/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-11-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Nov 09 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [00:02] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: Right, but what *I'm* saying is that that's not enough. You lose the ability to MQ. You lose the compactness and readability of the Variable-Sized Images grammar.
  7. # [00:03] <TabAtkins> You keep trying to solve the problems you were presented with back when you wrote srcset, and discounting the use-cases that have been collected since. :/
  8. # [00:03] <TabAtkins> Those earlier problems are easy.
  9. # [00:03] <Hixie_> i'm not trying to solve any problems right now except the extreme ugliness of src-* :-)
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  11. # [00:04] <Hixie_> i don't see why you lose any of those abilities
  12. # [00:04] <Hixie_> i'm saying keep the same abilities
  13. # [00:04] <Hixie_> just factor them out so you don't have to keep repeating them
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  19. # [00:17] <Hixie_> anyone got IE around able to test http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/script/callbacks/002.html for me?
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  21. # [00:27] <annevk> Hixie_: you should really get VMWare :-)
  22. # [00:27] <annevk> 0: outer
  23. # [00:27] <annevk> 1: inner
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  25. # [00:28] <annevk> 2: inner
  26. # [00:28] <annevk> 3: nothing happens
  27. # [00:29] <annevk> 4: nothing happens
  28. # [00:29] <annevk> For both 3 and 4 I get this in the console:
  29. # [00:29] <annevk> > SCRIPT65535: Invalid calling object
  30. # [00:29] <annevk> > 002a.html, line 1 character 1
  31. # [00:30] <annevk> Hixie_: this is on IE10, Windows 7
  32. # [00:30] <Hixie_> thanks
  33. # [00:31] <annevk> Hixie_: also, your cute ASCII art made this take longer :p
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  35. # [00:31] <Hixie_> why?
  36. # [00:31] <annevk> Hixie_: distraction :-)
  37. # [00:31] <Hixie_> it's supposed to make it way quicker, since you can just recognise which it is without reading
  38. # [00:32] <Hixie_> (try 001.html instead... it has 33 subtests, so you get tired of reading pretty quick)
  39. # [00:32] <annevk> hah, I guess if you looked at things for a while, but I only got 3 actual result pages
  40. # [00:32] <Hixie_> yeah, for 002 it's not a big deal. i just copied the 'a's from 001
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  45. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: I can't tell if you don't understand the problem, or are trying to say something subtle. Please explain how a template + preloader instructions can handle literally anything more complex than "list of sources and densities".
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  47. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> More properly, as far as I can tell, you don't understand what src-N does, so your suggestions are intentionally too weak because you think that's all that's necessary.
  48. # [00:40] <coldwind> annevk-cloud: are you around?
  49. # [00:40] <coldwind> annevk-cloud: could you look at this path for the URL spec? https://github.com/smola/url/commit/00f0abd934f619e86281083466b65d23cc3f23cc
  50. # [00:40] <coldwind> it seems to me the parsing rules can be simplified a little bit
  51. # [00:40] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: say proposal A results in markup of the form "AAA 111 BBB 222 CCC 333". You could form a different proposal that results in markup of the form "AAA BBB CCC" "111 222 333" with no loss of generality.
  52. # [00:40] <coldwind> patch*
  53. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: So yes, you're assuming that all we need to solve is "list of sources with densities", which is not correct.
  54. # [00:41] <coldwind> annevk-cloud: forget it :p
  55. # [00:41] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: the statement i just made applies to pretty much any feature, it's not specific to images or anything.
  56. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> The problem with src-N is *not* "I have to repeat the densities multiple times".
  57. # [00:42] <TabAtkins> But that's what you're solving.
  58. # [00:42] <Hixie_> i don't know why you keep mentioning densities, they're not relevant to my argument?
  59. # [00:42] <TabAtkins> I'm trying to figure out how your argument is relevant to what we're discussing by casting it to actual syntax and what authors would do.
  60. # [00:43] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: you'll typically have many images with very similar descriptions but different image files, right?
  61. # [00:43] <Hixie_> many <img>s
  62. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> "descriptions"?
  63. # [00:44] <Hixie_> by descriptions i mean method of picking one from many
  64. # [00:44] <Hixie_> media queries, srcset syntax, whatever
  65. # [00:44] <Hixie_> the stuff that isn't file names, that you put in src-* attributes.
