/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-12-02 / end

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  160. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: about the validator XHTML1 schema, I'm wondering if you remember why the xml:space attribute for the style element in the schema
  161. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> https://bitbucket.org/validator/validator/src/7625938e679a27265ae625e57b5ed33c063dfacb/schema/xhtml10/style.rnc?at=default#cl-44
  162. # [08:57] <MikeSmith> oh wait maybe I see why
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  164. # [08:59] <MikeSmith> you added it to some other patterns
  165. # [09:00] <MikeSmith> anyway, I ask above if you remember why you zapped it from style
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  167. # [09:01] <MikeSmith> I assume it's probably because you intended that it be included in some other pattern that the style schema inclluded
  168. # [09:03] <MikeSmith> but anyway at this point it doesn't, and the effect is that the validator flags any style element with an xml:space attribute as an error
  169. # [09:06] <MikeSmith> which is especially a problem if you turn the "load external entities" option on, because the XHTML1 DTD makes xml:space #FIXED 'preserve' for style
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  171. # [09:07] <MikeSmith> so the XML parser adds it if it's not there already, and then the validator flags it as an error even though it's not even present in the input document (pre-parsing)
  172. # [09:07] <MikeSmith> which from a user perspective is pretty confusing
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  175. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> OK yeah I see now that you created an "xml.space.attrib" pattern and added it to the "Core.attrib" pattern
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  177. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> the problem is that because the style.attlist pattern doesn't include Core.attrib, that has the effect of xml:space no longer being allowed for the style element
  178. # [09:17] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: do you know, is Servo still using hubbub for HTML parsing?
  179. # [09:17] <Ms2ger> Yup
  180. # [09:17] <Ms2ger> Want to finish the translation? :)
  181. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> heh
  182. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> thanks for the kind offer, but no thanks
  183. # [09:18] <Ms2ger> Aww
  184. # [09:19] <Ms2ger> Oh hey, tests for marquee
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  186. # [09:19] <MikeSmith> nice
  187. # [09:19] <MikeSmith> who from?
  188. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: btw, <!doctype html><p>Test
  189. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> in servo
  190. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> with no </p> end tag
  191. # [09:20] <Ms2ger> Intel
  192. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> hmm
  193. # [09:21] <MikeSmith> I think Intel may have some people with too much time on their hands then
  194. # [09:21] <MikeSmith> which person at Intel? Not Zhang?
  195. # [09:22] <Ms2ger> xiaojunwu, but I don't know if they wrote or just submitted them
  196. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> so can I assume that <!doctype html><p>Test fails to render as expected because of broken parsing? or some other reason?
  197. # [09:23] <Ms2ger> Looking
  198. # [09:25] <Ms2ger> Looks like we don't do a reflow
  199. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> well
  200. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> that's odd
  201. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> I wouldn't think that should be depending on the presence of the end tag in the input document
  202. # [09:28] <Ms2ger> Or not
  203. # [09:29] <MikeSmith> seems like it must be constructing a different DOM
  204. # [09:30] <MikeSmith> so please add an Inspect Element in Servo so I can inspect the DOM
  205. # [09:30] <Ms2ger> Heh
  206. # [09:30] <MikeSmith> in exchange I'll contribute some marquee tests for Servo
  207. # [09:30] <Ms2ger> DOM looks sane
  208. # [09:30] <MikeSmith> weird
  209. # [09:31] <Ms2ger> Oh no it doesn't
  210. # [09:31] <Ms2ger> There's no Text
  211. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> that would probably do it I guess
  212. # [09:33] <Ms2ger> File an issue?
  213. # [09:33] <MikeSmith> hai
  214. # [09:33] <Ms2ger> Not that I expect it to be fixed before we get the new parser
  215. # [09:33] <MikeSmith> this will be the first non-build-related bug I reported for Servo
  216. # [09:33] <Ms2ger> Which brings us to... :)
  217. # [09:33] <MikeSmith> heh
  218. # [09:34] <MikeSmith> first I'd need to learn Rust
  219. # [09:34] <MikeSmith> which I think would require me dosing up more than normal
  220. # [09:35] <Ms2ger> It's actually quite nice :)
  221. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> btw by file an issue you mean a bugzilla.mozilla bug? or a gh issue?
