/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-11-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Nov 05 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  25. # [00:36] <Hixie> anyone have a link to that htmlwg post where the chairs said we didn't have to test everything because some things had "proven interoperability"?
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  27. # [00:37] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Sep/0243.html looks to be it
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  31. # [00:44] <jgraham> Hixie: FWIW I don't think anyone intends to not test everything
  32. # [00:45] <jgraham> It just means that they won't require testing everything for Process reasons
  33. # [00:45] <jgraham> But that's fine, testing for Process doesn't really work anyway
  34. # [00:47] <jgraham> Actually I take that back
  35. # [00:47] <jgraham> testing for Process really doesn't work
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  37. # [00:48] <jgraham> It just leads to confusion like people asking if it's OK to submit tests for the interaction between different features
  38. # [00:48] <jgraham> Or people submitting tests carefully chosen to demonstrate interop, rather than to find bugs
  39. # [00:49] <jgraham> The only real good thing about having testing be part of the Process is that it encourages some people who care about Process to write tests
  40. # [00:49] <jgraham> However it doesn't guarantee the quality of those tests, for the reasons already stated
  41. # [00:50] <Hixie> yeah, it was in the context of process reasons that i was asking
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  44. # [00:52] <jgraham> Oh, OK, if you are discussing Process then this clearly violates the intent of the Process. But also the Process shoudl change.
  45. # [00:52] <Hixie> or, you know, not exist
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  47. # [00:53] <Hixie> i was discussing values of the whatwg and w3c with someone. these are what i came up with, but i'm worried they're biased -- anyone got a less subjective list?:
  48. # [00:53] <Hixie> WHATWG values:
  49. # [00:53] <Hixie> - technical correctness above all
  50. # [00:53] <Hixie> - openness and freedom
  51. # [00:53] <Hixie> - responding to all feedback
  52. # [00:53] <Hixie> - meritocracy
  53. # [00:53] <Hixie> W3C values:
  54. # [00:53] <Hixie> - consensus above all
  55. # [00:53] <Hixie> - making the AC happy
  56. # [00:53] <Hixie> - following processes
  57. # [00:53] <Hixie> - publishing "stable references"
  58. # [00:55] <Hixie> (i mean, actual values as demonstrated by actions, not claimed values. also, let me know if you see any contradictions of the whatwg values.)
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  63. # [00:58] <astearns> Hixie: I think you missed one. WHATWG values: - making fun of W3C process
  64. # [00:59] <Hixie> i actually later in the discussion listed some values that neither group has, and one i had in that list was "politeness"
  65. # [00:59] <Hixie> which i think is much the same as what you said :-)
  66. # [00:59] <jgraham> I don't know if it's technically a value, but WHATWG tends to value browser vendors above other entities (discounting "authors" and "end users") whereas the W3C has a different set of constituents including media companies, large corps and whoever else will pay the membership fees
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  68. # [01:00] <Hixie> i think that falls into "making the AC happy", but yeah, interesting way of looking at it
  69. # [01:01] <jgraham> Sure, if you know who the AC are and the fact that the W3C actively tries to recruit new Members irrespective of whether they have interests aligned with the Open Web
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  72. # [01:01] <astearns> I think WHATWG valuing meritocracy might be a subjective call. I've seen opinions I value getting short shrift in discussions here
  73. # [01:02] <Hixie> i meant that more along the lines of you get responsibility if you do the work
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  75. # [01:03] <Hixie> as in, the person who works on the wiki gets to decide when the wiki software is updated
  76. # [01:03] <Hixie> or the person who writes the spec, gets to decide what the spec says
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  81. # [01:03] <astearns> that's more agency than meritocracy, imo
  82. # [01:04] <Hixie> astearns: (though if you do see opinions get ignored, please do let me know privately, so i can make sure they are getting serious consideration)
  83. # [01:04] <Hixie> hmm, agency might be a better word, true
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  88. # [01:05] <Hixie> (another value that i put in the "we don't have it" list is diversity, unfortunately)
  89. # [01:06] <jgraham> along what axis?
