/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-11-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Nov 11 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <norbert_> are you sure
  4. # [00:00] <norbert_> w3.org is the W3C website
  5. # [00:00] <Hixie_> it's just some wiki page on the w3c website, yes
  6. # [00:00] <norbert_> oh, never mind, I understand what you mean
  7. # [00:01] <norbert_> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/embedded-content-0.html#the-video-element
  8. # [00:01] <norbert_> "When the media resource is playing, hints to the user agent that bandwidth is to be considered scarce, e.g. suggesting throttling the download so that the media data is obtained at the slowest possible rate that still maintains consistent playback. "
  9. # [00:01] <norbert_> so it's in the W3C spec as well then
  10. # [00:01] <KevinMarks> If your content providers bandwidth is limited, they can serve packets out at a slower rate.
  11. # [00:01] <Hixie_> hahaha, really? the w3c spec doesn't get that right even?
  12. # [00:01] <Hixie_> no, they do say the same as the whatwg spec
  13. # [00:02] <Hixie_> "When the media resource is playing, hints to the user agent that bandwidth is to be considered scarce, e.g. suggesting throttling the download so that the media data is obtained at the slowest possible rate that still maintains consistent playback.
  14. # [00:02] <norbert_> yes, see my paste just now
  15. # [00:02] <Hixie_> "
  16. # [00:02] <Hixie_> it's the same text
  17. # [00:02] <norbert_> yes
  18. # [00:02] <Hixie_> ah, right
  19. # [00:02] <norbert_> so I should file a Firefox bug report then
  20. # [00:02] <Hixie_> you should do that regardless of what the w3c spec says
  21. # [00:02] <norbert_> yes, but it's nice when I can say it's mentioned everywhere :)
  22. # [00:03] <Hixie_> i don't think you realise quite how little it matters whether or not the w3c spec says this or not, but whatever floats your boat :-)
  23. # [00:04] <norbert_> the specs should rename "metadata" IMO
  24. # [00:04] <norbert_> it's misleading
  25. # [00:04] <norbert_> anyways
  26. # [00:04] <Hixie_> too late now
  27. # [00:04] <norbert_> thanks for all the feedback and thanks for pointing out the scarce bit of metadata
  28. # [00:04] <norbert_> will file a bug report with Firefox
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  30. # [00:06] <norbert_> hm
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  32. # [00:06] <norbert_> time for bed
  33. # [00:06] <norbert_> thanks again, bye
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  157. # [04:32] <annevk> Domenic_: because if you want to transport some JSON you need to know whether you can use a BOM in front of it or not
  158. # [04:32] <annevk> Domenic_: you can't anticipate clients on the web
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  178. # [05:01] <Hixie_> cabanier: i haven't looked at canvas things for a while, sorry. been trying to get security and scripting figured out.
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  182. # [05:08] <cabanier> Hixie_: no problem! As long as it's on your to do list.
  183. # [05:09] <Hixie_> yup, definitely there
  184. # [05:09] <Hixie_> you can see what's on the todo list here btw: http://www.whatwg.org/issues/
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  193. # [05:20] <jgraham> Do we have any generally agreed on standards for web-platform-tests code? Basically what should I mention when I do code review with webapps?
  194. # [05:21] <jgraham> I guess only darobin is here at the moment :|
  195. # [05:21] <darobin> jgraham: standards? you mean like coding conventions?
  196. # [05:22] * DaveMethvin is now known as DaveMethvin|away
  197. # [05:26] <jgraham> darobin: Yeah. Also what to look for other than just "does the test match the spec"
  198. # [05:26] <jgraham> So for example "use of external resources is bad"
  199. # [05:26] <jgraham> s/bad/forbidden/ I guess
  200. # [05:26] <MikeSmith> jgraham: should mention about, use idlharness for interface tests rather than writing them manually
  201. # [05:26] <darobin> ah
  202. # [05:27] <darobin> no, we don't have a checklist
  203. # [05:27] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Ah, good point
  204. # [05:27] <darobin> it would be good to have a checklist
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  206. # [05:27] <jgraham> Yup, that's what I'm trying to write
  207. # [05:28] <jgraham> Well actually at the moment I have got as far as "here are the review tools". But the next thing will be what to check for when you do the review
  208. # [05:28] <jgraham> Which should actually go in the documentation, so I should write it up properly
  209. # [05:29] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I think another thing to point out is that people should get familiar with the set of available assert_* methods and use the most specific one available when there is one
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  213. # [05:32] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Added
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  253. # [06:58] <jgraham> MikeSmith, zcorpan_: https://etherpad.mozilla.org/MeHiumCufk
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  259. # [07:01] <MikeSmith> jgraham: thanks will try to think if I can add anything useful there
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  264. # [07:03] <zcorpan_> jgraham: why " - Best to avoid the pattern where you have a test that asserts that the feature is supported and bails if it isn't" ?
