/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-10-31 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Oct 31 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Joins: nimbu (~nimbu@sjfw1-a.adobe.com)
  4. # [00:00] <zcorpan_> i agree
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  8. # [00:01] <Hixie> the bias towards home pages in these public data sets is the biggest problem i've seen with them
  9. # [00:01] <Hixie> home pages are a different kettle of fish entirely to the majority of web content, in my experience
  10. # [00:01] <zcorpan_> yeah, and lack of external scripts and styles is also a problem
  11. # [00:02] <Hixie> yeah
  12. # [00:02] <Hixie> (still, better than nothing)
  13. # [00:02] <Hixie> lack of external scripts and styles was the biggest problem i had doing research at google
  14. # [00:02] <zcorpan_> i've filed bugs about that but i haven't done any work to fix it, and it appears no one else has either
  15. # [00:03] <zewt> (what does "home pages" mean, exactly)
  16. # [00:04] <gsnedders> How does CommonCrawl stand up, BTW?
  17. # [00:04] <zcorpan_> zewt: GET /
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  19. # [00:05] <zewt> "home pages" to me means "my personal website" (which seem not that common these days, overall)
  20. # [00:05] <TabAtkins> "the facebook home page" clearly means www.facebook.com, on the other hadn.
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  22. # [00:05] <zewt> that's pretty meaningless to me
  23. # [00:06] <TabAtkins> Shrug, ok.
  24. # [00:06] <zewt> most people would probably interpret that as the page you see when logged in (not the login page), which incidentally are both served as "www.facebook.com"
  25. # [00:06] <Hixie> "home page" is pretty much industry standard speak for "/"
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  28. # [00:07] <zcorpan_> gsnedders: how do i use it?
  29. # [00:08] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: Practically, you use Elastic MapReduce. The dataset, uncompressed, is over 100TB, so one can't really download it.
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  34. # [00:11] <zewt> "XMLHttpRequest Level 1" :|
  35. # [00:12] <zcorpan_> gsnedders: is it free to run searches? i don't even see where to start. i tried creating an account but don't like to continue when it requires my credit card details :-|
  36. # [00:12] <zcorpan_> also, amazon account registration fails at handling non-ascii input
  37. # [00:13] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: No, you need to have credit for AWS server time
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  39. # [00:13] * gsnedders realizes why he can't ssh into his desktop
  40. # [00:14] <gsnedders> It's not turned on.
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  42. # [00:16] <odinho> classic fault with modern computers.
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  46. # [00:19] <zcorpan_> gsnedders: can i do this sort of thing with Elastic MapReduce? http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14703#c21
  47. # [00:21] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: You can do anything! Typically with Java, but anything!
  48. # [00:21] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: Also doing stuff on the entire dataset is kinda expensive.
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  52. # [00:26] <zcorpan_> gsnedders: ok, so on the plus side it has deep pages. it doesn't seem to have external styles or scripts. and i'm totally unfamiliar with how to run the searches, and i have to pay for it
  53. # [00:30] <Hixie> oh bummer, something broke in my bug updating code
  54. # [00:30] <zewt> who's going to say it
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  58. # [00:35] <TabAtkins> I tried to report a bug about ti, but...
  59. # [00:35] <Hixie> i don't understand what's wrong
  60. # [00:36] <Hixie> it's complaining about a bad token
  61. # [00:36] <Hixie> but the token is right...
  62. # [00:37] <Hixie> the hell
  63. # [00:37] <Hixie> TabAtkins: the bug _reporting_ code is actually fine :-P
  64. # [00:38] <Hixie> it's only the script that updates the bug with the diff that's broken
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  94. # [01:56] <JakeA> Lazy question about the Streams API incoming, brace for impact…
  95. # [01:56] <JakeA> Can you have two listeners for the same stream, or is the intent to create two streams?
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  97. # [01:57] <JakeA> Eg, if I was returning a stream from a method, but also wanted to feed the output into storage
  98. # [01:58] <JakeA> Would I return one stream, add my own 'listeners' for the offline storage, then return the stream so the user could add their own
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  101. # [01:58] <JakeA> or would I return two streams to the same resource, one to feed to the storage, and another to return
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  118. # [02:31] <JakeA> (read the spec, looks like streams are single-use, so two streams would need to be created
  119. # [02:31] <JakeA> )
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  138. # [03:35] <rastus_vernon> Thinking of it, why isn't border-width called border-thickness?
