/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-10-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Oct 30 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] <Hixie> can anyone think of a situation where there's a Window object that's not a global scope that some script could in theory execute with, other than when script is disabled?
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  10. # [00:20] <Hixie> can anyone think of a way to have a script survive document.open() ?
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  65. # [01:07] <fantasai> Hixie: I believe you wrote tests proving the opposite in 2005 :)
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  67. # [01:08] <fantasai> Hixie: http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/CSS3/Selectors/current/html/tests/css3-modsel-27a.html
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  90. # [02:14] <jamesr__> Hixie: Window object that's not a global scope?
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  125. # [05:18] <MikeSmith> fyi dvcs.w3.org is down and I can't do anything to fix it right now because I can't even ssh into it a the moment
  126. # [05:18] <MikeSmith> likely will not be back til Europe comes online
  127. # [05:19] <MikeSmith> the lesson is, move your spec sources to github
  128. # [05:24] <MikeSmith> when did writing technical documents in HTML become such a challenge for Web developers? https://github.com/whatwg/serial/issues/3
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  133. # [05:33] <zewt> losing hope at the future of the web when even github does that "don't link to the real file, link to a page that does an html refresh to the file" crap
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  135. # [05:34] <zewt> re: no, really, copying a download link on my desktop and wgetting it in a terminal doesn't mean i want to download a 15k html file
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  156. # [07:27] <MikeSmith> kinetik: dunno if you're on the dashjs mailing list but https://groups.google.com/d/msg/dashjs/4UfYEYZ_Zno/5lMubhuqxfcJ
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  165. # [08:20] <kinetik> MikeSmith: thanks, i wasn't aware of it!
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  170. # [08:36] <MikeSmith> kinetik: cheers
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  192. # [10:24] <Ms2ger> annevk, ping
  193. # [10:30] <jgraham> zewt: I am starting to wonder if you are turning into RMS and mainly browsing the web async through command line tools :)
  194. # [10:31] <Ms2ger> Javascript is the devil's work!
  195. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> yay https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/#!topic/blink-dev/t0XiZuMey7M ("Intent to Implement and Ship: Moving DOM attributes to prototype chains")
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  197. # [10:36] <Ms2ger> Woo
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  199. # [10:37] <Ms2ger> - The new behavior makes it easy to port Blink’s C++ implementation into JavaScript and reduce complexity of Blink. For example, we are planning to move editing implementation (e.g., execCommand) from C++ to JavaScript. With the new behavior, we just need to hook DOM attribute getters/setters and implement the logic all in JavaScript.
  200. # [10:37] <MikeSmith> though still "This change will regress several micro benchmarks by 10% or so. We have been working on this project for two years and are concluding that it would be hard to decrease the regression any more without crankshafting binding callbacks to V8."
  201. # [10:37] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: yeah part that sounds pretty coold
  202. # [10:38] <Ms2ger> We'll see :)
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  204. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> V8 sure seems to introduce a lot of quirky limitations
  205. # [10:39] <Ms2ger> Well, they've had a speed advantage because their setup meant they didn't have to do some checks
  206. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> ok
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  213. # [11:02] <jgraham> "we just need to implement all the logic in javascript" - that's a usage of the word "just" that I haven't previously encountered
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  216. # [11:05] <Ms2ger> I read "we just need to hook DOM attribute getters/setters, and then we can implement the logic all in JavaScript."
  217. # [11:07] <jgraham> I think what they meant to write was "we just need to hook COM attribute getters/setters, and then arghhh execCommand my eyes, my eyes, they burn, make it go away, please Mummy, please…"
  218. # [11:10] <Ms2ger> COM?