  66. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> Oh, you're trying to solve something completely different - "multiple <img> elements use the same basic source patterns".
  67. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> Which is irrelevant for src-N discussions - it's an orthogonal problem.
  68. # [00:44] <Hixie_> as i said above, the problem i'm trying to solve is "img-* is incredibly ugly"
  69. # [00:44] <Hixie_> src-*, rather
  70. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> This doesn't do a thing for that problem.
  71. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> Literally nothing.
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  73. # [00:45] <Hixie_> k
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  75. # [00:46] <TabAtkins> (Also, note that most people's suggested "fix" for "src-N is ugly" is "jam them all into a single attribute with another level of delimiters".)
  76. # [00:48] <Hixie_> yeah, i don't think that's particularly gonna help :-)
  77. # [00:52] <Hixie_> annevk-cloud: actually, would be interesting to see if you got different results on 001 than i did with IE9
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  92. # [01:16] <Hixie_> heycam|away: yt?
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  94. # [01:17] <Hixie_> i wonder why setTimeout(window.open) works but addEventListener('click', window.open) doesn't
  95. # [01:17] * jorendorff is now known as jorendorff_away
  96. # [01:20] <zewt> Hixie_: works for me in chrome (opens a window against the URL "[object%20MouseEvent]")
  97. # [01:20] <zewt> against window.addEventListener
  98. # [01:20] <Hixie_> wow, really?
  99. # [01:20] <Hixie_> weird
  100. # [01:20] <Hixie_> what's your chrome://version say?
  101. # [01:20] <zewt> it's never really clear to me when "detaching" a member function of an object is supposed to work
  102. # [01:20] <zewt> a lot
  103. # [01:21] <zewt> 29.0.1547.66 (Official Build 220848) m
  104. # [01:21] <Hixie_> mine is 32.0.1700.6 (Official Build 233388) dev
  105. # [01:21] <Hixie_> interesting
  106. # [01:21] <Hixie_> i guess they changed that recentlyish
  107. # [01:21] <zewt> like, i remember trying to do "foo = console.log; foo('bar')" and it not working
  108. # [01:21] <zewt> (which I understand, but it's weird that it *sometimes* works)
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  110. # [01:21] <Hixie_> you need console.log.bind(console) probably
  111. # [01:21] <zewt> yeah i get that
  112. # [01:21] <Hixie_> otherwise you're calling window.log
  113. # [01:21] <Hixie_> or whatever
  114. # [01:21] <Hixie_> well, not really
  115. # [01:21] <Hixie_> but you know what i mean
  116. # [01:21] <zewt> well it's calling the function, but with no console bound to it
  117. # [01:22] <zewt> yeah
  118. # [01:22] <zewt> i guess with window.log the "default" behavior just happens to be the same thing (window), so it works?
  119. # [01:22] <zewt> er
  120. # [01:22] <zewt> window.open
  121. # [01:22] <zewt> (or sometimes works, anyway)
  122. # [01:22] <Hixie_> maybe? except it doesn't work for me anymore :-)
  123. # [01:22] <Hixie_> except in setTimeout, it works there...
  124. # [01:22] <zewt> right, "sometimes" :P
  125. # [01:22] <Hixie_> i should try binding it i guess
  126. # [01:23] <Hixie_> next time maybe
  127. # [01:23] <zewt> guess i'll restart chrome to let it update
  128. # [01:23] <zewt> now 30.0.1599
  129. # [01:23] <zewt> fwiw same thing in that version
  130. # [01:24] <zewt> same behavior in FF 23
  131. # [01:24] <Hixie_> i'm on ff25
  132. # [01:25] <Hixie_> and both throw for me
  133. # [01:25] <zewt> maybe we're not testing it the same way?
  134. # [01:25] <zewt> i'm just doing window.addEventListener("click", window.open) and clicking the page
  135. # [01:25] <Hixie_> oh, then you're testing on a window
  136. # [01:26] <Hixie_> i was testing on a button
  137. # [01:26] <Hixie_> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/script/callbacks/001.html
  138. # [01:26] <Hixie_> er
  139. # [01:26] <Hixie_> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/script/callbacks/002.html
  140. # [01:26] <Hixie_> buttons 4 and 5
  141. # [01:26] <Hixie_> if you test on a window, then yeah, the 'this' is probably the window
  142. # [01:26] <Hixie_> so it magically works
  143. # [01:26] <zewt> right
  144. # [01:26] <Hixie_> i commented on the bug https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19211 that i should update the test to bind()
  145. # [01:26] <Hixie_> will do that before changing the spec
  146. # [01:27] <Hixie_> probably monday
  147. # [01:27] <zewt> it makes sense that it would work on setTimeout (this == window) but not during event handling on a random element (this == some element)
  148. # [01:28] <Hixie_> yeah.