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  91. # [01:08] <Hixie> almost any
  92. # [01:08] <Hixie> participant age, race, sex, socioeconomic background, etc.
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  95. # [01:09] <Hixie> i haven't actually checked, but my impression is that both the w3c and the whatwg are mostly just white men.
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  97. # [01:11] <jgraham> I guess it depends if you are comparing to society as a whole, or just the pool of people who have the right skills to be participating
  98. # [01:11] <Hixie> even if we just compare to the pool, we should have way more women
  99. # [01:11] <jgraham> That sounds quite plausible
  100. # [01:11] <Hixie> (and would, if we really had that was a core value)
  101. # [01:12] <Hixie> s/was a/as a/
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  103. # [01:14] <jgraham> It isn't immediately clear to me what I would do to encourage more women to participate at WHATWG that could be done within the constraints of the structure
  104. # [01:15] <Hixie> if it was a core value, we'd change our structure accordingly
  105. # [01:16] <jgraham> that's easy to say, but I still don't have a concrete idea of what you would actually change. The kind of structure I had in mind was things like "no budget"
  106. # [01:16] <jgraham> Which isn't easy to change
  107. # [01:16] <Hixie> it's not easy to change while doing what we're doing, certainly
  108. # [01:16] <Hixie> because we're all busy
  109. # [01:17] <Hixie> but if i e.g. cared less about writing good specs, i could spend more time raising money instead of writing specs
  110. # [01:17] <Hixie> or could work with women's tech conferences
  111. # [01:17] <Hixie> there's stuff we could do
  112. # [01:18] <Hixie> it not being a core value doesn't mean we think it's not important
  113. # [01:18] <Hixie> we might even value diversity more in theory than the things i listed above
  114. # [01:18] <jgraham> Sure, so sending people to tech conferences to talk about how to get involved with standards work seems like an actual concrete thing
  115. # [01:18] <Hixie> but in practice, our actions say that we don't truly value it more than the things above
  116. # [01:19] <Hixie> (and maybe we should change that, i hadn't really gotten to that part of the thought :-) )
  117. # [01:19] <jgraham> But even if that happened, it would be some individual or company doing it rather than WHATWG, really
  118. # [01:19] <Hixie> isn't everything?
  119. # [01:19] <jgraham> It depends?
  120. # [01:19] <Hixie> i mean, "the whatwg" isn't editing the URL spec, Anne is
  121. # [01:19] <jgraham> Yeah, I suppose that's fair
  122. # [01:21] <jgraham> I guess Anne might claim that our actions demonstrate that we don't care that much about involving developers of any background, given that WHATWG/browser people rarely go to tech conferences in general
  123. # [01:21] <Hixie> yeah, we really should do more on that front
  124. # [01:21] <Hixie> i'm just so swamped with bugs and feedback i can't handle more
  125. # [01:21] <Hixie> which is why i haven't done anything like that
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  128. # [01:22] <Hixie> but it does mean the feedback i have is biased towards the groups that have found us
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  130. # [01:23] <Hixie> afk
  131. # [01:24] <jgraham> I think there is merit in the idea that TPAC has jumped the shark and what we should do instead is have a mixed browser developer / web developer conference aimed at discussing requirements for the immediate future of the web platform
  132. # [01:24] <jgraham> But that seems kind of non-trivial to organise
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  252. # [04:31] <jpwhiting> MikeSmith: around?
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  259. # [05:12] <MikeSmith> jpwhiting: here now
  260. # [05:12] <MikeSmith> for a short time
  261. # [05:13] <jpwhiting> MikeSmith: hey there, I've been tasked with adding some html elements to our validator schema for some new html5 features
  262. # [05:14] <jpwhiting> a couple of which are audotracklist and videotracklist
  263. # [05:14] <jpwhiting> from here: http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/CR-html5-20121217/embedded-content-0.html#audiotracklist-and-videotracklist-objects
  264. # [05:15] <jpwhiting> I've removed/commented out stuff from the schema previously, but haven't added new elements/attributes to existing ones before, is it pretty straightforward to add these say to syntax/relaxng/media.rnc or something?