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  220. # [11:13] <jgraham> er, DOM
  221. # [11:13] <jgraham> Although freudian slip really
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  235. # [11:59] <zcorpan> nice. i didn't know that was a two-year project already
  236. # [11:59] <zcorpan> (or i didn't know it was a project at all)
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  239. # [12:13] <Ms2ger> That's quite long
  240. # [12:13] <Ms2ger> We haven't even been working on webidl bindings for two years
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  245. # [12:31] <annevk> Ms2ger: yo
  246. # [12:34] <Ms2ger> annevk, I think I figured it out... Wasn't sure if http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#node-is-inserted would be called on all nodes in the inserted tree or just the roots of the subtrees
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  257. # [13:19] <smaug____> "We cannot observe any regression in Robohornet."
  258. # [13:19] <smaug____> robohornet is still a thing?
  259. # [13:19] <smaug____> I thought it died immediately after it was announced
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  269. # [13:34] <MikeSmith> smaug____: I don't remember hearing about it all
  270. # [13:36] <smaug____> https://github.com/robohornet/robohornet doesn't look too active
  271. # [13:37] <smaug____> robohornet was just mentioned in the google doc about getter/setters
  272. # [13:38] <smaug____> and that doc was dated 2013 Oct 30
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  277. # [13:53] <Ms2ger> xhr-1 is back?
  278. # [13:53] <Ms2ger> "Initially, we'd planned to put together a draft with only the parts that are *already compatibly* supported across the major implementations, but it turned out that most of the major features are showing *subtle differences* in behavior."
  279. # [13:53] <Ms2ger> ... and that's surprising?
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  290. # [14:03] <Ms2ger> odinho, so RESO INVALID?
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  299. # [14:18] <annevk> Ms2ger: it's only invoked for the inserted node
  300. # [14:18] <annevk> Ms2ger: if that node has descendants, they're not notified
  301. # [14:18] <annevk> Why does Ms2ger keep leaving the channel?
  302. # [14:19] <annevk> As for "xhr-1", sounds like everything old is new again.
  303. # [14:23] <annevk> Blink finally getting major IDL compliance boost: https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msg/blink-dev/t0XiZuMey7M/j9PnVUUzBuUJ
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  312. # [14:35] <zcorpan> i see 201 cases of <link charset> that's different from the document's content-type charset in webdevdata june
  313. # [14:36] <zcorpan> and 2359 <link charset>s in total
  314. # [14:36] <Ms2ger> annevk, because my class isn't in the restaurant
  315. # [14:38] <Ms2ger> annevk, and yeah, that's what I ended up with, but I was a little confused by things like... "for each node in nodes, in tree order, run node is inserted."
  316. # [14:38] <annevk> Ms2ger: DocumentFragment man
  317. # [14:38] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  318. # [14:39] <zcorpan> 808 if i also log files with no content-type charset
  319. # [14:39] <Ms2ger> Maybe it'd make more sense to use "in order", or so
  320. # [14:39] <annevk> Soon we're gonna define ShadowRoot...
  321. # [14:39] <Ms2ger> Since nodes is a list, not a tree
  322. # [14:39] <annevk> Hmm, are they not still in a tree?
  323. # [14:40] <Ms2ger> Not anymore, at that point
  324. # [14:40] <Ms2ger> Oh, for inserted, they're in the new tree
  325. # [14:44] <zcorpan> 322 if i take <meta charset> into account
  326. # [14:46] <annevk> zcorpan: Hixie: SimonSapin: I don't see the point in dropping <link charset> / <?xml-stylesheet charset?> as long as you still inherit from the document
  327. # [14:46] <annevk> zcorpan: Hixie: SimonSapin: both are in control of a potential attacker
  328. # [14:47] <annevk> zcorpan: Hixie: SimonSapin: so given that, the compatibility risk does not seem worth it
  329. # [14:47] <SimonSapin> agreed
  330. # [14:47] <zcorpan> yeah
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  332. # [14:47] <zcorpan> the motivation would probably be to simplify things if nobody uses it
  333. # [14:47] <SimonSapin> I kept it in http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-syntax/#environment-encoding
  334. # [14:48] <zcorpan> but people seem to use it
  335. # [14:48] <SimonSapin> zcorpan: do we have data on that?
