/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-12-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Dec 17 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:00] <annevk> not a big fan of how Hixie deals with URLs
  5. # [00:00] <annevk> hmm
  6. # [00:01] * annevk files https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24119
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  8. # [00:02] * Hixie isn't a big fan of it either
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  10. # [00:05] <annevk> Sorry, no concrete suggestions yet
  11. # [00:05] <Hixie> did the parse error thing change?
  12. # [00:05] <annevk> Maybe in half a decade or so
  13. # [00:05] <Hixie> i seem to recall asking you about it when i wrote it
  14. # [00:05] <annevk> No, that's always been this way
  15. # [00:06] <Hixie> huh
  16. # [00:06] <Hixie> k
  17. # [00:06] <Hixie> btw you should say in the paragraph that dfns "URL parser" that it could return failure
  18. # [00:07] <zcorpan> annevk: btw some things don't use utf-8 that maybe could, like workers, EventSource
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  20. # [00:07] <zcorpan> i also noticed that blink doesn't do XMLDocument#load
  21. # [00:08] <annevk> you mean new Worker?
  22. # [00:08] <zcorpan> right
  23. # [00:08] <annevk> workers themselves should already be utf-8-only
  24. # [00:08] <Hixie> (fixed, btw)
  25. # [00:08] <annevk> ta
  26. # [00:08] <Hixie> annevk: any idea on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23892 ?
  27. # [00:08] <annevk> Hixie: I would not expect me to convince TC39 anytime soon
  28. # [00:09] <annevk> Hixie: the way they operate would make it largely my task to get the work done since nobody else is really keen on doing it
  29. # [00:09] <annevk> Hixie: and given other issues I can't say it's much of a priority
  30. # [00:09] <zcorpan> annevk: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23822 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23823
  31. # [00:10] <annevk> Whereas I think getting Map/Set support there would be good
  32. # [00:11] <annevk> zcorpan: the output of http://damowmow.com/playground/tests/urls/001.html is weird
  33. # [00:11] <annevk> zcorpan: in Gecko anyway
  34. # [00:11] <annevk> zcorpan: seems buggy for ws:
  35. # [00:11] <Hixie> annevk: should i just define it in HTML then?
  36. # [00:12] <annevk> Hixie: I guess for now :/
  37. # [00:12] <Hixie> k
  38. # [00:12] <Hixie> any idea what it should say?
  39. # [00:12] <zcorpan> annevk: ws.url in gecko just returns what was passed to teh constructor
  40. # [00:12] <annevk> ouch
  41. # [00:13] <annevk> Hixie: I think you create a new Map and then copy [[MapData]] or some such
  42. # [00:13] <annevk> Hixie: prolly similar for Set
  43. # [00:13] <Hixie> k
  44. # [00:13] <annevk> Hixie: [[SetData]]
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  47. # [00:14] <zcorpan> annevk: the smile isn't encode-able in the document's encoding so gecko uses utf-8 while blink uses the <form> way and i guess IE would replace it with a ? and the spec requires %3F
  48. # [00:14] <zcorpan> iirc
  49. # [00:14] <hober> Hixie annevk: note https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=120654
  50. # [00:15] <annevk> omg no prefix used by olliej
  51. # [00:15] <annevk> (see #jslang for context)
  52. # [00:15] <annevk> (see also es-discuss for context)
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  55. # [00:16] <annevk> zcorpan: hmm
  56. # [00:16] <Hixie> hober: thanks
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  58. # [00:20] <annevk> zcorpan: yeah, need to look at that shit again at some point and see if we can always use the <form> way rather than the <form> way and ?
  59. # [00:20] <annevk> zcorpan: I reopened the bugs on the grounds that encoding override is for certain legacy APIs only, not even XMLHttpRequest uses it
  60. # [00:20] <zcorpan> annevk: ok
  61. # [00:20] <Hixie> boo, giving me more work
  62. # [00:21] <Hixie> doesn't this all mean that if you take a <Script src=""> and stick it into new Worker() you'll get a different URL?
