/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-12-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Dec 10 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  7. # [00:05] <jgraham> Luckily for whom?
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  10. # [00:07] <Hixie> me
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  12. # [00:07] <Hixie> man, i had no idea keyboard focus was this complicated as it is
  13. # [00:08] <jgraham> That's not very community-spirited of you :p
  14. # [00:09] <Hixie> :-P
  15. # [00:10] <Hixie> seriously, nobody has a better word than "liege" for the object that manages focusables?
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  20. # [00:12] <jgraham> Isn't an object that manages usually called a "manager"?
  21. # [00:13] <Hixie> hm, i thought we already used that term
  22. # [00:13] <Hixie> but i guess not!
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  24. # [00:13] <Hixie> manager it is
  25. # [00:14] * jorendorff_away is now known as jorendorff
  26. # [00:15] <Hixie> i wish english had a term for "ancestor-or-self"
  27. # [00:17] <jgraham> Well there's something you have in common with the xpath folks
  28. # [00:17] <Hixie> and dom, yeah
  29. # [00:17] <Hixie> unlike both of those, however, i prefer to contort my english prose with redundancy rather than contort it with an invented term "ancestor-or-self" :-P
  30. # [00:22] <Hixie> what do you think of tabindex="group 1" as being a way to declare a tabindex scope? it wouldn't do anything except scope the tabindex of descendants
  31. # [00:22] <Hixie> context is https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23960
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  116. # [02:55] <Domenic_> If people at W3C members ask me who their AC rep is for TAG elections, where can I find that out?
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  118. # [03:00] <heycam> Domenic_, not sure where the canonical place to look is, but https://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/orgs lists organisations, and if you click on an org it will tell you which person is in the AC
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  121. # [03:03] <Domenic_> why does my w3c member account password never fucking work...
  122. # [03:05] <heycam> it's a member only page, if that matters
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  125. # [03:08] <Domenic_> yeah but i signed up as a member and was able to access the members area before... but every time i have to reset my password several times.
  126. # [03:10] <Domenic_> nope, won't let me log in, no matter how many times i reset my password.
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  130. # [03:12] <Domenic_> thanks though heycam. maybe support will email me back and i'll be able to do that then...
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  132. # [03:13] <heycam> hopefully the page should work for those people looking to bug their AC reps
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  134. # [03:13] <Domenic_> i can't even get to https://www.w3.org/Member/ right now.
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  161. # [04:58] <TabAtkins> Woo, finally got Bikeshed's install flow corrected.
  162. # [04:58] <TabAtkins> Nothing like having to completely reset your system for getting your project's installation flow correct.
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  194. # [07:27] <crocket> hi
  195. # [07:27] <crocket> I have an internet explorer question.
  196. # [07:27] <crocket> IE has MSSelection objects.
  197. # [07:27] <crocket> Does anyone know where to find a reference to MSSelection object?
  198. # [07:28] <crocket> If I invoke any method in MSSelection, IE10 says "800a025e error"
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  223. # [09:03] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: there's an XHTML validation case that others on the W3C team have told me they think the behavior runs against user expectations; which is, http://validator.nu/?doc=http://tantek.com/XHTML/Test/xhtmlwithoutprolog.xml
  224. # [09:04] <MikeSmith> the argument is that since that document has an XHTML1 Strict doctype and not a <!doctype html> doctype, it should by default be validated against the XHTML1 schema
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  226. # [09:05] <MikeSmith> instead of against the XHTML5 schema, as the current behavior causes it to be
  227. # [09:06] <MikeSmith> I see the reason for the current behavior is that for all docs served with an XML MIME type, the validator sniffs the root namespace to make a determination about which schema to use for validation -- before it every gets around to looking at the doctype
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  229. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> I think I can change the code to maybe have it skip the step of automatically using the XHTML5 if it finds the http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml namespace, but not sure whether you think that it should or whether the existing behavior is in fact actually better (from a user perspective)
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  250. # [10:00] <tantek> oh hello MikeSmith - wow someone found that old test case?