  336. # [14:48] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: see above
  337. # [14:49] <zcorpan> next step would be to check if the style sheet actually contains non-ascii, but i'm not sure it's worth the trouble
  338. # [14:49] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: i can dump the data somewhere suitable. was there a bug about specifying <link charset> in html?
  339. # [14:50] <SimonSapin> z
  340. # [14:50] <SimonSapin> zcorpan: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14703#c20
  341. # [14:51] <zcorpan> not a clean bug :-) i can file a new one though
  342. # [14:51] <SimonSapin> Hixie: told me to post it there, but I can make a new one if it helps
  343. # [14:52] <SimonSapin> s/://
  344. # [14:52] <zcorpan> oh, ok then i'll just use that bug
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  346. # [14:57] <SimonSapin> zcorpan: also http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Oct/0690.html
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  348. # [14:58] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: yep
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  350. # [15:01] <zewt> jgraham: D:
  351. # [15:02] <annevk> smaug____: your comment in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23565 makes it seem as if you have not read the bug
  352. # [15:03] <annevk> smaug____: what am I missing?
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  355. # [15:07] <zcorpan> commented in the bug
  356. # [15:08] <Ms2ger> annevk, I think the argument about undefined==omitted really isn't as strong as some people make it out to be
  357. # [15:09] <smaug____> annevk: I have read the bug. And undefined !== omitted
  358. # [15:09] <annevk> Ms2ger: it's now core of the language
  359. # [15:10] <Ms2ger> annevk, it's not, it's core of what TC39 thinks the language should be
  360. # [15:10] <Ms2ger> annevk, in practice, it isn't true right now
  361. # [15:10] <smaug____> right
  362. # [15:10] <annevk> Ms2ger: unless you change ES6, that's nonsense
  363. # [15:11] <Ms2ger> annevk, and making it true has costs that may well be bigger than the benefit
  364. # [15:11] <annevk> Ms2ger: again, unless you change the direction of the language, this is not an argument we need to have here
  365. # [15:12] <Ms2ger> annevk, changing the direction of the language is fine with me
  366. # [15:12] <annevk> Ms2ger: so make it so
  367. # [15:12] <annevk> Ms2ger: meanwhile I'll skate to where the puck is going to be
  368. # [15:12] <Ms2ger> annevk, but people in TC39 seem to be so stubborn about it that it's not worth my time
  369. # [15:13] <Ms2ger> annevk, and backcompat in the DOM seems to be ignored
  370. # [15:13] <annevk> Ms2ger: have you ever engaged with them?
  371. # [15:13] <annevk> Ms2ger: just arguing with me on the sidelines is not going to do you much good and kind of feels like a waste of time for both of us
  372. # [15:14] <Ms2ger> annevk, you introduced a bug in dom
  373. # [15:14] <Ms2ger> annevk, who else should I argue with?
  374. # [15:15] <smaug____> Ms2ger: you're an editor too. Fix the bug :p
  375. # [15:15] <Ms2ger> annevk, and do you think that arguing with tc39 about this is not a waste of time?
  376. # [15:15] <annevk> Ms2ger: well, I think you're wrong and I think it makes sense to strive towards undefined and omitted being equal
  377. # [15:16] <Ms2ger> annevk, perhaps in general
  378. # [15:16] <Ms2ger> annevk, but in actual APIs, it seems to turn out to be developer-hostile or not web compatible
  379. # [15:16] <Ms2ger> annevk, case in point, classList.toggle
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  381. # [15:17] <annevk> Ms2ger: that bug is not about classList.toggle
  382. # [15:17] <Ms2ger> annevk, sure, so that makes two cases where undefined==omitted leads to a dev-hostile API
  383. # [15:17] <annevk> What exactly is dev-hostile?
