/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-01-08 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  14. # [00:22] <dbaron> Hixie, so a number of years ago I remember thinking that the intent of the IDN (and maybe also IRI) specs was that different "slots" (places where a URI went) would have to specify individually whether they accepted the new features. Looking back now, I can't seem to find any backing for this understanding in the specs. Do you remember having a similar understanding, or was I just overinterpreting?
  15. # [00:24] <Hixie> i have the same understanding
  16. # [00:24] <Hixie> i don't really see how else it could work, i mean, you can't force places that only ever accepted ASCII to suddenly accept Unicode.
  17. # [00:25] <dbaron> looking at the specs now... it seems like IDN defines an "IDN-aware slot" concept... but that IRI then says IRIs can have unicode hostnames and essentially says they're IDN-aware
  18. # [00:25] <Hixie> IRIs are always IDN-aware. but not everywhere accepts IRIs.
  19. # [00:25] <dbaron> hmmm... pretty sure <a href="..."> deals with Unicode these days
  20. # [00:26] <dbaron> even though it didn't at one point
  21. # [00:26] <Hixie> well <a href=""> just references the URL standard, which bypasses all of the URI and IRI specs.
  22. # [00:26] <dbaron> right... I'm trying to finish a blog post about versioning that I started 7 years ago
  23. # [00:26] <Hixie> heh
  24. # [00:26] <dbaron> and one of the points I wanted to make about how some of those specs were doing it wrong
  25. # [00:27] <dbaron> but I'm having trouble finding evidence for that
  26. # [00:27] <dbaron> I think the thing we thought they were doing was wrong, but I'm no longer convinced it's what they say.
  27. # [00:27] <Hixie> with <a href=""> we added idn support by first updating all the software, basically. Also, we always accepted IRIs there, in a poorly-defined (until recently) way
  28. # [00:27] <Hixie> i dunno what doing it right would really look like for IDN. it's a tough space.
  29. # [00:27] <Hixie> there's better examples of "doing it wrong" for this kind of thing.
  30. # [00:28] <Hixie> XHTML2, e.g., but also XML 1.1
  31. # [00:28] <dbaron> I was going to use XML 1.1
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  33. # [00:28] <Hixie> also people are always wanting to add versions to their protocols even though you can never really do anything with them
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  35. # [00:28] <dbaron> though if I could use URI/IRI it would lead to much easier-to-read examples
  36. # [00:28] <Hixie> e.g. websocket ended up with some version nonsense
  37. # [00:29] <Hixie> despite my best efforts
  38. # [00:29] <Hixie> (sigh IETF)
  39. # [00:31] <Hixie> URI and IRI had lots of problems, but versioning isn't one of them, i think
  40. # [00:31] <Hixie> IDNA vs Unicode is a better example of versioning issues
  41. # [00:31] <Hixie> but anne is the one to ask about taht
  42. # [00:33] <dbaron> k, thanks for the help
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  60. # [01:21] <gsnedders> dbaron: XML 1.0 5th Ed seems an even better example than 1.1, though obvious enough I presume you've already mentioned it :)
  61. # [01:22] <Hixie> 1.1 is an example of versioning done wrongly, 1.0 e5 is an example of it done right(ish)
  62. # [01:22] * dbaron agrees with Hixie there
  63. # [01:22] <Hixie> (ish because e.g. it still has a version pseudo-attribute, and still uses the TR/ page model, and...)
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  65. # [01:30] <gsnedders> But XML 1.0 is still de-facto 4e, with no evidence of that changing.
  66. # [01:31] <gsnedders> Given nobody wants to rely on 5e being supported.
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  69. # [01:36] <Hixie> oh what's teh difference between 4e and 5e?
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  82. # [02:05] <TabAtkins> annevk-cloud: The way the Encoding Standard uses the term "fallback encoding" and the way you call the algorithm is somewhat confusing. It would be clearer if there was a hook for "needs a fallback encoding" which tests if the document has a BOM or not, and then the encoding algo calls its argument just "encoding".
  83. # [02:06] <TabAtkins> It seems to confuse people a lot if a spec goes through a lot of steps to determine an encoding, makes no mention of BOM, and then at the end BOM gets to override all the work the spec did anyway.
