/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-11-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Nov 07 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  9. # [00:03] <Hixie> heycam|away: so, one oddity is we probably want to handle callbacks that are callbacks into scripts differently than callbacks that are into native methods
  10. # [00:04] <heycam> Hixie, differently in what way?
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  12. # [00:05] <Hixie> well, if you call setTimeout(window.open) from a script that's imported from a different origin, and for some reason there's some exception raised, you want the exception to have muted errors. But if you call setTimeout(foo) where foo is a script in the page's origin, even if the calling script was fetched from another origin, you want the exceptions to not be muted
  13. # [00:06] <Hixie> (all the script origins here are the same, it's just a matter of whether the script comes from another origin or not in the <script src="">)
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  17. # [00:07] <Hixie> also, if you're calling an actual script as your callback, you likely want it to be a new entry script, but if it's a call to a native method, i guess we dont' want a new entry script?
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  20. # [00:07] <heycam> the former is something that comes up with Web Components I guess?
  21. # [00:08] <heycam> for the latter, I'm not sure what a new script entry entails
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  23. # [00:08] <Hixie> the former comes up in regular pages
  24. # [00:08] <Hixie> <script src="foo.js"> exceptions are fine, <script src="http://anothersite.example.com/foo.js"> the exceptions are muted (don't give line number information)
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  27. # [00:09] <Hixie> for the latter: the stack of incumbent scripts is used to determine two things, the "entry script" and the "incumbent script". The "entry script" is the "bottom" of the stack, and incumbent the top. The "entry script" is used sometimes to e.g. determine what the base URL should be, other times we use the incumbent scripts (especially for security checks)
  28. # [00:10] <heycam> I see
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  31. # [00:13] <heycam> anyway, I'll await your comment on the bug
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  34. # [00:16] <Hixie> heycam: well, i'm not sure what to suggest, because i can't work out how you can tell if the callback "is a script" or not
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  39. # [00:17] <heycam> Hixie, I could inspect it at the time the JS Function value gets converted to the IDL type
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  41. # [00:17] <heycam> and associate that information with the IDL callback object
  42. # [00:18] <Hixie> heycam: how would we phrase it? i don't even know how to describe it
  43. # [00:18] <Hixie> heycam: JS doesn't have this concept of something being a script, per se
  44. # [00:18] <heycam> Hixie, well I've already got this term "initial objects"
  45. # [00:18] <heycam> which represents all of the objects that exist due to IDL things
  46. # [00:19] <heycam> I could just check whether it is an initial object
  47. # [00:19] <heycam> means the same as "if this is a Function object that corresponds to an IDL operation, IDL attribute getter, ......."
  48. # [00:20] <Hixie> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/script/callbacks/001.html
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  51. # [00:24] <heycam> Hixie, am I reading that right and the testParentTimeout case is weird?
  52. # [00:24] <Hixie> reload
  53. # [00:24] <Hixie> i edited it after posting the url
  54. # [00:25] <Hixie> the first two buttons demonstrate the simple case of "entry script" being a thing
  55. # [00:26] <heycam> one of your button captions needs updating
  56. # [00:26] <Hixie> reload
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  58. # [00:26] <Hixie> the next two buttons show that it's using the settings object of the setTimeout method, when you start from setTimeout
  59. # [00:26] <Hixie> which i didn't expect
  60. # [00:27] <Hixie> at least in chrome
  61. # [00:27] <Hixie> ah, firefox is differnet
  62. # [00:27] <Hixie> interesting
  63. # [00:28] <heycam> third last and second last buttons are different in chrome/firefox
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  66. # [00:30] <Hixie> looks like chrome just uses the settings object of the method being called, in the case of window.open
  67. # [00:31] <Hixie> but both chrome and firefox do make it an entry script regardless
  68. # [00:31] <heycam> so no oddity difference needed?
  69. # [00:31] <Hixie> er, sorry, s/chrome/firefox/ in my last but one comment
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  71. # [00:31] <Hixie> well, we have to figure out what the script should be
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  73. # [00:32] <Hixie> they're both interesting models
  74. # [00:32] <Hixie> neither is particularly convenient for us
  75. # [00:32] <Hixie> wonder what IE does
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  77. # [00:33] <Hixie> safari is different than chrome?
