/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-12-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Dec 04 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:01] <Hixie> oops
  5. # [00:01] <Hixie> marked the last two commits as editorial
  6. # [00:02] <Hixie> but they're normative
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  8. # [00:03] <othermaciej> Hixie: a challenge to making a non-proprietary version is that app-not-running push generally needs an intermediary service of some kind, and therefore requires the web server authenticating to that push server
  9. # [00:03] <Hixie> yeah
  10. # [00:04] <Hixie> for that reason i was mostly hoping someone else was working on it so it could be Not My Problem. :-)
  11. # [00:04] <othermaciej> Push API punts on solving that (and also on defining the protocol you use to talk to the push service)
  12. # [00:04] <Hixie> pity
  13. # [00:05] <othermaciej> Push API isn't even a suitable generic cover over a not-fully-specified set of non-interoperable protocols like EME is
  14. # [00:06] <Hixie> it does seem to be common for spec writers to punt on the hard stuff
  15. # [00:06] <Hixie> it's like spec writers think there's glory in writing specs
  16. # [00:06] <Hixie> poor, poor misguided spec writers :-)
  17. # [00:06] <othermaciej> I don't think we could convert Safari's proprietary push stuff to that API for instance, because it has no mechanism for providing an authentication token to the app server that will then talk to the push server
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  19. # [00:07] <Hixie> it doesn't provide a way to close the loop?
  20. # [00:07] <Hixie> that seems like a pretty big hole
  21. # [00:07] <Hixie> i guess send feedback?
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  23. # [00:11] <othermaciej> adding to TODO list
  24. # [00:11] <Hixie> :-)
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  66. # [01:26] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Hmm... not easily. I don't think we can do it from within the normal interface, but we can probably do it by hacking the template/theme somehow.
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  69. # [01:29] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Hmm, actually, we might be able to do it with some custom CSS.
  70. # [01:29] <GPHemsley> annevk: Were there other pages that you didn't want to see the anonnotice on?
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  75. # [01:36] <annevk> GPHemsley: on the wiki? All of them I think
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  77. # [01:37] <annevk> GPHemsley: you solved a minor problem with something far too heavyweight in my opinion
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  79. # [01:37] <GPHemsley> annevk: Did you have an alternative solution?
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  82. # [01:37] <annevk> GPHemsley: not sure how many page views the thing gets from non logged in users though, but whenever I visit it on my phone I dislike it
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  84. # [01:38] <annevk> GPHemsley: maybe include the account banner on the registry pages
  85. # [01:38] <annevk> GPHemsley: the bit about specification discussions does not seem warranted
  86. # [01:39] <annevk> GPHemsley: we can just remind individuals of that fact every now and then
  87. # [01:39] <annevk> GPHemsley: or put in the FAQ
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  91. # [01:43] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Gone from the FAQ page now. If there are any other pages where you want it gone, edit MediaWiki:Common.css (and remember to clear the cache by clicking on the clock in the upper right corner of the page in question).
  92. # [01:43] <GPHemsley> annevk: Everything in the anonnotice was done in response to something.
  93. # [01:44] <annevk> GPHemsley: I believe you, but I'm saying that boilerplate is not the right solution
  94. # [01:44] <annevk> GPHemsley: and that the problem might not be as big as you make it out to be
  95. # [01:44] <annevk> GPHemsley: the wiki is more read than written
  96. # [01:45] * GPHemsley shrugs
  97. # [01:45] <GPHemsley> I'll revisit it at some point.
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  123. # [02:58] <rniwa> sicking: yt?
  124. # [02:58] <sicking> rniwa: yup
  125. # [02:59] <rniwa> sicking: I just replied on your response to custom elements reaching CR
  126. # [02:59] <rniwa> sicking: as I mentioned in the email, we share the same concern you expressed
  127. # [02:59] <rniwa> sicking: in particular, it seems strange to move the custom elements spec into CR without moving other parts of the web components at least into the last call
  128. # [03:00] <sicking> agreed
  129. # [03:00] <rniwa> sicking: it might make sense to restrict the shadow DOM to only custom elements for now
  130. # [03:00] <rniwa> sicking: so that we don't have to resolve all the issues associated with attaching shadow DOM onto existing builtin html elements
  131. # [03:00] <rniwa> such as form controls, img, etc... that has been tricky to spec
  132. # [03:01] <sicking> don't know, i haven't followed this in enough detail
  133. # [03:01] <rniwa> hayato_: ping
  134. # [03:01] <rniwa> sicking: i think the problem, as you correctly pointed out, is that other vendors haven't had enough time to review the specifications :(
  135. # [03:01] <rniwa> sicking: i sympathize with google in that they've been working on this stuff for years
  136. # [03:02] <rniwa> but it'll be really unfortunate if we end up not being able to implement what's been spec'ed at the end of the day
  137. # [03:02] <hayato_> rniwa: y
  138. # [03:02] <sicking> yup
  139. # [03:02] <rniwa> hayato_: am I correct in saying that the reason shadow DOM spec. is having a hard to move forward
  140. # [03:02] <rniwa> hayato_: is because we can't really spec what happens with replaced elements, etc...?
  141. # [03:03] <sicking> rniwa: Is Dave Hyatt involved in the shadow DOM stuff at all from your side? It would be great to have his input
  142. # [03:03] <rniwa> hayato_: as far as I know, the behavior of shadow DOM is very well defined if we restrict ourselves to custom elements. am I wrong on this?
  143. # [03:03] <rniwa> sicking: unfortunately not that much at this point :(
  144. # [03:04] <rniwa> sicking: but I'm working with Sam and Maciej
  145. # [03:04] <hayato_> rniwa: let me catch up. what topic are you discussing? shadow dom on built-in elements?