  84. # [02:08] <TabAtkins> Oh, hm, here's how I'd like to write it:
  85. # [02:09] <TabAtkins> "If the input stream /has a detectable encoding/, let /encoding/ be the result of /detecting the encoding/. Otherwise, let /encoding/ be .... /Decode the input stream/ with /encoding/."
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  88. # [02:09] <TabAtkins> That reads well, but has the exact same effect.
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  130. # [03:35] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: what's ICB mean?
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  134. # [03:46] <MikeSmith> initial containing block
  135. # [03:49] <Hixie> yeah
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  138. # [03:51] <MikeSmith> Hixie: do you know what current CSS spec defines the equivalent of http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/visuren.html ?
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  140. # [03:54] <Hixie> isn't that it?
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  142. # [03:55] <MikeSmith> Is it? I was thinking their must be some CSS3 version. Or some Level N version, whatever numbering thing they using now
  143. # [03:55] <Hixie> dunno, i'm not up to date on css stuff :-(
  144. # [03:55] <MikeSmith> OK I'll keep looking
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  146. # [03:59] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: btw there's going to be a temporary outage of the http://dev.w3.org/csswg/ tree at some point soon, because that's being written to http://w3c-test.org/csswg/ and I'm going to be shutting down Apache on on port 80 there so we can run the w-p-t python server instead. I'm moving Apache to a different port and will update the rewrite after I do that.
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  150. # [04:04] <MikeSmith> OK I see from http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/ that "Viewport and initial containing block are defined by CSS 2.1."
  151. # [04:06] * rektide_ is now known as rektide
  152. # [04:07] <astearns> MikeSmith: I believe http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-box/ is the intended update, but it isn't near ready yet
  153. # [04:07] <MikeSmith> astearns: OK thanks
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  162. # [04:28] * MikeSmith files a bug against the CSS 2.1 Rec
  163. # [04:28] <MikeSmith> win 17
  164. # [04:28] <MikeSmith> oofs
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  167. # [04:35] <MikeSmith> hah https://twitter.com/JeniT/status/420638634610798592 "Web components + JS undermine the essential important feature of the web, that browser is not the only client" retweeted by "SEO Market Place"
  168. # [04:36] <MikeSmith> I love the web
  169. # [04:36] <MikeSmith> oops not that one but ""The only people who build for a search engine rather than a browser are spammers."
  170. # [04:41] <Hixie> wait what
  171. # [04:41] <Hixie> aren't those two mutually exclusive
  172. # [04:42] <Hixie> (and both wrong...)
  173. # [04:44] <MikeSmith> yeah
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  196. # [05:52] <MikeSmith> hmm http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=8383&to=8384 validator support
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  198. # [06:01] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/ is still requiring me to log back in on every page load; I have the IP-address checkbox thing unchecked and not getting any kind of error
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  200. # [06:04] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: hmm it seems it has two Bugzilla_logincookie cookies set and two Bugzilla_login cookies set
  201. # [06:04] <MikeSmith> with one of each being what seems to be a stale cookie from a month ago
  202. # [06:05] * MikeSmith tries removing the cookies and re-logging-in
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  204. # [06:08] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: removing the old cookies seems to have fixed it
  205. # [06:09] <MikeSmith> Hixie: there's no spec prohibition against a UA storing two cookies with exactly the same name?
  206. # [06:12] <Hixie> not my spec, but, i would imagine it's keyed by name?