  251. # [10:01] <tantek> I'm not sure it has any relevance these days.
  252. # [10:02] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the validator behavior is intentional in this case, IIRC
  253. # [10:02] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: HTML5 allows legacy doctypes for entity ref compat
  254. # [10:02] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I'd like to keep this behavior
  255. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> tantek: it's one of the few xhtml documents on the Web that are actually served as xml
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  257. # [10:03] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: in general, we should move even more towards validating according to current specs unless the validator user asks for an old thing
  258. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: ok
  259. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah, that makes sense
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  272. # [10:50] <jgraham> annevk-cloud: Do you have time to look at https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/5fd7fd9b?review=368 ?
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  280. # [11:25] <zcorpan> hsivonen: do you mean we should do that for text/html also?
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  284. # [11:40] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I thought that was the plan, but we just haven't gotten around to it
  285. # [11:40] <zcorpan> hsivonen: ok. sounds good to me
  286. # [11:48] <zcorpan> is there a way to invoke http://www.whatwg.org/html#extracting-json without the user starting a drag operation?
  287. # [11:49] <zcorpan> there are no other xrefs, so i guess not :-|
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  289. # [11:53] <Ms2ger> OH: "how to use frameset in html5 .. I want to divide the page into parts so that the bottom of my page has a framset for menu and top frame has a marquee goin on .."
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  293. # [12:21] * hsivonen wonders where Ms2ger overhears conversations like that
  294. # [12:21] <Ms2ger> #html5
  295. # [12:21] <hsivonen> this template element stuff keeps turning up interesting cases that don't work according to someone's expectations
  296. # [12:22] <hsivonen> I hope this <template> feature actually ends up being useful
  297. # [12:24] <jgraham> Yeah, so the whole web components thing has turned into an enormous gamble
  298. # [12:24] <Ms2ger> I hope you don't mind if I don't put any money on it
  299. # [12:24] <jgraham> It is being built on shaky foundations
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  301. # [12:25] <jgraham> And if the whole thing collapses, we will be left building on top of the rubble for evermore
  302. # [12:25] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: yeah we should do it for text/html too. Like hsivonen said, I think that's been the plan. I think actually had I had been pushing for that before but somewhere between then and now I'd forgotten that's what we'd agreed on.
  303. # [12:26] <jgraham> (this is true of most things ofc, but this particular project feels more like trying to build a castle on sand, whereas usually we just build beach huts)
  304. # [12:28] <zcorpan> jgraham: or we make a new castle in 5 years
  305. # [12:30] <jgraham> zcorpan: Yeah, but partially on top of the ruins of a previous castle
  306. # [12:30] <jgraham> On the other hand, I guess that has historical precedent in real castles
  307. # [12:30] <jgraham> So maybe this was an ill-chosen metaphor
  308. # [12:31] * jgraham will now try to imagine the whole Web Components project as if it was an episode of Grand Designs
  309. # [12:31] <MikeSmith> "You have deprecated simplicity and ease in favour of complexity and difficulty. You wanted to create something more flexible but ended up causing trouble."
  310. # [12:31] <marcosc> so, I'm going to try playing this hand at the w3c: http://w3c.github.io/manifest/releases/FPWD.html
  311. # [12:31] <marcosc> too much?
  312. # [12:32] <marcosc> it's a FPWD
  313. # [12:32] <hsivonen> ridiculing the <center> post is as easy reaction, but centering in CSS is, indeed, much less obvious
  314. # [12:32] <hsivonen> s/as/an/
  315. # [12:33] <MikeSmith> I think there's a lot of wisdom in that post. At least a useful facsimile of wisdom.