  146. # [03:04] <rniwa> sicking: and they're also familiar with XBL so hopefully I've got it covered
  147. # [03:04] <rniwa> hayato_: yeah
  148. # [03:04] <rniwa> hayato_: so there is a concern sicking raised
  149. # [03:04] <rniwa> hayato_: which is that other browser vendors haven't had a time to review custom elements
  150. # [03:05] <rniwa> hayato_: and we have a concern that moving custom elements spec. forward without moving the rest of web components forward might be risky
  151. # [03:05] <rniwa> hayato_: in that we might end up having to "fix" custom elements later
  152. # [03:05] <hayato_> rniwa: there is a lot of unclear issues on shadow dom for built-in elements.
  153. # [03:05] <rniwa> hayato_: yeah
  154. # [03:05] <rniwa> hayato_: so why can't we punt that for now and move with the rest of the spec?
  155. # [03:05] <hayato_> rniwa: and there is no strong demand for that.
  156. # [03:06] <rniwa> hayato_: as far as I understand it, there is a tremendous value in supporting shadow DOM for custom elements
  157. # [03:06] <rniwa> hayato_: right
  158. # [03:06] <rniwa> hayato_: and extending the spec to support attaching shadow DOM on bulletin elements is a natural extension we can add later
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  160. # [03:06] <rniwa> hayato_: so we can spec. the shadow DOM for custom elements so that we wouldn't block custom elements forever
  161. # [03:07] <rniwa> hayato_: does that make sense?
  162. # [03:07] <rniwa> sicking: ^
  163. # [03:07] <sicking> like I said, i haven't looked at the shadow DOM spec enough to have an opinion on this
  164. # [03:07] <rniwa> sicking: okay.
  165. # [03:07] <rniwa> sicking: will you be fine with spec'ing shadow DOM just for custom elements as v1 though?
  166. # [03:08] <hayato_> spec is here: http://w3c.github.io/webcomponents/spec/shadow/#html-elements-and-their-shadow-trees
  167. # [03:08] <sicking> i'll defer to William Chen and mrbkap
  168. # [03:08] <rniwa> sicking: or do you think attaching shadow DOM on builtin shtml elements is an important use case?
  169. # [03:08] <rniwa> mrbkap: ping?
  170. # [03:08] <hayato_> rniwa: But this is outdated.
  171. # [03:08] <sicking> i definitely think that attaching shadow DOM to form controls is an important use case. It might be part of one solution for styling form controls
  172. # [03:08] <sicking> which is a sorely needed feature
  173. # [03:09] <hayato_> tkent-san has been working on supporting shadow dom for built-in element, such as input elements in blink.
  174. # [03:09] <rniwa> sicking: isn't that decorator though
  175. # [03:11] <hayato_> we thought that attaching Shadow DOM to built-in elements is important use case, but it turned out there is no much demands from developers.
  176. # [03:11] <esprehn> We can't restrict it to custom elements without making shadow dom and custom elements tightly coupled
  177. # [03:12] <rniwa> esprehn, hayato_: we can add some optional argument in document.register to create a shadow DOM, right?
  178. # [03:12] <esprehn> For example a browser may implement support for one before the other, shipping shadow dom shouldn't be blocked on custom elements
  179. # [03:13] <rniwa> esprehn: but nobody can ship shadow DOM because there is no spec.
  180. # [03:13] <esprehn> It had a spec, what do you mean?
  181. # [03:13] <rniwa> esprehn: attaching shadow DOM on builtin elements is undefined as is
  182. # [03:13] <esprehn> It is not undefined
  183. # [03:13] <esprehn> No more than attaching it to a div or a span, you mean specific things like input
  184. # [03:14] <hayato_> rniwa: http://w3c.github.io/webcomponents/spec/shadow/#html-elements-and-their-shadow-trees is trying to address that.
  185. # [03:14] <rniwa> esprehn: input element is a builtin element
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  188. # [03:14] <esprehn> So is div, but shadow dom works fine with it
  189. # [03:14] <rniwa> esprehn: for the spec to have a defined behavior for builtin elements, it needs to define behaviors of attaching shadow DOM on every single element we have
  190. # [03:14] <rniwa> esprehn: including SVG and MathML elements
  191. # [03:15] <esprehn> Or it could allow it only only div, span, td, etc for now and we could expand it later
  192. # [03:15] <rniwa> esprehn: that'll be fine
  193. # [03:15] <rniwa> esprehn: I think the problem here is that we can't move the spec. forward because there are too many edge cases to consider
  194. # [03:15] <esprehn> Restricting to only custom elements is too restrictive
  195. # [03:15] <rniwa> esprehn: maybe.
  196. # [03:15] <rniwa> esprehn: but what are use cases of using shadow DOM for other elements than custom elements?
  197. # [03:16] <esprehn> Wanting something special on a <td>
  198. # [03:17] <rniwa> esprehn: why don't you just put an element inside td then?
  199. # [03:17] <esprehn> I guess if you could <td is=foo> as custom
  200. # [03:17] <esprehn> That argument does not generalize
  201. # [03:17] <esprehn> We could eliminate all features :)
  202. # [03:18] <rniwa> esprehn: as I understand it, we've punted declarative syntax for custom elements for v2
  203. # [03:18] <esprehn> Yes
  204. # [03:18] <rniwa> esprehn: then I don't see why we want to address that use case in shadow DOM v1
  205. # [03:18] <esprehn> Huh?
  206. # [03:18] <rniwa> esprehn: <td is=foo>
  207. # [03:18] <sicking> rniwa: decorators would just be a way of attaching a shadow DOM. The actual rendering should still be done using shadow DOM
  208. # [03:18] <rniwa> sicking: sure
  209. # [03:18] <esprehn> Declarative custom elements and type extensions are totally unrelated
  210. # [03:18] <rniwa> sicking: but as I understand it, we haven't spec'ed that anywhere, right?