  149. # [01:28] <Hixie_> ok, gotta go.
  150. # [01:28] <zewt> have fun going
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  176. # [02:45] <annevk> So all the script concepts have moved around... Note to self: when Hixie_ complaints about Fetch changes, toss this back at him ;P
  177. # [02:45] <Hixie_> this was required because the old stuff was wrong
  178. # [02:46] <Hixie_> (are you relying on this? i wasn't aware of anyone but webidl relying on it, and the changes were made to make webidl work better)
  179. # [02:47] <annevk> Hixie_: XMLHttpRequest relies on script's base URL, origin, and referrer source for workers
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  181. # [02:47] <annevk> Hixie_: Notification in general relies on script's base URL
  182. # [02:47] <Hixie_> ah, hm, interesting
  183. # [02:47] <jgraham> zcorpan: https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/showcomment?chain=661
  184. # [02:48] <Hixie_> annevk: file a bug on me to give you updated text?
  185. # [02:48] <annevk> Hixie_: I'll figure it out and learn something new
  186. # [02:48] <Hixie_> annevk: (i wouldn't update yet, we're not 100% sure this is the end point yet)
  187. # [02:48] <annevk> Hixie_: ah okay
  188. # [02:48] <Hixie_> annevk: k. i should probably check your specs to make sure i'm not gonna break you, anyway
  189. # [02:49] <Hixie_> annevk: i'll file a bug
  190. # [02:50] <Hixie_> annevk: ok, filed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23780 -- btw this might also affect DOM, with addEventListener and friends. we'll see. see also bug https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19211
  191. # [02:50] <sangwhan__> TTWF with completely broken wifi, http://software.intel.com/sites/default/files/wonrg_0.jpg
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  193. # [02:55] <zcorpan> jgraham: replied
  194. # [02:56] <sangwhan__> jgraham: what's the ratio of critic based reviews for web-platform-tests compared to non critic reviews? (i've been hearing from a lot of people they don't like critic, and i'm pretty biased in that regard)
  195. # [02:58] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2626 hmmmm
  196. # [03:01] <annevk> Hixie_: interesting bug
  197. # [03:02] <Hixie_> that's one word for it
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  199. # [03:04] <annevk> Took us about a decade to get here. But we're finally defining script architecture.
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  202. # [03:10] <jgraham> sangwhan__: All the reviews I do are critic based at least. Who doesn't like it?
  203. # [03:10] <jgraham> Could find real stats I guess
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  205. # [03:11] <jgraham> (I want to know so that we can figure out the issues, not to send round the heavies)
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  211. # [03:13] <annevk> No The Last of US, and no Twitter to complain about it...
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  220. # [03:17] <zcorpan> annoying when i can't decide which spec to file a bug against, html, svg, dom, selectors? https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23781
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  226. # [03:22] <annevk-cloud> zcorpan: given that for DOM they are case-sensitive apart from a matching method I think that argues for Selectors
  227. # [03:22] <annevk-cloud> zcorpan: depends a bit on how handwavy Selectors stays
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  235. # [03:44] <jgraham> annevk-cloud: zcorpan is at the front left here
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  244. # [04:06] <GPHemsley> Is any HTML attribute truly required? (I can't find one.)
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  308. # [06:21] <benschwarz> Hixie_: yt?
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  332. # [06:51] <zcorpan> my macbook is annoying again. can't click with the trackpad :-(
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  404. # [09:02] <SimonSapin> annevk-cloud: is there something I can point to to support Attr not being a Node?
  405. # [09:03] <SimonSapin> dom.spec.whatwg.org only says "// historical" near the ATTRIBUTE_NODE constant
  406. # [09:05] <annevk-cloud> It does not inherit from Node…
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  708. # Session Close: Sun Nov 10 00:00:00 2013

The end :)