/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-10-29 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Oct 29 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:03] <TabAtkins> If anyone ever wanted to put railroad diagrams in their spec, a la CSS Syntax or JSON.org, Bikeshed now does that automatically.
  5. # [00:04] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@2.31.25.160)
  6. # [00:04] <crocket> Does anyone know a good HTML book?
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  15. # [00:11] <jsbell> crocket: I don't think you'll get a good answer here. It's like wandering into the records room of a Boeing factory and asking for recommendations on learning to fly a plane.
  16. # [00:11] <crocket> jsbell: A funny analogy
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  23. # [00:25] <annevk> TabAtkins: sounds like I should give it a try at some point
  24. # [00:25] <annevk> TabAtkins: make some railroads for URL and such
  25. # [00:25] <Domenic_> ooh that'd be cool
  26. # [00:25] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that'd be great. Railroads are so easy to read for simple constructions like that.
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  29. # [00:26] <Hixie> mmm, railroads
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  34. # [00:39] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Dammit, now we have lost Hixie for two months as he tries to invent a way to 3D-print model railway pieces from his web browser
  35. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> I accept no blame for this.
  36. # [00:41] <jgraham> Railroads. You mentioned railroads. You should know that's a bad idea
  37. # [00:42] <Hixie> teehee
  38. # [00:42] <Hixie> i can already 3d-print model railway pieces from my web browser
  39. # [00:42] <Hixie> it's called "shapeways.com"
  40. # [00:43] <jgraham> OK, crisis averted
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  63. # [01:53] <gsnedders> Hixie: OMG THAT IS AMAZING.
  64. # [01:53] <gsnedders> Sorry.
  65. # [01:53] <gsnedders> I may be all of the excite now.
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  69. # [01:58] <Hixie> shapeways?
  70. # [01:58] <Hixie> shapeways + sketchup = awesome
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  72. # [01:58] <Hixie> not exactly cheap, though
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  88. # [02:22] <cabanier> Hixie: was my last reply better?
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  92. # [02:24] <Yuhong> As I said before, I now consider HTML version numbering even as a buzzword a misnomer.
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  103. # [03:11] <gsnedders> Hixie: Yeah
  104. # [03:12] <MikeSmith> Krinkle|detached: yeah i had asked about that mediawiki resourceloader thing
  105. # [03:13] <MikeSmith> which plainly seems like a not-well-considered hack
  106. # [03:13] <MikeSmith> cwilso: lunch?
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  115. # [04:06] <cwilso> Mikesmith: Eiji and I are heading down now
  116. # [04:08] <MikeSmith> cwilso: ok
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  184. # [07:56] <MikeSmith> did annevk-cloud or somebody already make an idlharness test for the URL spec?
  185. # [07:57] <JakeA> Can anyone think of a high-profile site that uses web fonts on body copy?
  186. # [07:58] <JakeA> Particularly one that doesn't base64-encode the font
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  191. # [08:09] <JakeA> (no worries, got one)
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  197. # [08:17] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: you can use rawgithub.com
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  199. # [08:18] <zcorpan> oh that was mentioned already
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  201. # [08:19] <heycam> TabAtkins, can you include |details, summary { display: block; }| in Bikeshed's style sheet so that <details class=why> looks normal in browsers that don't implement details/summary yet?
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  204. # [08:34] <Ms2ger> Well, that "early next week" ended up a little later
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  207. # [08:40] <heycam> TabAtkins, also, with my current details/summary patches applied, Firefox renders it like this: http://mcc.id.au/temp/details-why.png
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  209. # [08:40] <heycam> I think I'm following the UA style sheet rules that are in the HTML spec
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  211. # [08:46] <Ms2ger> Hrm
  212. # [08:46] <Ms2ger> Should :first-child apply to the root?
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  215. # [08:48] <heycam> not really clear from the spec...
  216. # [08:48] <Ms2ger> Indeed
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  231. # [09:39] <annevk-cloud> MikeSmith: dunno
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  235. # [09:51] <SimonSapin> MikeSmith: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/rev/db9b855680ef gives a 500 error
  236. # [09:52] <SimonSapin> MikeSmith: who has access to fix it?
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  244. # [10:15] <MikeSmith> SimonSapin: seems to be working
  245. # [10:16] <SimonSapin> MikeSmith: yeah, it’s back now
  246. # [10:16] <MikeSmith> the machine isn't super reliable
  247. # [10:17] <MikeSmith> the python hg stuff on the server sometimes gets into a weird error stat
  248. # [10:17] <MikeSmith> *state
  249. # [10:18] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@213.166.174.2)
  250. # [10:18] <MikeSmith> I'll go in and check the logs and restart the server if it seems like there might be more problems
  251. # [10:20] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: can i haz a bugzilla component for FXTF Geometry spec plz?
  252. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: ah yeah saw that in scrollback
  253. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> oh man
  254. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> cgid daemon process died, restarting
  255. # [10:21] <MikeSmith> Cannot allocate memory: fork: Unable to fork new process
  256. # [10:21] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: k :-)
  257. # [10:22] * Joins: Smylers (~smylers@81.143.60.194)
  258. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> dvcs.w3.org shut itself down and restarted twice withing the last few hours
  259. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> child process 19748 still did not exit, sending a SIGKILL
  260. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> Resource temporarily unavailable: apr_thread_create: unable to create worker thread
  261. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> never seen that before
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  267. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> I restarted the server. If anybody starts getting 500's or whatever from it again lemme know
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  269. # [10:33] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: make you the default assignee?
  270. # [10:33] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: sure
  271. # [10:33] <MikeSmith> k
  272. # [10:36] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: ready to use
  273. # [10:36] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: thanks!
  274. # [10:36] <MikeSmith> cheers
  275. # [10:42] <hsivonen> do we require new APIs to use EcmaScriptish lists? do we require new APIs to use Promises/Futures?
  276. # [10:42] <hsivonen> what's the latest thinking on Promises/Futures?
  277. # [10:42] <hsivonen> is there documentation for how to write a new API these days?