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  268. # [05:19] <MikeSmith> yeah
  269. # [05:20] <MikeSmith> jpwhiting: just look at similar cases in the existing schema
  270. # [05:21] <MikeSmith> and look through the "hg log -p" output from previous changesets that added new elements
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  282. # [06:44] <Hixie> jpwhiting: you really don't want to be using that old a document
  283. # [06:45] <Hixie> jpwhiting: http://whatwg.org/html is much more up to date
  284. # [06:45] <Hixie> jpwhiting: (also, audotracklist and videotracklist aren't elements)
  285. # [06:45] <jpwhiting> Hixie: yeah, I'm thinking these attributes aren't used in html5 tags and attributes anyway, but only in javascript functions
  286. # [06:45] <jpwhiting> yep
  287. # [06:46] <Hixie> jgraham: a joint one would involve convincing authors to go to our conference. i think we're better off going to existing conferences.
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  353. # [10:03] <jgraham> Hixie: that depends what the goal is I think. If it's mainly an "outreach" thing then of course reusing an existing conference is rather easier. If the goal is to have all the browser people that currently only go to events like, say, TPAC or BlinkOn, as well as the kind of authors who could hold their own in a standards discussion, it isn't really clear that there is an existing conference that would work
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  366. # [10:18] <annevk-cloud> We should make it happen
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  369. # [10:21] <darobin> oh dear me, someone put anne in the cloud
  370. # [10:21] <jgraham> Yes, but just saying it works well for Captain Picard, but life is not yet like Star Trek.
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  375. # [10:26] * darobin_ really likes the idea of that browser/dev conference
  376. # [10:26] <darobin_> conferences, however, are hard to make happen
  377. # [10:27] * darobin_ is now known as darobin
  378. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> co-locate it at CCC every year
  379. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> call it "WC3"
  380. # [10:28] <darobin> lol
  381. # [10:29] <darobin> at ParisWeb this year I ran a Web Standards Complaints Bureau session where developers got to, well, complain about web standards (and ask questions)
  382. # [10:29] <darobin> I thought it went really well, I'd encourage anyone here to do the same
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  385. # [10:33] <MikeSmith> Alex used to do a pretty good job of that single-handedly
  386. # [10:33] <MikeSmith> the complaining, I mean
  387. # [10:34] <MikeSmith> either him or Fake Alex
  388. # [10:34] <MikeSmith> I can't tell them apart sometimes
  389. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> I think back then in had misinterpreted the purpose of the Web Standards Complaints Bureau
  390. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> he thought the purpose was to generate the complaints, not to receive them
  391. # [10:36] <darobin> heh
  392. # [10:36] <MikeSmith> anyway I miss that
  393. # [10:36] <MikeSmith> he complained more back then, but always articulately
  394. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: btw I pushed the validator and parser error-reported changes we landed yesterday
  395. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> pushed to http://validator.w3.org/nu/
  396. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> *error-reporting
  397. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> for legacy doctypes
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  399. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> so if/when you have time to check and you find something funky/regressed for doctype reporting, lemme know
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  406. # [10:56] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: i wonder what it should do for e.g. <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN">
  407. # [11:03] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: right now I think that will generate a warning saynging that the system id is not one prescribed by the XHTML1 spec
  408. # [11:03] <zcorpan> yeah
  409. # [11:03] <MikeSmith> which isn't very useful
  410. # [11:03] <MikeSmith> as we discussed yesterday
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  412. # [11:04] <zcorpan> why isn't it useful?