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  226. # [10:07] <Ms2ger> "@csswg welcomes Daniel Glazman from Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. as a new member of the @csswg ^DG"
  227. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> the sound of one chair clapping
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  241. # [10:41] <zcorpan> 31 mutation event uses in 2012-dec
  242. # [10:43] <zcorpan> so less than 0.1%
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  245. # [10:51] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: you collecting data to support removing mutation events?
  246. # [10:51] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: no, i was curious to see if firefox issuing warnings for something meant that usage of it decreased over time
  247. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> ok
  248. # [10:52] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: for mutation events, it hasn't decreased between dec 2012 and sep 2013 looking at webdevdata
  249. # [10:53] <zcorpan> firefox started warning in march 2012
  250. # [10:53] <MikeSmith> it's probably just all the same sites using it
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  253. # [11:15] <darobin> zcorpan: do you have the list of sites handy?
  254. # [11:15] <zcorpan> darobin: that use mutation events?
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  256. # [11:16] <darobin> yeah
  257. # [11:20] <zcorpan> http://pastebin.com/9MyByTa9 http://pastebin.com/cmydcCwQ
  258. # [11:23] <darobin> zcorpan: thanks!
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  295. # [13:21] <zcorpan> annevk: multi-browser bug filer, yes please
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  316. # [14:08] <annevk> I'm missing zcorpan in http://foolip.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/webtech.jpg
  317. # [14:09] <annevk> and a whole bunch of other people. Did it really shrink that much?
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  319. # [14:11] <zcorpan> no, it grew by most people on the picture. the rest of us already had a f2f like 2 weeks before so didn't have to join
  320. # [14:11] <hsivonen> "that's a small team" was my thought, too
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  322. # [14:14] <MikeSmith> Erik's beard getting bigger
  323. # [14:15] <MikeSmith> soon he'll qualify for the IETF
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  325. # [14:16] <darobin> ouch
  326. # [14:16] <MikeSmith> looking forward to seeing zcorpan with a Viking beard
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  329. # [14:16] <annevk> zcorpan: ah, good to have some context
  330. # [14:21] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: i tried growing a beard once but it doesn't work. i can't grow a full beard. which i guess is nice from the point of view of easier shaving
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  335. # [14:29] <Ms2ger> Oh, wow
  336. # [14:29] <Ms2ger> Servo supports <directory> rather than <dir>
  337. # [14:30] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: in HTML? why?
  338. # [14:30] <Ms2ger> Clearly HTMLDirectoryElement is the interface for <directory>
  339. # [14:30] <zcorpan> hmm, why does svg say that <title> can be shown in a tooltip?
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  343. # [14:34] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: does it also support <anchor>, <media>, <quote>, <tablecaption>, <tablecol>, <mod>, <dlist>, <heading>, <image> (not as macro), <olist>, <paragraph>, <tablesection>, <tableheadercell>, <tablerow>, <ulist>?
  344. # [14:34] <Ms2ger> Not afaict :)
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  350. # [14:39] <annevk> zcorpan: because in SVG <title> was the way to do tooltips
  351. # [14:39] <annevk> zcorpan: because they bought into the thing that you want markup in your tooltips
  352. # [14:40] <annevk> zcorpan: without really defining the rendering context and such for that, mind you
  353. # [14:41] <zcorpan> and <title> also seems to serve the purpose of being the title of the image, which doens't seem suitable for a tooltip (you don't show HTML's <title> as a tooltip)
  354. # [14:42] <zcorpan> and dirk says <title> also serves the purpose of being the alternative text of the image
  355. # [14:42] <annevk> SVG: broken and rarely used...
  356. # [14:42] <zcorpan> while chrisl says the text in <text>s are sufficient for text alternative
  357. # [14:43] <annevk> Although reportedly we want to use it more in Firefox OS to deal with screen differences and such. So mostly for its vector aspects.
  358. # [14:43] <annevk> zcorpan: you're in a meeting?
  359. # [14:44] <zcorpan> no
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  361. # [14:44] <wilhelm> annevk: With IE8 gone real soon now, SVG usage will increase significantly. I use it on all my current projects. It may be shit, but it's still The Way to get vectors on the Web.
  362. # [14:45] <annevk> wilhelm: yeah, it's too bad it has all that other useless baggage.