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  79. # [00:34] <Hixie> wtf is safari doing
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  82. # [00:37] <Hixie> ok IE just takes the biscuit
  83. # [00:37] <Hixie> IE9, anyway
  84. # [00:38] <Hixie> IE9 does inner, outer, inner, inner, and then for the last four buttons just doesn't open a window at all.
  85. # [00:38] <Hixie> i guess that means window.setTimeout(window.open) doesn't work at all in IE
  86. # [00:38] <Hixie> that would certainly make our life easier...
  87. # [00:38] <heycam> :)
  88. # [00:39] <heycam> can I leave you to work out what to do here and you can tell me what info I need to pass into my HTML spec hook call?
  89. # [00:39] <gsnedders> window.setTimeout(window.open)? Do I even want to ask!?
  90. # [00:39] <heycam> and if I need to distinguish between native/JS functions, I can do that
  91. # [00:40] <Hixie> heycam: sure
  92. # [00:40] <Hixie> i probably won't finish today, at this rate
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  248. # [07:57] <cortexA9> hi
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  271. # [09:00] <zcorpan> jgraham: does trickle(d1) send the headers immediately?
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  277. # [09:12] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  278. # [09:19] <Ms2ger`> So it was true that FB was going to do Presto!
  279. # [09:19] <Ms2ger`> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6684318
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  285. # [10:01] <hsivonen> oh, cool. utf-16le is now the name of the encoding and utf-16 is a label
  286. # [10:01] <hsivonen> this has changed recently, right?
  287. # [10:01] <hsivonen> anyway, I'm less annoyed now
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  297. # [10:35] <annevk-cloud> Yeah was changed
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  325. # [12:04] <annevk> So GPHemsley, should http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/New_work become a subpage too then?
  326. # [12:06] <annevk> GPHemsley: your spelling of acknowledgments disagrees with all my specs
  327. # [12:07] <MikeSmith> fwiw about setting up a way to get RF agreements for whatwg specs, I notice that the Dash Industry Forum is using a relatively lightweight means to get RF agreemenents for code contributions to the dash.js library. see https://github.com/Dash-Industry-Forum/dash.js/wiki/How-to-Contribute#process-for-contributing-code and, e.g., https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/dashjs/W4Tmm8sBGX0
  328. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> it's for code, not specs, but it seems like the same thing could be used for spec contributions
  329. # [12:09] <MikeSmith> in fact, they actually just call it a "Feedback Agreement"
  330. # [12:09] <MikeSmith> http://dashif.org/documents/DASH-IF-Feedback-Agreement-5-9-2013.pdf
  331. # [12:10] <MikeSmith> "By signing below, you (on behalf of yourself if you are an individual and your company if you are providing Feedback on behalf of the company) grant the companies under all applicable intellectual property rights owned or controlled by you or your company a non-exclusive, non-transferable, worldwide, perpetual, irrevocable, royalty-free license to use, disclose, copy, publish, license, modify, sublicense or otherwise distribute and exploit Feedback you
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  345. # [12:49] <MikeSmith> I'm trying to remember if there's data somewhere on how many documents on the Web are actually being served with an XML MIME type
  346. # [12:50] <MikeSmith> I mean documents with an XHTML doctype served with an XML MIME type instead of as text/html
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  355. # [13:18] * MikeSmith finds http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama-http-headers/#conttype
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  357. # [13:19] <MikeSmith> 'Of the 3,509,180 URLs that MAMA analyzed, the vast majority (~99.9%) used a "text/html" MIME type'
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  425. # [14:24] <annevk> MikeSmith: I hope you're just doing that because you're curious and not because someone is saying something irrational
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  427. # [14:26] <MikeSmith> umm, I wish I could claim it was because someone isn't saying something irrational, so let's just go with "curious"
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  429. # [14:31] <annevk> You know it's bad when you have to revisit a decade old fact-settled debate.