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  414. # [11:06] <Ms2ger> Because it refers to the XHTML1 spec? :)
  415. # [11:08] <zcorpan> the above doctype isn't one that has ever been allowed, it's not well-formed xml (not that that is checked, but anyway), it's not an "obsolete but permitted doctype"... so maybe it should give an error?
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  421. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: yeah, I think so
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  423. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> the handling for that is in the parser code, so I'll need to get another patch to Henri
  424. # [11:24] <zcorpan> <http://www.w3.org/mid/1383638007.2478.468.camel@slave.barefootcomputing.com>
  425. # [11:24] <zcorpan> select attributes? why not select entities?
  426. # [11:25] <zcorpan> hey, i want to select an entity declaration in the internal subset
  427. # [11:25] <zcorpan> or possibly external subset
  428. # [11:26] <zcorpan> or a comment in the declaration
  429. # [11:26] <zcorpan> yeah, that's it. a comment in an entity declaration in the external subset. syntax for that, anyone?
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  431. # [11:30] <Ms2ger> @#!èDECL
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  439. # [12:01] <hsivonen> suppose I'm not at Google and I want to find a couple of dozen most popular but encoding-unlabeled sites under a given TLD. What should I do?
  440. # [12:01] <hsivonen> e.g. get a list of sites under .az, remove sites that have encoding labels, sort by popularity, print the first 20 or so
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  443. # [12:09] <annevk> zcorpan: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=850684
  444. # [12:10] <annevk> zcorpan: do you still use @hotmail.com for Bugzilla?
  445. # [12:10] <zcorpan> annevk: no
  446. # [12:11] <zcorpan> gmail
  447. # [12:12] <annevk> seems both are cc'd
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  449. # [12:19] <zcorpan> i guess i need to test ie
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  453. # [12:24] <zcorpan> i don't see any difference between blink and gecko for the test case in https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=81290 which was stated as being the reason for the absolute positioned check
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  455. # [12:29] <jgraham> hsivonen: "suppose" you're not at Google? :)
  456. # [12:30] <jgraham> It's not really clear who else has the popularity data, it's true
  457. # [12:33] <jgraham> You could start with the Alexa data and then manually go through all the .az sites looking for ones without encoding labels
  458. # [12:33] <jgraham> It isn't clear if there is enough data there to give you 20 sites or not
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  461. # [12:36] <hsivonen> jgraham: my point about Google was that "Google can get this data" is not a sufficient answer if they don't
  462. # [12:37] <hsivonen> jgraham: does Alexa publish data beyond the global top sites?
  463. # [12:37] <hsivonen> jgraham: that is, do they have data that covers .az
  464. # [12:37] <hsivonen> which probably doesn't have its top sites among the global top sites
  465. # [12:38] <jgraham> hsivonen: they seem to have per-country data
  466. # [12:38] <hsivonen> hmm. I guess I could look at http://www.alexa.com/topsites/countries/AZ and pay attention only to the .az sites there
  467. # [12:38] <jgraham> Right, that was what I was thinking
  468. # [12:39] <darobin> that said, the top sites for .az are unsurprisingly similar to the global top sites :)
  469. # [12:39] <wilhelm_> And pretty similar to other CIS states.
  470. # [12:40] <wilhelm_> The .no listing seems somewhat accurate, albeit fuzzy.
  471. # [12:41] <hsivonen> It still amazes me that people agree to run whatever software it is that Alexa uses to collect these stats
  472. # [12:41] <hsivonen> what's in it for the users?
  473. # [12:42] <wilhelm_> A pretty toolbar!
  474. # [12:43] * Ms2ger used it long ago
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  477. # [12:44] <wilhelm_> I'm running a top25 .no site these days. The details Alexa has on it are fuzzy at best. (c:
  478. # [12:45] <darobin> well, they have to do a lot of extrapolation
  479. # [12:45] <hsivonen> the top sites are too clueful about using and declaring UTF-8. this makes no sense as manual research. scripts needed.