  211. # [03:19] <rniwa> sicking: so it seems natural for attaching shadow DOM to builtin elements and decorator to be spec'ed at the same time
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  213. # [03:19] <sicking> rniwa: and in the meantime, being able to attach a shadow DOM to a form control, or a header/table/whatever is a great way of working around the lack of decorators
  214. # [03:19] <esprehn> Not having declarative syntax has no bearing on td is=foo
  215. # [03:19] <sicking> rniwa: maybe
  216. # [03:20] <sicking> rniwa: (the "maybe" being a reply to your latest comment)
  217. # [03:20] <rniwa> sicking: that's a good point.
  218. # [03:21] <rniwa> sicking: I'm not convinced that shadow DOM is the right way to address the problem of styling form controls though
  219. # [03:21] <esprehn> If we're concerned with complex widgets I'm fine with a whitelist
  220. # [03:21] <rniwa> sicking: it seems like we want something like what webkit exposes for form controls spec'ed
  221. # [03:21] <sicking> rniwa: what's that?
  222. # [03:21] <esprehn> Although the current idea (and what we implement) is that adding a ShadowRoot makes the native behavior go away
  223. # [03:21] <sicking> rniwa: see also my latest email to WHATWG
  224. # [03:22] <rniwa> sicking: these: http://trac.webkit.org/wiki/Styling%20Form%20Controls
  225. # [03:22] <esprehn> It turns into a <div> effectively
  226. # [03:24] <sicking> rniwa: yeah, something in that general direction.
  227. # [03:25] <rniwa> sicking: I think spec'ing these will be better than having authors replace builtin form controls
  228. # [03:25] <rniwa> sicking: and then can provide some form serialization mechanism
  229. # [03:25] <esprehn> Authors already replace the builtins
  230. # [03:25] <esprehn> The pseudo elements are not flexible enough
  231. # [03:26] <sicking> rniwa: authors need to be able to fully replace the styling though. So that you can turn a checkbox into a switch, or a <select> into a map
  232. # [03:26] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  233. # [03:27] <rniwa> sicking: why don't authors just write a custom element at that point?
  234. # [03:27] <sicking> rniwa: accessibility
  235. # [03:28] <sicking> rniwa: and you could get better platform integration
  236. # [03:28] <rniwa> sicking: but if authors are replacing it with a shadow DOM or whatever, then accessibility is somewhat broken unless they've explicitly set tabindex, etc... right?
  237. # [03:28] <sicking> rniwa: which is kind'a the same thing
  238. # [03:28] <esprehn> Or because they want the HTMLSelectElement API or search engines
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  240. # [03:28] <sicking> rniwa: and having to re-implement the full form API, and keep it up-to-date as the web grows, seems annoying
  241. # [03:29] <sicking> rniwa: no. accessibility should still work with a different rendering
  242. # [03:29] <rniwa> esprehn: API on HTMLSelectElement wouldn't work because map isn't a select element.
  243. # [03:29] <esprehn> Yes it is
  244. # [03:29] <sicking> rniwa: i.e. a screenreader would still be able to tell the user that a checkbox is a checkbox and that it can be flipped, and let the user use voice commands to flip it, even if it's rendered as a switch
  245. # [03:29] <rniwa> sicking: how so? AT wouldn't know how to interact with the new UI.
  246. # [03:30] <esprehn> <select is=x-map> is indeed a select
  247. # [03:30] <rniwa> sicking: that is true although you can just use ARIA role for that.
  248. # [03:30] <sicking> rniwa: AT interacts with the DOM
  249. # [03:30] <rniwa> sicking: not really in webkit.
  250. # [03:30] <sicking> rniwa: AT should interact with the HTMLSelectElement even if there's a shadow DOM attached.
  251. # [03:31] <esprehn> Shadow dom just changes the presentation
  252. # [03:31] <sicking> yup
  253. # [03:31] <sicking> anyhow, time to head home
  254. # [03:31] <rniwa> sicking: night!
  255. # [03:32] <sicking> g'night!
  256. # [03:32] <esprehn> You create a renderblock instead of a renderselect, the select element API should continue working much like if the select was display none it continues working
  257. # [03:32] <sicking> rniwa: i think we agree on the central issue though. It seems too early to put these parts into CR
  258. # [03:32] <rniwa> sicking: yeah.
  259. # [03:33] <rniwa> esprehn: only if the implementation of map respected the changes made by that API and emulated the behavior
  260. # [03:33] <rniwa> esprehn: even then there are certain APIs that doesn't make any sense on maps
  261. # [03:34] <rniwa> e.g. what would changing "size" attribute mean on a map?
  262. # [03:34] <rniwa> or "multiple"
  263. # [03:34] <rniwa> would map respect "disabled" attribute?
  264. # [03:35] <rniwa> what if we added new attributes in the future like "disabled"?
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  324. # [06:25] <esprehn> rniwa: what does changing size mean on a multi select on the iphone?
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  326. # [06:25] <esprehn> rniwa: IIRC iOS shows only one option and shows a spinner in some native UI. The size attribute does nothing.
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  356. # [08:25] <marcosc> Hixie: any chance you could comment on this thread? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013OctDec/0725.html
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  358. # [08:26] <marcosc> if we have to use JSON for application metadata... should it be in a <script> or <meta>/<link>?