  316. # [12:36] <zcorpan> marcosc: i think it's missing something, maybe something should be blinking
  317. # [12:36] <marcosc> good idea
  318. # [12:36] <jgraham> "you'll eventually have to create a policing department who's job is to oversee adherence to bureaucracy" - clearly marks him out as a nutter. I mean the policy police have existed for *years*.
  319. # [12:37] <MikeSmith> he's not a nutter for not knowing that the things he predicted already exist
  320. # [12:37] <MikeSmith> that makes him more of a .. prophet
  321. # [12:38] <jgraham> Well
  322. # [12:38] <marcosc> :)
  323. # [12:38] <jgraham> I could certainly get behind carving the bit you quoted in stone
  324. # [12:39] <zcorpan> it would be fun to actually carve the html spec in stone
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  331. # [12:39] <jgraham> Maybe erecting as a statue it at the offices of major vendors as a lesson in humility and the folly of designing for the 1% (e.g. for the Gmail team or framework authors only)
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  334. # [12:42] <MikeSmith> there's also the fact that the official whatwg theme song is "Whatever Happened To The Teenage Dream?" and that guy titled his message "What happened?"
  335. # [12:42] <MikeSmith> that seems more than coincidental
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  343. # [13:06] <smaug____> hayato_: would be nice to get that shadow dom event propagation issue fixed (before implementation lands to Gecko)
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  345. # [13:22] <smaug____> hmm, when will I have time to read the stream API proposal
  346. # [13:22] <smaug____> it looks mostly wrong
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  348. # [13:26] <jgraham> smaug____: Which one?
  349. # [13:26] <smaug____> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/streams-api/raw-file/tip/Overview.htm
  350. # [13:27] <smaug____> mostly wrong == I don't like it :)
  351. # [13:29] <smaug____> using events for streams tend to make APIs simpler
  352. # [13:29] <smaug____> Promises are better for things which happen once
  353. # [13:30] <jgraham> There is a second propossl
  354. # [13:30] <jgraham> https://github.com/whatwg/streams
  355. # [13:31] <marcosc> smaug____: can you please send that feedback to public-webapps
  356. # [13:32] <marcosc> we are trying to get the two proposals to merge
  357. # [13:32] <smaug____> I need to find time to write something...
  358. # [13:33] <smaug____> some kind of dummy proposal
  359. # [13:33] <smaug____> based on events
  360. # [13:33] <smaug____> promises are hip and all, but that doesn't mean they should be used for everything
  361. # [13:35] <marcosc> BLAAASSPPHEEEMMYYY!!!! next you will be saying that ServiceWorkers are not going to cure cancer! PFFF
  362. # [13:36] <smaug____> :)
  363. # [13:36] <smaug____> ServiceWorkers might be something cool but still haven't seen a spec
  364. # [13:37] <marcosc> you must have faith in ServiceWorkers. You need to find your own inner/personal ServiceWorker.
  365. # [13:37] <marcosc> Only then will you be "offline"
  366. # [13:38] * marcosc hummmmmsss.... service service service worker... hummmmmm
  367. # [13:38] * smaug____ tries hard. Offline for lunch.
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  383. # [14:09] <zcorpan> Hixie: about EventSource/Worker/SharedWorker using utf-8 query encoding, it occurred to me that XHR already uses utf-8. gecko uses utf-8 for EventSource. presto uses utf-8 for all of these
  384. # [14:09] <zcorpan> Hixie: while blink seems to use the document's encoding for all (including XHR)
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  388. # [14:14] <zcorpan> marcosc: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GP9k1pn9Mo0
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  390. # [14:18] <annevk> Ms2ger: next time please make the change yourself
  391. # [14:18] <annevk> Ms2ger: generating 3 tweets for removing "in" is somewhat annoying
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  393. # [14:24] <hayato_> smaug___: I left a comment on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23887. We need a counter example.