  278. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> does anybody remember any discussion of http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/ResourceLoader/ResourceLoaderDynamicStyles_specification on whatwg@ or anywhere at all?
  279. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> <meta content="" name="ResourceLoaderDynamicStyles">
  280. # [10:45] <hsivonen> are all new APIs that have callback-ish things now blocked on Promises?
  281. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> "The purpose is to mark the DOM position before which dynamic styles should be added."
  282. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yes, basically
  283. # [10:46] <MikeSmith> as far as I understand it
  284. # [10:46] <hsivonen> so there's this API. and the last time I reviewed it, I said it should use callbacks instead of synchronous operations. so the WG changed it to callbacks
  285. # [10:47] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: as far as how-to-write-a-new-API docs, I think there is something around
  286. # [10:47] * MikeSmith looks
  287. # [10:47] <hsivonen> if I now say that it's no good, because it should use promises, it'll sound like "fetch me another rock"
  288. # [10:47] <Ms2ger> hsivonen, alternatively, make annevk tell them to use promises :)
  289. # [10:47] * Joins: joelcox (~joelcox@unaffiliated/joelcox)
  290. # [10:47] <darobin> there's a lot of talk about a how-to-write-an-API doc, but there's nothing good around
  291. # [10:48] <darobin> I made a braindump a long time ago but it's neither complete, nor good, nor up to speed with today
  292. # [10:48] <darobin> about once a month someone asks if they can use it as a starting point to do something better, I say yes, and nothing happens
  293. # [10:48] <darobin> that said, isn't there something in the whatwg wiki about using promises?
  294. # [10:49] <darobin> hsivonen: just blame them for not finishing faster, if they had shipped they'd be allowed to stick to callbacks
  295. # [10:49] <darobin> if they take even longer, it'll be something other than promises
  296. # [10:50] <MikeSmith> I thought there were notes somewhere at least
  297. # [10:51] * Joins: tomasf (~tomasf@77.72.97.10.c.fiberdirekt.net)
  298. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> darobin: I guess I was remembering http://darobin.github.io/api-design-cookbook/
  299. # [10:52] <darobin> MikeSmith: yeah, that's the one I said was bad
  300. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> oh
  301. # [10:52] <darobin> well, it was initially just a braindump about things that people often did wrong with WebIDL
  302. # [10:52] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-246-47.dsl.telepac.pt)
  303. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> infobot, remove http://darobin.github.io/api-design-cookbook/ from the logs
  304. # [10:53] <darobin> which isn't all that helpful for design
  305. # [10:53] <darobin> heh
  306. # [10:53] <darobin> well, there are probably a few small bits to save
  307. # [10:53] <darobin> but I wouldn't recommend it for anyone
  308. # [10:53] <darobin> anyone can steal the content if they want though
  309. # [10:53] <darobin> (assuming they have the patience to dig for the useful bits)
  310. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> well I canna find anything about Promises nor Futures in wiki.w3.org nor http://www.w3.org/wiki
  311. # [10:58] <MikeSmith> for further depression read http://wiki.whatwg.org/index.php?title=Talk:MetaExtensions&curid=1691&diff=9354&oldid=9302
  312. # [10:58] <MikeSmith> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Talk:MetaExtensions#Structured_Data_proposal
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  316. # [11:00] <MikeSmith> "authors should know which is the most modern and useful way to provide metadata" = use <meta property=""> with RDFa instead of <meta name="">
  317. # [11:00] <MikeSmith> nice quote there, though "Ian Hickson has suggested to me that what is more important than whether there are standards that define them, is whether there is any software that consumes them in a useful manner."
  318. # [11:06] * falken_gardening is now known as falken_away
  319. # [11:08] <wilhelm> MikeSmith: There are some amusing links from that discussion. Like this: http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/
  320. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> wilhelm: wow that's pretty cool
  321. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> guy has a sense of humor at least
  322. # [11:11] <wilhelm> And significant amounts of metadata.
  323. # [11:11] <MikeSmith> yeah
  324. # [11:11] <MikeSmith> "Taught myself the PostScript computer language"
  325. # [11:11] <MikeSmith> I think that's the part that did the permanent damage
  326. # [11:12] <MikeSmith> the red book
  327. # [11:12] <MikeSmith> turns out it's actually a cookbook, for cooking your brain
  328. # [11:13] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so I been trying to find one good resource on "Why use Promises?" for API design, anywhere, but no luck
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  330. # [11:13] <MikeSmith> trying to with Deferreds and other synonyms
  331. # [11:14] <MikeSmith> would be good to have something to point your WG too in your message when you apologize to them for their decision to take your previous advice
  332. # [11:15] * Joins: Smylers (~smylers@81.143.60.194)
  333. # [11:17] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, I still haven't figured out why you would use promises, so if you find something, let me know
  334. # [11:18] <karlcow> no luck with https://duckduckgo.com/?q=why+promises+extensiblewebmanifesto
  335. # [11:19] <karlcow> https://github.com/slightlyoff/Promises/blob/master/README.md
  336. # [11:19] * Kolombiken1 is now known as Kolombiken
  337. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> Domenic's slides have too many slides
  338. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: lacking Domenic_ right now I'm trying to find some Domenic_ words
  339. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> http://www.slideshare.net/domenicdenicola/callbacks-promises-and-coroutines-oh-my-the-evolution-of-asynchronicity-in-javascript
  340. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> slide 42
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  344. # [11:32] <Ms2ger> !summon TabAtkins
  345. # [11:35] <annevk-cloud> hsivonen: promises & arrays, yes; also, unlike the organization, ECMAScript was not renamed
  346. # [11:37] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Quit: :tiuQ tiuq sah woclrak)
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  348. # [11:38] <SimonSapin> annevk-cloud: do you think we should really have HTML define an "environment encoding" for CSS, or is it just nice to have? http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-syntax/#issue-b26a56fd
  349. # [11:39] <SimonSapin> to simplify the current spec of "charset attr on <link>, then encoding of the referring document" http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-syntax/#input-byte-stream
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  351. # [11:41] <annevk-cloud> If you want a well designed system, yes.
