/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-12-19 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Dec 19 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  32. # [01:43] <TabAtkins> If anyone knows off the top of their head, does the current source selection algorithm for <img> stop when it finds its preferred source, and not try for additional ones if the first one fails?
  33. # [01:43] <TabAtkins> (If no one answers in a bit I'll go look for the answer myself.)
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  124. # [08:35] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: right, img doesn't try further if a source fails to load
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  126. # [08:39] <zcorpan> hmm, i got a spam email that was kind enough to let me know where it found my email address (the cssom spec)
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  132. # [09:03] <hsivonen> zcorpan: was it European spam if the spammer thinks that declaring the source of address makes it better?
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  135. # [09:06] <zcorpan> google translated: "I am a crawler that found email simonp@opera.com on w3.org site exactly http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom/ link and I will aim to post your free ad on <something>.ro"
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  138. # [09:16] <hsivonen> zcorpan: indeed unusual
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  140. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> sendBeacon makes <a ping> superfluous?
  141. # [09:23] <Ms2ger> Right now when we've implemented it?
  142. # [09:27] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: there's an open bug
  143. # [09:28] <MikeSmith> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=936340
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  145. # [09:29] <MikeSmith> and jonas comments at https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=951104
  146. # [09:29] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: <a ping> shipped already?
  147. # [09:29] <MikeSmith> no just in nightly I guess
  148. # [09:30] <Ms2ger> Still preffed off
  149. # [09:30] <MikeSmith> ah ok
  150. # [09:30] <MikeSmith> ah yeah hence the summary of that bug
  151. # [09:34] <zcorpan> <a ping> seems simpler to get right. what if the user middle clicks the link, will the page notice and send the ping?
  152. # [09:35] <zcorpan> if implemented with sendBeacon, i mean
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  154. # [09:36] <zcorpan> what's the problem with having both?
  155. # [09:36] <zcorpan> is ping high-cost?
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  157. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I guess we need to keep <a ping> regardless anyway
  158. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> which is not a problem really
  159. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> just if somebody had come up with sendBeacon first maybe we wouldn't have needed <a ping> to begin with
  160. # [09:45] <zcorpan> "The User Agent MUST throw the URLMismatchError exception if the URL cannot be resolved."
  161. # [09:46] <zcorpan> seems like the wrong exception
  162. # [09:46] <zcorpan> "The User Agent MUST throw the SyntaxError is data is null." also seems like the wrong exception
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  164. # [09:49] <Ms2ger> 'is'?
  165. # [09:52] <zcorpan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-perf/2013Nov/0096.html seems like an interesting proposal. maybe it should allow you to set sync to true but have that be ignored if detach is true
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  173. # [10:32] <darobin> I'm still not convinced this whole beacon stuff is headed the right way
  174. # [10:33] <darobin> it doesn't seem to take into account the use case of e.g. uploading a picture taken in a web app in such a way that you can leave the app immediately but get a notification later upon success
  175. # [10:33] <darobin> which is a common thing that can only be done using native apps today
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  183. # [11:02] <jgraham> darobin: Isn't the difficult part there continuing the upload after you navigate?
  184. # [11:02] <darobin> jgraham: well, that's the interesting part :)
  185. # [11:03] <darobin> you also need to make it so that notifications can be triggered after navigation (and that clicking on them can reopen a page)
  186. # [11:03] <jgraham> Seems like could could solve that with background shared workers, perhaps
  187. # [11:04] <darobin> ideally, progress notifications ought to be possible during upload
  188. # [11:04] <darobin> yes, maybe
  189. # [11:04] <jgraham> At least it seems quite different to the beason stuff
  190. # [11:04] <jgraham> *beacon
  191. # [11:04] <darobin> that's essentially how it works on Android, apps spawn services that are permanent
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  193. # [11:05] <darobin> well, if you look at the code examples that developers show when telling what they'd like for fire-and-forget upload, they look a lot like beacon
  194. # [11:05] <darobin> or at least some of the beacon proposals
  195. # [11:05] <darobin> "give me an XHR that doesn't die"
  196. # [11:09] <jgraham> Well, yes if that's the only use case
  197. # [11:09] <jgraham> If there are other similar use cases then a different solution is needed
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  211. # [12:06] <zcorpan> sent http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-perf/2013Dec/0105.html
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  219. # [12:30] <jgraham> zcorpan: I like how you start with a bunch of small issues and end with "oh and your spec is totally broken"
  220. # [12:30] <zcorpan> heh
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  222. # [12:32] <zcorpan> and i didn't even ask about use cases
  223. # [12:33] <zcorpan> step 1: minor bugs. step 2: fundamental brokenness. step 3: possibly wrong solution altogether
  224. # [12:37] <jgraham> You should obviously reply to your email again :)
  225. # [12:38] <zcorpan> i'll leave step 3 to someone else
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  229. # [13:12] <zcorpan> actually the brokenness seems to apply to <a ping> also
  230. # [13:12] <hsivonen> is one supposed to use a semicolon after a nested function declaration in JS?