  222. # [09:35] <Ms2ger> Github
  223. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> oK
  224. # [09:35] <Ms2ger> Unfortunately
  225. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> yeah well I guess they're going to fully break new ground they might as well use a broken bug-reporting system too
  226. # [09:38] <Ms2ger> Ouch.
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  228. # [09:39] <MikeSmith> well I was going to say if they're going to make a toy browser engine they might as well use a toy bug-reporting system
  229. # [09:39] <MikeSmith> but I decided not to say that
  230. # [09:39] <MikeSmith> because that would be really obnoxious
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  232. # [09:42] <Ms2ger> Hey, Samsung might actually ship it
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  234. # [09:44] <MikeSmith> good maybe they can have somebody finish the parser work
  235. # [09:44] <MikeSmith> it is going to be very cool when it does finally ship
  236. # [09:44] <MikeSmith> it's pretty crazy how far along it is after just a year
  237. # [09:45] <Ms2ger> Could use more people who know about the DOM, fwiw ;)
  238. # [09:45] <MikeSmith> plh!
  239. # [09:46] <MikeSmith> I won't tell him but I'll suggest to him that he learn Rust just for fun
  240. # [09:46] <Ms2ger> Heh
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  249. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> yipes Mike West getting a little carried away in the blink "Intent to remove"-fest https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/#!topic/blink-dev/14q_I06gwg8
  250. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> "what we currently do with the tag is strange, and doesn't seem to actually support it's usage in the wild.
  251. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> where what they are currently doing with the tag = conforming to what the HTML spec requires them to do with
  252. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> which is admittedly pretty strange
  253. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> but you'd hope engineers would be reading the specs before proposing to yank stuff
  254. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> especially when he's citing the spec in his message
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  277. # [11:14] * Ms2ger wants a version of http://simon.html5.org/tools/js/unicodeize/ that also gives the names of the characters
  278. # [11:18] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: fork it :-)
  279. # [11:18] <Ms2ger> Sorry
  280. # [11:18] <Ms2ger> I want someone else to make it :)
  281. # [11:20] * Joins: sankha93 (~Instantbi@fsf/emeritus/sankha93)
  282. # [11:22] <zcorpan> there's http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/cgi/unicode-decoder/character-identifier but i don't know if that helps
  283. # [11:24] <zcorpan> i wonder why https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/437 doesn't show the meta refresh commit
  284. # [11:24] <Ms2ger> Oh, that's neat too
  285. # [11:25] <Ms2ger> Even though it says (this script is currently broken)
  286. # [11:25] * Quits: abarth (uid5294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qazdatvjymglbjub) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
  287. # [11:25] <Ms2ger> I'd fix it to match what I need, but it's perl :/
  288. # [11:25] * Ms2ger specs PI serialization instead
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  291. # [11:29] * Ms2ger notices that Travis didn't serialize the target
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  293. # [11:41] <Ms2ger> So, a PI with an empty data
  294. # [11:41] <Ms2ger> "<?a ?>" or "<?a?>"?
  295. # [11:42] <jgraham> zcorpan: Better?
  296. # [11:42] * Joins: shwetank (~shwetank@oslo-guest.fw-osl.opera.com)
  297. # [11:42] <zcorpan> jgraham: yep, thanks
  298. # [11:43] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: in xml?
  299. # [11:43] <Ms2ger> Yeah
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  304. # [11:44] <jgraham> 08:32 < Ms2ger> It's actually quite nice :)
  305. # [11:45] <jgraham> Ms2ger: One word: AbstractNode
  306. # [11:45] <Ms2ger> jgraham, we're busy removing that ;)
  307. # [11:46] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: what does ie do?
  308. # [11:46] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Sure, but the fact that it ever happened :)
  309. # [11:47] <jgraham> (I like Rust btw, but the inability to model the DOM without craziness is rather unfortunate)
  310. # [11:47] <Ms2ger> IE and Chrome have the space, Gecko doesn't have one
  311. # [11:49] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: then include the space :-)
  312. # [11:49] <zcorpan> http://www.browserstack.com/screenshots/b7d6431d229dc231b4dbd4948514028a882dfed6 :-|
  313. # [11:50] <Ms2ger> How about in HTML?