  352. # [11:54] <Ms2ger> SimonSapin, also, might want to ask hsivonen about [css-syntax] Cross-origin fallback charset
  353. # [11:58] <SimonSapin> Ms2ger: if it was an issue, wouldn’t it be for script at well?
  354. # [11:59] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@207.218.72.65)
  355. # [12:03] <Ms2ger> Oh look, my professor has Opera installed
  356. # [12:04] <Ms2ger> But Chrome and Firefox open
  357. # [12:07] <annevk> Opera was closed first?
  358. # [12:08] <Ms2ger> Or maybe IE
  359. # [12:09] <annevk> SimonSapin: security considerations between style sheets and scripts are different
  360. # [12:09] <annevk> Not sure if Ms2ger is missing the joke or trolling
  361. # [12:10] <Ms2ger> Hey, you know me
  362. # [12:10] <Ms2ger> Surely the latter
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  366. # [12:13] <annevk> Yeah
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  373. # [12:42] <hsivonen> I thought we had the CSS charset stuff figured out a year ago. Has something changed?
  374. # [12:43] <annevk> hsivonen: I wasn't entirely sure if we were decisive about <link charset="">
  375. # [12:44] <annevk> hsivonen: and currently http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-syntax/#determine-the-fallback-encoding seems to allow <link charset="utf-16">
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  377. # [12:46] <hsivonen> is that a problem?
  378. # [12:47] <annevk> hsivonen: I forgot details of XSS bugs basically
  379. # [12:47] <annevk> hsivonen: so I don't know
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  388. # [13:07] <SimonSapin> hsivonen: is there a reason the rules for encoding of script would not be safe to use for stylesheets?
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  390. # [13:08] <annevk> hsivonen: just invalidated https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=145828 Seems like that might (part of) the cause of the mess of your recent cleanup?
  391. # [13:10] <hsivonen> SimonSapin: what's the difference except CSS defaults to UTF-8 when there's no referring doc and JS defaults to windows-1252 and JS doesn't have an internal encoding declaration like @charset?
  392. # [13:11] <hsivonen> annevk: whoa. that bug is sad. thanks for invalidating it.
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  394. # [13:26] <zcorpan> does <script> fallback encoding need to work cross-origin for compat?
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  400. # [13:37] <SimonSapin> hsivonen: I think it’s the same, other than that
  401. # [13:38] <SimonSapin> the question is: should the document’s encoding only be considered in same-origin?
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  405. # [13:42] <annevk> Well, first the question is whether that's a security problem
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  408. # [13:49] <annevk> SimonSapin: I recommend looking at what Gecko / Chrome do right now
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  417. # [14:14] <SimonSapin> great, http://lists.w3.org sends Content-Type: text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1 for HTML attachments
  418. # [14:14] <SimonSapin> which apparently takes precedence over <meta charset=latin2> in my test case
  419. # [14:14] <jgraham> Yes
  420. # [14:14] <jgraham> Don't you love HTTP
  421. # [14:15] <Ms2ger> ... no?
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  423. # [14:16] <SimonSapin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2013Oct/att-0048/css-cross-origin-encoding.html is green when accessed with file://
  424. # [14:18] <annevk> I tried to summarize the GitHub discussion here: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/GitHub
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  430. # [14:25] <hsivonen> SimonSapin: wouldn't making it non-cross-origin break CDNs if there are scripts being loaded from CDNs with the assumption that the charset inherits?
  431. # [14:25] <SimonSapin> hsivonen, annevk: Firefox and Chromium do use the document’s encoding for cross-origin stylesheets: data:text/html;charset=latin2,<link rel=stylesheet href=http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20110323/html4/support/none.css><span class=&%23258;&%23733;&%23258;&%23164;&%23258;&%23168>Test
  432. # [14:26] <hsivonen> so what's the problem?
  433. # [14:26] <SimonSapin> hsivonen: there is an open issue in the spec that maybe they shouldn’t: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-syntax/#issue-ab273e4b
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  436. # [14:28] <jgraham> SimonSapin: That seems like the issue can be closed then
  437. # [14:28] <annevk> So generally the problem with overriding at the embedder's point is that you might leak data from the resource.
  438. # [14:28] <hsivonen> I'd rather not change this without a demo of a credible exploit
  439. # [14:28] <hsivonen> if a credible exploit needs HZ, let's get rid of HZ
  440. # [14:29] <annevk> However, a) the resource is required to be text/css in this scenario b) I cannot think of any encoding tricks that would allow more exposure of information using a different decoder
  441. # [14:29] <annevk> a) is not true for <script> which might be why that is somewhat more dangerous although again I have a hard time thinking of something...
  442. # [14:32] <hsivonen> pretty unlikely for non-scripts to compile as scripts
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  444. # [14:34] <annevk> I guess the scenario is that you'd have some UTF-16 JSONP stored on an intranet and using this you can read it.
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  447. # [14:35] <hsivonen> annevk: UTF-16 doesn't inherit, though
  448. # [14:35] <annevk> The same would apply to the CSS. Although using UTF-16 as a defence mechanism which does not actually work today in practice is rather broken.
  449. # [14:35] <hsivonen> so you'd need charset=""
  450. # [14:35] <hsivonen> yes, you are doing it wrong if you are using UTF-16 for security
  451. # [14:35] <SimonSapin> hsivonen: it does per http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-syntax/#input-byte-stream
  452. # [14:35] <annevk> hsivonen: CSS says "Otherwise, if the referring style sheet or document has an encoding, use that as the fallback encoding."
  453. # [14:35] <SimonSapin> is that a bug?
  454. # [14:35] <annevk> I think we considered that to be fine
  455. # [14:36] <hsivonen> oh. my memory fails me then
  456. # [14:36] <annevk> <link charset> and charset of the document <link> is in are in control of the same entity
  457. # [14:36] <annevk> so there's no need treating those differently
  458. # [14:36] <hsivonen> what does the no true Scotsman W3C Meme refer to?