  231. # [13:12] <Ms2ger> I don't think so
  232. # [13:12] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: thanks
  233. # [13:12] <zcorpan> function declarations don't need semicolon after
  234. # [13:13] <hsivonen> zcorpan: ok. thanks
  235. # [13:13] <zcorpan> only if you do an assignment like onclick = function() {};
  236. # [13:13] <hsivonen> ok
  237. # [13:14] <jgraham> Yeah, no semicolon after statements, only after expressions I think
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  239. # [13:18] <hsivonen> jgraham: I think you mean the other way round, right?
  240. # [13:19] * hsivonen wasn't sure if a function declaration counted as a statement
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  243. # [13:21] <jgraham> hsivonen: I don't really mean either, it turns out
  244. # [13:21] <Ms2ger> JS is weird
  245. # [13:22] <jgraham> http://www.ecma-international.org/ecma-262/5.1/#sec-A.4
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  249. # [13:33] <matjas> ah, the good ol’ function declaration vs. function expression
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  262. # [14:10] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Function statements as implemented everywhere don't exist in the spec. :)
  263. # [14:11] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Function declarations per spec must be at the top level; only function expressions are allowed to be nested.
  264. # [14:11] <jgraham> Wait, what? They still didn't fix that?
  265. # [14:13] <gsnedders> Oh, it appears to have been fixed, but the spec isn't up to date with what was agreed at Sept F2F
  266. # [14:14] <gsnedders> I missed that entirely.
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  268. # [14:15] <Ms2ger> What, an up-to-date spec?
  269. # [14:15] <Ms2ger> I've missed that quite often
  270. # [14:15] <zcorpan> was the bug something like (function() { if (false) function foo() {}; foo(); /* foo is undefined in impls */ })() ?
  271. # [14:17] <gsnedders> zcorpan: That simply didn't match the grammar.
  272. # [14:18] <gsnedders> zcorpan: the "function" keyword token was a parse error if you only implemented the ES5 grammar
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  274. # [14:19] <hsivonen> in any case, it looks like my patch didn't make strict mode or whatever checks apply to Firefox UI code to blow up
  275. # [14:19] <zcorpan> gsnedders: oh, ok
  276. # [14:20] <gsnedders> zcorpan: (the second "function", obv.)
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  278. # [14:35] <zcorpan> annevk-cloud: does document.URL return HTML's "the document's address"? it says it returns the "URL" which seems like it is a separate concept
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  280. # [14:39] * jorendorff is now known as jorendorff_away
  281. # [14:40] <zcorpan> annevk-cloud: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2707 suggests it should return "the document's address"
  282. # [14:40] <zcorpan> Hixie: ^
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  297. # [15:22] <Ms2ger> "The initial value of Symbol.isRegExp is the well known symbol @@isConcatSpreadableisRegExp"
  298. # [15:22] <Ms2ger> @@isConcatSpreadableisRegExp, really?
  299. # [15:24] <jgraham> "well known"
  300. # [15:33] <hsivonen> annevk-cloud: I finally got around to sending email to whatwg and www-international about TLD-based guessing
  301. # [15:33] <hsivonen> I hope the message was coherent enough for non-Firefox audience
  302. # [15:33] <hsivonen> I adapted it from an older bugzilla comment
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  309. # [15:50] <csmith1> is this the right place to ask about http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/MetaExtensions ?
  310. # [15:52] <csmith1> for example wt.* (webtrends) proposal… should these be generic, rather than product-specific for metrics?
  311. # [15:58] <matjas> jgraham: “well known” refers to this table https://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#table-1
  312. # [15:58] <matjas> “Table 1— Well-known Symbols”
  313. # [15:58] <jgraham> matjas: I know what well known means in this context :) It's just an amusing choice of name
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  317. # [16:07] <Ms2ger> "Posted to whatwg and www-international but not cross-posted"
  318. # [16:07] * Ms2ger doesn't follow
  319. # [16:09] <gsnedders> Um…
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  321. # [16:14] <jgraham> Presumably posted to both but each without the other on the to: header
  322. # [16:15] <jgraham> i.e. two seperate emails
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  325. # [16:19] <Ms2ger> Ah
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  329. # [16:21] <jgraham> Ms2ger: So, why did I get your email 3 times?