  384. # [15:18] <Ms2ger> cloneNode() not doing a deep clone is dev-hostile
  385. # [15:18] <Ms2ger> toggle("foo", bar) working right iff bar is not undefined is dev-hostile
  386. # [15:18] <annevk> cloneNode() not being equal to cloneNode(undefined) is more dev-hostile imo, especially longer term.
  387. # [15:18] <smaug____> why?
  388. # [15:19] <annevk> Because it would be inconsistent with all other APIs
  389. # [15:19] <Ms2ger> I'm not convinced it's *more* dev-hostile
  390. # [15:19] <annevk> So you cannot simply pass arguments through to a cloneNode() invocation. You have to special case undefined.
  391. # [15:20] <Ms2ger> The simply "pass through arguments" point is, to use one of the words you seem to like a lot, nonsense
  392. # [15:20] <Ms2ger> That's what ... is for
  393. # [15:21] <annevk> I don't see how ... would work in an API that takes an object as argument and you just want to pass one of that object's properties to cloneNode()
  394. # [15:21] <Ms2ger> That's not "simply pass through arguments", though
  395. # [15:21] <annevk> Yes it is
  396. # [15:22] <annevk> Anyway, s/arguments/parameters/ if that makes it easier
  397. # [15:22] <Ms2ger> I fully agree that cloneNode(something that happens to be undefined) should do a deep clone
  398. # [15:22] <Ms2ger> But we can't do that
  399. # [15:22] <Ms2ger> Yay webcompat
  400. # [15:23] <Ms2ger> But making cloneNode() not do a deep clone is throwing the baby out with the bathwater, IMO
  401. # [15:23] <Ms2ger> As bz said, it's the tail wagging the dog
  402. # [15:24] <smaug____> oh, cloneNode(undefined) should definitely not do deep clone
  403. # [15:24] <annevk> I'm going back to doing something useful
  404. # [15:24] <smaug____> :)
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  406. # [15:24] <smaug____> lunch time
  407. # [15:24] <Ms2ger> Agreed to fix it as Gecko is going to implement it, then?
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  419. # [15:42] <Ms2ger> Interestingly, the only hits on Google for sobbenbunker are brucel's
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  430. # [15:58] <annevk> This is so fucked: https://rniwa.com/2013-10-29/web-compatibility-story-of-scrolltop-and-scrollleft/
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  433. # [16:01] <annevk> Where did zcorpan go?
  434. # [16:01] <annevk> I wonder how https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20976#c11 is relevant.
  435. # [16:01] <annevk> Never mind.
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  448. # [16:26] <annevk> Domenic_: should there be some kind of convenience callback for promises when they complete? E.g. rather than .then(a,a) have .complete(a) or some such?
  449. # [16:26] <Domenic_> annevk: you mean like .then(a)?
  450. # [16:26] <annevk> Domenic_: so if you have cleanup code you don't do the mistaken thing of .then(a)
  451. # [16:26] <Domenic_> oh you mean .finally(a)
  452. # [16:26] <annevk> Domenic_: that's invoked for the failure case too?
  453. # [16:26] <annevk> Domenic_: ah right, finally
  454. # [16:26] <Domenic_> yes i really want .finally
  455. # [16:27] <Domenic_> not sure if there's political will for it, we tried earlier and decided not to rock the boat too much
  456. # [16:27] <Domenic_> might be worth trying again?
  457. # [16:27] <annevk> Domenic_: let's wait until we have two stable browsers shipping promises
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  459. # [16:27] <annevk> Domenic_: and maybe some tests?
  460. # [16:27] <Domenic_> yeah seems good.
  461. # [16:27] <Ms2ger> Tests are good
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  463. # [16:28] <Domenic_> we have lots of tests for the hardest part of the API, but only for one of the sugar methods.
  464. # [16:29] <Domenic_> also want to convert to test-262 form
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  471. # [16:41] <annevk> Domenic_: for streams; is there an issue of notifying the reader of the writer having stopped writing to the stream because an error of sorts occurred?
  472. # [16:42] <annevk> Domenic_: for connection dropping, timeout, etc.