  359. # [08:27] <marcosc> putting JSON into an attribute just feels really wrong to me
  360. # [08:27] <marcosc> if anyone else has an opinion, would really like to hear it
  361. # [08:28] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@b255h073.ugent.be)
  362. # [08:28] <marcosc> Ms2ger: you're always full of kind things to say... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013OctDec/0725.html
  363. # [08:28] <Ms2ger> Meh, manifests
  364. # [08:30] <marcosc> Ms2ger: you know you love it
  365. # [08:31] <marcosc> hsivonen: if possible, would really appreciate any feedback on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013OctDec/0725.html
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  369. # [08:46] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: we have whines about late metas. we might not have whines about double metas
  370. # [08:47] <hsivonen> marcosc: I'll take a look
  371. # [08:47] <hsivonen> for those who are participants in the HTML WG but don't actually read the mail: there's now a poll where, contrary to the usual mode of operation, the Chairs are counting votes: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/polyglot-status-preference-poll/
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  373. # [08:49] <marcosc> hsivonen: thanks! really appreciate any feedback
  374. # [08:50] <Ms2ger> Oh wait
  375. # [08:50] <Ms2ger> It looks like this might actually be sent as a/xhtml+mxl
  376. # [08:50] <Ms2ger> xml, even
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  378. # [09:01] <hsivonen> marcosc: is there an explanation somewhere why the new manifest doesn't need to come as early in the page load as the old (Hixie-AppCache) manifest?
  379. # [09:02] <hsivonen> marcosc: my immediate feedback is: why aren't inline manifests, <link> and <meta> all too late?
  380. # [09:02] <marcosc> hsivonen: because you only need that stuff async... if you ever need it at all
  381. # [09:03] <marcosc> most people don't go to a website and bookmark it straight away
  382. # [09:03] <hsivonen> marcosc: so no part of the first page load ever goes through the NavigationController?
  383. # [09:04] <marcosc> hsivonen: no. there is no relationship between manifest and navcon
  384. # [09:04] <marcosc> not yet, anyway
  385. # [09:04] <hsivonen> I guess I need to read more about what this thing is before I comment further
  386. # [09:05] <marcosc> http://manifest.sysapps.org/
  387. # [09:05] <hsivonen> same as http://w3c.github.io/manifest/ apparently
  388. # [09:05] <marcosc> yep, same thing
  389. # [09:06] <marcosc> hsivonen: the long version is here http://w3c-webmob.github.io/installable-webapps/
  390. # [09:06] <marcosc> (not done yet... but tell the whole story)
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  392. # [09:07] <marcosc> hsivonen: section 3 is basically what we are trying to enable: http://w3c-webmob.github.io/installable-webapps/#add-to-homescreen
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  400. # [09:29] <Ms2ger> Lovely: https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=325330
  401. # [09:39] <rniwa> Ms2ger: hi Ms2ger!
  402. # [09:39] <rniwa> Ms2ger: lol
  403. # [09:39] <Ms2ger> I see you cc'd me on a bug :)
  404. # [09:39] <rniwa> Ms2ger: yeah
  405. # [09:39] <rniwa> Ms2ger: XML fragment parsing bug :(
  406. # [09:39] <rniwa> Ms2ger: it's such an edge case that I initially thought it's a bug in the test
  407. # [09:39] <rniwa> Ms2ger: but then Simon convinced me that it wasn't
  408. # [09:40] <Ms2ger> Dammit Simon :)
  409. # [09:40] <rniwa> Ms2ger: it's crazy I had to spend 2+ hours reading various parts of HTML5, DOM, & Parsing/Serialization specifications to figure it out
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  413. # [09:40] <Ms2ger> !
  414. # [09:40] <rniwa> Ms2ger: anyway, I was wondering if you could approve https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/456 ?
  415. # [09:41] <rniwa> MikeSmith: ^
  416. # [09:41] <rniwa> it's a pretty straight forward fix for xhtml files
  417. # [09:41] <Ms2ger> Sure
  418. # [09:41] <Ms2ger> Ugh, CRLF
  419. # [09:42] <rniwa> Ms2ger: are we supposed to always use LF there?
  420. # [09:43] <rniwa> Ms2ger: I was almost going to fix it but I wasn't sure if it was policy.
  421. # [09:43] <Ms2ger> Vague policy :)
  422. # [09:43] <Ms2ger> Anyway, merged
  423. # [09:43] <rniwa> Ms2ger: I need to start merging tests for your parsing & serialization spec
  424. # [09:43] <rniwa> so that we can give a meaningful feedback
  425. # [09:43] <rniwa> s/merging/importing/
  426. # [09:43] <Ms2ger> Yeah, I should probably put them into wpt
  427. # [09:44] <Ms2ger> Do you have a th.js test for that bug, btw?
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  429. # [09:44] <rniwa> Ms2ger: what do you mean by th.js test?
  430. # [09:44] <Ms2ger> One that uses testharness.js
  431. # [09:44] <rniwa> Ms2ger: oh no.
  432. # [09:45] <rniwa> Ms2ger: I had assumed it exists somewhere
  433. # [09:45] <rniwa> Ms2ger: and I was hoping that you could tell me where it might be :(
  434. # [09:45] <rniwa> Ms2ger: but I could write one up if you want
  435. # [09:45] <Ms2ger> There's some tests in the spec repo
  436. # [09:45] <Ms2ger> But not at all exhaustive :)
  437. # [09:45] <rniwa> Ms2ger: could you move it to https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/ ?
  438. # [09:46] * rniwa can merge such a PR
  439. # [09:46] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  440. # [09:46] <rniwa> Ms2ger: that's why...
  441. # [09:46] <rniwa> Ms2ger: I was looking for those tests in that repo
  442. # [09:46] <rniwa> but couldn't find it :(
  443. # [09:46] <Ms2ger> I'll get to it :)
  444. # [09:46] <rniwa> Ms2ger: great. thanks.