  430. # [14:32] * TheOtherGallery is now known as TheGallery
  431. # [14:34] <hsivonen> annevk: speaking of those: http://lists.suckless.org/dev/1310/17874.html
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  435. # [14:36] <annevk> hsivonen: gopher man, how do you find this stuff?
  436. # [14:37] <hsivonen> annevk: hendry tweeted it at me
  437. # [14:37] <annevk> haha
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  439. # [14:39] <hsivonen> I wonder if I should add telemetry for those font-only legacy Mac encodings
  440. # [14:39] <annevk> To see if the font code path is being hit?
  441. # [14:39] <hsivonen> annevk: right
  442. # [14:39] * Quits: gerente (~gerente@a89-155-10-201.cpe.netcabo.pt) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  443. # [14:40] <hsivonen> maybe I should add telemetry for legacy stuff that Thunderbird might use, too
  444. # [14:40] <annevk> Is there any Mac OS out there that still needs that?
  445. # [14:40] * Joins: gerente (~gerente@a94-133-101-219.cpe.netcabo.pt)
  446. # [14:40] <annevk> That Gecko supports?
  447. # [14:40] <hsivonen> annevk: I have no idea what fonts people have installed
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  449. # [14:41] <annevk> Ooh, it's not an OS thing, it's a fonts thing?
  450. # [14:41] <annevk> Ew...
  451. # [14:41] <hsivonen> annevk: it's for making sense of data in legacy font files
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  453. # [14:42] <annevk> I guess that does warrant investigation of sorts. Alternatively investigation of the Chrome code base which almost certainly does not do this. (They don't have those encoders/decoders at the Chromium level.)
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  480. # [15:27] <GPHemsley> annevk: Yeah, there are a few more pages that should probably become subpages.
  481. # [15:28] * jorendorff_away is now known as jorendorff
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  488. # [15:46] <GPHemsley> Any chance we could start encouraging subject prefixes on the mailing list, like CSS and others do? (I know I do it with mimesniff.)
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  490. # [15:48] <zewt> how about "Subject: "
  491. # [15:49] <annevk> GPHemsley: no
  492. # [15:50] <GPHemsley> why?
  493. # [15:50] <annevk> A lot of topics encompass lots of different specifications. We should not add bureaucracy that isn't needed.
  494. # [15:50] <GPHemsley> You have a low bar for what is considered "bureaucracy"
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  497. # [15:51] <annevk> Yes
  498. # [15:51] <annevk> Everything that's a "rule" basically.
  499. # [15:51] <annevk> Don't need people that want to contribute to have to go through more rules than strictly needed.
  500. # [15:52] <annevk> It's already too hard for a bunch of them.
  501. # [15:52] <GPHemsley> On the flipside, it's hard for me to figure out what mail to read ;)
  502. # [15:53] <Ms2ger> All of it ;)
  503. # [15:53] <GPHemsley> Ms2ger: Do you really what my unqualified opinion on everything? ;)
  504. # [15:54] <GPHemsley> s/what/want/
  505. # [15:54] <Ms2ger> I want you to read it, not necessarily to reply ;)
  506. # [15:54] <darobin_> GPHemsley: I think the hidden message there is that annevk doesn't want to contribute :)
  507. # [15:54] * darobin_ is now known as darobin
  508. # [15:54] <jgraham> Not sure that reading every mail means responding to everything
  509. # [15:55] <GPHemsley> jgraham: 'Twas hyperbole ;)
  510. # [15:55] * jgraham doesn't read every mail, but also doesn't want more rules for the sake of it
  511. # [15:56] <darobin> I find that if people use meaningful subjects you don't need a prefix
  512. # [15:56] <annevk> GPHemsley: I recommend reading the subjects that interest you
  513. # [15:56] <annevk> darobin: indeed
  514. # [15:56] <darobin> whereas people tend to get prefixes wrong, especially if there are more than two different ones
  515. # [15:56] <annevk> I'd be okay with a "use meaningful subjects" guideline, just like we have a "inline quote" guideline
  516. # [15:57] <darobin> that just falls under proper netiquette really
  517. # [15:57] <annevk> Yeah
  518. # [15:58] <darobin> maybe just training the spam filter to drop emails with poor netiquette would achieve excellent signal to noise
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  524. # [16:15] <SimonSapin> This is nice Frenglish: "Initialized empty Dépôt git dans /home/simon/projects/specs/html/.git/"
  525. # [16:15] <Ms2ger> Why would you use a French OS
  526. # [16:17] <SimonSapin> old habits
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  577. # [18:10] <zcorpan> anyone know about in-browser ITS tools?