  459. # [14:36] <annevk> and in fact that should become an input parameter as one of the issues in css3-syntax suggests
  460. # [14:37] <hsivonen> public-restrictedmedia?
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  462. # [14:37] <annevk> hsivonen: given jernoble seems like hober would be able to explain
  463. # [14:39] <annevk> or jernoble who is actually in this channel :)
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  470. # [14:55] <Domenic_> hsivonen: promises are finished and have been for a while. Implementations shipped a few weeks ago.
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  473. # [14:59] <MikeSmith> that picture of Lord Hakon looks like he's wearing an electric sombrero
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  499. # [15:43] <MikeSmith> Domenic_: is Takeshi Yoshino's Streams draft no longer relevant?
  500. # [15:44] <MikeSmith> I mean https://github.com/tyoshino/stream/blob/master/streams.html
  501. # [15:44] <MikeSmith> annevk: ^
  502. # [15:44] <annevk> Lol, the Notifications API does not actually define activating a notification (firing click)
  503. # [15:45] <annevk> MikeSmith: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20131028#l-440
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  512. # [16:06] <MikeSmith> annevk: thanks
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  514. # [16:08] <annevk> marcosc: what is https://github.com/sensorweb ?
  515. # [16:08] <annevk> marcosc: other than maybe a home for the serial API stuff
  516. # [16:08] <marcosc> Web Serial API
  517. # [16:09] <marcosc> more stuff will likely be needed
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  520. # [16:10] <Ms2ger> Clearly we need a Web Parallel API instead
  521. # [16:12] <annevk> marcosc: any reason we need yet another org for that?
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  525. # [16:17] <marcosc> annevk: it's nice for communities to have their own space. They might want to create a website, and other bits and pieces. Similar to the RICG.
  526. # [16:17] <annevk> because that was so successful?
  527. # [16:18] <jgraham> marcosc: It's not quite clear why it couldn't happen at the WHATWG
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  529. # [16:20] <marcosc> oh, the initial work can be done in the CG (on Gh) and then we can hand it over
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  534. # [16:23] <annevk> marcosc: dude, that totally failed last time around
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  536. # [16:23] <marcosc> really?
  537. # [16:23] <Ms2ger> marcosc, I can't say I've got good experiences with people inventing something in a silo and then expecting others to just swallow it whole
  538. # [16:23] <annevk> Yeah, each time that happens it's just a massive pain
  539. # [16:24] <marcosc> It's not really a silo. It's just an org on GH with a repo. You can just subscribe to it?
  540. # [16:24] <Ms2ger> marcosc, not useful
  541. # [16:24] <marcosc> how's it any different than the WHATWG?
  542. # [16:25] <Ms2ger> People aren't there
  543. # [16:25] <annevk> marcosc: the WHATWG has implementor buy-in, over 2000 people subscribed with an interest in this space, etc. Seems pretty clear what's different.
  544. # [16:26] <marcosc> Do we want people to subscribe to the mailing list too?
  545. # [16:26] <marcosc> that seems a little aweful
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  548. # [16:28] <marcosc> Ok, so, I don't mind moving the repo over
  549. # [16:28] <marcosc> I'll just shut it all down
  550. # [16:29] <marcosc> Where the work is done doesn't matter
  551. # [16:29] <annevk> marcosc: so if you want to write a standard, you need to have lots of eyes
  552. # [16:30] <annevk> marcosc: if you want a sandbox, you can have your private silo, but don't expect standardizing it afterwards to be a breeze
  553. # [16:30] <marcosc> Sure... I'm confused. Is this so you are automatically subscribed to the repo on GH?
  554. # [16:30] <marcosc> Is all discussion also supposed to happen on the whatwg list?
  555. # [16:31] <annevk> marcosc: it's not about what I want, it's about what you want
  556. # [16:31] <darobin> <annevk> ... and you probably want to want... what I want
  557. # [16:31] <annevk> marcosc: I would expect the WHATWG list to be kept in the loop, maybe not have all discussion there, but certainly some
  558. # [16:32] <marcosc> sure. But having people subscribe to the WHATWG firehose seems like a nonstarter to me.
  559. # [16:33] <marcosc> But I don't mind having the repo hosted there.
  560. # [16:33] <annevk> marcosc: works fine for Fullscreen and the Notifications API, and a number of other small efforts
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  562. # [16:33] <annevk> marcosc: but note that a lot of detailed discussion takes places in bugs too
  563. # [16:34] <marcosc> sure
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  565. # [16:35] <marcosc> annevk: should I just call the repo "serial" or "serialapi"?
  566. # [16:36] <annevk> and in fact until the responsive images community took a wrongheaded suggestion by someone who almost never posts on the WHATWG list to go away that was working okay too
  567. # [16:36] <annevk> marcosc: "serial" I guess
  568. # [16:36] <marcosc> annevk, I think the people from the community see it differently
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  571. # [16:37] <marcosc> unless by okay you mean getting everyoen upset and pissed off, but which yes... it was working great :)
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  573. # [16:38] <marcosc> developer community management is not one of the WHATWG's strong suites, but that's ok
  574. # [16:38] * marcosc moves stuff over
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  576. # [16:41] <Ms2ger> marcosc, in general, "here's a use case" tends to work better than "here's an API" ;)
  577. # [16:41] <marcosc> sure
  578. # [16:42] <annevk> marcosc: if you think we can be better there, you're most welcome to help out :-)
  579. # [16:42] * marcosc trying
  580. # [16:42] <marcosc> Let's see how this serial api thing goes
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  585. # [16:48] <marcosc> Ms2ger, annevk, how should we handle new Editors? Should they just be organization owners or should there be a contributor team with pull/push rights?
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  587. # [16:49] <annevk> marcosc: if this is going to be a bunch of new people maybe add a group for serial?