  63. # [00:21] <Hixie> that seems bad
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  65. # [00:23] <annevk> not using utf-8 is bad
  66. # [00:23] <Hixie> zcorpan: i fixed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24088 (script error in worker); let me know if it's not compatible enough
  67. # [00:23] <zcorpan> you usually can't take an existing .js file and stick it into new Worker anyway
  68. # [00:23] <annevk> especially not if it's not utf-8
  69. # [00:23] <Hixie> (not that i can really see how someone would be depending on a worker failing to run in a particular way, but you never know)
  70. # [00:24] <annevk> I think the problem is that currently you need to override to use utf-8 with your setup
  71. # [00:24] <annevk> whereas that could have been the default
  72. # [00:24] <annevk> and therefore less work
  73. # [00:25] <zcorpan> Hixie: LGTM, thanks
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  76. # [00:27] <Hixie> dglazkov: ping https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24106
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  78. # [00:28] <Hixie> annevk: so i don't really understand why we'd want one place to not do this when literally dozens of other places in HTML do do it
  79. # [00:29] <Hixie> annevk: i understand that we don't like it, but being inconsistent seems far worse than having this sketchy behaviour
  80. # [00:29] <annevk> we are already inconsistent
  81. # [00:29] <annevk> and every new API should not do it
  82. # [00:29] <Hixie> why?
  83. # [00:30] <annevk> meaning there's a few exceptions in the end, such as <a> and location
  84. # [00:30] <Hixie> it's not a "few exceptions"
  85. # [00:30] <Hixie> there's literally dozens of them
  86. # [00:30] <Hixie> just in HTML
  87. # [00:30] <annevk> there's nothing outside of HTML that needs this; note that this is only about the query parameter
  88. # [00:30] <annevk> and only if you're not using utf-8 or utf-16
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  90. # [00:31] <annevk> as I explained in an email somewhere it's already a very large footgun to not use utf-8
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  93. # [00:32] <annevk> on top of all that the query parameter handling is a bug and inconsistent with how URLs are used elsewhere, and given that we're already inconsistent I don't see a reason to propagate it further
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  96. # [00:33] <annevk> if all our APIs did this, mkay, but XMLHttpRequest does not, CSS does not, SVG does not
  97. # [00:33] <annevk> so making the query encoding override thing the exception is better, because it means we have less places in the long to test for this weirdness
  98. # [00:33] <Hixie> html. base. link. style. script. a href="" and ping="". cite="". img src and srcset. iframe. frame. embed. object. applet. video. track. source. src="" on <input type=image>, icon="". microdata's use of the aforementioned. window.open. location.*. pushState() and replaceState(). showModalDialog(). register*Handler(). external.AddSearchProvider(). drag and drop's use of some of the aforementioned.
  99. # [00:34] <Hixie> that's just the ones i could find in the HTML spec, i'm sure i missed some.
  100. # [00:35] <Hixie> video poster=""
  101. # [00:35] <Hixie> audio.
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  105. # [00:36] <zcorpan> hmm i haven't tested window.open, location, pushState, replaceState
  106. # [00:36] <Hixie> WebSocket is a new protocol, so using UTF-8 there makes sense. CSS is a separate language, so using UTF-8 there makes sense (is that really implemented?). SVG does everything different anyway (and does it really do this differently?).
  107. # [00:36] <Hixie> and similarly inside Workers it makes sense to say the context is utf-8.
  108. # [00:37] <Hixie> but the others, i don't see why we'd be inconsistent.
  109. # [00:37] <Hixie> e.g. EventSource and Worker constructors.
  110. # [00:37] <annevk> I would expect those to work similar to XHR
  111. # [00:37] <Hixie> yeah, XHR being different makes no sense to me
  112. # [00:38] <annevk> also, many of the new contexts above could use utf-8
  113. # [00:38] <Hixie> i think inconsistency is far more of a problem than poor design decisions
  114. # [00:39] <Hixie> with a consistent quirky interface, you learn the quirk and then you laugh about it while working around it
  115. # [00:39] <Hixie> with an inconsistent interface, you spend all your time cursing that you can never guess what's going to happen
  116. # [00:40] <annevk> that's what happens when you don't use utf-8
  117. # [00:40] <annevk> not just for urls
  118. # [00:40] <annevk> i don't really see the big deal, non-utf-8 is already broken
  119. # [00:41] <Hixie> indeed, i don't really see the big deal either, non-utf-8 is already broken :-)
  120. # [00:42] <Hixie> so let's at least keep it consistent :-)
  121. # [00:43] <annevk> it's already not consistent and given we'll forever add more APIs that take URLs, it seems better to keep it contained
  122. # [00:43] <annevk> about consistent quirks...