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  267. # [07:06] <jgraham> zcorpan_: I mean "bails the whole page". When people do this they often depend on some assumptions about feature detection and then assume that none of their other tests will work if the feature detection failed. It seems much better to just run all the tests and let them fail unless that will take a rally long time
  268. # [07:06] <zcorpan_> oh, ok
  269. # [07:06] <jgraham> Getting a consistent number of test results is helpful for some kinds of tracking
  270. # [07:07] <zcorpan_> sometimes there's a separate test that just checks whether the feature is there, independently of the rest of the tests, which seems OK
  271. # [07:07] <zcorpan_> since if it fails it's very easy to see why
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  273. # [07:07] <jgraham> Yep, that is fine
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  275. # [07:08] <zcorpan_> maybe reword that point to be a bit clearer
  276. # [07:09] <jgraham> Sure
  277. # [07:09] <jgraham> These are just notes at the moment
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  299. # [07:26] <MikeSmith> darobin_: https://etherpad.mozilla.org/MeHiumCufk
  300. # [07:26] <darobin_> MikeSmith: ta
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  332. # Session Close: Mon Nov 11 08:06:30 2013
  333. #
  334. # Session Start: Mon Nov 11 08:06:30 2013
  335. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  336. # [08:06] * Disconnected
  337. # [08:20] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  338. # [08:20] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  339. # [08:20] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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  369. # [09:17] <jgraham> Ms2ger: https://etherpad.mozilla.org/MeHiumCufk
  370. # [09:18] <Ms2ger> Nice
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  372. # [09:21] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Contributions welcome
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  385. # [09:38] <annevk> http://xkcd.com/1289/ brilliant
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  387. # [09:39] <Ms2ger> jgraham, when is the session?
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  402. # [10:00] <philipj_> jgraham, what's the best way to run web-platform-tests locally?
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  404. # [10:00] <philipj_> it looks like it needs a web server because of the paths starting with /
  405. # [10:00] <philipj_> also, the ability to run all the tests in a directory would be nice
  406. # [10:01] <jgraham> philipj_: The best way is to check out the jgraham/python_review_2 branch and follow the instructions in README.md
  407. # [10:02] <jgraham> There isn't any way to run a whole directory automatically because that's assumed to be browser-specific
  408. # [10:02] <jgraham> I guess you want to talk to Dirk Pranke
  409. # [10:03] <philipj_> jgraham, on t we had these runner.php in some places, which isn't browser-specific
  410. # [10:03] <philipj_> but it doesn't exist, I get it :)
  411. # [10:04] <jgraham> Right, but some tests depend on not being in an iframe and so on
  412. # [10:04] <jgraham> Could probably make a simple cross-browser harness that would be OK for local usage
  413. # [10:04] <jgraham> In fact Ms2ger might alrady have one
  414. # [10:04] <philipj_> oh, never encountered that for media tests, but of course that's sounds like an insurmountable problem
  415. # [10:04] <jgraham> Well window.open helps
  416. # [10:05] <jgraham> I think the main thing that's hard to do is recover from crashes or hangs or whatever :)
  417. # [10:05] <philipj_> recovering from a crash is indeed hard
  418. # [10:06] <jgraham> (so doing something simple and entirely in-browser might make sense for non-production use cases)
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  420. # [10:07] <philipj_> jgraham, does serve.py need to be run as root?
  421. # [10:07] <jgraham> philipj_: No
  422. # [10:08] <jgraham> It doesn't use port 80, for better or worse
  423. # [10:08] <philipj_> I get socket.error: [Errno 110] Connection timed out
  424. # [10:08] <jgraham> On startup?
  425. # [10:08] <jgraham> Or when trying to access a TC?
  426. # [10:08] <philipj_> on startup
  427. # [10:08] <jgraham> Do you already have something running on port 8000?
  428. # [10:09] <philipj_> Not to my knowledge
  429. # [10:09] <jgraham> By default it tries to use 8000 and a couple of random free ports
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  431. # [10:09] <jgraham> (you can change that in config.json)
  432. # [10:10] <philipj_> lsof | grep -w 8000 does find a few things, but it looks like it's port 8000 on the other side of the TCP connection
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  434. # [10:10] <jgraham> (Is that different to lsof -i :8000 ?)