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  589. # [16:50] <marcosc> yeah, it's going to be a few till we work out who will lead it
  590. # [16:50] <annevk> marcosc: the current list of owners is people we feel we can trust, but if there's a bunch of new unknown individuals I'm not entirely sure I want them to be able to just delete everything
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  593. # [16:50] <marcosc> exactly my feeling too... I'll make a new group for them
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  606. # [17:02] <annevk> marcosc: want @WHATWG to tweet about it?
  607. # [17:02] <marcosc> sure, but let me finish setting up
  608. # [17:02] <darobin> marcosc: note that there's a common misconception about GH ACLs
  609. # [17:02] <darobin> if you create a group to work on a repo, don't give them admin rights
  610. # [17:02] <darobin> it might look like you're giving them admin rights just to the repo, but it actually gives them admin for the org
  611. # [17:02] <darobin> they just need push & pull for pretty much everything to do with a repo
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  614. # [17:02] <marcosc> will ping you in a few mins
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  617. # [17:03] <annevk> darobin: whoa
  618. # [17:03] <darobin> annevk: yeah
  619. # [17:04] <annevk> FWIW, anyone in this channel who wants to tweet something should just let us know. @WHATWG is community-owned, but restricted because of spammers.
  620. # [17:04] <darobin> annevk: I found out when jgraham started creating new repos under w3c, which we didn't think he would be able to :)
  621. # [17:05] <marcosc> darobin: I only gave push/pull
  622. # [17:05] <marcosc> was only going to give pull
  623. # [17:05] <marcosc> and only for the serial repo
  624. # [17:06] <darobin> marcosc: if people are going to be working on the repo, just giving them pull isn't much :)
  625. # [17:06] <Ms2ger> darobin, eh, make them explain their reasoning in PRs ;)
  626. # [17:06] <marcosc> exactly
  627. # [17:07] <darobin> Ms2ger: heh, sure, but in that case they might as well have their own forks, no?
  628. # [17:08] <marcosc> nah, that get's even messier
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  632. # [17:17] <annevk> I wonder if I should attempt to make an IDL version of ServiceWorker
  633. # [17:17] <annevk> It doesn't really seem like anyone is working on a specification either...
  634. # [17:17] <Ms2ger> Eh, specifications are overrated
  635. # [17:18] <Ms2ger> Rough consensus and shipping code is where it's at
  636. # [17:20] <annevk> Short term, maybe
  637. # [17:21] <Ms2ger> In case it wasn't clear, this was most definitely trolling
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  642. # [17:27] <Domenic_> annevk: any idea why Firefox 25 (released today) has global.PromiseResolver but not global.Promise?
  643. # [17:28] <annevk> Domenic_: no, but Nightly.app does not have that problem
  644. # [17:31] <Ms2ger> Bah
  645. # [17:34] <Ms2ger> Domenic_, bz wonders how you noticed
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  654. # [17:50] <Domenic_> Ms2ger: I saw "Future renamed to Promise" in the FF 25 for devs release notes, so I opened up my console and typed "Promise" which autocompleted to "PromiseResolver"
  655. # [17:51] <Ms2ger> Domenic_, okay, thanks
  656. # [17:51] <Ms2ger> Should be gone again in Fx26; not much we can do about Fx25 at this point, though
  657. # [17:51] <Domenic_> yeah seems fine it's not useful anyway, nobody will depend on it
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  670. # [18:04] <annevk> Okay I filed a bunch of bugs on ServiceWorker instead
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  672. # [18:11] <Domenic_> annevk: marcosc: I am going to create a repo for streams work; any interest in hosting it under whatwg/ instead of another domenic/ repo?
  673. # [18:11] <annevk> Domenic_: seems good
  674. # [18:11] <annevk> Domenic_: are you a member?
  675. # [18:11] <Domenic_> annevk: nope
  676. # [18:12] <annevk> Domenic_: are now
  677. # [18:12] <marcosc> Domenic_: sounds awesome
  678. # [18:13] <Ms2ger> annevk, so he gets to vote to throw Hixie out? ;)
  679. # [18:13] <annevk> Ms2ger: lowercase GH member ;p
  680. # [18:14] * Joins: ap (~ap@2620:149:4:304:205a:4c4b:973d:aba1)
  681. # [18:14] <annevk> although technically uppercase GH Owner
  682. # [18:14] <Domenic_> thanks <3
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  688. # [18:19] <SimonSapin> Does <link rel=stylesheet> even have a charset attribute?
  689. # [18:19] <Hixie> no
  690. # [18:21] <SimonSapin> oh. That means the whole "Environment encoding" concept I’m adding to CSS Syntax is only needed for XML processing instructions :/
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  696. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> heycam|away: Sure, I can do that (re: stylesheet for details/summary)
  697. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: We could just ignore XML PIs?
  698. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: What did you summon me for?
  699. # [18:27] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, I was wondering if :first-child applied to the root element
  700. # [18:28] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, and where the spec says that
  701. # [18:28] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  702. # [18:28] <TabAtkins> Yes it does. http://dev.w3.org/csswg/selectors/#the-nth-child-pseudo "represents an element that has an+b-1 siblings before it in the document tree."
  703. # [18:28] <TabAtkins> There's no explicit mention of parents, on purpose.
  704. # [18:29] <TabAtkins> We discussed this in the CSSWG a few months ago, and clarified the language accordingly.
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  706. # [18:31] <MikeSmith> annevk: is there an open bug for getting rid of xml:base?
  707. # [18:31] <MikeSmith> gecko bug
  708. # [18:31] <MikeSmith> or also blink bug if you know of one
  709. # [18:32] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, browsers don't seem to agree
  710. # [18:32] <TabAtkins> That's very possible.
  711. # [18:32] <MikeSmith> annevk: nm
  712. # [18:32] <MikeSmith> found https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20976#c5
  713. # [18:32] <TabAtkins> I think Blink skips the root element, frex.
  714. # [18:32] <TabAtkins> We should fix that.
