/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-11-27 / end

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  49. # [01:08] <zcorpan> Hixie: have you considered if it makes sense for microdata to use img src if there's also srcset?
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  52. # [01:11] <tantek> zcorpan, what's the use case?
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  56. # [01:12] <tantek> and is anyone publishing microdata or microformats with <img srcset> ?
  57. # [01:12] <tantek> any URLs to real world examples?
  58. # [01:13] <zcorpan> no, just asked if it was a case that has been considered
  59. # [01:14] <zcorpan> considering if two features make sense together can be a useful thing to do without starting with a use case
  60. # [01:14] <tantek> I'm still waiting for more real world experience reports re: use of just srcset
  61. # [01:15] <tantek> nevermind with formats
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  86. # [01:55] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: will try to implement new script restrictions in the validator soon but may not get to it til end of the year holidays
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  88. # [02:01] <Hixie> zcorpan: never considered them together
  89. # [02:01] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/mid/1385505093.3251.101.camel@chacal is pretty awesome given the w3c's fork of whatwg specs
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  250. # [11:21] <Ms2ger> "sometimes I feel we're building more and more complex structures on top of foundations we barely understand"
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  257. # [11:53] <jgraham> barely?
  258. # [11:53] <jgraham> That seems unreasonably optimistic
  259. # [12:01] <smaug____> very much so
  260. # [12:01] <smaug____> Ms2ger: where is that from ?
  261. # [12:02] <Ms2ger> https://twitter.com/johnallsopp/status/405615160586280960 apparently
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  273. # [12:27] <gsnedders> hsivonen, annevk: what's the status with getting rid of locale specific fallback encodings? is all the discussion just the odd chat in here? (there seems to be no emails I can see, looking quickly?)
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  275. # [12:28] <hsivonen> gsnedders: no status for getting rid of it for IP number URLs, .com, .org or .net
  276. # [12:28] <hsivonen> gsnedders: for other TLDs, I have a patch
  277. # [12:28] <hsivonen> gsnedders: but there's a handful of TLDs that need more research
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  279. # [12:28] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Do we have data for those TLDs as to how accurate it is?
  280. # [12:29] <hsivonen> gsnedders: and I lack a good landing plan
  281. # [12:29] <hsivonen> gsnedders: no
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  283. # [12:29] <hsivonen> gsnedders: most are no-brainers
  284. # [12:29] <hsivonen> gsnedders: but there are some non-obvious ones
  285. # [12:32] * gsnedders is tempted to try and get actual data on this, and see whether bi-grams over the first 512 bytes (that's what we use for <meta detection, right?) yields anything useful, esp. for "generic" TLDs
  286. # [12:32] <gsnedders> In other news, I probably should do uni work instead of procrastinate doing stuff like this :)
  287. # [12:32] <hsivonen> gsnedders: For landing plan, I see 3 options: 1) on by default, 2) off by default and 3) randomly on or off with telemetry for A/B testing
  288. # [12:33] <hsivonen> gsnedders: I'd appreciate you researching stuff like this
  289. # [12:35] <gsnedders> hsivonen: While I'm tempted to try and do something along these lines for MSci thesis, I think that's probably too far off to be much use (that'd be a year and a quarter or so away from being done); may add this to list of things to play around with next summer. Probably won't have time over Christmas to do anything like this, given I have enough uni to catch up on.
  290. # [12:35] <gsnedders> So, yeah, summer is probably the best outcome :(
  291. # [12:36] <gsnedders> Anyhow, to lecture. ttyl!
  292. # [12:36] <hsivonen> gsnedders: I see
  293. # [12:36] <hsivonen> gsnedders: I think I'll either do research or make guesses before summer
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  301. # [12:51] <annevk> gsnedders: I think it's 1024 bytes
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  320. # [13:22] <annevk> "The fact that you (or even I)" lol
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  322. # [13:23] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2013Nov/0190.html some meme material right there
  323. # [13:25] <annevk> Non-Unicode locales?!
  324. # [13:25] <annevk> That thread went stupid fast
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  346. # [14:07] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Still, might find some improvement on guesses.
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  460. # [15:31] <zewt> cool, to remove email search notifications on ebay i'm required to agree to a new contract
  461. # [15:31] <zewt> don't agree? permanent spam!
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  515. # [16:50] <gsnedders> I'm going to a talk on congestion control in WebRTC in 15 minutes. What I ought I be questioning?
  516. # [16:50] <gsnedders> s/I ought/ought/
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  518. # [16:52] <JonathanNeal> I haven't followed the living spec in a while, has anything replaced <hgroup>?