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  418. # [15:16] <annevk> Hixie: ancestor-or-self -> inclusive ancestor
  419. # [15:16] <annevk> Hixie: DOM uses and defines that
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  422. # [15:17] * annevk finally gets to a message from jgraham this morning
  423. # [15:20] <annevk> jgraham: reviewed
  424. # [15:20] <jgraham> annevk: Thanks!
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  445. # [16:15] <annevk> What the fuck? DOM Parsing just got published over objections?
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  448. # [16:17] <Ms2ger> As expected
  449. # [16:17] <Ms2ger> We should probably leave the WG
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  454. # [16:35] <annevk> I'm not in the WG
  455. # [16:35] <annevk> I'm only on the TAG
  456. # [16:36] <Ms2ger> Well, Mozilla is
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  459. # [16:37] <jgraham> Since webapps is probably the most productive group at W3C, leaving would be a bit controversial, I would think
  460. # [16:37] <jgraham> Even though crazy stuff sometimes happens
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  474. # [17:16] <tyoshino> smaug___: something like WebSocket's onmessage?
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  476. # [17:16] <smaug____> tyoshino: ?
  477. # [17:16] * Joins: seventh (seventh@31.6.53.178)
  478. # [17:16] <tyoshino> re: Streams
  479. # [17:16] <smaug____> ah, right
  480. # [17:16] <smaug____> so yes, something like that
  481. # [17:17] <smaug____> basically that one doesn't need to add the callback all the time to read data
  482. # [17:17] <tyoshino> i'm a co-author of https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/streams-api/raw-file/tip/Overview.htm
  483. # [17:17] <smaug____> with events one just adds an event listener
  484. # [17:17] <smaug____> with promises one needs to get a promise
  485. # [17:17] <smaug____> and implementation needs to buffer data
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  487. # [17:18] <Domenic_> smaug____: events have proven pretty problematic in Node
  488. # [17:18] <Domenic_> you lose data
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  490. # [17:18] <smaug____> eh
  491. # [17:18] <Domenic_> also, of course, the usual problem where anyone can trigger the event
  492. # [17:19] <Domenic_> which will mess up any consumers as they get an inconsistent view from the streams internal state machine vs. the random event being triggered
  493. # [17:19] <smaug____> random?
  494. # [17:19] <smaug____> if you're the only one who has access to the Stream object, no one else can trigger events
  495. # [17:19] <smaug____> and there is always event.isTrusted
  496. # [17:19] <Domenic_> sure, but then it's a pretty useless stream object
  497. # [17:22] <smaug____> promise based is hard for more than one consumer
  498. # [17:22] <Domenic_> promise-based is generally a dead-end
  499. # [17:22] <Domenic_> although i am not sure multi-consumer would be my concern
  500. # [17:23] <Domenic_> but i see what you mean in the sense that it's very convenient for naive cases involving one consumer and one producer, and very bad for realistic cases of pipe chains and graphs.
  501. # [17:24] <Domenic_> i feel like some kind of generator of promises or similar might work well as a reactive observable, not sure... but definitely not for I/O streams.
  502. # [17:26] <smaug____> what is wrong with events?