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  476. # [16:51] <MikeSmith> annevk: re https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20976#c8 the components work seems to be creating some unwelcome side effects
  477. # [16:52] <MikeSmith> the xml:base-under-another-name things
  478. # [16:52] <MikeSmith> in that specific case
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  480. # [16:52] <annevk> MikeSmith: if Chrome implements it correctly it might be okay, but xml:base has always been fraught with bugs
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  497. # [17:12] <Hixie> no opinions on how ports should work, huh
  498. # [17:17] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  521. # [18:04] <annevk> Hixie: I'm having a hard time with GC vs memory
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  543. # [18:15] <Hixie> annevk: hm?
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  578. # [19:14] <Domenic_> annevk: yeah that's generally handled by pipe, but, yeah, error notification is tricky, worth opening an issue for tracking.
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  586. # [19:33] <marcosc> Is anyone planning to (or already) implement this quota API? https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/quota/raw-file/tip/Overview.html
  587. # [19:37] <aklein> Hixie: yt? I've got a MessageChannel/MessagePort question
  588. # [19:37] <Hixie> shoot
  589. # [19:37] * Hixie is actually deeply in MessagePort right now
  590. # [19:37] <aklein> Hixie: see the attachment on https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=312962
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  592. # [19:37] <Hixie> marcosc: i don't understand why it's necessary, fwiw
  593. # [19:37] <aklein> basically I clone a port via postMessage
  594. # [19:38] <aklein> then transfer it again
  595. # [19:38] <aklein> neither Chrome nor Safari throw, even though I'm transferring the "target" port
  596. # [19:38] <aklein> I expect what ends up happening is the message (and the transferred port) end up in limbo, since the cloning process neuters the MessagePort that was expected to receive the message
  597. # [19:39] <Hixie> uh yeah, shouldn't that throw?
  598. # [19:39] <marcosc> Hixie, I'm thinking the same thing... but was not sure if maybe someone was implementing it.
  599. # [19:39] <Hixie> aklein: nobody could ever _want_ to write that though right?
  600. # [19:39] <aklein> the trick is that in a multi-thread, multi-process architecture it's hard to synchronously answer the question "what's the remote end of this port"
  601. # [19:39] <aklein> Hixie: right, it's a stupid thing to do
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  603. # [19:39] <Hixie> yeah, i could see it'd be hard to tell
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  605. # [19:40] <aklein> I'm wondering if we can relax the spec to not throw there
  606. # [19:40] <aklein> but I can admit that it seems nice to tell the author they've done something stupid
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  608. # [19:41] <Hixie> aklein: so you're saying "If any of the objects in transfer are either the source port or the target port (if any), then throw a DataCloneError exception and abort these steps" should be changed?
  609. # [19:41] <Hixie> or rather, it should only check for source port
  610. # [19:41] <aklein> Hixie: that's the line I'm asking about, yeah. source port (should) be easy enough to check
  611. # [19:41] <Hixie> we can have an async requirement later that says "if it's the target port, abort, and optinally notify the author in the console"
  612. # [19:41] <aklein> Chrome can check the target port only in a really simple case
  613. # [19:41] <aklein> Hixie: that sounds much more implementable
  614. # [19:42] <annevk> Domenic_: done
  615. # [19:42] <aklein> haven't tried IE yet to see what it does
  616. # [19:42] <Hixie> aklein: can you file a bug on me to do that? http://whatwg.org/newbug
  617. # [19:42] <Hixie> aklein: while i have you here and thinking about ports, any opinion on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2013Oct/0362.html ?
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  619. # [19:43] <aklein> Hixie: heh, I'll take a look, but I only ended up here due to a memory leak
  620. # [19:43] <aklein> will file a spec bug
  621. # [19:43] * pdr is now known as pdr|lunch
  622. # [19:43] <Hixie> aklein: heh
  623. # [19:43] <aklein> (after lunch, apparently)
  624. # [19:43] <Hixie> aklein: i only ended up here due to trying to define how scripts execute
  625. # [19:43] <aklein> Hixie: ha
  626. # [19:43] <Hixie> funny how many things end up at message ports :-P
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  630. # [19:48] <Hixie> wtf, does firefox not support MessageChannel?