  314. # [11:51] <Ms2ger> Chrome and IE throw when you create a PI, Gecko serializes without a space
  315. # [11:52] * Ms2ger tries something else
  316. # [11:52] <zcorpan> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-end.html#html-fragment-serialization-algorithm defines that already, with space
  317. # [11:58] <zcorpan> if i understand the spec correctly then <embed type=image/svg+xml> should create a browsing context that is able to load basically anything into it
  318. # [12:02] <annevk> zcorpan: no, because that's not a plugin that the browser supports
  319. # [12:04] <zcorpan> annevk: hmm. in that case the resource has to have image/svg+xml content-type to create the browsing context. and then you can navigate to anything
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  321. # [12:05] <annevk> zcorpan: yeah
  322. # [12:05] <Ms2ger> Hmm, HTML is interesting
  323. # [12:06] <Ms2ger> The HTML spec and Gecko do <?a >, IE and Chrome do <?a ?>
  324. # [12:06] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, so what do you think about that? :)
  325. # [12:07] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: i think the spec is right
  326. # [12:09] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: html ends the bogus comment on the first > and in sgml PIs end with >
  327. # [12:09] <Ms2ger> It's been a while since I heard SGML used as an argument here :)
  328. # [12:10] <annevk> Is this for serializing a processing instruction?
  329. # [12:10] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  330. # [12:10] <annevk> Just do the same as in XML?
  331. # [12:11] <Ms2ger> zcorpan disagrees :)
  332. # [12:11] <annevk> Either that or serialize as a plain comment
  333. # [12:11] <annevk> <!--target contents-->
  334. # [12:11] * Ms2ger steps back to let the people who care fight it out
  335. # [12:11] <zcorpan> annevk: why?
  336. # [12:12] <annevk> zcorpan: same path as XML is simpler and more predictable, HTML comments generates less errors on a reparse
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  340. # [12:20] * Ms2ger will post to the list later
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  342. # [12:28] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: Maybe I added xml:space to all elements and had to remove it from <style> to avoid the double attribute error from Jing
  343. # [12:30] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: as far as I can see in the current schema it's not been added to all elements. Because you added it to Common.attrib but <style> doesn't use Common.attrib
  344. # [12:33] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: OK. I have no idea what I was thinking, then
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  348. # [12:39] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: Maybe you were thinking that the schema you started from was probably consistent and logical :)
  349. # [12:39] <Ms2ger> Ehehehe
  350. # [12:40] <MikeSmith> can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear
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  352. # [12:41] <MikeSmith> since the specs the schema is modeling aren't consistent and logical
  353. # [12:41] <Ms2ger> That's an interesting expression
  354. # [12:41] <hsivonen> yeah, I don't think the schema writers are to blame in this case
  355. # [12:42] <annevk> Why do we want to allow xml:space though?
  356. # [12:42] <annevk> Seems like a bug
  357. # [12:42] <hsivonen> (and I don't mean myself but the earlier authors)
  358. # [12:42] <annevk> And why would <style> not have Common.attrib?
  359. # [12:42] <hsivonen> annevk: I may have been thinking that xml:space should be allowed throughout as part of the XML layer
  360. # [12:43] <hsivonen> annevk: I made the changeset MikeSmith is referring to back when I still tried to support xml:id, too
  361. # [12:43] <annevk> xml:id :-)
  362. # [12:44] <hsivonen> annevk: well, you believed in xml:id once, too
  363. # [12:44] <annevk> Oh yeah, was just laughing because I forgot about it
  364. # [12:47] * Ms2ger goes off for lunch
  365. # [12:47] <annevk> Ms2ger: https://github.com/whatwg/domparsing/pull/1
  366. # [12:48] <Ms2ger> Huh
  367. # [12:48] <Ms2ger> I missed that
  368. # [12:48] <Ms2ger> Will merge it after lunch
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  370. # [12:53] <MikeSmith> annevk: the reason for the schema not allowing Common.attrib for style is that that the XHTML1 spec doesn't allow style to have certain global attributes. Which makes sense because HTML4 didn't allow them for style either, and XHTML1 was supposedly just a reformulation of HTML4 in XML
  371. # [12:53] <MikeSmith> but then I notice that the XHTML1 spec allows style to have the id attribute, despite the fact that HTML4 didn't
  372. # [12:54] <annevk> Why do we still validate HTML4?