  445. # [09:47] <rniwa> now I can announce on webkit-dev that we're the first major browser engine to pass the W3C tests for template elements :D
  446. # [09:48] <Ms2ger> Are they all wrong? ;)
  447. # [09:48] <rniwa> Ms2ger: they're all good :D
  448. # [09:49] <rniwa> Ms2ger: in fact, i've been fixing all those tests because they had a bunch of bugs like the one you just merged
  449. # [09:49] <Ms2ger> That seems implausible :)
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  451. # [09:49] <Ms2ger> Unless you fixed them up first
  452. # [09:49] <rniwa> Ms2ger: I had to manually check each test case to make sure they're doing sensible things
  453. # [09:49] <rniwa> Ms2ger: you can check what i've done
  454. # [09:49] <Ms2ger> As always :)
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  456. # [09:50] <Ms2ger> I'd rather not be sucked into that stuff :)
  457. # [09:50] <rniwa> Ms2ger: yeah
  458. # [09:50] <rniwa> Ms2ger: you'd better spend that time writing more spec, test, or doing other more useful things
  459. # [09:50] <Ms2ger> Indeed
  460. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> rniwa: you still needs me to do anything?
  461. # [09:54] <rniwa> MikeSmith: nope. Ms2ger took care of it for me :D
  462. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> k
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  464. # [09:59] * rniwa is going to enable template element by default on all webkit ports
  465. # [09:59] <Ms2ger> rniwa, so I'll try to look at the bug tonight
  466. # [10:01] <hsivonen> marcosc: for the "what exists" overview, it might be worthwhile to investigate IE, too, since, IIRC, IE comes the closest to using the metadata elements from the HTML spec
  467. # [10:02] <marcosc> hsivonen: yes, I've done a little bit of research
  468. # [10:02] <marcosc> I'll make sure it gets added
  469. # [10:03] <marcosc> there is a lot of use of <meta name="application-name">
  470. # [10:03] <marcosc> I was impressed
  471. # [10:03] <marcosc> it's more popular than the apple equivalent
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  473. # Session Close: Wed Dec 04 10:07:35 2013
  474. #
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  476. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  480. # [10:17] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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  492. # [11:05] <zcorpan> annevk-cloud: what replaced "CORS-same-origin"?
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  495. # [11:06] <zcorpan> annevk-cloud: see http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom/#requirements-on-user-agents-implementing-the-xml-stylesheet-processing-instruction
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  506. # [12:05] <zcorpan> Hixie: is http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/delayed-image supposed to have an empty body?
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  514. # [12:59] <hsivonen> who operates web-sniffer.net and how does one report bugs to that person?
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  516. # [13:05] <annevk> hsivonen: use http://redbot.org/ instead?
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  532. # [13:42] <hsivonen> hmm. when reporting a WebKit security bug, most bugmail goes to @chromium.org
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  547. # [14:34] <philipj> jgraham, ping
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  566. # [15:04] <jgraham> philipj: Pong
  567. # [15:04] <Ms2ger> Did we hire philipj too?
  568. # [15:05] <jgraham> AFAIK no, he has just picked up bad irc habits from somewhere
  569. # [15:07] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@94.234.170.81) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  570. # [15:08] <Ms2ger> Oh, this isn't #ateam
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  573. # [15:09] <jgraham> No, it isn't
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  577. # [15:21] <zcorpan> annevk: what replaced "CORS-same-origin"?
  578. # [15:23] <hsivonen> marcosc: I sent an email to the manifest thread
  579. # [15:24] <annevk> zcorpan: the way it works now is that you get a response back and if you don't look behind the curtain (as some APIs such as <img> need to do) you can't really distinguish
  580. # [15:24] <annevk> zcorpan: I guess I should still have some kind of generic flag exposed so you can more easily determine whether to look behind the curtain
  581. # [15:25] <zcorpan> annevk: it's not obvious to me what i should say in cssom
  582. # [15:26] <annevk> zcorpan: I need more context
  583. # [15:27] <zcorpan> annevk: search for "cors-same-origin" in http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom/
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  587. # [15:28] <annevk> zcorpan: the first instance looks like a bug
  588. # [15:29] <annevk> zcorpan: and yeah, for the second instance we should probably have that kind of convenience flag
  589. # [15:30] <zcorpan> annevk: why is it a bug?
  590. # [15:30] <annevk> zcorpan: I think you only want to do that kind of thing for actual same-origin
  591. # [15:31] <annevk> zcorpan: not allow some kind of CORS opt-in to a quirk
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  595. # [15:33] <zcorpan> annevk: ok. how do i do that?
  596. # [15:37] <annevk> zcorpan: I guess you'd compare document's origin with request's origin
  597. # [15:37] <annevk> zcorpan: would prolly be cleaner if response had a URL and origin associated with it too
  598. # [15:37] <zcorpan> annevk: what if it redirects?
  599. # [15:37] <annevk> zcorpan: request's origin is updated
  600. # [15:38] <zcorpan> ah
  601. # [15:38] <annevk> zcorpan: so you'd compare after the fetch finalizes
  602. # [15:38] <annevk> zcorpan: it's not entirely clear to me how stable all of that is though
  603. # [15:38] <annevk> nobody has really given feedback yet whether this is the right abstraction for what's going on in a browser :/
  604. # [15:38] * jorendorff_away is now known as jorendorff
  605. # [15:39] <zcorpan> annevk: ok. i'm not that familiar with the code in this area
  606. # [15:41] <zcorpan> annevk: thanks
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  608. # [15:45] <tj_vantoll> Hi all, is it possible to respond to a mailing list thread from the digest email? I'm assuming that it's not but I wanted to check.