  631. # [19:48] <Hixie> even IE supports MessageChannel
  632. # [19:49] <Hixie> speaking of which... any IE10 or IE11 people able to get me the results of running http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/dom/web-apps/postMessage/ports/001.html and http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/dom/web-apps/postMessage/ports/002.html ?
  633. # [19:51] <annevk> Hixie: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=911972
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  647. # [20:20] <annevk_> Hixie: will run in IE10 in a bit
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  653. # [20:21] <annevk> Hixie: 001: did not receive, 002: received
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  657. # [20:24] <aklein> Hixie: filed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23685, reading that thread now
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  660. # [20:26] <aklein> Hixie: I probably don't know enough about history in Chromium to answer that thread well, but (C) sounds the best to me.
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  662. # [20:28] <annevk> rafaelw: have you discussed with wycats what needs to happen for microtasks btw?
  663. # [20:28] <annevk> rafaelw: Hixie is apparently blocking on you guys
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  670. # [20:35] <rafaelw> annevk: I think the discuss needs input from others.
  671. # [20:35] <rafaelw> I don't see Yehuda or I convincing each other.
  672. # [20:35] <rafaelw> s/discuss/discussion
  673. # [20:36] <rafaelw> Although this reminds me that Polymer hit an issue that was apropos. I'll go add info about that to the bug.
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  682. # [20:48] <Hixie> annevk: thanks.
  683. # [20:49] <rniwa> annevk: indeed!
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  685. # [20:49] <Hixie> aklein: looks like chrome and IE make the port get owned by the Window that received it, and so don't deliver if that frame gets navigated away
  686. # [20:49] <Hixie> which isn't intuitive to me as an author, but i understand why it happens
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  704. # [21:22] <zcorpan_> i wonder if mpeg la will just remove the upper cap in the future to avoid the loop hole
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  709. # [21:29] <jamesr__> the blockage on microtasks is about what to do when a microtask spins the event loop, right?
  710. # [21:30] <jamesr__> i tried to remove the HTML tokenizer dependency
  711. # [21:30] <Domenic_> no it's about different microtasks sources being interleaved or separate
  712. # [21:30] <jamesr__> ah
  713. # [21:30] <jamesr__> just FIFO
  714. # [21:30] <jamesr__> everything else is insane
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  736. # [22:05] <smaug____> yes, microtasks should be fifo
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  740. # [22:09] <jamesr__> make that FIFO, make the parser not spin the event loop, make sync XHR + window.showModalDialog() throw an exception when called from a microtask. done
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  742. # [22:12] <Hixie> "make the parser not spin the event loop"?
  743. # [22:13] <jamesr__> Hixie: right now 12.2.5.4.8 The "text" insertion mode has a step that invokes the spin the event loop algorithm
  744. # [22:13] <jamesr__> if you managed to call that from within a microtask, you'd have a bad time
  745. # [22:13] <Hixie> i know, there's a bug about it
  746. # [22:14] <Hixie> you can't just not spin the event loop though
  747. # [22:14] <jamesr__> but i don't think the behavior of that algorithm is observably different from an algorithm that doesn't invoke the spin the event loop
  748. # [22:14] <Hixie> i mean, the alternative is to hang...
  749. # [22:14] <jamesr__> i think you can
  750. # [22:14] <jamesr__> nah
  751. # [22:14] <jamesr__> you can just refactor it. i send a proposal to whatwg a month ago, you replied, and i haven't had a chance to respond yet
  752. # [22:14] <jamesr__> we don't actually spin the event loop in blink
  753. # [22:14] <jamesr__> i doubt any browser really does
  754. # [22:14] <Hixie> if you don't return to the event loop, the event loop doesn't pump, so you can't do anything that requires the event loop
  755. # [22:15] <Hixie> since the parser is waiting for hte event loop to pump something...