  373. # [12:54] <MikeSmith> annevk: and this is all just about XHTML1/HTML4 checking in the validator, so the reason to allow xml:space is because the XHTML1 spec allows it
  374. # [12:55] <MikeSmith> annevk: so I can retire the legacy W3C validator for once and all
  375. # [12:55] <annevk> Can't we retire both?
  376. # [12:55] <annevk> And wow, didn't know that was still around
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  378. # [12:56] <MikeSmith> yeah, despite me doing my best to kill it
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  380. # [12:57] <MikeSmith> anyway, the requirement I've been given is that I need to continue to provide support for checking HTML4 and XHTML1 documents
  381. # [12:57] <borior> annevk: hey there, I've been pointed in your direction after moaning a lot about the absence of a vendor-agnostic browser extension API and/or packaging format
  382. # [12:57] <annevk> MikeSmith: dude, you sound like Steven Pemberton now :p
  383. # [12:57] <annevk> "Our charter told us to build XHTML 2.0, so we did."
  384. # [12:58] <borior> I've been reading about the webapps wg. Where's the best place to get an overview of the current state of affairs and intended directions?
  385. # [12:59] <annevk> borior: I'm not sure anyone is working on standardized packaging at the moment, maybe the SysApps WG?
  386. # [12:59] <annevk> borior: I'm not a big fan of packaged apps: http://the-pastry-box-project.net/anne-van-kesteren/2013-december-2/
  387. # [13:00] <borior> right, neither am I
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  389. # [13:00] <annevk> borior: as for extensions, that might make sense, but given that we have enough trouble as it is to agree on public APIs, standardizing internal APIs seems tough
  390. # [13:00] <borior> the use case I'm interested in at the moment is annotation
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  400. # [13:01] <borior> which in technical terms, for me, means I'd like to authorise some code to run in an isolated execution context on every page i visit, with access to the DOM
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  403. # [13:01] <borior> this doesn't require packaging, per se, but it would require some mechanism to install that intent (and code) into my UA
  404. # [13:02] <borior> which seems partially to be the intent of the mozApps stuff
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  406. # [13:02] <borior> but hey, that's vendor-specific again, and it makes me sad :(
  407. # [13:02] <MikeSmith> annevk: I forgot to mention that I'll also be adding XForms support. When I'm done with that I plan to also include modularization and then, decentralized extensibility
  408. # [13:03] <annevk> MikeSmith: sounds like you'll be hitting your bonus targets
  409. # [13:04] <annevk> borior: yeah, I don't think we're even close on getting to some standardized solution for problems like that
  410. # [13:05] <borior> annevk: is is something worth raising in the webapps wg lists? or are you focused on features for specific (i.e. "has-a-url") pages?
  411. # [13:05] <borior> *it
  412. # [13:06] <annevk> borior: doesn't hurt to ask I suppose, but I don't know anyone trying to tackle that
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  415. # [13:06] <borior> okay, that's really helpful, anyway
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  429. # [14:04] <annevk> Domenic_: do we have a way yet to see how many tests a browser passes of the promises test suite?
  430. # [14:05] <annevk> Domenic_: even if not run through the Ecma test suite?
  431. # [14:05] <annevk> Domenic_: would be nice to see how much Gecko passes before we enable it by default in https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=918806
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  445. # [14:36] <zcorpan> anyone know why <embed name> is obsolete?
  446. # [14:37] <zcorpan> just don't want to embrace the browsing context aspect of it?
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  463. # [15:04] <annevk> Okay, what's the context for the ice cream memes?
  464. # [15:04] <annevk> I'm not finding it on public-restrictedmedia :/
  465. # [15:05] <zcorpan> annevk: follow the link in the post
  466. # [15:08] <annevk> zcorpan: ta
  467. # [15:08] <annevk> zcorpan: I'm having a hard time following that
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  473. # [15:28] <zcorpan> Hixie: the spec status annotation thing could have some more context in the password email so that it's easier to find
  474. # [15:28] <darobin> I really likes that ice cream analogy
  475. # [15:28] <SimonSapin> annevk: All URLs (including with non-relative scheme) have a fragment, but not a query?
  476. # [15:29] <SimonSapin> http://url.spec.whatwg.org/ says "An absolute URL must be a scheme, followed by ":", followed by scheme data, optionally followed by "?" and a query."