  715. # [18:33] <annevk> MikeSmith: only Gecko implements xml:base as far as I can tell
  716. # [18:33] <TabAtkins> Skipping elements without a parent complicates lots of other things, like use of :nth-child in a shadow tree (there's no parent element there, just a shadow root)
  717. # [18:33] <MikeSmith> annevk: oh. all the more reason to drop then I guess
  718. # [18:34] <annevk> MikeSmith: yeah, it'll simplify a bunch of things greatly
  719. # [18:34] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: re :first-child, is that a change from level 3?
  720. # [18:34] <MikeSmith> annevk: plus I see I'm already had Cc'ed myself on that bugg
  721. # [18:34] <SimonSapin> 3 says "and has a parent" explicitly
  722. # [18:34] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah
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  724. # [18:34] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: re XML PIs, maybe, though they’re kinda in CSSOM http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom/#requirements-on-user-agents-implementing-the-xml-stylesheet-processing-instruction
  725. # [18:34] <Ms2ger> SimonSapin, well, the root has a parent, the document...
  726. # [18:34] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.114.107.18) (Quit: weinig)
  727. # [18:35] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Not according to the element tree that Selectors sees.
  728. # [18:35] <SimonSapin> Ms2ger: sorry, "and has a parent element"
  729. # [18:36] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, where's that defined? :)
  730. # [18:36] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: It's not. Yay!
  731. # [18:36] <SimonSapin> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-selectors/#nth-child-pseudo says something different from http://dev.w3.org/csswg/selectors-4/#the-nth-child-pseudo
  732. # [18:36] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, so then I claim the document is in the tree ;)
  733. # [18:36] <TabAtkins> Technically, HTML should define how it produces an element tree, but I'd be fine with Selectors defining this for HTML and XML.
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  735. # [18:37] <SimonSapin> Ms2ger: the document is not an element
  736. # [18:37] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: That means that "*" would select it. ^_^
  737. # [18:37] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, sure
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  739. # [18:37] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, sounds like your spec is broken :)
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  744. # [18:39] <TabAtkins> Yeah, it does.
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  746. # [18:40] <annevk> TabAtkins: given that Selectors needs to know about text nodes and such, it seems much more useful for Selectors to operate on DOM rather than undefined theory
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  749. # [18:42] <TabAtkins> Well, Selectors operates on more than just DOM. There's a library that runs selectors over JSON, frex.
  750. # [18:42] <annevk> Requiring your core constituencies to make that mental translation each time rather than requiring the minority to make the translation of DOM to something else seems to place the burden incorrectly.
  751. # [18:42] <Ms2ger> On the Infoset, clearly
  752. # [18:42] <TabAtkins> But the translation from DOM to Selectors element tree is trivial.
  753. # [18:42] <Ms2ger> No it isn't
  754. # [18:42] <Ms2ger> You're cutting off the document
  755. # [18:42] <annevk> If it was trivial someone would have defined it by now...
  756. # [18:43] <jernoble> hsivonen, annevk: I was referring to public-restrictedmedia, but hober claims to have multiple entendres.
  757. # [18:43] <annevk> jernoble: heh
  758. # [18:45] <TabAtkins> annevk: You know as well as I do that trivial things are often the last things to be defined. ^_^
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  761. # [18:46] <annevk> Well, I guess in this case it just seems bad to me to define it this way.
  762. # [18:46] <TabAtkins> Well, you don't want things like the Document to show up in the Selectors tree, because selecting it is meaningless and confusing.
  763. # [18:47] <annevk> And Selectors even talks about DocumentFragment
  764. # [18:47] <annevk> So if you really want to be abstract; you'll need to carefully define that abstract model in as much detail as the DOM is defined now, and then define the mapping
  765. # [18:48] <annevk> And then wonder why the DOM is not your abstract model for implementations that do not care about the DOM...
  766. # [18:48] <annevk> Something being in a tree does not mean it can be selected...
  767. # [18:49] <annevk> E.g. you cannot select a text node, but selectors assume text nodes are around
  768. # [18:49] <TabAtkins> Only insofar as pseudo-classes are concerned, and they're concerned with tons of shit that is very specific to HTML.
  769. # [18:49] <annevk> And e.g. :empty also refers to processing instructions and such...
  770. # [18:51] <TabAtkins> Yes, that's what I just said. Pseudo-classes operate on information outside the element tree, which is host-language-specific.
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  772. # [18:51] <TabAtkins> (Usually - some are just structural.)
  773. # [18:52] <SimonSapin> Ms2ger, annevk: this doesn’t change anything for :first-child, the Level 3 spec says "and has a parent *element*"
  774. # [18:53] <Ms2ger> SimonSapin, and apparently selectors4 tries to change that :/
  775. # [18:54] <annevk> TabAtkins: you can't have both an "abstract model" and then when you talk about your abstract model also talk about another model
  776. # [18:54] <annevk> TabAtkins: that makes no sense
  777. # [18:54] <SimonSapin> this looks like a bug in L4, implementations do as L3 says: data:text/html,<style>:root:first-child{background:green
  778. # [18:54] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Nah, intentional. We discussed this a few months ago.
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  780. # [18:55] <TabAtkins> We don't want :nth-child to depend on ahving a parent, as it fucks up our ability to target children of document fragments and shadow roots.
  781. # [18:55] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: I remember the discussion about DocumentFragment. Did we decide to change it for the root element too?
  782. # [18:55] <TabAtkins> It's against impls, but it's a small, likely insignificant change.
  783. # [18:55] <SimonSapin> did implementers agree to do the change?
  784. # [18:55] <TabAtkins> We discussed it on a call, so probably?
  785. # [18:55] <TabAtkins> I don't recall the details now.
  786. # [18:55] <SimonSapin> should L3 be updated?
  787. # [18:56] <TabAtkins> Don't particularly care. ^_^
  788. # [18:56] <annevk> lol versions
  789. # [18:56] <SimonSapin> I care for Servo. What should I read?
  790. # [18:56] <Ms2ger> Clearly not L4, that has gratuitous changes
  791. # [18:56] <TabAtkins> The latest spec, always. Why is this even a question?