  123. # [00:43] <annevk> <script id=x>w(document.querySelector("#X") !== document.getElementById("X"))</script>
  124. # [00:43] <zcorpan> blink uses document's encoding for XHR. gecko uses utf-8 for EventSource
  125. # [00:44] <Hixie> annevk: "contained" = "inconsistent". it's better to keep it uniform than have a small subset of things that are different.
  126. # [00:44] <Hixie> annevk: especially when the ones that are different are the most used ones, like <a href>.
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  128. # [00:45] <Hixie> not sure what the relevance of that id=x example is; the presence of things in the web platform that are inconsistent isn't an argument for adding more.
  129. # [00:47] <annevk> Hixie: I guess if you think we can still get it uniform I might be up for trying that
  130. # [00:48] <annevk> Hixie: would be interesting to hear what others have to say about it
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  132. # [00:50] <zcorpan> seems like it should be possible
  133. # [00:53] <annevk> though if we decide that e.g. CSS should be sane, you get these silly crossover APIs... oh well
  134. # [00:53] <annevk> it'll be messy either way
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  144. # [01:00] <zcorpan> if we want consistent we can make css use the style sheet's encoding
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  148. # [01:10] <Hixie> have CSS always be UTF-8 is fine, it's just its own language
  149. # [01:10] <Hixie> i think it's a lot easier to understand that CSS does it a different way than HTML, than it is that HTML does it differently than HTML
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  152. # [01:16] <zcorpan> i'm not sure many people think in terms of "this is CSS" and "this is HTML"
  153. # [01:18] <zcorpan> anyway, past bed time
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  209. # [03:00] <gsnedders> I guess someone should update the outliner after the changes.
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  259. # [05:52] <Hixie> gsnedders: this causes a crash currently: <doctype html><title>T</title><h1>1...</h1><section>implied</section><figure>figure</figure><h2>2...</h2><h2>3...</h2>
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  270. # [07:09] <MikeSmith> I'll update the outline feature in the validator
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  274. # [07:26] <MikeSmith> Hixie: have you commented on Client Hints anywhere yet?
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  288. # [08:04] <MikeSmith> push notifications.
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  331. # [10:36] <hsivonen> annevk-cloud: considering how popular IE is in China, it would probably be relevent to test IE6...11. If you have a test page that automatically dumps the test result in a copy-pasteable form, I can run it in IE6...11
  332. # [10:37] <hsivonen> annevk-cloud: anyway, seems awesome of we can use the kind of GB18030 decoder Firefox already has *and* have it be an UTF
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  369. # [13:59] <annevk-cloud> The problem with my page is that it does not work in IE
  370. # [13:59] <annevk-cloud> I can fix that tomorrow so we can be thorough
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  392. # [14:34] <DeTeam> Hey! Is there anyone who's familiar with http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-grid-layout ? :)
  393. # [14:34] <Ms2ger> itym http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-grid/
  394. # [14:34] <jgraham> Not that is likely to be awake at the moment, I think
  395. # [14:34] <Ms2ger> So TabAtkins
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  397. # [14:34] <jgraham> But yes, also /TR/ -> out of date
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  399. # [14:35] <DeTeam> wow, didn't know about the draft
  400. # [14:35] <DeTeam> we've got a huge timeshift, I guess
  401. # [14:36] <DeTeam> TabAtkins seem to be offline now :(
  402. # [14:37] <DeTeam> is there a huge difference between the TR and the draft? only three months gone
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  404. # [14:40] <jgraham> Three months is a long time in web standards
  405. # [14:40] <DeTeam> Ms2ger: are you going to implement grids in servo? ;)
  406. # [14:40] <jgraham> Or can be at least
  407. # [14:40] <Ms2ger> I don't think so :)
  408. # [14:40] <Ms2ger> Will you?