  503. # [17:26] <Domenic_> the data loss problem is a huge one
  504. # [17:26] <smaug____> developers know events usually quite well, and the fit in to stream handling rather well
  505. # [17:26] <smaug____> what data loss
  506. # [17:26] <Domenic_> https://github.com/whatwg/streams/blob/master/Requirements.md#you-must-not-lose-data
  507. # [17:27] <smaug____> Domenic_: sounds like a bug in the API user
  508. # [17:28] <Domenic_> it was a huge footgun in node
  509. # [17:28] <Domenic_> of the kind that is easily avoided
  510. # [17:28] <smaug____> if the API is event based, it is up to the API user to buffer the data, if needed
  511. # [17:28] <Domenic_> right
  512. # [17:28] <Domenic_> which is really annoying
  513. # [17:28] <smaug____> how so
  514. # [17:28] <Domenic_> almost unusably annoying
  515. # [17:28] <smaug____> in normal cases it isn't needed
  516. # [17:28] <Domenic_> because buffering logic is very hard to get right
  517. # [17:28] <Domenic_> especially if you want to use that buffering to inform backpressure
  518. # [17:28] <smaug____> usually you just get the data and process it immediately
  519. # [17:29] <Domenic_> that is pretty rarely true in the Node ecosystem's experience
  520. # [17:29] <Domenic_> async processing is extremely common
  521. # [17:29] <smaug____> without that you easily force implementations to buffer data
  522. # [17:29] <Domenic_> as is piping to data sources of varying speed
  523. # [17:29] <smaug____> and effectively cause memleaks
  524. # [17:29] <Domenic_> e.g. reading from disk, piping to TCP socket
  525. # [17:29] <Domenic_> it's not a memleak to hold data in memory until the TCP socket tells you it's ready to accept more data
  526. # [17:30] <smaug____> but if you don't accept that data, implementation is forced to keep the mem around
  527. # [17:30] <smaug____> events force application to decide what to do with the API
  528. # [17:30] <smaug____> and there is no data loss
  529. # [17:30] <Domenic_> events force applications to build real streams on top of them
  530. # [17:30] * smaug____ doesn't understand this data loss argument at all
  531. # [17:31] <Domenic_> streams which are usually much more leaky than a well-implemented buffering and backpressure-aware stream
  532. # [17:31] <Domenic_> the number of flat-out buggy implementations of BufferedStream in the Node ecosystem pre-0.6 was staggering.
  533. # [17:31] <Domenic_> it was our second-biggest problem implementing a node API two years ago.
  534. # [17:32] <Domenic_> rolling that logic into core was one of the best decisions node made.
  535. # [17:33] <Domenic_> events are convenient for certain use cases
  536. # [17:33] <smaug____> events are good for stream like cases
  537. # [17:33] <Domenic_> i would say streams will be consumed 80% of the time with pipe, 15% of the time with events (e.g. passive data listening), and 5% of the time directly
  538. # [17:33] <smaug____> input events from user form a stream
  539. # [17:34] <Domenic_> https://github.com/whatwg/streams/blob/master/Requirements.md#you-must-have-a-way-of-passively-watching-data-pass-through-a-stream
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  542. # [17:36] * smaug____ tries to understand https://github.com/whatwg/streams
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  544. # [17:36] <smaug____> looks like it might be ok for server side
  545. # [17:37] <Domenic_> smaug____: would love to understand what you see different about server vs. client side
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  547. # [17:37] <smaug____> if I read https://github.com/whatwg/streams correctly (looking at the examples), it has some sync processing
  548. # [17:38] <smaug____> while (readable.readableState === "readable") { and such
  549. # [17:38] <Domenic_> right, because data is often available from I/O sources synchronously. (Very often, in fact.)
  550. # [17:38] <annevk> reply from chaals on public-webapps o_O
  551. # [17:38] <smaug____> but for the Web we can't bring such APIs
  552. # [17:38] <Domenic_> https://github.com/whatwg/streams/blob/master/Requirements.md#you-must-not-force-an-asynchronous-reading-api-upon-users
  553. # [17:38] <Domenic_> smaug____: why not?
  554. # [17:38] <smaug____> eh
  555. # [17:39] <smaug____> sync APIs are from hell
  556. # [17:39] <Domenic_> that's not true
  557. # [17:39] <tyoshino> blocking API is bad, but this is not.
  558. # [17:39] <Domenic_> right, blocking vs. sync is the right distinction.