  207. # [06:13] <Hixie> surely if you set a cookie with name X to a value, and it already has one, it just updates the name
  208. # [06:13] <Hixie> er
  209. # [06:13] <Hixie> updates the value
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  214. # [06:27] <MikeSmith> Hixie: that's what I would have thought too but Firefox and Chrome are both storing cookies with duplicate names for bugzilla.validator.nu cookies
  215. # [06:27] <MikeSmith> https://gist.github.com/sideshowbarker/8284404/raw/93e7508cb1393fee66fb0ed098f8f97b626d6086/vnu-ff.png
  216. # [06:27] <MikeSmith> https://gist.github.com/sideshowbarker/8284404/raw/d37f460a2b63057307a1dcbe3c006c7c2bef7b86/vnu.png
  217. # [06:27] <Hixie> check the paths
  218. # [06:27] <MikeSmith> ah
  219. # [06:27] <Hixie> i bet they'll be different
  220. # [06:28] <MikeSmith> yeah
  221. # [06:28] <MikeSmith> though not the path actually but the domain
  222. # [06:28] <MikeSmith> weird
  223. # [06:28] <Hixie> huh
  224. # [06:29] <MikeSmith> domain is ".bugzilla.validator.nu"
  225. # [06:29] <MikeSmith> that is, with a leading dot, for some reason
  226. # [06:30] <Hixie> weird
  227. # [06:30] <Hixie> sounds like a bug in bugzilla
  228. # [06:30] <MikeSmith> yeah must be
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  261. # [07:38] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: good that there was a solution to the login problem
  262. # [07:38] <hsivonen> (I really should put bugzilla behind https, since it has login...)
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  264. # [07:40] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: that'd be cool but not a big priority I guess
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  306. # [10:01] <annevk> I just found out this exists: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNCpBwJOadw
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  310. # [10:27] <annevk> smola: the host lowercasing thing is interesting
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  322. # [11:18] <annevk> TabAtkins: it's not really clear to me how your sentence would replace the current wording
  323. # [11:18] <annevk> TabAtkins: maybe file a bug?
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  326. # [11:22] <smola> annevk: yep
  327. # [11:22] <annevk> smola: I outlined a strategy in the bug that I think is correct
  328. # [11:22] <smola> in my implementation I just added the lowercasing to domainToASCII, but it's quite different since that's private API for me and I'm not concerned with JavaScript API
  329. # [11:23] <annevk> smola: yeah, I think it should become a private API in the specification too
  330. # [11:23] <annevk> smola: and you only ever get there through the host parser
  331. # [11:23] <smola> right
  332. # [11:24] <smola> also, I'm not sure ToUnicode needs this
  333. # [11:24] <annevk> probably not, I think ToASCII always happens
  334. # [11:24] <annevk> because if ToASCII fails there's no host, and ToUnicode cannot fail
  335. # [11:25] <smola> that's definitely the case in my implementation
  336. # [11:25] <annevk> so yeah, maybe ToASCII is a better place
  337. # [11:29] <smola> I have yet to check if there're any strange behaviour with locale-dependent case mappings
  338. # [11:31] <smola> these things are well-known to break on conversion to upper case on the Turkish dotted/dotless i, I'll check if the same can happen in to lower case, and what are we supposed to do on IDN using these characters
  339. # [11:38] <smola> annevk: hm, an option is to perform the lowercasing *after* the ToASCII
  340. # [11:39] <annevk> My idea was to perform ASCII lowercase btw
  341. # [11:39] <annevk> which should be saf
  342. # [11:39] <annevk> e
  343. # [11:39] <smola> ToASCII seems to be lowercasing except when the original string is completely ASCII)
  344. # [11:39] <annevk> Yeah, another thing would be to completely inline the IDNA business
  345. # [11:40] <annevk> But I don't really like that
  346. # [11:40] <annevk> The other thing with space probably requires research as to what ASCII browsers reject there and what they accept
  347. # [11:40] <annevk> The host parser could just reject if there's a space, we don't want to reject for _ however
  348. # [11:41] <smola> right, _ is actually used; I've spent some time trying to look for a single real use case for a host with a space and I haven't found any so far
  349. # [11:43] <smola> btw, how do you these these things on each browser?
  350. # [11:44] <smola> do you enter the URL in the address bar? use any JS function?