  578. # [18:12] <miketaylr> ITS?
  579. # [18:14] * zcorpan -> beijing -> shenzhen
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  582. # [18:16] <Hixie_> wtf, a bunch of characters in the multipage acks got corrupted
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  584. # [18:17] <Hixie_> oh i bet the problem is that some parser doesn't supported named references
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  586. # [18:17] <Hixie_> annnnnnneeeeeeeeeeeeee
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  595. # [18:31] <marcosc> heh, I was also going to curse Anne for something different :)
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  600. # [18:37] <jorendorff> Domenic_: are microtasks going to be spec'd in ES6, and is there already draft text for it?
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  603. # [18:39] <Hixie_> oh, if ES6 is gonna spec them that would make my life easier
  604. # [18:40] * Hixie_ is currently deep in the middle of trying to figure out how to spec them in HTML
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  608. # [18:44] <jsbell> jorendorff/Hixie: relevant (short) thread is https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/es-discuss/2013-October/033940.html
  609. # [18:45] <jorendorff> "easier"; "short"
  610. # [18:46] <jorendorff> OK, my real question was: how deterministic is the ordering of microtasks?
  611. # [18:47] <Hixie_> well i presume they're just going to provide hooks for HTML to use
  612. # [18:47] <Hixie_> it's not like they can actually embed the event loop directly into ES6, given how much HTML-specific crap is around the event loop
  613. # [18:47] <jorendorff> mmhmm
  614. # [18:47] <Hixie_> (e.g. when the event loop starts, etc)
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  616. # [18:47] <Hixie_> (how it's used for non-script-related stuff)
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  620. # [18:56] * Parts: adactio (~adactio@212.42.170.181)
  621. # [18:58] <Hixie_> today's monster is http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/script/callbacks/001.html
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  625. # [19:03] <Hixie_> anyone got IE11 around?
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  627. # [19:07] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  635. #
  636. # Session Start: Thu Nov 07 20:50:04 2013
  637. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  638. # [20:50] * Now talking in #whatwg
  639. # [20:50] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  640. # [20:50] * Set by smaug____!~chatzilla@GGZYYCCCXVIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi on Wed Mar 21 17:14:24
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  646. # [21:00] <jorendorff> clean-stack, definitely; ordering is what i'm after... hmm.
  647. # [21:00] <jorendorff> i'll assume it's mostly deterministics
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  656. # [21:16] <annevk-cloud> It will be deterministic jorendorff
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  659. # [21:17] <jorendorff> ok!
  660. # [21:17] <jorendorff> Domenic_: i was able to remove all direct interaction with microtasks from the module loader stuff by using promises instead
  661. # [21:18] <jorendorff> Domenic_: little worried i'm not doing it right -- that spec is impenetrable, to me -- but i guess the bugs will shake out one stuff runs
  662. # [21:18] <jorendorff> *once
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  702. # [23:06] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  703. # [23:08] <Hixie_> heycam!
  704. # [23:08] <Hixie_> so i've been studying browsers
  705. # [23:08] <Hixie_> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/script/callbacks/001.html has my results and conclusions (see bottom)
  706. # [23:09] <heycam> oh my
  707. # [23:09] <Hixie_> yeah.
  708. # [23:10] <Hixie_> so the only real question that no browsers agrees with is how to determine the entry script (actually, the "settings object", i'll explain what i mean in the bug later) for cases where you call a method with a native method as the callback
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  710. # [23:10] <Hixie_> as in setTimeout(open, ...)