  409. # [14:41] <DeTeam> I don't do rust (%
  410. # [14:41] * jgraham looks forward to servo being the only browser that doesn't support forms, but does support grid
  411. # [14:41] <DeTeam> jgraham: got it.. so it's all about slow implementations
  412. # [14:41] <zcorpan> DeTeam: did you have a question about it? (i'm not really familiar with it, but here it might be best to just ask the question and then wait)
  413. # [14:42] <DeTeam> people don't need forms, grids are fine )
  414. # [14:42] <Ms2ger> Forms are hard
  415. # [14:42] <DeTeam> zcorpan: yes, a few, the algorithm described in section 11 is not very clear for me
  416. # [14:42] <Ms2ger> Clearly we should get webcomponents first
  417. # [14:43] <Ms2ger> Then people can polyfill input type=text
  418. # [14:44] <DeTeam> I'll check the dev spec and the post my questions, thanks
  419. # [14:44] <zcorpan> DeTeam: it's just missing a reference to Your Imagination. T. Atkins.
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  424. # [14:49] <DeTeam> zcorpan: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-grid/#function-ResolveContentBasedTrackSizingFunctions-algorithm step 1 says the we should filter out items with span>1 (e.g. 2) and cross a flex-sized grid track. In any direction (both rows, cols) or depending on current direction (if so - how)?
  425. # [14:49] <DeTeam> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-grid/#adapting-to-available-space - shouldn't the big area in fig 2 and 3 be excluded?
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  434. # [15:04] <zcorpan> DeTeam: i'd recommend you file bugs https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/enter_bug.cgi?product=CSS&component=Grid+Layout
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  436. # [15:06] <DeTeam> Not sure those a bugs, just wondering how things should work (before trying to implement that grid layouting)
  437. # [15:06] <DeTeam> those are*
  438. # [15:07] <DeTeam> zcorpan: mb I should wait for Tab to get online
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  441. # [15:07] <zcorpan> DeTeam: it's a bug that the spec isn't clear to you :-)
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  443. # [15:09] <DeTeam> zcorpan: hm, may be. I'll do this after chat with Tab or other authors
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  446. # [15:09] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Oh please do imploement web components first. It would be beautiful.
  447. # [15:18] <DeTeam> gsnedders: is there webcomponents introduction talk, the one from google i/o?
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  449. # [15:23] <gsnedders> DeTeam: No idea :)
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  451. # [15:35] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, patches welcome :D
  452. # [15:37] <rdebeasi> DeTeam, this one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqULJBBEVQE
  453. # [15:37] <DeTeam> rdebeasi: seem so
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  455. # [15:40] <darobin_> DeTeam: depending on what you're looking for there's also the explainer document
  456. # [15:40] <darobin_> (though it's more or less 50% science fiction and 50% out of date :)
  457. # [15:40] * darobin_ is now known as darobin
  458. # [15:41] <DeTeam> darobin: doc on css grids?
  459. # [15:41] <darobin> DeTeam: no, sorry, I meant for Web Components
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  461. # [15:42] <darobin> IIRC there are several docs on CSS grids but they're all out of date with this week's version :)
  462. # [15:42] <DeTeam> darobin: ah, heard about it for the first time, just scheduling stuff to read/watch later
  463. # [15:42] <darobin> DeTeam: there's this http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/explainer/index.html
  464. # [15:43] <DeTeam> darobin: yeah, already found it, thanks ;)
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  478. # [16:35] <jgraham> darobin: You look bored! How about some code review? ;)
  479. # [16:35] <darobin> oh dear
  480. # [16:35] <darobin> jgraham: which one?