  792. # [18:56] <SimonSapin> annevk +1
  793. # [18:57] <Hixie> i thought we agree that :nth-child() and :first-child and :only-child would match :root elements like half a decode ago
  794. # [18:57] <Hixie> agreed
  795. # [18:57] <Hixie> decade
  796. # [18:57] <Hixie> typing hard
  797. # [18:57] <SimonSapin> well, we just passed Acid 1
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  799. # [18:58] <SimonSapin> I’m don’t really bother with the newest stuff yet
  800. # [18:58] <annevk> hehe
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  802. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> It's fine to look at a reduced feature set, but never look at old specs.
  803. # [18:59] <Hixie> TabAtkins++
  804. # [19:00] <Hixie> (that's why it's bad to publish versioned specs)
  805. # [19:00] <jgraham> It's hard not to look at old specs when (unril recently) there were things where you were saying "don't look at X L3, CSS2.1 is more correct"
  806. # [19:00] <Hixie> jgraham: there's still css specs that say that (e.g. css3-content)
  807. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> I apologize that some specs are still too shitty to replace 2.1.
  808. # [19:01] <Hixie> we should just be extending 2.1, imho
  809. # [19:01] <Hixie> instead of fragmenting the tech into multiple shards
  810. # [19:01] <Hixie> but i'm not doing the work
  811. # [19:01] <Hixie> so my opinion is worthless here :-)
  812. # [19:02] <jgraham> Anyway, does anyone actually plan to implement selectors-on-JSON? It might be theoretically trivial (although I doubt it is in detail), but unless there are actual consumers it seems utterly absurd to move up the abstraction ladder just to allow it
  813. # [19:02] <Hixie> you wouldn't need to move the abstraction ladder anyway. you can just define a mapping of JSON to elements.
  814. # [19:02] <TabAtkins> jgraham: I mentioned that in reference to a JS library that does it.
  815. # [19:02] <jgraham> If there are actual consumers, given how unimportant they are compared to web browsers, it it merely absurd to do it that way
  816. # [19:03] <jgraham> Rather than making the consumers do the JSON-to_DOM mapping
  817. # [19:03] <TabAtkins> I don't understand what you're complaining about.
  818. # [19:03] <Ms2ger> Your abstraction
  819. # [19:03] <jgraham> Hixie: Sure, but TabAtkins seems to be saying that selectors needs to operate on a more abstract model than the DOM because of non-browser use cases
  820. # [19:04] <annevk> The HTML parser is defined in terms of DOM. Does not actually mean DOM is required or that you cannot parse into a weird JSON structure instead. It just means it uses the dominant most widely understood tree model to describe its behavior.
  821. # [19:04] <Hixie> jgraham: i'd disagree with "needs". you just need a mapping; it might be cleaner to have an abstraction, but it's not necessary.
  822. # [19:04] <TabAtkins> But then using the DOM directly makes Ms2ger confused, as <html> has Document as parent, but Selectors doesn't want to care about that.
  823. # [19:04] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, on the contrary
  824. # [19:04] <TabAtkins> DOM has a bunch of extra crap that Selectors doesn't need for its general model. Pseudo-classes operate on more information, but that's fine.
  825. # [19:05] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, then you could just *say* that Document doesn't count
  826. # [19:05] <jgraham> Hixie: Me too. I am just repeating what TabAtkins is asserting
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  828. # [19:05] <Hixie> why would it matter if Document counts?
  829. # [19:05] <annevk> The idea of abstraction for Selectors is nice, but given that it still references a ton of DOM concepts while failing to define a bunch of things, I think it should just give up.
  830. # [19:06] <annevk> be given up*
  831. # [19:06] <TabAtkins> Good lord, you can just file a freaking bug that says "hey, define the mapping between DOM and Selectors plz".
  832. # [19:06] <TabAtkins> The mapping was trivial enough that nobody realized it wasn't defined, because we use the same words in the same way in both trees.
  833. # [19:06] <annevk> That's not the bug TabAtkins. The abstraction layer is not even defined.
  834. # [19:07] <TabAtkins> Then file that bug, rather than bitching about how I should just give up.
  835. # [19:07] <annevk> Well I think you should define the thing in terms of the DOM. Which we use throughout all specs.
  836. # [19:07] <annevk> And is a fine abstraction for people that don't want it directly.
  837. # [19:08] <Hixie> so long as the spec defines itself properly, i don't really care what abstraction model it uses, i'm happy to let the editor figure that out
  838. # [19:08] <annevk> And maybe at some point I'll file a bug about that :-)
  839. # [19:08] <Hixie> and "this css spec is vague" seems like a bug that editors should just assume applies to all css specs they edit :-P
  840. # [19:08] <TabAtkins> What I'm going to do is define the mapping, because the abstraction is simple, and the mapping is trivial. Then I don't have to chase DOM to exclude or modify things that Selectors doesn't want to care about.
  841. # [19:09] <fantasai> You're excluding everything except Elements
  842. # [19:09] <fantasai> I don't think that requires tracking anything
  843. # [19:09] <annevk> Not for :empty you're not fantasai
  844. # [19:09] <annevk> Or for matching in a DocumentFragment...
  845. # [19:10] <annevk> Anyway... day is over
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  848. # [19:10] <Hixie> also attributes
  849. # [19:11] <SimonSapin> Hixie: This should probably be added to the HTML spec: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-syntax/#environment-encoding-html
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  852. # [19:11] <Hixie> SimonSapin: can you post about this on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14703 ? thanks
  853. # [19:11] <fantasai> annevk: ok, elements and text
  854. # [19:11] <SimonSapin> will do
  855. # [19:12] <Hixie> fantasai: well, you have to define one way or the other what the implications of comments and PIs are. and namespaces. and attributes. and namespaced attributes.