  756. # [22:15] <jamesr__> you just return
  757. # [22:15] <Hixie> (https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20821)
  758. # [22:15] <Hixie> returning is what spinning the event loop is
  759. # [22:16] <Hixie> "spin the event loop" is just "remember where you are, return, and then when the condition is met, queue a task to resume"
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  762. # [22:19] <jamesr__> hm, well couldn't you just return to running microtasks?
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  764. # [22:20] <Hixie> sure, the parser isn't a problem here
  765. # [22:20] <Hixie> it's showModalDialog() that's the probelm
  766. # [22:20] <Hixie> problem
  767. # [22:21] <Hixie> and document.close()
  768. # [22:21] <Hixie> well, actually, i guess the parser is too
  769. # [22:21] <Hixie> the problem is that the spec says to suspend the current task
  770. # [22:21] <Hixie> and there's no task running in a micortask
  771. # [22:21] <Hixie> microtask
  772. # [22:22] <jamesr__> ah, but you don't need to suspend the current task
  773. # [22:22] <jamesr__> since there's nothing to keep track of. once you hit the step in the algorithm that would spin the event loop you can just run the rest of the steps asynchronously
  774. # [22:22] <jamesr__> there's no context to return to
  775. # [22:22] <Hixie> there is in showModalDialog()
  776. # [22:22] <jamesr__> right. that should throw if called in a microtask
  777. # [22:23] <Hixie> i proposed that, people didn't like it
  778. # [22:23] <Hixie> see e.g. https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20821#c3 #c4 and #c5
  779. # [22:24] <jamesr__> hrm
  780. # [22:25] <jamesr__> well, i suppose if folks feel that having showModalDialog work in microtasks is important they can propose a way to make it work
  781. # [22:25] <Hixie> i proposed a way to do that too (see the end of that bug)
  782. # [22:26] <Hixie> it's just waiting on dom to be edited, but anne wants something else to be resolved first
  783. # [22:26] <Hixie> not sure what that is exactly, but it's in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22296
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  785. # [22:39] * sicking wishes showModalDialog would just die a painful death
  786. # [22:40] <Hixie> we could make it die quicker by making it throw here
  787. # [22:40] <sicking> does anyone know how much it's used? Event-loop spinning is terrible for both authors and implementors
  788. # [22:40] <Hixie> i don't think it's used much on the open web
  789. # [22:40] <Hixie> more so probably in intranets and obscure web apps
  790. # [22:41] <Hixie> (in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20821#c3 you argued it shouldn't throw, fwiw)
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  792. # [22:41] <sicking> i think we implemented it because it was used on some yahoo property
  793. # [22:41] <Hixie> i know the chrome guys keep trying to kill it
  794. # [22:41] <Hixie> so if you want some support, you can definitely find it there :-)
  795. # [22:42] <Hixie> support in a quest to kill it, i mean
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  797. # [22:43] <sicking> Hixie: got any names?
  798. # [22:43] <Hixie> jamesr__ (see above), aklein, abarth...
  799. # [22:44] <abarth> SHOW MODAL DIALOG
  800. # [22:44] <abarth> that thing is a disaster
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  802. # [22:45] <sicking> abarth: does chrome do warnings for deprecated APIs?
  803. # [22:45] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  804. # [22:46] <sicking> abarth: i.e. would you guys be willing to add a warning anytime its used and gather stats on how often that is?
  805. # [22:46] <abarth> sure
  806. # [22:46] <sicking> great, i bet we could do that too. I'll email
  807. # [22:46] <abarth> I'll add it right now
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  809. # [22:47] <sicking> yay!
  810. # [22:47] <aklein> abarth: will happily lgtm such a usecounter
  811. # [22:47] <sicking> Hixie: does the new <dialog> still support modal (as in sync and event-loop-spinning) APIs?