  363. # [14:45] <zcorpan> the context here was tab announcing bikeshed's railroad thing on w3c-css-wg
  364. # [14:46] <zcorpan> i noticed *now* that i was talking about stuff on a non-public list
  365. # [14:47] <annevk> zcorpan: seems like he's actually saying <svg><circle/> LOL I'M TEXT </svg> is the way to do it
  366. # [14:47] <SimonSapin> Context is Bert complaining about http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-syntax/#token-diagrams not showing up in a browser that does not support SVG
  367. # [14:48] <wilhelm> annevk: I don't disagree with that. <line>, <g> and <circle> ought to be enough for anyone. Drop the rest. (c;
  368. # [14:48] <zcorpan> annevk: but that's not valid svg, right? so that's hardly how it's designed
  369. # [14:48] <annevk> zcorpan: and yet he claims...
  370. # [14:49] <annevk> Which goes to show that nobody really uses SVG or this would have been figured out. But one day...
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  372. # [14:49] <zcorpan> in other news, <!DOCTYPE html><svg><title>foo</title></svg> sets document.title in blink
  373. # [14:49] <marcosc> I made my first ever SVG image yesterday :)
  374. # [14:50] <zcorpan> marcosc: congrats! i remember making my first SVG image, i think i made the Atom logo back in 2006 or so :-)
  375. # [14:51] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/sandbox/svg/atom
  376. # [14:51] <marcosc> fancy!
  377. # [14:52] <annevk> That reminds me, need to get "whatwggreen" to mean "#3c790a"
  378. # [14:52] <marcosc> heheheh, I just tried to post my SVG image to twitter and it told me SVG is not an image!!!
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  380. # [14:53] <Ms2ger> wilhelm, how about <rect>?
  381. # [14:53] <SimonSapin> annevk: Feel free to send a pull request :) https://github.com/mozilla-servo/rust-cssparser/blob/master/make_color_data.py
  382. # [14:54] <wilhelm> Ms2ger: I haven't actually needed that one yet. But yes, the basic shapes should stay.
  383. # [14:55] <zcorpan> annevk: what happened with about:unicorn?
  384. # [14:55] <Ms2ger> I have... A long time ago I worked on flags a bit on wikipedia
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  388. # [15:02] <annevk> zcorpan: still around somewhere
  389. # [15:03] <odinho> zcorpan: Shouldn't that clearly be <unorderedlist>?
  390. # [15:04] <annevk> zcorpan: http://html5.org/temp/unicorn.svg
  391. # [15:04] <zcorpan> odinho: no the interface is HTMLUListElement
  392. # [15:04] <annevk> zcorpan: could even support about:unicorn?whatwggreen
  393. # [15:05] <annevk> although that'd require some escaping I suppose
  394. # [15:05] <odinho> zcorpan: Ah, that was the connection. :)
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  404. # [15:33] <MikeSmith> finally found a photo of zcorpan when he had his beard http://goo.gl/CJsQRW
  405. # [15:34] <zcorpan> that looks more like you MikeSmith
  406. # [15:34] <wilhelm> Ho, Ho?
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  470. # [17:32] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  494. # [18:16] <Hixie> annevk: i thought <desc> was for alternative text in svg...
  495. # [18:16] <annevk> Hixie: rings true, but SVG WG members all say something else
  496. # [18:19] <Hixie> what does the spec say?
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  500. # [18:25] <annevk> no idea, don't really care
  501. # [18:26] <Ms2ger> "This involved fixing a flaky test, which was fun."
  502. # [18:26] * Ms2ger wonders if foolip is interested in fixing Mozilla's flaky tests
  503. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> s/all say something else/Dirk says something else/
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  505. # [18:30] <Hixie> i'm amused as to how tab and anne disagree about when "everyone" says something. this isn't the first time. :-P
  506. # [18:45] <Ms2ger> "My purpose was to lament..."
  507. # [18:45] <Ms2ger> Anyone have a guess who starts their emails like that?
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  512. # [18:48] <Hixie> heh. i complained to dreamhost about low disk space on the host disk for whatwg.org. they responded basically "oops, we'll fix that" and then pasted some boilerplate at the end that said "if it's still going on in 2 days let us know. please include steps to reproduce."
  513. # [18:48] <Hixie> steps to reproduce being out of disk space? :-o
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  516. # [18:50] <annevk> Ms2ger: if he only put that effort into doing something about it rather than complaining about my priorities over several emails
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  533. # [19:23] <Hixie> TabAtkins: any update on what I should reference re "scoping element" ?
  534. # [19:24] <Hixie> TabAtkins: right now i reference "CSS Scoped Style Sheets, T. Atkins. Your Imagination."
  535. # [19:28] <Hixie> TabAtkins: would http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-cascade/#scoping-element be more helpful?
  536. # [19:28] <Hixie> or accurate?
  537. # [19:28] <Hixie> long term?