  519. # [16:53] <gsnedders> JonathanNeal: It's still in the WHATWG spec, just not in the W3C one.
  520. # [16:53] <gsnedders> JonathanNeal: To my knowledge, it has no replacement in the W3C one.
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  524. # [16:57] <JonathanNeal> gsnedders: good to know, thanks. is there a W3C channel for taking this up?
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  526. # [16:59] <gsnedders> JonathanNeal: There'#html-wg on irc.w3.org, but you're just as likely to get an answer here by waiting
  527. # [17:00] <JonathanNeal> Waiting for who or what?
  528. # [17:01] <gsnedders> Other people to be around :)
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  535. # [17:23] <JonathanNeal> gsnedders: are there other notable differences between what the specs say?
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  540. # [17:33] <Domenic_> can of worms...
  541. # [17:35] <Domenic_> basically every time SteveF writes an article about some exciting HTML5 feature, e.g. on html5doctor.com you can guarantee it's something he made up for the W3C fork.
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  547. # [17:44] <annevk> Hmm. Spotify took Eve away and now they put it back. DRM *shakes fist*
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  550. # [17:50] <JonathanNeal> Domenic_: speaking of Steve, are there thoughts around http://rawgithub.com/w3c/subline/master/index.html ?
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  552. # [17:51] <JonathanNeal> That comes up every year or so and then sits there and then life just goes on.
  553. # [17:51] <Domenic_> JonathanNeal: I am not the person to ask, sorry, just a bystander on the sidelines of the great W3C forking effort :)
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  564. # [18:17] <Ms2ger> jgraham, I think we agreed that https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/showcomment?chain=807 was fine; want to resolve? :)
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  568. # [18:19] <jgraham> Ms2ger: I think we agreed that you were going to convert the whole file :p
  569. # [18:20] <Ms2ger> jgraham, we did, but surely not in this PR :)
  570. # [18:20] <jgraham> Well
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  572. # [18:21] <jgraham> Since you can have multiple commits in a single PR, I wouldn't actually object
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  574. # [18:21] <Ms2ger> Dammit
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  595. # [19:03] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I might try and start to play around with stuff while I'm back at my parents over xmas, not sure how far I'll get though
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  612. # [19:49] <JonathanNeal> If I want to markup a subheading (or subtitle, alternative title, tagline), should I use <hgroup>? What is the W3C alternative since they have removed <hgroup>?
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  616. # [19:55] <Ms2ger> Use hgroup
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  638. # [20:33] <Domenic_> did ... did someone just reference the HTML4 spec?
  639. # [20:37] <JonathanNeal> Steve's response to my question above was a link to http://blog.paciellogroup.com/2013/10/html5-document-outline/
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  643. # [20:44] <SteveF> jonathonNeal: hgroup is as dead as <center>, <font> etc
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  645. # [20:46] <JonathanNeal> With much time to reflect since the last update, what are your thoughts on <subhead>, SteveF?
  646. # [20:47] <SteveF> JonathonNeal: difference is Google like <font> and <center> more https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1gnQg-3jQSytv60ozANjM7BK-OhiP7elf13P5oXHT6CM/present#slide=id.g11be9b862_114
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  648. # [20:49] <JonathanNeal> I don't see such markup. WayBackMachine link?
  649. # [20:50] <SteveF> JonathanNeal: there does not appear to be any great enthusiasm from dev's for a a feature to identify subheadings full stop
  650. # [20:51] <SteveF> JonathanNeal: i just looked at google.co.uk in Firefox 25/windows and font/center are present
  651. # [20:53] <JonathanNeal> re: second statement, that's bizarre.
  652. # [20:53] <JonathanNeal> re: first statement, except from me every few months full stop?
  653. # [20:54] <SteveF> JonathanNeal: that slide was from a month or so ago on https://www.google.fr/ just looked again and 2 <font> 1 <center>
  654. # [20:54] <JonathanNeal> SteveF: yes, I saw it too, just now.
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  662. # [21:04] <Domenic_> while we're asking semantics questions... for progress from trade date to maturity date, I am thinking <progress max="number of days between them" value="days between now and trade date" />. Thoughts? I was originally thinking <meter> but this is fairly progresion-ey.
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  674. # [21:26] <gsnedders> hsivonen: "http://s.validator.nu/html5/html5full-rdfa.rnc":1:0: error: Syntax error. happens when running build/build.py all given that server appears to not resolve
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  677. # [21:31] <Jasper> Is there any guarantee that modifying an element will cause a reflow to happen synchronously?