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  481. # [12:47] <annevk> I'll just leave this here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2013Nov/0000.html
  482. # [12:47] <hsivonen> some day, we'll realize that the non-CJK parts of the world are so fed up with their fallback encodings that they just use and declare UTF-8
  483. # [12:48] <darobin> hsivonen: maybe you could ping AZNIC for a list of existing .az sites
  484. # [12:54] <hsivonen> darobin: doesn't scale :-(
  485. # [12:54] <darobin> hsivonen: oh, for the whole world, sure
  486. # [12:54] <darobin> I thought you were looking into a specifically .az problem
  487. # [12:55] <hsivonen> darobin: well, .az is particularly non-obvious, but it wouldn't hurt to have real data about TLDs that seem obvious
  488. # [12:55] <darobin> that said, a tool to get a random sample from DNS would be nice
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  492. # [13:06] <annevk> The idea would be to move away from locale-dependent encoding fallbacks and instead have TLD-dependent encoding fallbacks.
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  495. # [13:24] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i think foolip collected TLD-specific data for Encoding research, and maybe still has the script(s)
  496. # [13:25] <zcorpan> iirc it didn't use alexa top sites but used bing's search api or some such
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  499. # [13:35] <zcorpan> hsivonen: but if you only want a handful, webdevdata might be enough
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  509. # [14:05] <hsivonen> zcorpan: does webdevdata have good coverages of various TLDs? how is webdevdata gathered?
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  513. # [14:10] <zcorpan> hsivonen: it seems webdevdataset is too small. i find 1 az site without charset, but it has since updated to declare utf-8
  514. # [14:11] <zcorpan> hsivonen: 54 az sites don't specify it in Content-Type
  515. # [14:12] <zcorpan> hsivonen: https://github.com/Webdevdata/fetcher/blob/master/README.md
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  517. # [14:17] <hsivonen> http://domaintyper.com/top-websites/most-popular-websites-with-az-domain/page/1 claims to have domains sorted by popularity
  518. # [14:20] <zcorpan> hsivonen: you could run webdevdata fetcher on that list
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  520. # [14:22] <jgraham> hsivonen: Alternatively maybe google with site:.az is good enough?
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  522. # [14:22] <zcorpan> or modify the fetcher to do the relevant search while fetching if you don't want to store the raw data
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  527. # [14:26] <hsivonen> jgraham: that seems like a reasonable way to get a list of sites, yeah. I expect Google to limit programmatic scaping of the list, though.
  528. # [14:26] <zcorpan> that's where bing's search api comes in
  529. # [14:27] <zcorpan> ask philipj@ :-)
  530. # [14:27] <jgraham> Right, bing might be a better choice if it allows you to download the data
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  568. # [15:39] <gsnedders> annevk: I think the only way we're going to be able to do this well is with a lot of data, via CommonCrawl or whatever.
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  571. # [15:46] <hsivonen> annevk: fun http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/gfx/thebes/gfxFontUtils.cpp#1135
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  574. # [15:48] <annevk> hsivonen: is that actually still relevant?
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  576. # [15:48] <annevk> hsivonen: because that'd be sad
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  578. # [15:48] <hsivonen> annevk: I don't know
  579. # [15:48] <annevk> hsivonen: :/
  580. # [15:49] <SteveF> zcorpan: added back links to webdevdata
  581. # [15:49] <zcorpan> SteveF: thanks!
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  599. # [16:10] <annevk> So maybe Shadow DOM is the reason why HTML and DOM have to merge?
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  601. # [16:24] <annevk> Man, HSTS is long http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6797 ...
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  659. # [17:40] <SimonSapin> hsivonen: does "mac" here mean pre-OS X ?
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  665. # [17:58] <Hixie> jgraham: ah, yeah, good point. personally i assumed it was "just" an outreach thing, because I don't think we should be doing actual spec work in person.
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  667. # [17:59] <GPHemsley> why are <ins> and <del> asymmetric in their allowance of palpable content?