  538. # [19:28] <TabAtkins> Will answer you in a bit - debugging something
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  541. # [19:31] <annevk> So I need a better name than queryParams by tomorrow. Just go with searchParams and live with query being a spec concept and not exposed in APIs for this?
  542. # [19:31] <annevk> Anyway, movie
  543. # [19:38] <Ms2ger> Wasn't the string called search?
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  545. # [19:38] <Ms2ger> Then that's probably good to match, even if it's a poor name
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  576. # [20:22] <krit> MikeSmith:
  577. # [20:22] <krit> MikeSmith: ping
  578. # [20:26] <krit> Hixie: annevk: <desc> is better if you want to describe the purpose of the SVG document indeed.
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  662. # [22:20] <smaug____> huh, I'm being told http://wiki.ecmascript.org/doku.php?id=strawman:weak_references might actually happen
  663. # [22:20] <smaug____> tc39 is on crack
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  667. # [22:27] <jamesr__> who doesn't like observing gc behavior?
  668. # [22:28] <TabAtkins> From what I understand, there are some useful things that simply can't be done without weakrefs, unless you like leaking. :/
  669. # [22:29] <Hixie> that was my argument for PortCollection, but people aren't liking that either :-)
  670. # [22:30] <smaug____> exposing gc behavior forces all the implementations to use same gc behavior, effectively
  671. # [22:30] <smaug____> or leads to really odd bugs
  672. # [22:30] <smaug____> that weakref proposal especially
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  674. # [22:30] <smaug____> PortCollection might not be as bad
  675. # [22:33] <fantasai> Hixie: Probably want to hook into both http://www.w3.org/TR/selectors4/#scoping-element and http://www.w3.org/TR/css-cascade-3/#scoping-element
  676. # [22:33] * Quits: Karate (~Karate@190.189.230.229) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  677. # [22:34] <Hixie> fantasai: wait, the term is defined in two places?
  678. # [22:35] <Hixie> smaug____: yeah (PortCollection's leak of GC behaviour is a real problem, i just don't know how to do anything to avoid it)
  679. # [22:35] <fantasai> Hixie: one's for scoping selectors, the other for scoping the cascade
  680. # [22:35] <fantasai> Hixie: You can do one without doing the other
  681. # [22:35] <fantasai> Hixie: I'm not 100% convinced the wording is awesome in that respect, but you do need to reference both specs' scoping sections
  682. # [22:36] <Hixie> isn't there some way i can just say "this is a style sheet whose scoping element is this element" and then have CSS take care of the rest? I don't want to keep having to have deep links into CSS, that's a maintenance nightmare
  683. # [22:37] <fantasai> Yeah, that should work. But you should still point at both specs
  684. # [22:37] <fantasai> For selectors, you also have to say what kind of scoping you're doing
  685. # [22:38] <fantasai> There will at some point probably exist a CSS spec that defines scoped styles as an overall concept
  686. # [22:38] <fantasai> but atm we only have the Selectors and Cascade pieces defined
  687. # [22:38] <fantasai> thus HTML has to tie them together :/
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  689. # [22:39] * fantasai putters in a text editor a moment
  690. # [22:39] <Hixie> well right now what i do is point to a fictional spec and let that tie them together
  691. # [22:39] <Hixie> which sounds like it might still be the right solution
  692. # [22:40] <fantasai> Maybe something like
  693. # [22:40] <fantasai> This is a style sheet whose selectors are scope-contained [SELCTORS4]
  694. # [22:40] <fantasai> and whose declarations are scoped in the cascade [CASCADE3] with
  695. # [22:40] <fantasai> the scoping element given as [rule to find scoping element].
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  697. # [22:40] <fantasai> s/style sheet/CSS style sheet/
  698. # [22:41] <Hixie> avoiding doing that is the whole point here
  699. # [22:41] <Ms2ger> annevk-cloud, wdyt about making pre-insert step 6 a switch?
