  148. # [01:05] <Hixie_> k
  149. # [01:05] <Hixie_> sounds good
  150. # [01:06] <Hixie_> if you do decide the spec needs to change, i need a description of what it should say
  151. # [01:06] <Hixie_> because i'm at a loss as to how to spec that heuristic
  152. # [01:06] * bholley doesn't look forward to it
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  267. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: any idea why http://w3c-test.org/web-platform-tests/master/dom/interfaces.html doesn't run to completion?
  268. # [09:11] <Ms2ger> It doesn't?
  269. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> there are 3983 tests in the source
  270. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> in Firefox and Chrome for me, both run only 1331 tests and stop
  271. # [09:12] <Ms2ger> How did you count? :)
  272. # [09:13] <MikeSmith> ran it locally with http://web-platform.test:8000/html/dom/interfaces.html
  273. # [09:14] <MikeSmith> and if you examine the restults results from w3c-test.org you'll a bunch of tests from teh source are not reported
  274. # [09:14] <Ms2ger> Such as?
  275. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> all of the HTMLInputElement tests
  276. # [09:15] <Ms2ger> Ah
  277. # [09:15] <Ms2ger> You're looking at the wrong test
  278. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> maybe in fact all of the HTML*Element tests
  279. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> oh
  280. # [09:15] <Ms2ger> http://w3c-test.org/web-platform-tests/master/dom/interfaces.html != http://w3c-test.org/web-platform-tests/master/html/dom/interfaces.html
  281. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> fuuuuu
  282. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> sorry for the noise
  283. # [09:16] <Ms2ger> Np
  284. # [09:16] <Ms2ger> Not sure how to make this more obvious
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  287. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> I think it's pretty clear to anybody who's being careful and paying attention
  288. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> plus one tab says "DOM4 IDL tests" and the other says "HTML IDL tests"
  289. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> etc.
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  291. # [09:21] <Ms2ger> Even then, you're not the first to be confused :)
  292. # [09:28] <MikeSmith> could just add <h1>DOM4 IDL tests</h1> to the source before <div id=log>
  293. # [09:28] <Ms2ger> Fair
  294. # [09:28] <Ms2ger> Let me go and do that
  295. # [09:29] * Ms2ger sees https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/368 landed
  296. # [09:29] <Ms2ger> zcorpan++
  297. # [09:30] <Ms2ger> denis++
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  300. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> ah cool
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  302. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> having Denis working on tests is going to be a big win
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  306. # [09:45] <Ms2ger> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/388
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  311. # [09:57] * MikeSmith looks
  312. # [09:57] <MikeSmith> btw, I wonder if wptserve can handle the kind of case that abarth describes in https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msg/blink-dev/fnWX8n6JrTg/qw1OC_P_AlEJ
  313. # [09:57] <MikeSmith> "requires sending broken unicode on the wire and controlling exactly when the underlying socket is flushed"
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  315. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: how come Critic didn't create a review for https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/388 ?
  316. # [10:02] <Ms2ger> No idea
  317. # [10:02] <Ms2ger> jgraham?
  318. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: how come you're using /resources/WebIDLParser.js instead of /resources/webidl2/lib/webidl2.js ?
  319. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> WebIDLParser.js doesn't actually exist in the repo
  320. # [10:04] <Ms2ger> That's the one that works everywhere at this point
  321. # [10:05] <Ms2ger> Except in the repo, unfortunately
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  323. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> by "everywhere" you mean only some places? because it doesn't work on the jgraham/python branch with wptserve
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  325. # [10:09] <Ms2ger> I thought that was going to get fixed
  326. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> oh
  327. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> I notice you used the passive voice there
  328. # [10:10] <jgraham> MikeSmith: wptserve should be able to do that. And I thought I fixed the idlharness thing but maybe not
  329. # [10:10] <jgraham> will check thst pr later
  330. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> ok
  331. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/388 LGTM as long as you guys know the /resources/WebIDLParser.js is OK
  332. # [10:12] <MikeSmith> but I been using /resources/webidl2/lib/webidl2.js in IDL tests I wrote so I guess I should change that in my tests
  333. # [10:13] <Ms2ger> It seems to be OK for the DOM / HTML tests ;)
  334. # [10:18] <MikeSmith> ah sorry yeah I mispoke
  335. # [10:18] <MikeSmith> it does work in jgraham/python too
  336. # [10:18] <jgraham> OK, good
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  338. # [10:18] <jgraham> and I just fixed critic which hit a known bug
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  340. # [10:19] <MikeSmith> cool
  341. # [10:24] <Ms2ger> On another note, I've found a way to reduce the review backlog: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/389
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  347. # [10:54] <MikeSmith> yeah
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  349. # [10:54] <MikeSmith> are those tests that plh added?
  350. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> weren't some really old crufty DOm tests imported in at some point?
  351. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> ah I see NIST listed in those W3C/domhtml/HTML* tests
  352. # [11:02] <Ms2ger> Yeah, the NIST ones
  353. # [11:03] <Ms2ger> With the extremely readable code that results from autogenerating Java and JS tests from XML files
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  359. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> yeah we should dump those
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  439. # [18:56] <jgraham> I didn't realise that the history navigation stuff was supposed to be GC-dependent. That seems unfortunate
  440. # [18:56] <gsnedders> jgraham: Is there any odd of you picking up the review/PR of your tests? :P
  441. # [18:56] <gsnedders> jgraham: Speaking of history navigation
  442. # [18:57] <jgraham> I don't think I can review my own tests :)
  443. # [18:57] <jgraham> But maybe I can convince someone to review them when they are workong on Servo
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  445. # [18:59] <gsnedders> jgraham: Not so much review, but deal with any feedback, etc.
  446. # [19:00] <gsnedders> I don't really have the time or motivation :)
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  449. # [19:08] <jgraham> I can probably do that
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  464. # [20:42] <rektide> does a script when executing have any context information available telling it what it's context is?
  465. # [20:43] <rektide> how does/can a script find it' origin in the dhtml?
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  504. # Session Close: Sun Oct 27 00:00:00 2013

The end :)