  668. # [17:59] * Quits: Smylers (~smylers@81.143.60.194) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  669. # [17:59] <Hixie> GPHemsley: doesn't make sense to delete nothing
  670. # [17:59] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Could you give an example?
  671. # [17:59] * Joins: yoav (~yoav@91.255.21.178)
  672. # [18:00] * GPHemsley often works better with examples
  673. # [18:00] <Hixie> well, let me check the spec text first to make sure i'm not on crack
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  676. # [18:02] <GPHemsley> heh
  677. # [18:02] <GPHemsley> that's always a good idea
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  679. # [18:05] <Hixie> ah, it's the reverse of what i said, heh
  680. # [18:05] <Hixie> it's not that <del> doesn't allow palpable
  681. # [18:06] <Hixie> it's that <del> isn't palpable itself
  682. # [18:06] <Hixie> this is because <p><del>x</del></p> is the equivalent of <p></p>, not <p>x</p>, in terms of whether there's anything there
  683. # [18:06] <Hixie> if you delete everything from a paragraph, you should probably delete the paragraph, not the contents
  684. # [18:07] <Hixie> afk, meeting.
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  688. # [18:14] <GPHemsley> ah, right; read it wrong
  689. # [18:14] <GPHemsley> thansk
  690. # [18:14] <GPHemsley> thanks, even
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  693. # [18:20] <jgraham> Hixie: So I think there is merit in having F2F interaction (otherwise why have conferences at all; one could simply read the same information on a web page). Of course I wouldn't expect it to work like CSS or TC39 where actual decisons are made in person. But it would be an oppertunity for people with simiilar interests to get around a whiteboard and hash out ideas (this already happens of course, but tends to be confined to people in the same organi
  694. # [18:20] <Domenic_> I think a big benefit would be just humanizing the spec process, not even necessarily in getting any concrete work or ideas generated.
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  697. # [18:21] <jgraham> Presumably one would make it barcamp style and have lots of parallel sessions so that the number of people at each was conducive to actual interaction rather than the kind of thing that happens at TPAC where you spend most of the time passing the microphone around a room of 50+ people, 45 of whom have nothing to say
  698. # [18:21] <jgraham> And of course some sessions could be "board games" or similar
  699. # [18:21] <jgraham> ("visit the zoo" was annevk's suggestion)
  700. # [18:22] <jgraham> (kind of hard to get people to attend if that's *all* you do though)
  701. # [18:22] <annevk> I stole that idea from Hixie, mind
  702. # [18:22] <annevk> Pretty sure it was a CC0 idea :p
  703. # [18:22] <jgraham> (even orgs that value that kind of teambuilding activity might be loathe to send people to something that is p
  704. # [18:23] <jgraham> ure teambuilding with people from competitors)
  705. # [18:23] <annevk> We'll have to find out
  706. # [18:23] <Ms2ger> Well, you don't tell your manager about the board game sessions ;)
  707. # [18:24] <annevk> Best part of MozSummit was hanging in the lounge discussing some ES6 stuff
  708. # [18:24] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  709. # [18:25] <Domenic_> Yeah hallway track ++
  710. # [18:25] <jgraham> It seems like an easier sell all round if there is explict technical content, rather than just people chatting
  711. # [18:25] <Domenic_> (also true)
  712. # [18:25] <jgraham> annevk: Sure, but the format was explicitly desinged to make that possible
  713. # [18:25] <darobin_> "humanising the spec process", what next? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_with_a_human_face ?
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  715. # [18:25] <annevk> jgraham: my pitch is 1 day technical and 1 day social
  716. # [18:26] <Domenic_> I think there'd need to be some introduction though before all this socializing. E.g. most people don't even know the names of spec people or what they are interested in talking about.
  717. # [18:26] <Ms2ger> darobin_, hmm, I like spring
  718. # [18:26] <Domenic_> annevk: JSConf US this year was 1 day technical, 1 day structured activities, 1 day technical.