  609. # [15:46] <tj_vantoll> I'm basically wondering if there's a way to respond to a thread if I did not receive the actual email.
  610. # [15:46] <annevk> tj_vantoll: I think it's possible, but it's not super desirable as it breaks threading
  611. # [15:47] <annevk> tj_vantoll: if this is whatwg.org email, you can browse to the message in http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/ and then hit the first link (next to the author's name); that should open up your email client with the appropriate headers set
  612. # [15:48] <annevk> tj_vantoll: if it's w3.org email, you can do the same thing, but different
  613. # [15:48] <jgraham> In theory you could fix the threading headers by hand ofc
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  615. # [15:49] <tj_vantoll> annevk: It's a whatwg one. I had no idea that that link would do that.
  616. # [15:50] <tj_vantoll> I guess I'll give that a shot and see what happens. Thanks!
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  622. # [15:58] <sangwhan> Anyone know which spec was the first to introduce a redundant named color "grey" when there was already "gray"?
  623. # [15:58] <sangwhan> SVG seems suspicious, but not sure
  624. # [15:59] <annevk> sangwhan: I think that's a CSS thing
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  627. # [16:02] <SimonSapin> CSS blames SVG: http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-color/#svg-color
  628. # [16:03] <hsivonen> does Blink-Opera really not have a character encoding override menu?
  629. # [16:03] <hsivonen> hooray, if so!
  630. # [16:04] <sangwhan> hsivonen: not on the checkout/branch I have, but lemme check the nightly
  631. # [16:05] <sangwhan> SimonSapin: Yeah, and SVG doesn't quite blame anyone - but why would they do that is beyond me
  632. # [16:05] <SimonSapin> bikeshedding
  633. # [16:06] <jgraham> X11
  634. # [16:06] <jgraham> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X11_color_names
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  637. # [16:07] <annevk> Better add colour too
  638. # [16:07] <sangwhan> Copy the most impossible to use API on planet earth, well done :)
  639. # [16:07] <SimonSapin> Oh, we have a http://xkcd.com/978/
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  641. # [16:07] <sangwhan> Now time to implement background-colour
  642. # [16:08] <SimonSapin> W3C spec refers to wikipedia, which talks about what the W3C does
  643. # [16:08] <annevk> Do gray and grey serialize back in the same way?
  644. # [16:08] <annevk> That might require more bits than you'd want to give out
  645. # [16:08] <hsivonen> sangwhan: I sure hope Opera doesn't add that misfeature later
  646. # [16:08] <SimonSapin> I think colors serialize to #hex or rgb()
  647. # [16:09] <annevk> SimonSapin: even for specified style?
  648. # [16:09] <sangwhan> annevk: don't colors serialize to non-named?
  649. # [16:09] <annevk> sangwhan: well that's what I wanted them to do
  650. # [16:09] <sangwhan> one way to find out
  651. # [16:09] <annevk> but glazou made a lot of noise
  652. # [16:10] * jorendorff_away is now known as jorendorff
  653. # [16:10] <zewt> hsivonen: if not that's a bug, encoding override isn't an optional thing
  654. # [16:10] <zewt> at least for people who aren't in japan occasionally trying to view pages that are, heh
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  656. # [16:12] <annevk> SimonSapin: it'll prolly take a while for me to fix those URL bugs
  657. # [16:13] <SimonSapin> annevk: I know you’re busy
  658. # [16:13] <annevk> SimonSapin: yeah, these games don't play themselves
  659. # [16:14] <darobin> IIRC the grey/gray thing comes from an antique Netscape
  660. # [16:14] <darobin> it was supposed to make HTML easier to use for all authors
  661. # [16:14] * darobin glad they didn't push that localise in all languages...
  662. # [16:15] * odinho want grå, now!
  663. # [16:15] <darobin> or some story like that, I don't recall
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  665. # [16:15] <darobin> it's certainly stupid enough to be a Netscape feature
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  667. # [16:15] <sangwhan> Presto keeps it as grey and exposes that (but internally seems to use the raw color) and Blink seems to go whammo rgb() the moment it goes in
  668. # [16:15] <SimonSapin> spec says to serialize <color> with rgb() or rgba() http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom/#serialize-a-css-component-value
  669. # [16:15] <philipj> jgraham, I was going to ask about how to use assert_throws for exceptions which aren't DOMExceptions, but gave up instead
  670. # [16:16] <SimonSapin> Gecko, Blink and Presto do keywords: data:text/html,<body style=color:grEen><script>document.write(document.body.style.color)</script>
  671. # [16:16] <philipj> jgraham, the exception object thrown for "not enough arguments" doesn't have a code attribute
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  673. # [16:17] <hsivonen> zewt: what's the deal with this being more of a problem in Japan than in Russia even though there's a greater number of Cyrillic legacy encodings?
  674. # [16:17] <hsivonen> zewt: broken windows effect?
  675. # [16:17] <annevk> hsivonen: what about CESU-8 btw?
  676. # [16:17] <sangwhan> SimonSapin: my tests conflict with your results on blink, although TC is a bit different
  677. # [16:17] <annevk> hsivonen: include that too?
  678. # [16:17] <SimonSapin> sangwhan: what’s your test case?
  679. # [16:18] <jgraham> philipj: You should be able to pass in an instance of the exception type as the first argument
  680. # [16:18] <hsivonen> annevk: I couldn't figure out why CESU-8 would be dangerous
  681. # [16:18] <jgraham> e.g. assert_throws(new TypeError(), function() {throw new TypeError()}))
  682. # [16:18] <hsivonen> annevk: and for the BMP, it seems useful to get to read it as UTF-8
  683. # [16:19] <sangwhan> SimonSapin: document.querySelectorAll('body')[0].style.color='grey';alert(document.querySelectorAll('body')[0].style.color);
  684. # [16:19] <annevk> hsivonen: k
  685. # [16:19] * jorendorff is now known as jorendorff_away
  686. # [16:19] <annevk> makes sense
  687. # [16:20] <philipj> jgraham, thanks!