  435. # [10:10] <philipj_> I have no idea, I've hardly ever used lsof
  436. # [10:11] <jgraham> Right, that's the only usage I know :)
  437. # [10:11] <philipj_> lsof -i :8000 finds one of the four things I saw before
  438. # [10:11] <philipj_> anyway, it's not because of the port, no random port I tested works
  439. # [10:11] <jgraham> Oh
  440. # [10:12] <jgraham> Well can I see the error?
  441. # [10:12] <philipj_> jgraham, http://pastebin.com/C00FKaZM
  442. # [10:12] <philipj_> Python is 2.7.4
  443. # [10:13] <philipj_> wow, pastebin has really horrible ads...
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  445. # [10:15] <jgraham> Doesn't work from China :) (but I can read it anyway)
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  447. # [10:16] <Ms2ger> philipj_, pastebin.mozilla.org doesn't have ads ;)
  448. # [10:16] <jgraham> It isn't very obvious. Did you edit /etc/hosts?
  449. # [10:16] <philipj_> Ms2ger, thanks!
  450. # [10:16] <Ms2ger> And my cross-browser test runner does use iframes (https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/test-runner)
  451. # [10:17] <sangwhan__> philipj_: if all fails "python -m SimpleHTTPServer" works as a quick hack
  452. # [10:18] <philipj_> jgraham, I don't have anything weird in my /etc/hosts
  453. # [10:19] <philipj_> jgraham, maybe I should mentioned that I merged your branch to master instead of actually checking it out, will try doing as you said instead
  454. # [10:19] <jgraham> philipj_: You are supposed to add web-platform.test and some other subdomains
  455. # [10:19] <philipj_> jgraham, oh look, I started reading at the submodule stuff
  456. # [10:20] <jgraham> I should fix to not throw though
  457. # [10:20] <jgraham> There was an older model where it used "localhost"
  458. # [10:20] <jgraham> But localhost turns out to be a magic name
  459. # [10:20] <philipj_> you could try resolving all of the required hosts and telling me to RTFM if it fails I guess
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  461. # [10:21] <jgraham> That is what it's trying to do, almost
  462. # [10:21] <jgraham> It just doesn't work if web-platform.test itself doesn't resolve
  463. # [10:21] <jgraham> Which is a bug
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  466. # [10:24] <philipj_> jgraham, glad to me of service by not reading the readme :)
  467. # [10:24] <philipj_> well now I have it running, so thanks!
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  470. # [10:24] <jgraham> Great :)
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  482. # [10:34] <jgraham> ~.
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  489. # [10:38] <Ms2ger> annevk, yt?
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  491. # [10:39] <annevk> Ms2ger: sure
  492. # [10:39] <annevk> Ms2ger: sitting next to jgraham, plotting
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  494. # [10:40] <Ms2ger> Well, that's an excellent combination :)
  495. # [10:40] <Ms2ger> So the load event fired on window apparently needs to have target==document
  496. # [10:41] <Ms2ger> Want to check if https://github.com/mozilla/servo/pull/1213 is a reasonable way to implement that?
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  499. # [10:44] <annevk> Ms2ger: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#events-and-the-window-object
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  502. # [10:45] <annevk> Ms2ger: not sure what is going on there
  503. # [10:45] <annevk> Ms2ger: or why it is non-compliant
  504. # [10:46] <Ms2ger> Because a fully compliant implementation of page loading is hard
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  506. # [10:47] <annevk> AbstractEventTarget::from_document(document) looks icky
  507. # [10:47] <Ms2ger> Yeah, that's working around the lack of inheritance
  508. # [10:49] <annevk> some sad code
  509. # [10:49] <Ms2ger> So the issue is that step 7.2 of http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-end.html#the-end can't really be done if you call into http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-event-dispatch
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  511. # [10:50] <annevk> remind me
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  513. # [10:51] <Ms2ger> Come again?
  514. # [10:52] * philipj_ is now known as philipj
  515. # [10:52] <annevk> How can it not be done?
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  517. # [10:54] <Ms2ger> Because http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-event-dispatch step 3 sets target to the wrong value, and you'd have to change it to the document somewhere in the middle of the algorithm
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  523. # [11:00] <annevk> Beautiful
  524. # [11:00] <annevk> Ms2ger: file a bug
  525. # [11:01] <annevk> Add this to the have Hixie_ merge HTML and DOM
  526. # [11:01] <annevk> bucket
  527. # [11:01] <hober> we're gonna need a bigger bucket
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  529. # [11:04] <Ms2ger> annevk, not sure how that'd help, except that then Hixie_ would need to fix it :)
  530. # [11:05] <annevk> Ms2ger: for starters we'd have the whole object chain in one spec
  531. # [11:06] <annevk> Ms2ger: anyway, file a bug, disregard bucket for now
  532. # [11:06] <annevk> kthxbai
  533. # [11:06] <Ms2ger> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23792
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  595. # [14:18] <philipj> zcorpan, what do you think about https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/429 ?