  351. # [11:45] <smola> some kind of automation would allow to use a service like Sauce Labs and test on every browser/version quickly
  352. # [11:47] <MikeSmith> smola: about your parser I really like that you already have the mechanism in there for actually reporting the parse errors
  353. # [11:48] <zcorpan> smola: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/tree/master/url
  354. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> smola: I hope eventually we can replace the URL checker in the validator.nu backend with your code
  355. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: btw about the webkit-dev thread I meant the comments from Antti and a copule others who were critical, and TabAtkins responses
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  357. # [11:54] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: k
  358. # [11:54] <zcorpan> i wonder what the critics think of new picture
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  360. # [11:56] <smola> zcorpan: thank you :)
  361. # [11:56] <annevk> smola: I wrote tests, I also have http://dump.testsuite.org/url/inspect.html
  362. # [11:56] <annevk> smola: and I have access to IE, Safari, Chrome, and Firefox
  363. # [11:57] <smola> MikeSmith: I still have a lot of work to do on providing meaningful error messages, a lot of them are still just "PARSE ERROR"
  364. # [11:57] <annevk> smola: I end up mostly doing adhoc tests and adjusting as I go
  365. # [11:58] <smola> MikeSmith: it would be great to see it working on validator.nu, if you have any doubt/request just tell me here/GitHub/santi@mola.io ;)
  366. # [11:58] <smola> annevk: alright
  367. # [12:02] <MikeSmith> smola: as far as useful error messages for parse errors, looking through how hsivonen handled them for HTML parsing in http://hg.mozilla.org/projects/htmlparser/file/tip/src/nu/validator/htmlparser/impl might provide some inspiration
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  370. # [12:07] <MikeSmith> smola: http://hg.mozilla.org/projects/htmlparser/file/tip/src/nu/validator/htmlparser/impl/ErrorReportingTokenizer.java mainly
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  372. # [12:08] <smola> MikeSmith: great, I'll check that
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  375. # [12:15] <MikeSmith> smola: once you're around to working on the error reporting more I'd be happy to contribute patches if/when you want them
  376. # [12:19] <annevk> MikeSmith: are you going to use his parser so Validator.nu validates URLs?
  377. # [12:22] <smola> MikeSmith: thanks!
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  379. # [12:22] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah that's the plan
  380. # [12:23] <annevk> Great!
  381. # [12:23] <MikeSmith> annevk: we're already validating URLs but we're using the Jena URI library
  382. # [12:24] <MikeSmith> which follows the legacy RFCs but not of course the current URL standard
  383. # [12:25] <MikeSmith> the Jena URI code is pretty old (and unmaintained now )
  384. # [12:26] <MikeSmith> and to be clear the plan for replacing it depends on hsivonen OKing it
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  387. # [12:37] <smola> it seems most Java stuff is stuck at RFC 2396
  388. # [12:38] <smola> and lacks support for IDN
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  393. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> yeah
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  407. # [13:37] <zcorpan> annevk: any conclusion yet about utf-8 vs doc encoding for urls?
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  409. # [13:39] <annevk> no
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  416. # [14:31] <annevk> zcorpan: it's not entirely clear to me how to make a good decision here
  417. # [14:32] <annevk> zcorpan: I remember last time my final argument was that having to keep the document's encoding around in order how to know how to resolve a URL was bad news
  418. # [14:32] <annevk> zcorpan: so I think I would still prefer to use utf-8 whenever possible so having to keep that around is limited to a couple of things in HTML
  419. # [14:33] <annevk> zcorpan: e.g. requiring it for EventSource seems painful, as EventSource would otherwise not need it, same for XMLHttpRequest
  420. # [14:34] <zcorpan> annevk: but don't you need to keep it around anyway?
  421. # [14:34] <annevk> zcorpan: not in e.g. Workers
  422. # [14:35] <zcorpan> annevk: right, but outside workers
  423. # [14:36] <annevk> zcorpan: so you want to complicate the API implementation because of document environments it might be used in?
  424. # [14:36] <annevk> zcorpan: it seems better if the API implementation doesn't need that at all
  425. # [14:38] <zcorpan> er, no, i'm just saying that you need to store the document's encoding so it's not a big win that EventSource avoids using it
  426. # [14:39] <zcorpan> it's not clear to me that it complicates the impl since browsers seem to have used the document's encoding by accident in some places
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  428. # [14:40] <zcorpan> as for CSS, it also needs to store its encoding because @import can use it as fallback encoding
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  438. # [15:07] <Ms2ger> Here it's 2014 and we're still speccing <frame>
  439. # [15:07] <darobin> :)
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  463. # [15:50] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: tests coming up?