  481. # [16:36] <jgraham> https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/440
  482. # [16:37] <Ms2ger> Or 368
  483. # [16:38] <Ms2ger> Yes, I know the number by now
  484. # [16:39] <jgraham> 364, 368, 440: the holy trinity of review requests
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  490. # [16:46] <darobin> jgraham: on the face of it it looks good, but you know I'm no Python wizz
  491. # [16:47] <darobin> but from a quick scan it looks sane and seems to DTRT
  492. # [16:47] <jgraham> darobin: Hmm, I guess I will get someone else to review in more detail then :)
  493. # [16:47] <jgraham> Thanks
  494. # [16:47] <darobin> jgraham: yeah, I mean, I'm happy to review things but I can only do so sensibly in terms of use cases really
  495. # [16:48] <darobin> and this seems to be the tool I'd want to use
  496. # [16:48] <jgraham> BTW, if you actually *are* bored at any point maybe you would consider improving the test runner in the jgraham/runner branch
  497. # [16:48] <darobin> but if you're doing something stupid in Python, it's not obvious to me :)
  498. # [16:48] <jgraham> (no review yet)
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  500. # [16:48] <darobin> I am bored, but sadly it's with something I have to do
  501. # [16:48] <darobin> I hope to get rid of it today though, so I might be the right kind of bored tomorrow :)
  502. # [16:49] <Ms2ger> Run away?
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  504. # [16:49] <darobin> I need to get the runner working for HTML anyway
  505. # [16:50] <jgraham> Well I think it works, it just needs polish
  506. # [16:50] <jgraham> Someone that doesn't produce eye-bleedingly awful designs
  507. # [16:53] <Ms2ger> So at least you copied the design from me? :)
  508. # [16:53] <jgraham> I may even have made it worse :)
  509. # [16:53] <Ms2ger> That sounds implausible :)
  510. # [16:55] <jgraham> I dunno, I don't think you will like the way that reftests work now, for example. The Grand Design requires that there are keyboard shortcuts, but I didn't get as far as implementing them
  511. # [16:55] <Ms2ger> Did you put the runner online somewhere?
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  513. # [16:56] <Ms2ger> Though I guess I already managed to checkout the branch
  514. # [16:56] <Ms2ger> Oh, hrm
  515. # [16:56] <jgraham> It uses the local server
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  517. # [16:57] <Ms2ger> And your manifest, I guess
  518. # [16:57] <jgraham> Yes
  519. # [16:57] <jgraham> Thats just another reason r/440 needs some lovw
  520. # [16:57] <Ms2ger> Does it support running a subset of the tests?
  521. # [16:57] <jgraham> *love
  522. # [16:58] <jgraham> Yes, you can specify a url prefix to match
  523. # [16:58] <jgraham> e.g. /workers
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  525. # [16:58] <Ms2ger> Okay, not going to bother setting it up locally right now, then
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  527. # [17:00] <jgraham> Yeah, this will be easier once the three reviews above land. That's why I didn't even create a review for the test runner yet
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  532. # [17:04] <darobin> I really like the number of times I can get PhantomJS to crash by having it run through the test suite
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  558. # [17:59] <MikeSmith> annevk-cloud: is there a mozilla bug for the Streams API other than https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=891286
  559. # [18:02] * Joins: darobin_ (~darobin@78.109.80.74)
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  562. # [18:04] <MikeSmith> or Mozilla discussion somewhere about Domenic's draft?
  563. # [18:05] <MikeSmith> Domenic_: ↑
  564. # [18:06] <MikeSmith> Domenic_: or discussion anywhere else I might have missed? a Chrome bug?
  565. # [18:07] <MikeSmith> I guess I need to look back at the public-webapps discussion
  566. # [18:08] * MikeSmith finds https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=240603
  567. # [18:08] <Domenic_> MikeSmith: marcosc is involved, since e.g. he's using whatwg/streams in Serial API and I think one other place.
  568. # [18:08] <MikeSmith> Domenic_: OK
  569. # [18:09] <Domenic_> MikeSmith: we still need to have everyone get together and have a conversation and iron out some differences...
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  571. # [18:11] <MikeSmith> Domenic_: as far as ironing out the differences, it seems like the approach in Yoshino-san's draft and yours aren't reconcilable, right?