  711. # [23:11] <Hixie_> there are several options:
  712. # [23:11] * danny__ is now known as Guest6182
  713. # [23:11] <Hixie_> 1. we don't support that (IE9)
  714. # [23:11] <Hixie_> 2. we use the data from the global of the method you called (setTimeout in this case) (Chrome, Safari)
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  716. # [23:11] <Hixie_> 3. we use the data from the global of the method you passed as a callback (open in this case) (Firefox)
  717. # [23:12] <Hixie_> 4. we do our own new thing in the interests of sanity
  718. # [23:12] <heycam> to me, 3 sounds like it is more sensible
  719. # [23:12] <Hixie_> (btw Chrome and Safari are incompatible for the more common case of passing a script-defined function, so don't put too much in the fact that they agree on this question)
  720. # [23:12] <heycam> i.e. you look at the thing you will be invoking later
  721. # [23:12] <Hixie_> #2 and #3 have a problem: do we have a way to determine what "global" any random method is related to?
  722. # [23:13] <heycam> yes
  723. # [23:13] <Hixie_> oh excellent
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  725. # [23:13] <heycam> Web IDL says every "initial object" is associated with a particular "global environment"
  726. # [23:13] <Hixie_> initial object is like the method?
  727. # [23:13] <Hixie_> what's a "global environment"?
  728. # [23:13] <heycam> yeah, it's basically all of the objects that exist before you run any scripts
  729. # [23:13] <heycam> (apart from the ES-defined ones)
  730. # [23:13] <heycam> "global environment" is something a bit fuzzy
  731. # [23:13] <Hixie_> so what if someone passes an ES-defined one?
  732. # [23:14] <Hixie_> like, toString
  733. # [23:14] <heycam> I guess my definition won't help there… maybe there is one in the ES spec?
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  735. # [23:14] <heycam> not sure if the spec has begun to talk about realms yet or not
  736. # [23:14] <Hixie_> last i checked, the ES spec didn't acknowledge multiple globals
  737. # [23:14] <Hixie_> but i may not have checked for a while
  738. # [23:15] <heycam> http://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-code-realms
  739. # [23:15] <heycam> ok so you can go from the toString object to the realm
  740. # [23:15] <Hixie_> what does the realm give you?
  741. # [23:15] <heycam> that table of things
  742. # [23:15] <heycam> including the global object
  743. # [23:15] <Hixie_> a global, we can use that
  744. # [23:16] <Hixie_> well if you can get from any random method (script-defined, ES-defined, or WebIDL-defined) to a global, i can do the rest
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  747. # [23:17] <heycam> I can
  748. # [23:17] <Hixie_> ok, cool
  749. # [23:17] <heycam> whew! finally we can use style=""
  750. # [23:18] <TabAtkins> heycam: Hm?
  751. # [23:19] <Hixie_> hmmm... i need to move script origins to the settings object also
  752. # [23:19] <heycam> TabAtkins, sorry, just being facetious about http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/REC-css-style-attr-20131107/ becoming a Rec
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  754. # [23:19] <TabAtkins> Ah, indeed.
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  760. # [23:28] * jorendorff is now known as jorendorff_away
  761. # [23:29] <Ms2ger> Time to deprecate style=""
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  767. # [23:39] <Hixie_> i tried
  768. # [23:39] <Hixie_> people presented... compelling arguments
  769. # [23:39] <Jasper> i'm sure they did
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  781. # [23:54] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: dunno if you're the right one to ask, but, are you on board with javascript: being killed in CSS url()s?
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  783. # [23:54] <TabAtkins> I'm surprised those even work. Do they?
  784. # [23:54] <TabAtkins> Kill them.
  785. # [23:54] <Hixie_> probably not
  786. # [23:54] <Hixie_> ok
  787. # [23:55] <Hixie_> the plan is to move javascript: to just be a quirk of the navigate algorithm
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  789. # [23:55] <Hixie_> i'm about to make the first move towards that, by removing the concept of scripts having origins, the bulk of which is concerned with defining the origin of javascript: scripts
  790. # [23:56] * jorendorff_away is now known as jorendorff
  791. # [23:56] <Hixie_> christ, 1993 matches for "script" in the spec
  792. # [23:56] <Hixie_> this could take a while
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  794. # Session Close: Fri Nov 08 00:00:01 2013

The end :)