  688. # [16:20] <sangwhan> hsivonen: nightlies don't have it either, but i don't know if the feature will make a comeback or not. not in the desktop team.
  689. # [16:21] <SimonSapin> sangwhan: wonderful. Blink uses rgb() for grey, but a keyword for grey
  690. # [16:21] <SimonSapin> a keyword for gray*
  691. # [16:22] <annevk> hsivonen: for what's worth, I am worried that there's pages out there that rely on the EBDIC label being ignored
  692. # [16:22] <Ms2ger> darobin, I thought that was x11 legacy
  693. # [16:22] <hsivonen> annevk: possible :-(
  694. # [16:22] <Ms2ger> I read an interesting post about the history of x11 at some point
  695. # [16:22] <hsivonen> annevk: getting telemetry for everything is so slow :-(
  696. # [16:23] <darobin> Ms2ger: IIRC it wasn't in Mosaic, but maybe that's named colours in general? — I don't know, it's been a long time
  697. # [16:23] <hsivonen> annevk: wouldn't such pages break in IE, then, though?
  698. # [16:23] <Ms2ger> "From notes it also seems some people was happy about this because they always forgot if it was grey or gray"
  699. # [16:23] <sangwhan> New Opera not having the encoding menu, not sure how that flies in Asia where encoding on every other website is broken beyond recognition though
  700. # [16:23] <Ms2ger> http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/72919/what-are-the-origins-of-rgb-txt
  701. # [16:23] <annevk> hsivonen: fair point
  702. # [16:24] <annevk> hsivonen: if we only include the IE labels
  703. # [16:24] <sangwhan> SimonSapin: Hah, grey is different from gray? That's interesting
  704. # [16:24] <SimonSapin> that’s… I’m gonna go do something else now.
  705. # [16:25] <hsivonen> annevk: to serve the purpose of the mitigation, we should include all EBCDIC labels that ICU knows about
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  709. # [16:27] <sangwhan> http://cvsweb.xfree86.org/cvsweb/*checkout*/xc/programs/rgb/rgb.txt?rev=1.1 has too many shades of gray or grey, thank god that wasn't adopted...
  710. # [16:27] <Ms2ger> sangwhan, 50?
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  713. # [16:31] <sangwhan> Ms2ger: moar
  714. # [16:32] <sangwhan> Well, enough with this grey nonsense, I'll do a in memory swap to gray when I see grey from now on
  715. # [16:32] <jgraham> Ms2ger: 236 shades of gr[e|a]y
  716. # [16:32] <Ms2ger> Noooooooo
  717. # [16:33] <annevk> hsivonen: alright, I'll collect those and report the datasets in the bug
  718. # [16:33] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks!
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  722. # [16:41] <annevk> hsivonen: oh man, ICU is a disaster
  723. # [16:41] <annevk> hsivonen: try data:text/html;charset=ibm-17593,<script>alert(document.characterSet)</script> in Chrome
  724. # [16:41] <Ms2ger> Good thing that TC39 forced everyone to use it
  725. # [16:45] <annevk> # This is a special version of ibm-1140 that the XML4C (Xerces) parser team
  726. # [16:45] <annevk> # requested in 2000.
  727. # [16:45] <annevk> # It maps both EBCDIC LF and NL controls to Unicode LF U+000A.
  728. # [16:45] <karlcow> annevk, I have asked the person who reported the bug 304/CORS to give a more explicit code example and http sequence to explain how and when it fails.
  729. # [16:45] <annevk> karlcow: seems pretty clear no?
  730. # [16:45] <annevk> karlcow: sicking should've looked up the status code...
  731. # [16:47] <karlcow> I was surprised by sicking's answer ;)
  732. # [16:48] <annevk> hsivonen: ICU also supports labels such as ISO_2022,locale=ko,version=0
  733. # [16:48] <annevk> hsivonen: if we were to take it into account we would have to do much more it seems
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  735. # [16:52] <hsivonen> annevk: hmm. yeah, if that kind of labels get reflected to the Web, it's hopeless
  736. # [16:52] <hsivonen> annevk: I think that can't happen with ICU4J, though
  737. # [16:52] <hsivonen> annevk: I believe its label handling is what one would consider normal legacy
  738. # [16:53] <annevk> hsivonen: what is ICU4J and how do I get that data out of http://demo.icu-project.org/icu-bin/convexp ?
  739. # [16:53] <annevk> hsivonen: but see the Chrome example I gave earlier, it gives utf-8 for that
  740. # [16:53] <annevk> hsivonen: rather than iso-8859-1
  741. # [16:53] <hsivonen> annevk: yeah, that ibm-17593 thing is very, very sad
  742. # [16:54] <hsivonen> annevk: ICU4J is the Java version of ICU.
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  744. # [16:55] <annevk> hsivonen: okay, so that exposes a lot less labels and encodings
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  746. # [16:56] <annevk> hsivonen: but if that's safe :/
  747. # [16:57] <hsivonen> annevk: http://source.icu-project.org/repos/icu/icu4j/trunk/main/classes/charset/src/com/ibm/icu/charset/UConverterAliasDataReader.java gives a hint of what file to look for in the repo
  748. # [16:58] <annevk> hsivonen: the file is http://source.icu-project.org/repos/icu/icu/trunk/source/data/mappings/convrtrs.txt
  749. # [16:58] <annevk> hsivonen: which as you can see has many mappings for utf-8
  750. # [16:58] <hsivonen> ಠ_ಠ at Chrome just exposing ICU alias data to the Web
  751. # [16:58] <annevk> data:text/html;charset=windows-65001,<script>alert(document.characterSet)</script> is utf-8 too in Chrome
  752. # [16:59] <gsnedders> hsivonen: CESU-8 allows non-shortest-form null, no? So might break with some sanitizers…
  753. # [16:59] <hsivonen> not cool. bad Chrome.