  856. # [19:12] <Hixie> and CDATA blocks, if you map to XML without mapping to DOM
  857. # [19:13] <Hixie> and DocumentFragments if you want to have :nth-* work on their children
  858. # [19:14] <Hixie> and Document if you want :root to not match :root ~ :root on a DocFrag
  859. # [19:14] <Hixie> also DOCTYPEs if you want to make sure * + :first-child is clearly defined for HTML's root element
  860. # [19:15] <Hixie> the point is just that it needs to be defined, i think
  861. # [19:18] <SimonSapin> <link charset=…> is in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/obsolete.html#obsolete , what does that mean for implementations?
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  863. # [19:19] <Hixie> it doesn't do anything with respect to parsing style sheets
  864. # [19:19] <Hixie> the only impact is on the .charset IDL attribute on HTMLLinkElement, which just reflects it
  865. # [19:19] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/obsolete.html#dom-link-charset
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  870. # [19:25] <SimonSapin> Hixie: it does in Gecko
  871. # [19:25] <SimonSapin> Hixie: it does in Gecko, BLin
  872. # [19:25] <SimonSapin> Gecko, Blink, and Presto: data:text/html,<link%20charset=latin2%20rel=stylesheet%20href=http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20110323/html4/support/none.css><span%20class=&%23258;&%23733;&%23258;&%23164;&%23258;&%23168>Test
  873. # [19:25] <Hixie> huh
  874. # [19:25] <Hixie> well, we should either fix the spec or fix the implementations
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  876. # [19:26] <Hixie> wait
  877. # [19:26] <Hixie> how are you determining that it has an effect?
  878. # [19:26] <Hixie> i get the same results regardless of the attribute's value
  879. # [19:27] <SimonSapin> I get green with charset=latin2, red without or with another value
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  881. # [19:27] <Hixie> hm, i have to reload a bunch of times sometimes to get it to change, but ok, yeah, got it to change
  882. # [19:28] <SimonSapin> this is misintepreting a UTF-8 stylesheet as latin2, and the class name has the corresponding mojibake
  883. # [19:28] <Hixie> well, i guess the question is "does anyone use this"
  884. # [19:28] <Hixie> if not, let's drop it
  885. # [19:28] * Ms2ger approves of dropping
  886. # [19:28] <SimonSapin> How can we find out?
  887. # [19:29] <Ms2ger> Even more so if some ¬Mozilla vendor wants to try
  888. # [19:29] <Hixie> (it's probably not a security risk per se in this case, but changing character encodings in this way is dodgy at the best of times)
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  890. # [19:29] <Hixie> SimonSapin: well, chrome or mozilla could add instrumentation
  891. # [19:30] <SimonSapin> I’m gonna specify it, and let someone who cares push for dropping it
  892. # [19:31] <Ms2ger> SimonSapin, do add a note, then
  893. # [19:31] <SimonSapin> ok
  894. # [19:36] <Ms2ger> Wow
  895. # [19:37] <Ms2ger> Calling in DOMParser, XMLHttpRequest, XMLSerializer and RGBColor to support you on naming?
  896. # [19:41] * Joins: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra)
  897. # [19:41] <jgraham> ?
  898. # [19:42] <Ms2ger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2013Oct/0361.html
  899. # [19:42] <jgraham> (XMLHttpRequest has bizarro naming, and not just because it isn't related to XML)
  900. # [19:42] * Quits: ebollens (~ebollens@nvpn83.ais.ucla.edu) (Quit: ebollens)
  901. # [19:42] <jgraham> (Surely it should be XmlHttp or XMLHTTP
  902. # [19:42] <jgraham> )
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  907. # [19:48] <SimonSapin> oh, re :first-child, css3-selectors has an errata: http://www.w3.org/Style/2011/REC-css3-selectors-20110929-errata.html
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  910. # [19:53] <gsnedders> Yay errata!
  911. # [19:53] <Hixie> could have sworn we agreed to that years ago
  912. # [19:53] <Hixie> like, ~2005
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  940. # [20:49] <marcosc> Hixie: do you want me to do anything with the navigator.languages proposal I have up on GH?
  941. # [20:50] * Quits: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra) (Quit: Leaving)
  942. # [20:50] <marcosc> People at Mozilla are asking what happens next with that.
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  945. # [20:54] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  946. # [20:56] <Hixie> marcosc: is there another browser vendor interested in implementing it?
  947. # [20:57] <marcosc> Well, there was that person from the Chrome team
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  949. # [20:57] <Hixie> marcosc: oh that's right. cool. then no, it should just get added in due course.
  950. # [20:57] <Hixie> marcosc: iirc it was sound
  951. # [20:57] <marcosc> Ok, cool.
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  953. # [20:58] <Hixie> sorry right now i'm in the middle of this gnarly refactoring of how scripts and ports and workers and event loops work
  954. # [20:58] <Hixie> so that it's not quite as insane as it is in the spec today
  955. # [20:58] * Quits: newtron (~newtron@199.71.174.203) (Remote host closed the connection)
  956. # [20:58] <Hixie> trying to define everything in terms of a "script settings object" for each global object
  957. # [20:59] <Hixie> rather than each script having its own referrer source, etc
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  966. # [21:18] <marcosc> sounds fun :)
  967. # [21:18] <Hixie> ugh
  968. # [21:19] <Hixie> that's not the word i would use
  969. # [21:19] <marcosc> heh
  970. # [21:23] <Hixie> the worst part of spec writing is that there's no real way to compile and test the resulting program
  971. # [21:24] <Ms2ger> Well, you make us implement it... ;)
  972. # [21:24] <Hixie> "make"
  973. # [21:24] <Ms2ger> You implement it for us in Servo...
  974. # [21:25] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  975. # [21:25] <Hixie> my other compilers don't turn around and tell me that actually, they prefer this kind of API design, and also, this file needs this or that feature, and would i therefore code that up, kthxbye
  976. # [21:25] * Quits: krawchyk (~krawchyk@65.220.49.251)
  977. # [21:25] <Hixie> :-P
  978. # [21:26] <Hixie> on the plus side, while much slower than regular compilers, my compiler for the spec _does_ tend to be better about catching bugs
  979. # [21:26] <Ms2ger> bz?
  980. # [21:26] <Hixie> e.g.
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The end :)