  477. # [15:29] <annevk> SimonSapin: URLs have a query
  478. # [15:29] <SimonSapin> data:text/html,Test?query#fragment shows ?query as part of the content
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  480. # [15:30] <zcorpan> Hixie: like including terms like "whatwg", "html standard", "Specification annotation system"
  481. # [15:30] <annevk> SimonSapin: sure
  482. # [15:30] <jgraham> darobin: For the content, or for the fact that it mentions ice cream
  483. # [15:30] <jgraham> ?
  484. # [15:30] <darobin> jgraham: yes
  485. # [15:30] <annevk> SimonSapin: content being scheme data, ?, query
  486. # [15:30] <jgraham> darobin: s/or/xor/
  487. # [15:31] <SimonSapin> hum, ok
  488. # [15:31] <darobin> s/yes/quantum superposition/
  489. # [15:31] <Ms2ger> s/darobin/cat/
  490. # [15:31] <darobin> Ms2ger: that's already a given :)
  491. # [15:32] <annevk> I thought it was dahut
  492. # [15:32] <jgraham> I couldn't really understand the content
  493. # [15:32] * Ms2ger puts darobin in an unobservable box
  494. # [15:32] <annevk> But ice cream!
  495. # [15:32] <annevk> Ms2ger: I thought the box was observable
  496. # [15:32] <jgraham> I don't know who are supposed to be the equivalent of ice-cream vendors in this situation
  497. # [15:32] <darobin> annevk: no I *hunt* dahuts
  498. # [15:32] <darobin> Ms2ger: please include ice cream
  499. # [15:32] <Ms2ger> annevk, I was wondering who was going to be pedantic about it :)
  500. # [15:32] <annevk> darobin: must be some big ass cat
  501. # [15:33] <Ms2ger> darobin, there will be a superposition of ice cream and no ice cream, that's the best I can do
  502. # [15:33] <darobin> annevk: hey! I may have put on some weight, but I think "big ass" is stretching it
  503. # [15:33] <darobin> Ms2ger: I reckon that's superposably delicious
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  505. # [15:34] <jgraham> (I also think that argument-by-analogy is very silly)
  506. # [15:34] <jgraham> (and generally leads to bad results)
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  508. # [15:35] <annevk> Yeah, much better to argue through authority
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  510. # [15:35] <darobin> jgraham: this is TimBL, you have to think hypertextually
  511. # [15:35] <Ms2ger> Well, if annevk says so...
  512. # [15:35] <annevk> I'm on the TAG, now shut up
  513. # [15:35] <gsnedders> jgraham: Do you have any opinion on what should be an attribute and what should be a method in Python?
  514. # [15:35] <daleharvey> So, anyone know who I should ask about crazy behaviour with websql on safari?
  515. # [15:35] <darobin> his point is linked to the part where he talks about only having Apple content on iOS, only having Sony content on Sony devices, etc.
  516. # [15:35] <daleharvey> I mean crazier than usual behaviour, obviously
  517. # [15:36] <Ms2ger> daleharvey, why are you using websql?
  518. # [15:36] <annevk> daleharvey: maybe ask in #webkit? WebSQL isn't really part of the web
  519. # [15:36] <darobin> same with ice cream with limited distribution if the fridges are all controlled by a given company
  520. # [15:36] <daleharvey> backwards compat :(
  521. # [15:36] <jgraham> darobin: That doesn't seem like a problem at the moment, and doesn't seem like it will become a problem in any scenario where EME could make a difference
  522. # [15:36] <darobin> I'm not sure I agree (the argument seems to rely on indie film makers really wanting DRM, I'm not sure that's the case), but within those parameters it has merit
  523. # [15:37] <jgraham> gsnedders: Are you actually asking about usedEncoding?
  524. # [15:37] <gsnedders> jgraham: Yes.
  525. # [15:37] <daleharvey> annevk: cool cheers
  526. # [15:37] <jgraham> gsnedders: I think parser.encoding could be fine
  527. # [15:37] <darobin> jgraham: yeah, I'm not saying that it reaches the heart of the problem, just that it makes sense as a problem *if* it is a problem
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  532. # [15:39] <jgraham> gsnedders: (that is, perhaps, a bit misleading; one could argue that it should be documentEncoding or something. But shortness seems desirable)
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  534. # [15:40] <SimonSapin> jgraham: there is naming, and there is property vs. method
  535. # [15:41] <SimonSapin> Properties look like attributes, which are cheap to access. So properties that are expensive (in run time) to access are bad, but this is not the case here.