  719. # [18:26] <darobin_> Domenic_: well, the TestTWF format isn't so bad for that
  720. # [18:26] <Ms2ger> darobin_, dunno about Prague, though
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  722. # [18:26] <darobin_> there's a very short set of intro sessions to make sure everyone knows the basics
  723. # [18:27] <darobin_> then it's all hacking
  724. # [18:27] <jgraham> annevk: I think I prefer the 1:1:1 approach Domenic_ described
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  726. # [18:28] <annevk> Seems fine, host it at Google or Microsoft in the Bay Area...
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  729. # [18:29] <Ms2ger> As long as you don't want peterv to attend ;)
  730. # [18:29] <annevk> Fly some people in, have some fun, get an idea of what needs to be done to improve things after
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  732. # [18:29] <annevk> Ms2ger: :/
  733. # [18:30] <jgraham> (Mozilla SFO isn't big enough? I only ask because if you are serious about this it might be one way to make things easier)
  734. # [18:30] <jgraham> Ms2ger: At least he didn't say "China"
  735. # [18:30] <Ms2ger> Aaaaah
  736. # [18:30] <annevk> jgraham: dunno, if we get 200 people and want to do break outs that's not going to work
  737. # [18:31] <annevk> (basing the number on EdgeConf)
  738. # [18:31] <jgraham> Right, it depends if you want 50 people or 200 people
  739. # [18:31] <jgraham> (50 isn't that many, but it could be worthwhile to do something smaller to begin with and scale up if the idea basically works)
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  741. # [18:32] <Ms2ger> Do it in the London office, break out to the Google office
  742. # [18:33] <jgraham> "your breakout session is one tube ride away"
  743. # [18:33] <annevk> With 50 it seems hard to get the right people in without excluding people
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  745. # [18:34] <jgraham> Could be true
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  749. # [18:37] * jgraham fails to find anything about the capacity of Mozilla SFO
  750. # [18:41] <annevk> Btw, as for GitHub, whatwg/streams seems to suggest we get better feedback via GH than public-webapps got, at least for streams
  751. # [18:42] <jgraham> It does seem to be getting attention, which is good. It's not clear to me whose attention it is getting
  752. # [18:42] <jgraham> e.g. are any browser developers involved?
  753. # [18:44] <annevk> jgraham: they mostly seem to give feedback when implementing, no?
  754. # [18:45] <jgraham> annevk: To a certain extent, I guess
  755. # [18:45] <jgraham> People like Sicking often give feedback before then though
  756. # [18:46] <annevk> He's still implementing XBL I guess :p
  757. # [18:46] <jgraham> And always will be?
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  760. # [19:02] <Ms2ger> jgraham, hmm, I thought we preferred .asis if possible
  761. # [19:02] * Ms2ger doesn't care much either way
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  765. # [19:05] <jgraham> Ms2ger: I guess asis is actually more complicated since you need to pay close attention to every byte
  766. # [19:06] <jgraham> I'm not sure that we have enough experience to make a general rule yet though
  767. # [19:06] <Ms2ger> Let's keep it, then
  768. # [19:06] <jgraham> OK
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  776. # [19:17] <GPHemsley> Hixie: The "sorted" attribute is not in the attributes list
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  778. # [19:18] <annevk> Yeah, .asis is nasty.
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  780. # [19:18] <Ms2ger> How did we end up discussing Google's domains on public-webapps?
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  783. # [19:22] <Domenic_> ^ yes that
  784. # [19:23] <jorendorff> Domenic_: hi. new Promise(function (resolve, reject) {...}) is the new hotness, right? no resolver object for months now, looks like?
  785. # [19:24] * Parts: adactio (~adactio@212.42.170.181)
  786. # [19:24] <Hixie> GPHemsley: thanks, i'll file a bug
  787. # [19:24] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  788. # [19:24] <Domenic_> jorendorff: yup!