  572. # [18:13] * tobie wishes we could just pave the node cow-path here (learn from their initial mistakes) and move on.
  573. # [18:14] <Domenic_> MikeSmith: agree... but, would be better not to have two competing standards.
  574. # [18:14] <Domenic_> tobie: yeah, that's what whatwg/streams tries to do.
  575. # [18:15] <tobie> yeah, let's turn that into a whatwg/w3c conversation. Sounds super productive. :D
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  577. # [18:17] <Domenic_> that's kind of the problem, is that i've flippantly said unpolitic things in that direction, hurting whatwg/streams credibility :(
  578. # [18:18] <jgraham> I'm not sure that's the actual problem
  579. # [18:18] <Domenic_> well, it's a problem, and at least one that i feel bad about
  580. # [18:18] <Domenic_> but yes, probably not the problem
  581. # [18:18] <annevk-cloud> MikeSmith: not that I know
  582. # [18:19] <tobie> Should we have a task force to determine what the nature of the problem is?
  583. # [18:19] <Domenic_> tobie: w3c task force or whatwg task force?
  584. # [18:19] <annevk-cloud> Are you serious?
  585. # [18:19] <tobie> shit. Hadn't thought about that.
  586. # [18:19] <annevk-cloud> Because Task Forces…
  587. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> Domenic_: I don't think you've hurt the credibility of it all. I think implementors are going to judge it on its merits just like everything else
  588. # [18:20] <Domenic_> MikeSmith: that's the dream; glad to hear you think so :)
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  590. # [18:20] <annevk-cloud> I tend to agree with that as well, let the best standard win
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  592. # [18:20] <tobie> Maybe a workshop is more appropriate, then.
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  595. # [18:20] <annevk-cloud> Dude!
  596. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> tobie has become trollbie
  597. # [18:21] <tobie> well, now that anne lives in the cloud, I thought why not?
  598. # [18:21] <annevk-cloud> I have a hard time reading the troll
  599. # [18:21] <annevk-cloud> I guess tobie wins
  600. # [18:21] <Domenic_> i thought the word "task force" was a good giveaway
  601. # [18:22] <Domenic_> would this task force be doing any internet engineering?
  602. # [18:22] <tobie> More seriously, though, glad to hear there's a sensible proposal on the table.
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  604. # [18:25] <jgraham> I though usually the wiining standard was the one that Apple shipped unannounced before refusing to implement anything else
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  606. # [18:25] <Domenic_> hmm one of my college friends works at apple...
  607. # [18:25] <tobie> OK, this is getting way out of hand.
  608. # [18:26] <tobie> The last thing the web needs is streams implemented as meta tags.
  609. # [18:26] <jgraham> tobie: All the people that hate js would love it though
  610. # [18:27] <jgraham> (I guess event source is almost that…)
  611. # [18:27] <tobie> ^ true
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  633. # [19:01] <Ms2ger> What's next, Dart.NET?
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  635. # [19:05] <Domenic_> DScript comes first I believe
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  648. # [19:29] <odinho> Tell me, a XHR request which set some custom requestheader (content-type), -- when it follows a 301/302 redirect, should that request header be sent to the new redirected location?
  649. # [19:32] <odinho> (this also with cors, but simple request)
  650. # [19:32] <odinho> It seems to be re-using the request object.
  651. # [19:32] <odinho> 4. Return the result of performing a fetch using request, with the CORS flag set if set.
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  654. # [19:32] <odinho> Which is what I expect. So I would expect the content-type to get to the redirected cors-domain.
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  656. # [19:36] <odinho> Btw, neither presto, gecko or blink seem to follow this: http://xhr.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-xmlhttprequest-overridemimetype
  657. # [19:36] <odinho> If the state is LOADING or DONE, throw an "InvalidStateError" exception.
  658. # [19:36] <odinho> Seems none do.
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  811. # [23:53] <zcorpan> hsivonen: didn't gecko change to not load non-JS <script>? <http://www.w3.org/mid/52B076A1.2020408@mit.edu>
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  814. # Session Close: Wed Dec 18 00:00:01 2013

The end :)