  812. # [22:47] <Hixie> sicking: see how eager they are? i'm telling you, they hate it ;-)
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  814. # [22:48] <Hixie> sicking: no
  815. # [22:48] <sicking> Hixie: great
  816. # [22:48] <Hixie> sicking: you call showModal() and it returns right away
  817. # [22:48] <rafaelw> sicking: I thought the issue with showModalDialog was OutlookWebAccess uses it.
  818. # [22:48] <sicking> nice
  819. # [22:48] <Hixie> sicking: if it takes long enough for <dialog> to get figured out, it might get updated to return a promise
  820. # [22:48] <Hixie> sicking: for now it fires an event on the <dialog> when closed
  821. # [22:50] <jamesr__> every now and then we try to kill it and find another page that depends on it that we can't break
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  823. # [22:50] <jamesr__> but it's worth trying again
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  825. # [22:51] <sicking> adding warnings first tends to be a good way to give it a declining usage rate
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  827. # [22:51] <sicking> rather than an increasing one "because it's there"
  828. # [22:51] <sicking> killing it at this point is likely too early, but it's not too early to start driving down adoption
  829. # [22:52] <jamesr__> we only barely support it
  830. # [22:54] <sicking> it was a pretty late addition for us. I'm sad that we didn't resist harder.
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  833. # [22:57] <zcorpan_> i see 65 showModalDialogs in http://webdevdata.org june data set (no external scripts)
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  835. # [23:00] <zcorpan_> sicking: does warnings work for decreasing usage?
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  837. # [23:01] <zcorpan_> sicking: absolute usage, that is?
  838. # [23:01] <sicking> zcorpan_: i don't actually have hard data. But I don't know if we're measuring it anywhere. What I do know is that we've received relatively little complaints about removing APIs once we've been warning about them for a while. Much more complaints when we remove APIs without warning first. But that could be a conicidence.
  839. # [23:06] <zcorpan_> sicking: is there a list of things you are warning about or have warned about, with start-end dates?
  840. # [23:09] <sicking> zcorpan_: see this file and its history: http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/base/public/nsDeprecatedOperationList.h
  841. # [23:09] <zcorpan_> sicking: thx
  842. # [23:10] <sicking> zcorpan_: warning text here: http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/dom/locales/en-US/chrome/dom/dom.properties#47
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  846. # [23:19] <zcorpan_> mutation events seems like a suitable thing to check for
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  848. # [23:21] <zcorpan_> although that sort of thing is likely to be in external scripts maybe
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  850. # [23:22] <sicking> seems like we're already warning, no?
  851. # [23:24] <zcorpan_> yes. i mean check the usage of it and see if it has changed over time
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  855. # [23:28] <zcorpan_> 97 showModalDialogs in webdevdata's september data set (102,000 pages). so ~0.1% use showModalDialog in inline scripts
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  862. # [23:32] <Domenic_> I ... I may have used showModalDialog ... don't hurt me ... https://github.com/NobleJS/setImmediate/blob/master/qUnitTest/tests.js#L80-L96
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  868. # [23:48] <jamesr__> that's a silly test
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  870. # [23:48] <Domenic_> nah, it failed before i added some interesting code
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  877. # [23:56] <zcorpan_> sicking: march 2012, 0 instances of mutation events (small dataset though, i'm downloading the bigger december 2012 dataset now). september 2013, 86 instances out of 102,000 pages
  878. # [23:57] <sicking> zcorpan_: what dataset are you looking at? some set of urls? Or usage statistics from some browser?
  879. # [23:57] <zcorpan_> sicking: http://webdevdata.org
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  881. # [23:58] <sicking> that's cool
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  883. # [23:58] <sicking> i don't know if that's an approach that would make me feel comfortable with removing an API implementation though...
  884. # Session Close: Thu Oct 31 00:00:00 2013

The end :)