  559. # [17:39] <Domenic_> this is not blocking
  560. # [17:39] <smaug____> aha
  561. # [17:39] <smaug____> well, so it is not sync
  562. # [17:39] <tyoshino> WHATWG Streams returns data only when data is available for reading synchronously
  563. # [17:39] <Domenic_> while loops are scary that way
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  565. # [17:40] <tyoshino> doesn't wait
  566. # [17:40] <smaug____> it is just reading the buffered sutff
  567. # [17:40] <tyoshino> it makes some sense
  568. # [17:40] <Domenic_> i agree at first glance while loops make people think "eek i'm gonna lock the browser"
  569. # [17:40] <tyoshino> yes
  570. # [17:40] <smaug____> ok, so it is just like having event.data
  571. # [17:40] <Domenic_> but usually the loop will only happen for two or three iterations
  572. # [17:40] <Domenic_> (numbers pulled out of hat)
  573. # [17:40] <smaug____> but ok, I should skip that loop
  574. # [17:41] <Domenic_> let me open an issue to explain that better
  575. # [17:42] <Domenic_> smaug____: are you on GitHub?
  576. # [17:42] <smaug____> no
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  578. # [17:43] <smaug____> for reading data events should still make api usage simpler
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  580. # [17:45] <tyoshino> i understand cumbersomeness of callback setting every time. but it's kind of smart way to use a Promise for telling the producer that we (consumer) are ready.
  581. # [17:45] <Domenic_> I agree, although I think that use case is pretty small. Thus ReadableStreamWatcher and WritableStreamWatcher.
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  583. # [17:45] <Domenic_> i have used stream events mainly for progress notification.
  584. # [17:46] <Domenic_> other people tell me they use it for logging
  585. # [17:46] <smaug____> tyoshino: but if you forget to set the callback, implementation is forced to buffer all the data
  586. # [17:46] <smaug____> and if you happen to keep the stream object alive, you buffer forever
  587. # [17:46] <smaug____> (web apps are good at accidentally keeping objects alive)
  588. # [17:46] <Domenic_> if nobody reads, backpressure is applied
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  590. # [17:47] <Domenic_> (but yes, the already-buffered data is still there.)
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  593. # [17:47] <tyoshino> back pressure tells the producer not to work. there are some producers like WebSocket which doesn't understand backpressure
  594. # [17:48] <smaug____> yes
  595. # [17:48] <smaug____> so what happens when data is sent from the server
  596. # [17:48] <Domenic_> yeah, so you will be unable to wrap WebSocket in a stream yourself with backpressure support
  597. # [17:48] <smaug____> stream needs to buffer forever?
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  600. # [17:48] <Domenic_> but WebSocketStream itself should support backpressure
  601. # [17:49] <smaug____> with events we don't have similar problem
  602. # [17:49] <smaug____> it is up to the application to decide what to do with the data
  603. # [17:49] <Domenic_> but with events you haven't really solved any problems
  604. # [17:49] <tyoshino> event delivery can also be queued
  605. # [17:49] <Domenic_> you have just forced the API user to solve the problem themselves
  606. # [17:49] <tyoshino> so, the situation is not so different between them
  607. # [17:49] <Domenic_> tyoshino: interesting, how so?
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  609. # [17:50] <tyoshino> i mean, that even with event
  610. # [17:50] <smaug____> tyoshino: events will be handled when event loop spins
  611. # [17:50] <tyoshino> data can be queued forever if the loop is busy
  612. # [17:50] <annevk> Domenic_: you could argue that forcing the API user to solve the problem is a lower-level primitive ;)
  613. # [17:50] <Domenic_> annevk: yeah, I did have that thought :)
  614. # [17:50] <smaug____> well, events will be dispatched when event loop spins
  615. # [17:50] <Domenic_> annevk: but I think we already have EventTarget
  616. # [17:50] <smaug____> tyoshino: loop is busy doing what?