  700. # [22:42] <fantasai> Hixie: I don't think pointing at a fictional spec is helping implementers any
  701. # [22:42] <fantasai> Hixie: And this is still better than defining the mechanics of the CSS cascade and selection inline in the HTML spec
  702. # [22:43] <Hixie> there should just be one spec to point to that does all this
  703. # [22:43] <Hixie> i'm not setting myself up for wackamole, that just wastes my time and is no help to implementors either
  704. # [22:43] <fantasai> I'm not arguing with that statement
  705. # [22:43] <fantasai> but the fact is, such a spec does not yet exist
  706. # [22:44] <fantasai> and it's not anywhere on my immediate to-do list, either
  707. # [22:44] <fantasai> so this is the best I can do for you atm
  708. # [22:45] <Hixie> i think tab said it was on his todo list, which is why it's under his name in the refs right now :-)
  709. # [22:45] <fantasai> Sure, and helping him with it is on my todo list as well :)
  710. # [22:46] <fantasai> but it's so far down, that I wouldn't advise anyone to wait for it :)
  711. # [22:47] <fantasai> It'll happen someday, but for now, I think it's best to just point at Selectors 4 and Cascade 3
  712. # [22:47] <fantasai> at least that way there *is* a definition
  713. # [22:48] <fantasai> and it's not that much more complicated than referencing a theoretical Scoped Styles spec
  714. # [22:48] <fantasai> Either way you still have to pick what kind of selectors you want :)
  715. # [22:48] <Hixie> i plan on making precisely one change in this area, ever, in the future, and that should be an update to the references
  716. # [22:50] <fantasai> Suit yourself
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  731. # [23:13] <smaug____> annevk-cloud: ping
  732. # [23:13] <smaug____> annevk-cloud: why getElementById() looks for descendants only
  733. # [23:14] <smaug____> I'd assume var d = document.createElement("div"); div.id = "foo"; div.getElementById("foo") == div;
  734. # [23:15] <Ms2ger> What does querySelector do?
  735. # [23:18] <smaug____> looks like it is buggy too
  736. # [23:21] <TabAtkins> Hixie: What's the reference you *want* to make? I'll put it in my issues list and make sure I hit it properly when I write that spec.
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  739. # [23:22] <Hixie> last time we chatted about that, we ended up on the following text and reference:
  740. # [23:22] <Hixie> A style sheet declared by a style element that has a scoped attribute and has a parent node that is an element is scoped, with the scoping element being the style element's parent element. [CSSSCOPED]
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  742. # [23:22] <Hixie> [CSSSCOPED] CSS Scoped Style Sheets, T. Atkins. Your Imagination.
  743. # [23:22] <Hixie> though that seems to be grammatically bogus
  744. # [23:23] <Hixie> oh, no, i misread it
  745. # [23:23] <Hixie> anyway, that seems like sufficient text on the HTML spec's side, right? just needs the hooks on the CSS side, either in "CSS Scoped Style Sheets" or somewhere else
  746. # [23:24] <Hixie> ("Your Imagination" is the publisher, as in "W3C" or "IETF")
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  749. # [23:25] <Hixie> MikeSmith: you around?
  750. # [23:27] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that's sufficient. kk
  751. # [23:28] <Hixie> cool
  752. # [23:28] <Hixie> there's some other prose around there that's looking for a home in the css world, fwiw
  753. # [23:29] <TabAtkins> https://github.com/tabatkins/specs/issues/20
  754. # [23:29] <TabAtkins> Feel free to file issues on me if you'd like me to work on them later.
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  759. # [23:32] <Hixie> TabAtkins: filed a couple of them
  760. # [23:32] <Hixie> TabAtkins: (i think there's only two such things right now)
  761. # [23:32] <Hixie> TabAtkins: (do you prefer github's issue system to bugzilla?)
  762. # [23:32] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  763. # [23:32] <TabAtkins> Largely because of Markdown.
  764. # [23:32] <Hixie> fascinating
  765. # [23:32] <Hixie> ah
  766. # [23:33] <Hixie> i was gonna ask
  767. # [23:33] <TabAtkins> but also, you can reply directly, and also you can easily attach commits to them.
  768. # [23:33] <TabAtkins> reply directly from email*
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  770. # [23:34] <Hixie> attaching commits to bugzilla is something i have a script for (though i'm in the process of debugging it right now). interesting that you like markdown though. i've always found it annoying when my text gets reinterpreted, especially in specs and programming where random syntax already has meaning. :-)
  771. # [23:35] <TabAtkins> Oh man, Markdown is the *best*. My blog is written in it. I write emails in it.
  772. # [23:35] <TabAtkins> And you have fenced code blocks for when you need syntax.
  773. # [23:35] * Ms2ger will refrain from commenting :)
  774. # [23:35] <TabAtkins> Or inline code formatting, too.
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  776. # [23:35] <Hixie> to each his own i guess :-)
  777. # [23:36] <TabAtkins> It's kiddie HTML, basically, that looks like writing a plain-text email. It works very well.
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  779. # [23:38] <Hixie> i really don't understand why bugzilla is refusing my token
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  800. # Session Close: Fri Nov 01 00:00:00 2013

The end :)