  678. # [21:31] <Jasper> e.g. elem.classList.add('foo'); elem.getBoundingRect().width;
  679. # [21:32] <Domenic_> Oh interesting, there's a WHATWG validator page too?
  680. # [21:32] <gsnedders> Jasper: No, because reflows are an implementation detail
  681. # [21:32] <Jasper> Whatever the correct word for the semantics of that is.
  682. # [21:32] <gsnedders> Jasper: The script will block for layout, yes.
  683. # [21:32] <gsnedders> Jasper: That is guaranteed.
  684. # [21:32] <Jasper> Is there any reference for this?
  685. # [21:32] <gsnedders> Jasper: When it reads the bounding rect
  686. # [21:33] * Jasper couldn't find anything in the HTML or DOM specs
  687. # [21:35] <gsnedders> Jasper: It's implicit in CSSOM that the bounding rect must be correctly computed
  688. # [21:35] <gsnedders> Jasper: Whether or not it draws to screen is not defined
  689. # [21:35] <Jasper> Right.
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  691. # [21:36] <Jasper> gsnedders, well, is the guarantee only for the bounding rect, or for anything that affects layout?
  692. # [21:36] <gsnedders> Jasper: Anything.
  693. # [21:36] <gsnedders> Jasper: The CSSOM is all synchronous. Of course, the implementation is free to delay actually recomputing style as long as possible.
  694. # [21:36] <Jasper> OK. I just couldn't find it in any spec.
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  697. # [21:37] <gsnedders> Jasper: It's in the CSSOM spec, by virtue of the interfaces mutating one thing then reading it back somewhere else, all synchronous actions.
  698. # [21:41] <Jasper> gsnedders, I'm scanning through it now, but I can't see anywhere that it says that it is synchronous.
  699. # [21:41] <Jasper> Unless it's implicit by the serialization step.
  700. # [21:42] <gsnedders> Jasper: Basically it defines the steps the host objects must execute when called, and defines their return points.
  701. # [21:42] <gsnedders> Jasper: If they don't return until the end of the function, they are obviously synchronous
  702. # [21:42] <gsnedders> Also, it's a bit of a horrible interaction between various specs here :)
  703. # [21:43] <gsnedders> (with the classList example)
  704. # [21:43] <Jasper> Yeah, I hope you'll admit it's not the easiest thing to parse in the world.
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  706. # [21:45] <gsnedders> Someone else might be able to point better at quite how style mutation is defined for classList, but essentially both operations should syncrhonously read/write the layout state.
  707. # [21:45] <Jasper> Oh, duh.
  708. # [21:45] <Jasper> I was looking at the CSSOM spec, when *clearly* I should have been looking at the CSSOM View Module spec
  709. # [21:45] <gsnedders> Yeah, you probably want CSSOM, CSSOM View, *and* HTML for this.
  710. # [21:46] <gsnedders> Maybe CSS 2.1 too.
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  727. # [22:00] <JonathanNeal> So, in short, SteveF, you're saying no one implements <hgroup>, no one implements the outline algorithm, so ... be cautious with your <h1-6> tags. Is that right?
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  734. # [22:09] <Domenic_> browsers implement <hgroup> (it is HTMLElement not HTMLUnknownElement), but SteveF is saying that their implementation of it is as/less important than their implementation of <center>.
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  746. # [22:23] <JonathanNeal> Hmm. Domenic_: do any non-whatwg-w3c content parsers, search engines, screen readers, or accessibility apps respect <hgroup>?
  747. # [22:25] <Domenic_> I don't know; my impression is SteveF has done some research that says the answer is no.
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  776. # [23:18] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: it's very early days yet for any of the contemporary html heading stuff, whether <hgroup> or <section> or anything else
  777. # [23:20] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: in practice, if you use hgroup, the worst you'll get is the same as what you get with the same W3C specs have done it for years (a subsection heading where you'd expect a subheading), which in practice is fine for users
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  779. # [23:20] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: (plus you get the advantage of being able to style it better)
  780. # [23:21] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: and on the long run software will improve modestly so as to treat it as a sunheading rather than a subsection heading
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  784. # [23:29] <Hixie> ok i'm updating acid3 - removing test 67 attributes.removedNamedItemNS
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  787. # [23:32] <JonathanNeal> Hixie: thanks for that.
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  791. # [23:49] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
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  796. # [23:56] <Hixie> anyone know if IE does navigator.addProtocolHandler() ?
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  798. # Session Close: Thu Nov 28 00:00:00 2013

The end :)