  617. # [17:51] <smaug____> that is not a realistic case
  618. # [17:52] <tyoshino> in event case
  619. # [17:52] <tyoshino> data arrival speed vs. event handler processing speed
  620. # [17:52] <tyoshino> Promises:
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  622. # [17:53] <tyoshino> data arrival speed vs. read() invocation speed
  623. # [17:53] <smaug____> in event case the data is still in the event waiting for to be processed. promise case just needs to buffer it all and hope that someone will process the data
  624. # [17:55] <tyoshino> you just need to keep read() (and waitForReadable in WHATWG ver) called
  625. # [17:56] <smaug____> but you must read all the time
  626. # [17:56] <smaug____> but if you don't, buffer just increases and increases
  627. # [17:56] <tyoshino> yes. but even for event, if the app is not fast enough compared to data delivery
  628. # [17:56] <smaug____> with events the dispatch is there whether or not you have listeners
  629. # [17:57] <tyoshino> the app needs to drop data or keep the event loop waiting until the handler process the delivered data
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  631. # [17:57] <tyoshino> that's what i meant by "busy"
  632. # [17:58] <tyoshino> drop data is done by "noop in handler" or "no handler"
  633. # [17:58] <smaug____> tyoshino: in event case if app can't process data fast enough, it can just cache it if needed
  634. # [17:58] <smaug____> but the data isn't buffered anywhere magically
  635. # [17:59] <Domenic_> there's nothing magic about the data buffering
  636. # [17:59] <Domenic_> the algorithm is very transparent
  637. # [17:59] <tyoshino> you are concerned about implicitness of buffering?
  638. # [17:59] <smaug____> web devs don't read specs
  639. # [17:59] <smaug____> tyoshino: yes
  640. # [17:59] <Domenic_> streams are largely *about* buffering
  641. # [17:59] <Domenic_> otherwise just use event emitters
  642. # [17:59] <smaug____> web apps tend to keep random objects alive longer than needed
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  644. # [18:00] <tyoshino> once everything is rebuilt to respect backpressure, it would be fine. but yes, i understand your concern
  645. # [18:01] <tyoshino> but as Domenic said, we're introducing a buffer
  646. # [18:01] <tyoshino> convenient buffer
  647. # [18:01] <smaug____> a buffer sure, but not with unlimited size
  648. # [18:02] <smaug____> buffer would be the size of .data in an event
  649. # [18:02] <smaug____> and sure, there can be several events alive simultaneously
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  651. # [18:03] <tyoshino> there should be kinda consumption pressure to reader?
  652. # [18:04] <tyoshino> thinking
  653. # [18:05] <Domenic_> i don't think such limits really make sense for ambitious web applications.
  654. # [18:05] <Domenic_> we can't pretend to be a real platform if we withhold tools from programmers for fear of them hurting themselves
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  656. # [18:05] <Domenic_> people will just have to build an unlimited real stream on top of the limited one.
  657. # [18:07] <smaug____> it is not fear, but an issue which has come up often
  658. # [18:07] <smaug____> web apps keeping objects alive longer than needed. Google Reader was the best app to leak everything.
  659. # [18:08] <smaug____> Facebook used to leak tons of stuff until few weeks ago
  660. # [18:08] <smaug____> (well, that was some new feature which introduced such leak. but it was there for months )
  661. # [18:09] <Domenic_> i guess this seems like a larger issue and i am not really sure of the general sentiment regarding it
  662. # [18:09] <Domenic_> of giving web developers the power to allocate memory
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  664. # [18:09] <Domenic_> but i am for such capabilities, msyelf
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  668. # [18:13] <tyoshino> filed a bug to think about it more
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  670. # [18:14] <jgraham> Well of course web developers can allocate memory already
  671. # [18:14] <jgraham> The situation we want to avoid is one where it is easy to create a leak by accident
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  673. # [18:15] <jgraham> Which is distressingly common already
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  675. # [18:15] <jgraham> (not that I have a particular opinion on how this relates to stream APIs)
  676. # [18:16] <jgraham> (see the discussion about moving DOM nodes between documents for an example of where the design of the platform makes accidential leaks of large objects easy)
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  683. # [18:25] <annevk> "design"
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  688. # [18:33] <jgraham> annevk: I didn't say "intelligent design"
  689. # [18:35] <annevk> that's biology, oh wait
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  695. # [18:56] <Hixie> jgraham: we tried building a castle on concrete, but people didn't want to buy into the whole thing at once (xbl2). at least people are implementing the piecemeal castle.