  330. # [16:21] <jgraham> :)
  331. # [16:21] <Ms2ger> You're on all three lists I sent it to? :)
  332. # [16:21] <Ms2ger> Sorry, should also have cc'd you :)
  333. # [16:23] <jgraham> Interesting
  334. # [16:23] <jgraham> Thunderbird claims they are all To: public-test-infra, but doing Reply-List on all three will reply to three different lists.
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  337. # [16:28] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  338. # [16:29] <Ms2ger> I only got one copy of Art's email, and reply-to-list went to p-w-t
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  404. # [18:12] <MikeSmith> what constitutes a declarative API?
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  406. # [18:15] <jgraham> Either a) one that you want but aren't getting or b) one that someone else wants but you don't want to give them
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  408. # [18:16] <jgraham> But I think typically people mean one that isn't implemented in script
  409. # [18:16] <MikeSmith> I like your first answer better
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  411. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> so then next part of this quiz is what's declarative about approach B) in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013OctDec/1096.html
  412. # [18:18] <jgraham> (but I think people can use "declarative API" to mean "high level API that allows implementing common tasks without worrying about the underlying mechanics", hence my first answer)
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  414. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> ah
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  416. # [18:20] <MikeSmith> oh man http://wiki.apidesign.org/wiki/Declarative_Programming is fun
  417. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> it reads like it was writteng by horsejs
  418. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> "JavaScript is just too powerful language for declarations."
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  420. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> "That is why, if one wishes to worship declarative programming inside existing imperative languages, it seems very important to make the declarative syntax less powerful than Turing Machine."
  421. # [18:23] <jgraham> All hail our declarative overlords
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  428. # [18:27] <MikeSmith> J̥̫͗̅ͥ̄͛͡ȧ̛͎͈̬̺̳̤̘̔͗ͣ́ͅv̵͉͕̯̗͓̠̫͈͑̐̊̔ͪ̃͠a͍͇̼̙ͭ̀ͅS̨͕̘̔͛̈̽̑̑ͭ̏ͤc̵̪̳̼̲̲̘̟ͮ͊r̵͉̼̲͍̱̱̋̇̉̂͟i̸͓̺͍͎͔̱̭͆͊ͬ̑̾͐̊p̋̽̎̑͒̅͑̎҉͖̞̥t͙̺̠̻͖͕̒͐̓͜ ̷͍̜̝͂̈̄͛ï̸̧̛̼̼͔̭̤̥̪̋ͥͭ͑̒͂̀s̴̢̤̯̰̗̲͙̬͗͛ͬͪ̅̀̽͢ ̫͚͆ͨͬ͗͛̌́̀͠j̀͑ͬͧ̍͗͏̯̙̳̀͡u̙̻̘ͪ̓s͖̬̮̯͈̱ͬͨ̀̂̿̚͟͡t̷̻̝͙̂̆̃̃ͭͮ͌̅ ͦͩ҉͓̳͖
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  444. # [18:55] <annevk-cloud> zcorpan: they match
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  449. # [19:02] <bholley> Hixie: any last-ditch ideas on how to get input from Microsoft and Apple before we meet tomorrow?
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  461. # [19:26] <MikeSmith> bholley: ping hober
  462. # [19:26] <bholley> hober: ^
  463. # [19:29] <MikeSmith> from Microsoft you need Travis I guess
  464. # [19:29] <MikeSmith> somebody could e-mail him if you haven't already
  465. # [19:34] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: "Declarative" and "imperative" are obviously spectrums, but declarative APIs are more rule-based and "let the UA figure it out" rather than the author explicitly doing things themselves.
  466. # [19:35] <MikeSmith> ok
  467. # [19:36] <TabAtkins> So, though that's a large email that I'm not going to do any more than skim, it does look like the "caches" approach is slightly more declarative than option A.
  468. # [19:36] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: that sounds like what people usually call a high-level API vs a low-level one though
  469. # [19:36] <TabAtkins> Yes, high-level APIs are usually "high-level" because they're more declarative.
  470. # [19:41] <MikeSmith> bholley remind me whats that bug
  471. # [19:41] <bholley> MikeSmith: I already emailed Travis
  472. # [19:41] <bholley> MikeSmith: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20701
  473. # [19:42] <MikeSmith> ok
  474. # [19:43] <MikeSmith> ah great I follow that link and it launches firefox nightly I just finished building and I get XML Parsing Error: undefined entity Location: chrome://browser/content/browser.xul
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  476. # [19:47] <MikeSmith> hmm well http://developer.chrome.com/extensions/events.html#declarative is interesting
  477. # [19:48] <MikeSmith> var rule = { conditions: [ /* my conditions */ ], actions: [ /* my actions */ ]
  478. # [19:48] <MikeSmith> };
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  482. # [19:56] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: Ooh, that is rather interesting.