  536. # [15:41] <jgraham> SimonSapin: I don't see ehy it would be a method in this case
  537. # [15:41] <SimonSapin> ok
  538. # [15:41] <jgraham> It just reflect a lower-level attribute
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  543. # [15:43] <SimonSapin> for naming, I wanted it to show that it may be different from the given encoding parameter (eg. if there is a BOM)
  544. # [15:43] <hsivonen> zcorpan: if you don't like the WebKit/Blink hack for x-user-defined in <meta>, do you prefer my other option at https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=213517#c13 ?
  545. # [15:43] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: See my recent bug on needing to split the encoding argument up
  546. # [15:44] <SimonSapin> yes
  547. # [15:44] <SimonSapin> it’s related
  548. # [15:44] <gsnedders> hsivonen: +1 for WebKit/Blink behaviour
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  550. # [15:46] <gsnedders> jgraham: I share SimonSapin's concern about ambiguity given encoding parameter
  551. # [15:47] <jgraham> shrug
  552. # [15:47] <hsivonen> gsnedders: can you elaborate on why you prefer the WebKit/Blink behavior?
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  554. # [15:47] <jgraham> If you think it's a big deal, use documentEncoding or something
  555. # [15:49] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i think i prefer special-casing XHR in terms of being less insane, but i don't care strongly either way, and i don't have an opinion about the font/UI issue
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  557. # [15:50] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I think the font/UI issue is the deciding factor
  558. # [15:51] <hsivonen> zcorpan: though I dislike the craziness of HTTP-level x-user-defined in the WebKit/Blink case
  559. # [15:52] <zcorpan> hsivonen: so for the record let's consider #3 remove mystery UI, make x-user-defined alias of windows-1252 everywhere except XHR and in XHR it maps to the x-user-defined encoding
  560. # [15:52] <SimonSapin> gsnedders: I have http://pythonhosted.org/webencodings/ that implements http://encoding.spec.whatwg.org/ , if that helps
  561. # [15:52] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: Change it to be an attribute (possibly just a getter?) and probably go for documentEncoding? Either that or follow CSS WG habit and call it "bikeshed"? :)
  562. # [15:52] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: Can you file a bug somewhere along those lines?
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  567. # [15:59] <SimonSapin> gsnedders: done and done
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  569. # [16:00] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: I've filed a bug on webencodings, btw
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  571. # [16:04] <SimonSapin> gsnedders: when is getstate/setstate it useful?
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  573. # [16:15] * hsivonen sees TimBL's DRM reply on www-tag
  574. # [16:15] <hsivonen> whoa
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  577. # [16:21] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: I've used it in implementation of a decoder than can change the currently used decoder while decoding.
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  579. # [16:22] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: For the sake of changing when you have a meta beyond the pre-scan and need to change the encoding of the input stream.
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  581. # [16:24] <Domenic_> annevk: I think I have time to work on that tonight, should be relatively straightforward.
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  593. # [16:47] <darobin> Domenic_: if I were a friend I'd tell you to run away fast; but since I don't really know you that well: best of luck in the elections :)
  594. # [16:50] <jgraham> darobin: misanthrope
  595. # [16:50] <darobin> jgraham: hey, I've been there, I'm allowed to relish the pain of others who stumble down the same path
  596. # [16:51] <darobin> though to be honest, the TAG just ain't what it used to be :)
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  627. # [17:53] <JonathanNeal> Hello!
  628. # [17:53] <Domenic_> darobin: thanks/haha :). where was the announcement? Haven't seen it yet.
  629. # [17:54] <darobin> Domenic_: it's coming out soon
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  631. # [17:57] <Domenic_> should probably fire up ye old blog engine then...
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  645. # [18:16] <darobin> Domenic_: yeah, get the blog warmed up, and ping the band manager when you have something!
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  647. # [18:17] <Domenic_> installing ruby on work computer.... @_____@ why is everything so hard
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  657. # [18:30] * jgraham wonders what you call a group of managers
  658. # [18:30] <Ms2ger> A herd?
  659. # [18:30] <Ms2ger> A meeting?