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  697. # [18:57] <Ms2ger> Or implementing something
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  703. # [19:19] <annevk> Hixie: by concrete you mean XML? :P
  704. # [19:19] <Hixie> not just XML, but yes
  705. # [19:19] <Hixie> (remember, xbl2 predates xhtml2)
  706. # [19:20] <Hixie> but i think that is one of the big differences
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  708. # [19:20] <Hixie> i mean, basing web comp on html is what led to hsivonen's comments which led to this conversation :-)
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  725. # [19:54] <Hixie> TabAtkins: you around? (i might need new selectors)
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  742. # [20:51] <Hixie> ok i posted a big proposal for how to do keyboard focus to https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23475
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  747. # [21:11] <hober> polyglot rec v. note poll closes today, and is currently 18 rec v. 11 note: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/polyglot-status-preference-poll/
  748. # [21:13] <Ms2ger> And 351 abstain
  749. # [21:14] <hober> indeed :)
  750. # [21:14] * Ms2ger feels sad he wasted a minute of his life looking at that
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  759. # [21:41] <Domenic_> soooo is there a way for people who aren't members of w3c organizations to see who the w3c members' AC reps are?
  760. # [21:46] <Ms2ger> Maybe https://www.w3.org/services/list-audit/query?queryList=w3c-ac-forum
  761. # [21:49] <Domenic_> nope, 401
  762. # [21:49] <Ms2ger> Oh, I thought that was public
  763. # [21:53] <Ms2ger> Looks like the official list is [MO] https://www.w3.org/Member/ACList
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  768. # [21:57] <Domenic_> good times
  769. # [21:59] <tantek> henri, MikeSmith, and similarly for adding new rel values to http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values#HTML5_link_type_extensions ? (e.g. rel=syndication was added 2013-04-25 and seems to produce an error in both validator.nu and validator.w3.org)
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  798. # [22:53] <zcorpan> i like Hixie's comment on the poll
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  803. # [23:04] <zewt> grr cors
  804. # [23:04] <zewt> "Wildcards cannot be used in the 'Access-Control-Allow-Origin' header when the credentials flag is true."
  805. # [23:05] <zewt> and some script is setting credentials to work around some browser bug (even though there are no credentials), so now I have to jump hoops on the server side
  806. # [23:06] <Hixie> zcorpan: unfortunately looks like the wg will be wasting lots more time on this, given the way the vote is going
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  808. # [23:07] <jgraham> I wonder if I should change my comment to "I think polls are a stupid way to make technical decisions, as is clearly demonstrated by the organisation-level block voting which will determine the outcome of this poll"
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  810. # [23:07] <jgraham> It won't make any difference of course
  811. # [23:08] <zcorpan> is yucca just trolling or am i missing something?
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  813. # [23:11] <Domenic_> ^ i too find this confusing
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  827. # [23:37] <Hixie> it's the respect that i get from my fellow editors, as shown in https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=946370#c8, that really makes me love the w3c
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  829. # [23:40] <SteveF> hixie: reap what you sow big fella
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  832. # [23:46] <Hixie> lol
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  835. # [23:51] <Hixie> i like the dichotomy of the dismissive tone in that bug comment where he implies it wouldn't work, and the accusatory tone in his tweet where he implies its so good it ends anonymity
  836. # [23:51] <Hixie> it's, rather
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  839. # [23:58] <hober> it's weird that msft are voting yes in a block on that poll
  840. # [23:59] <Hixie> in a block? i thought you only got one vote per organisation
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  843. # Session Close: Wed Dec 11 00:00:00 2013

The end :)