  596. # [14:19] <philipj> VTTCue is the only path for testing TextTrackCue, but it looks a bit odd to test TextTrackCue using a new VTTCue(...)
  597. # [14:19] <zcorpan> i'll have a look
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  601. # [14:25] <zcorpan_> annoying how critic handles moved and edited files
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  605. # [14:31] <zcorpan_> philipj: do the tests pass?
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  607. # [14:33] <zcorpan_> philipj: the only things changed are s/TextTrackCue/VTTCue/ basically, right?
  608. # [14:33] <philipj> zcorpan_, only s/new TextTrackCue/new VTTCue/ actually
  609. # [14:34] <philipj> I didn't change any tests to check for the interface object, if there is any
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  611. # [14:37] <zcorpan_> so it seems there are some spec changes that affect these tests. do you want me to comment on that in this review?
  612. # [14:37] <zcorpan_> unrelated to the VTTCue change that is
  613. # [14:41] <zcorpan_> philipj: ^
  614. # [14:41] * jorendorff is now known as jorendorff_away
  615. # [14:41] <philipj> zcorpan_, the fact that not all of these tests are still correct?
  616. # [14:42] <philipj> I'm aware of that, and think it's better to review that when moving out of old-tests
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  618. # [14:42] <zcorpan_> ok, wfm
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  620. # [14:44] <philipj> zcorpan_, how are those two reviews to import more of our tests coming along?
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  622. # [14:48] <zcorpan_> philipj: you mean https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/307 and https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/74 ?
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  624. # [14:48] <philipj> zcorpan_, I think those are the ones you showed me last time, yes
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  626. # [14:48] <zcorpan_> not much has happened
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  629. # [14:50] <zcorpan_> i think the wpt-serve thing makes changes to the files in 74 which makes it more interesting
  630. # [14:51] <jgraham> zcorpan_: You should forward critic feature requests to jl :)
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  632. # [14:51] <zcorpan_> yeah i can file a bug on critic
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  652. # [15:33] <philipj> zcorpan_, https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/430 is also for you
  653. # [15:34] <philipj> (I'm preparing to re-import some of the track tests and want them to not be so ugly first)
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  655. # [15:35] <zcorpan_> hmmm. i'm a bit worried about conflicts with existing PRs there
  656. # [15:37] <zcorpan_> like wpt-serve touches dnd tests iirc
  657. # [15:38] <zcorpan_> i'll hand it over to jgraham
  658. # [15:41] <zcorpan_> now time to sleep
  659. # [15:41] <philipj> oh right, you're at TPAC :)
  660. # [15:41] <zcorpan_> yep
  661. # [15:42] <zcorpan_> i think i'll do some squatting in the morning
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  664. # [15:43] <jgraham> zcorpan_: I am hoping that the merge conflicts won't be too hard to sort out
  665. # [15:43] <philipj> if it's an issue, I can revert the dnd changes, it's just the media stuff I really care about
  666. # [15:43] <jgraham> Since the demantics of the test don't change it should be obvious what the right side of the diff to take is
  667. # [15:44] <jgraham> s/diff/merge/
  668. # [15:44] <zcorpan_> yeah, ok
  669. # [15:44] <zcorpan_> *poof*
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  834. # [21:27] <jensnockert> Domenic_: Good work on the Streams API btw.
  835. # [21:27] <Domenic_> jensnockert: thank you! Great comment BTW.
  836. # [21:28] <jensnockert> Thanks.
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  853. # [22:03] <jensnockert> Domenic_: What I find most unclear is, if I write something to an 'identity' pipe, can it return the same object on the other end? Or is it always a copy?
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  855. # [22:05] <jensnockert> For example, a tee pipe, is the same object returned on all endpoints?
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  858. # [22:12] <Domenic_> jensnockert: nothing would stop you from returning the same object.
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  860. # [22:12] <jensnockert> Cool.
  861. # [22:13] <Domenic_> I think the built-in tee pipe would not do any sort of clone, although you could imagine someone building a StructuredCloneTeeStream or something
  862. # [22:13] <jensnockert> Yeah, but anything that is up to the implementer is cool.
  863. # [22:14] <jensnockert> Err… programmer.
  864. # [22:15] <jensnockert> Whatever the word is for 'The person implementing the custom stream type'
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The end :)