  483. # [19:57] <MikeSmith> something cooked up just for extensions I guess
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  494. # [20:09] <TabAtkins> Okay, now that I'm reading Mellor's background sync thread in Gmail rather than the archives, it's much more understandable.
  495. # [20:10] <TabAtkins> One of the few times I've ever experienced in mailing lists where HTML emails are more readable than plain text.
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  497. # [20:13] <TabAtkins> (Though I suspect that if the email were plain-text Markdown instead, it would be just as readable in the archives.)
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  503. # [20:22] <MikeSmith> the plain text version seems pretty readable as is in my mua
  504. # [20:23] <TabAtkins> It's not terrible, it's just wall-of-texty, and difficult to distinguish the cases.
  505. # [20:23] <TabAtkins> A bit of bolding in the HTML version helps a ton for skimming.
  506. # [20:23] <MikeSmith> ah he's got some boldface of stuff in the HTML version though, that's nice
  507. # [20:23] <MikeSmith> in the code examples I mean
  508. # [20:23] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that's very helpful as well.
  509. # [20:24] <TabAtkins> Now I'm finally motivated to go read the ServiceWorker spec. It looks quite good!
  510. # [20:24] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: yeah now only if there were actually a ServiceWorker spec that exists
  511. # [20:25] <MikeSmith> you'd be all set
  512. # [20:25] <TabAtkins> Yeah, the explainer documents are really nice, though.
  513. # [20:25] <MikeSmith> yeah
  514. # [20:25] <TabAtkins> I might ping Alex about working on that for real.
  515. # [20:25] <MikeSmith> I thought Jake said he was planning to work on it very soon
  516. # [20:25] <TabAtkins> Ah, cool.
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  519. # [20:42] <gsnedders> This is so boring. Why did I decide to essentially rewrite the parser in process algebra as a uni project?
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  526. # [20:57] <gsnedders> Just, implementing the state machine is so dull.
  527. # [20:58] <odinho> lol :)
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  531. # [21:00] <odinho> I really liked reading the serviceworker docs as well. meant for a wide audience i guess :)
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  544. # [21:19] <TabAtkins> Hahaha, I like the paragraph in the Explainer under "Offline & Fallback Content" that's just a single italic "Indeed".
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  546. # [21:19] <TabAtkins> It's fun when you can tell someone's speaking mannerisms are bleeding into their writing.
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  555. # [21:38] <zcorpan> annevk-cloud: where is it defined that they match?
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  581. # [22:20] <Ms2ger> tobie, I don't follow the "This would be very detrimental to vendors running these test suites." comment
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  583. # [22:25] <tobie> Ms2ger: did I misunderstand the mail?
  584. # [22:25] <tobie> I read it quickly.
  585. # [22:26] <tobie> I thought he was suggesting splitting the repository.
  586. # [22:26] <Ms2ger> Oh, I hope not
  587. # [22:26] <Ms2ger> I think that was about bugzilla components
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  589. # [22:27] <Ms2ger> If we agree Bugzilla should be used to report all test case bugs: 1) should we have an agreed way for a test suite in WPT to point to Bugzilla (although Bugzilla has bug reports for websockets and workers tests, that link is missing from the test suites); 2) should we continue to lump all of the tests in a single component or create per test suite components (e.g. tests-workers, workers-tests, ...).
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  595. # [22:38] <zcorpan> i don't want to hold a presentation at test the web forward going through the steps to create a bugzilla account and report a test bug
  596. # [22:39] <zcorpan> so, i agree with jgraham
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  616. # [23:21] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED57922.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  617. # [23:22] * Quits: jernoble (~jernoble@17.114.109.185) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
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  619. # [23:29] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com) (Quit: sicking)
  620. # [23:34] * Quits: zdobersek (~zdobersek@62-210-167-195.rev.poneytelecom.eu) (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
  621. # [23:35] * Quits: mven (~mven@169.241.49.234) (Remote host closed the connection)
  622. # [23:37] * Joins: WeirdAl (~chatzilla@g2spf.ask.info)
  623. # [23:40] * Joins: SteveF (~chatzilla@cpc3-nmal20-2-0-cust916.19-2.cable.virginm.net)
  624. # [23:40] * Quits: SteveF (~chatzilla@cpc3-nmal20-2-0-cust916.19-2.cable.virginm.net) (Client Quit)
  625. # [23:52] * Joins: sgalineau (~sylvaing@192.150.10.204)
  626. # [23:55] * Quits: cheron (~cheron@unaffiliated/cheron) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  627. # [23:56] * Quits: KevinMarks (~KevinMark@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  628. # [23:57] * Quits: seventh (seventh@185.29.164.51) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  629. # Session Close: Fri Dec 20 00:00:00 2013

The end :)