  660. # [18:30] <jgraham> I was thinking "Committee"
  661. # [18:30] <jgraham> I had an object called a ManagerPool
  662. # [18:30] <jgraham> But it isn't really a pool
  663. # [18:31] <Ms2ger> ManagerMeeting? Sounds good to me :)
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  679. # [19:01] <annevk> Domenic_: sweet
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  715. # [20:17] <Hixie> smaug____: pong
  716. # [20:18] <Ms2ger> Hixie, wdyt about PI serialization in HTML, btw?
  717. # [20:21] <smaug____> Hixie: the question was about http://logbot.glob.com.au/?c=freenode%23whatwg&s=1%20Dec%202013&e=1%20Dec%202013#c842854
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  725. # [20:25] <Hixie> Ms2ger: do PIs still exist?
  726. # [20:26] <Hixie> smaug____: looking...
  727. # [20:26] <Hixie> smaug____: it's defined in various places
  728. # [20:26] <Hixie> smaug____: usually when a Document is created
  729. # [20:26] <Hixie> smaug____: though i think there's at least one case (document.open, iirc) where the assignment changes on the fly
  730. # [20:26] <smaug____> especially "the Window object with which document is currently associated."
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  732. # [20:26] <smaug____> I couldn't find where it is defined
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  734. # [20:27] <smaug____> but perhaps I was searching for wrong key words
  735. # [20:27] <Ms2ger> Hixie, sure
  736. # [20:28] <Hixie> smaug____: "Create a new Window object, and associate it with the Document" at #create-a-document-object is the main place
  737. # [20:28] <Hixie> smaug____: looks like the about:blank document never gets explicitly associated, let me file a bug to fix that
  738. # [20:28] <smaug____> And data documents aren't associated either, right?
  739. # [20:29] <smaug____> which is why I started to wonder http://logbot.glob.com.au/?c=freenode%23whatwg&s=1%20Dec%202013&e=1%20Dec%202013#c842849
  740. # [20:29] <Hixie> smaug____: and document.open() says "Replace the Document's singleton objects with new instances of those objects. (This includes in particular the Window [...]"
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  743. # [20:29] <Hixie> smaug____: some documents don't have an associated window, right
  744. # [20:30] <Hixie> smaug____: an interesting question
  745. # [20:31] <Hixie> smaug____: looks like "get the current value of the event handler" doesn't check for that case, oops
  746. # [20:31] <smaug____> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#getting-the-current-value-of-the-event-handler would have a null pointer error, effectively
  747. # [20:32] <Hixie> yeah
  748. # [20:32] <Hixie> ok, i filed a bug on that too
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  750. # [20:32] <Hixie> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23957 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23956
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  752. # [20:33] <smaug____> I wonder what behavior we want for the latter one
  753. # [20:33] * smaug____ should test non-Gecko browsers
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  771. # [21:13] <aleray> Hi, in html5lib python, how to choose between etree, lxml and dom for treewalker?
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  778. # [21:24] <TabAtkins> aleray: Just look at the libraries and figure out which one has the things you want?
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  780. # [21:25] <TabAtkins> I use the lxml treewalker. It's not a good API at all (I've had to write several DOM compat shims for missing functions), but it's compatible with CSSSelect, another library that converts CSS Selectors into XPath for me.
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  784. # [21:33] <aleray> TabAtkins, thanks
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  799. # [22:00] <Domenic_> Man that @w3ctag twitter account is having a hard time.
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  802. # [22:01] <TabAtkins> Domenic_: What's wrong?
  803. # [22:02] <Domenic_> First it got the wrong date, then the wrong link
  804. # [22:02] <TabAtkins> Ah.
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  864. # [23:04] <Hixie> so does anyone have an opinion on cite=""?
  865. # [23:04] <Hixie> the obvious answer is "let's drop it, nobody uses it"
  866. # [23:05] <Hixie> but that seems a bit sad
  867. # [23:05] <Hixie> even the spec uses them
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  869. # [23:05] <Hixie> (by "nobody uses it" i meant no UAs make use of it)
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  871. # [23:05] <Hixie> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22907
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  875. # [23:10] <tantek> Hixie - I've been leaning more and more negative on cite="" (presuming you mean on q and blockquote)
  876. # [23:10] <tantek> cite="" feels very longdescy
  877. # [23:11] <tantek> attributes to URLs which don't cause any noticeable effect in the browser tend to either rot or become polluted with noise.