  754. # [16:59] <hsivonen> gsnedders: oh. I didn't know that. I thought only Java "modified UTF-8" did that
  755. # [17:00] <annevk> where is jsbell
  756. # [17:00] <gsnedders> hsivonen: There was a reason for my "no?" at the end, I thought that was part of the CESU-8 too?
  757. # [17:00] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I could, of course, be wrong :)
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  759. # [17:01] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I am wrong.
  760. # [17:01] * idbentley_ is now known as idbentley
  761. # [17:01] <hsivonen> ok
  762. # [17:01] <annevk> gsnedders: "CESU-8 is similar to Java's Modified UTF-8 but does not have the special encoding of the NUL character (U+0000)."
  763. # [17:01] <gsnedders> I was just typing that.
  764. # [17:01] * Quits: idbentley (~idbentley@204.91.28.98) (Quit: Leaving)
  765. # [17:01] <gsnedders> (It is, notably, the only difference between the two)
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  770. # [17:09] <annevk> hsivonen: Safari does the same for ICU
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  780. # [17:19] <annevk> tj_vantoll: btw, if you have Gmail I recommend switching from digest and just using a filter
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  782. # [17:21] <annevk> hsivonen: filed bugs on Chrome and Safari
  783. # [17:21] <annevk> hsivonen: not entirely sure what to do for the replacement encoding now
  784. # [17:21] <tj_vantoll> annevk: I just did thanks.
  785. # [17:22] <Hixie> GPHemsley: thanks
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  789. # [17:25] <JonathanNeal> Mornin' (Pacific)
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  793. # [17:29] <Hixie> zcorpan: fixed
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  796. # [17:30] <Hixie> GPHemsley: btw, anne is right that we don't necessarily need to respond to everything. it's like the story of the new bar vs the old bar, where the old bar has a bunch of notices up for random stuff its customers have done over the years.
  797. # [17:30] <Hixie> GPHemsley: it may simply be better to live with the occasional person having trouble, and help them personally rather than with a notice
  798. # [17:30] * GPHemsley is not familiar with said story
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  801. # [17:31] <Hixie> marcosc: i'm unclear on what problem this is solving
  802. # [17:31] <annevk> GPHemsley: you go to the new bar because it has less bullshit bothering you
  803. # [17:32] <Hixie> GPHemsley: the old bar will have signs like "no backpacks on tables" because one day twenty years ago, some guy put his backpack on a bar and knocked a drink over, or whatever
  804. # [17:32] <Hixie> GPHemsley: which is a pointless sign really :-)
  805. # [17:33] * GPHemsley doesn't go to bars
  806. # [17:33] <Hixie> well me either
  807. # [17:33] <Hixie> but the point is just that there's a cost to putting signs up for every last thing
  808. # [17:33] <Hixie> (and people dont read long signs anyway)
  809. # [17:34] <GPHemsley> ok
  810. # [17:34] <GPHemsley> like I said, I'll revisit it later
  811. # [17:34] <Hixie> lgtm
  812. # [17:34] <Hixie> i'm not particularly worried about the notices myself
  813. # [17:34] <Hixie> just wanted to make sure the faq didn't scare people off :-)
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  816. # [17:35] <GPHemsley> I think the FAQ will scare people off with or without the notices :P
  817. # [17:35] <GPHemsley> it's humongous
  818. # [17:36] <Hixie> well, true
  819. # [17:36] <Hixie> but gotta give it a chance :-)
  820. # [17:36] <GPHemsley> were there any other pages that you wanted the notice removed from?
  821. # [17:37] <GPHemsley> (or, like I said, you can take care of it yourself)
  822. # [17:37] <Hixie> nah, i only send people to the faq :-)
  823. # [17:37] <GPHemsley> k
  824. # [17:38] <GPHemsley> annevk: In the meantime, you should now be able to set up a user style that removes the notice
  825. # [17:39] <Hixie> bbiab
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  827. # [17:44] <annevk> GPHemsley: thanks, but I try not to change my default setup
  828. # [17:44] <annevk> GPHemsley: makes it harder to reproduce bugs
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  830. # [17:45] <GPHemsley> very well
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  847. # [18:10] <Hixie> annevk: just logging in removes them too :_)
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  849. # [18:13] <annevk> Hixie: I'm in permanent private mode on my phone
  850. # [18:13] <annevk> Hixie: and also, I'm more concerned about other people than myself here, I can cope
  851. # [18:15] <Hixie> "permanent private mode"?
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  874. # [18:53] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  910. # [20:32] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: did you flesh out something with <picture>?
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  915. # [20:56] <zcorpan> hmm, the web component thread became emotional. maybe it needs ice cream
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  948. # [22:17] <annevk> zcorpan: actual ice cream or a metaphor?
  949. # [22:19] <zcorpan> 🍨
  950. # [22:20] <Ms2ger> Ice cream vas
  951. # [22:20] <Ms2ger> vans
  952. # [22:20] <annevk> "Your search - 🍨 - did not match any documents."
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  960. # [22:27] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: don't end up with people dead people of ice cream vans!
  961. # [22:27] <gsnedders> (Context: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow_Ice_Cream_Wars)
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  974. # [22:53] <zcorpan> annevk: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=🍨
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The end :)