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  790. # [19:26] <Hixie> jgraham: certainly i'm all for discussions around ideas, etc. i'm just worried that we not give people the impression that discussing something means it's going in the specs
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  792. # [19:27] <jgraham> Hixie: That seems like an unreasonable expectation to have for pretty much anyone who has been in a technical discussion, ever, but it could be explicitly spelled out if you think there is the chance of confusion
  793. # [19:27] <Domenic_> Hixie: I have found that managing that expectation is best done by saying "here are the things I am interested in spending time on, if you have an esoteric use case you need to find another champion or champion it yourself."
  794. # [19:27] <Hixie> i just don't want a repetition of <picture>
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  796. # [19:28] <jgraham> Yeah, I guess that is a failure mode that we should avoid in the future
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  798. # [19:30] <jgraham> But it does seem like you can deal with that by making it clear to everyone what the actual decison making process is
  799. # [19:30] <jgraham> and if you get the right audience many people will know anyway
  800. # [19:31] <Domenic_> I feel like if people read the WHATWG FAQ everything would be better. It's really good.
  801. # [19:31] <Domenic_> E.g. emphasizing how important it is to get vendors on board.
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  817. # [19:51] <annevk> http://blogs.adobe.com/standards/2013/10/24/forking-standards-and-document-licensing/
  818. # [19:52] <annevk> "Of course this wouldn’t legally prevent individuals and groups from making forks, but hopefully would discourage harmful misuse, while still encouraging innovation."
  819. # [19:53] <annevk> Maybe we should include a helpful notice to advice against copying our work. "W3C please do not copy-and-paste from this specification. The generated confusion over the next decade (or so) is way worse than any potential upside."
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  822. # [19:55] <Jasper> I don't even know what the W3C do anymore.
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  825. # [20:00] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Why does the tbody section come before the thead section?
  826. # [20:00] <Hixie> cos b comes before h?
  827. # [20:00] <Hixie> (just guessing)
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  833. # [20:08] <Domenic_> wow this w3c streams API is getting uglier by the minute. i am feeling very un-threatened.
  834. # [20:09] <annevk> at least you are actually competing :p
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  861. # [20:56] <jamesr__> Domenic_: un-threatened by chaals/et al or by Takeshi?
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  863. # [20:56] <jamesr__> i'm trying to read the technical threads and ignore the non-technical ones, but it's tricky
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  868. # [21:15] <Domenic_> jamesr__: the latter. not sure what to make of the former.
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  905. # [22:29] <Domenic_> SimonSapin: nice :D
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  938. # [23:15] <SimonSapin> Domenic_: sorry, I lost context
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  943. # [23:21] <Domenic_> SimonSapin: the railroad diagrams link
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  945. # [23:24] <SimonSapin> ah, yes
  946. # [23:24] <SimonSapin> thank TabAtkins for that :)
  947. # [23:25] <Domenic_> well, fair point :). TabAtkins: thanks for the railroad diagrams thingy; it's going to make whatwg/streams awesome.
  948. # [23:25] <TabAtkins> Domenic_: No problem! I aim to please. Feel free to file bugs or requests on the Bikeshed repo.
  949. # [23:25] <TabAtkins> Or wait, you're maybe using it standalone. Well, whatever.
  950. # [23:26] <TabAtkins> If you want to use railroad diagrams inline in your spec, feel free to switch to using Bikeshed for your processing needs. ^_^
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  952. # [23:26] <SimonSapin> haha
  953. # [23:26] <Domenic_> markdown for now, we'll see what happens later.
  954. # [23:27] <TabAtkins> Hey, Bikeshed lets you do Markdown paragraphs, at least.
  955. # [23:28] <TabAtkins> Plus: autolinking! You don't realize how much you need it until you start using it.
  956. # [23:28] <TabAtkins> Even just writing documentation in Markdown makes me miss having things autolinked. :/
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The end :)