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  879. # [23:11] <tantek> it's an invisible metadata problem
  880. # [23:11] <Hixie> its main difference with longdesc="" is that since there's been no advocacy for it, the data isn't unusually bad
  881. # [23:11] <Hixie> but yeah
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  883. # [23:11] <tantek> Hixie, and I've *tried* to use it too (and often still do) but often wonder what's the point.
  884. # [23:12] <Hixie> ditto
  885. # [23:12] <tantek> It's like, oh maybe I'll make use of this in some script or JS thing eventually...
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  887. # [23:12] <Hixie> there's been a note in the spec for many years suggesting adding a <credit> element for <figure>, which could take a similar role if used with a <a> in <q>/<blockquote>
  888. # [23:12] <tantek> but that never seems to happen :(
  889. # [23:12] <Hixie> that would make it less hidden-metadatay
  890. # [23:13] <tantek> nah, since it's a URL it should be something that works with <a href>
  891. # [23:13] <tantek> an already visible URL building block
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  893. # [23:13] <Hixie> right that's what i mean
  894. # [23:13] <tantek> I mean not a new element
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  897. # [23:13] <tantek> maybe someway to tie the q/blockquote with the <a href> to the source.
  898. # [23:14] <Hixie> something like <blockquote> ... <credit> Quoted from <a href="...">foo bar</a>, copyright 2004. </credit> </blockquote>
  899. # [23:14] <tantek> similar to <label for> maybe
  900. # [23:14] <tantek> oh just by nesting? perhaps
  901. # [23:14] <Hixie> a lot of people really want some sort of nesting for blockquote
  902. # [23:14] <Hixie> (not sure why <figure> isn't enough, but that's another issue -- and credit/a-href could work there too)
  903. # [23:15] <tantek> I really don't know what that means "want some sort of nesting for blockquote"
  904. # [23:15] <tantek> I've tried using <figure> and it's been awkward enough that I gave up.
  905. # [23:15] <tantek> I can try again I suppose.
  906. # [23:15] <Hixie> what's awkward about it?
  907. # [23:16] <Hixie> by "some sort of nesting" i mean people want the <blockquote> to contain the citation as well somehow
  908. # [23:16] <tantek> the markup just didn't seem to fit into how I was authoring the images / text
  909. # [23:16] <Hixie> ah
  910. # [23:16] <Hixie> would be interesting to study that
  911. # [23:16] <tantek> yeah
  912. # [23:16] <tantek> I should gather some more detailed data/feedback
  913. # [23:16] <Hixie> <figure> was designed to just take the place of the <div> people were using anyway
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  915. # [23:16] <tantek> but wanted to at least share that rough impression
  916. # [23:16] <tantek> as (un)helpful as that is
  917. # [23:17] <tantek> typically these are all example I run across when writing blog posts
  918. # [23:17] * tantek is still sad Hixie has switched to blogging on G+ rather than ln.hixie.ch
  919. # [23:18] <Hixie> g+ gave me per-post acls, which i've wanted for years
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  921. # [23:18] <Hixie> g+ sucks when you want inline links or diagrams though
  922. # [23:19] * Joins: fishd (fishd@nat/google/x-jzpzwjjawwldtjti)
  923. # [23:20] <tantek> Hixie - maybe only post on G+ when you need an ACL then, and otherwise post your "public" posts on ln.hixie.ch?
  924. # [23:20] <mrbkap> dglazkov: ping?
  925. # [23:20] <tantek> Hixie - you could always add G+ sign-in to ln.hixie.ch to show ACL'd posts there ;)
  926. # [23:20] <Hixie> tantek: g+ also gives me other things, like comments, spam filtering on comments, etc
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  929. # [23:20] <tantek> Hixie, I'll get back to you once we've solved the blog comment spam problem :)
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  931. # [23:23] <Hixie> heh
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  933. # [23:24] <Hixie> good luck with that
  934. # [23:24] <Hixie> (i'm also pretty sure far more people read my stuff now than did on my blog)
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  937. # [23:26] <tantek> yeah that may be a harder problem than the spam problem (reach/distribution)
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  954. # [23:39] <Hixie> there's dozens and dozens of features that people have asked for in HTML that, before I can progress on them, I need to figure out whether anyone cares about
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  969. # Session Close: Tue Dec 03 00:00:00 2013

The end :)