  464. # [15:50] <zcorpan> for <frame>
  465. # [15:51] <Ms2ger> Not from me
  466. # [15:51] <zcorpan> aww
  467. # [15:51] <zcorpan> poor frame
  468. # [15:51] <Ms2ger> Maybe if you come and take my exam tomorrow? :)
  469. # [15:52] <zcorpan> i don't think you'd actually want me to
  470. # [15:53] <Ms2ger> I'm not sure I'd want myself to either :)
  471. # [15:53] <Ms2ger> Anyway
  472. # [15:53] * Ms2ger revises
  473. # [15:54] <ondras> so, <embed> vs. <object> w.r.t. flash
  474. # [15:54] <ondras> what is the recommended way, forgetting IEs and so on?
  475. # [15:55] <jgraham> "don't use flash"
  476. # [15:58] <ondras> yeah, well, this option is a no-go apparently
  477. # [15:58] <ondras> judging from the percentage of my users that do not support a webgl-based solution
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  483. # [16:08] <annevk> zcorpan: it complicates the impl of EventSource
  484. # [16:08] <zcorpan> ondras: do you need fallback content?
  485. # [16:08] <annevk> zcorpan: unless you're suggesting the URL parser should hook into some global state to figure out if there's an override encoding in scope...
  486. # [16:09] <annevk> which seems like poor design
  487. # [16:10] <zcorpan> annevk: yeah i agree that it complicates the impl of EventSource, at least in theory
  488. # [16:10] <zcorpan> annevk: but it seems marginal
  489. # [16:10] <annevk> it seems better if EventSource works the same across realms
  490. # [16:11] <annevk> hah, did you see that? I'm arguing for consistency!
  491. # [16:11] <ondras> zcorpan: no
  492. # [16:11] <ondras> zcorpan: I actually want to build that DOM via JS (createElement etc)
  493. # [16:12] <zcorpan> ondras: do you need it to be secure in case the linked content isn't actually flash?
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  495. # [16:13] <zcorpan> annevk: yeah so it's either consistent with EventSource in different places or it's consistent with <a href> in the same doc
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  497. # [16:15] <ondras> zcorpan: no, I host/author that content myself
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  499. # [16:15] <zcorpan> ondras: then embed is probably simplest and most compatible
  500. # [16:16] <annevk> zcorpan: if you have a URL you're going to use for EventSource, it seems better if it's consistent across EventSource
  501. # [16:16] <ondras> zcorpan: and some differences beweetn embed and object, so I can see why to pick one and not the other?
  502. # [16:16] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, so, did that monk actually work for MPAA?
  503. # [16:17] <annevk> zcorpan: the problem with <a> is that it's not even consistent with <a> in a nested browsing context
  504. # [16:18] * jorendorff is now known as jorendorff_away
  505. # [16:19] <zcorpan> ondras: embed doesn't support fallback content, object does. object has an attribute called typemustmatch that protects against attacks where the linked content is of an unexpected type. embed is terser/easier to set params. embed has better interop i think
  506. # [16:20] <ondras> okay, thanks a lot!
  507. # [16:21] <zcorpan> np
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  509. # [16:23] <zcorpan> annevk: i don't follow why that is a problem with <a>
  510. # [16:23] <annevk> zcorpan: I have a URL, I hand it to Google Maps or some such, and now it's a different URL
  511. # [16:24] <annevk> zcorpan: if I'm not careful anyway
  512. # [16:26] <zcorpan> annevk: ok, yeah
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  514. # [16:27] <zcorpan> time for coffee. see you :-)
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  517. # [16:35] <gsnedders> Is there any actually good list of problems with relying on reference implementations anywhere, or am I going to have to ad lib this?
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  519. # [16:40] <Ms2ger> Write it, publish it
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  523. # [16:46] <gsnedders> Is a reference implementation actually more likely to have bugs than a spec?
  524. # [16:48] <jgraham> Well usually people don't bother to finish it
  525. # [16:48] <Ms2ger> Do people usually finish specs? :)
  526. # [16:48] <jgraham> But I would imagine the need to run on a real machine makes bugs more likely
  527. # [16:48] <Ms2ger> I know I am bad at that, at least :)
  528. # [16:51] <gsnedders> https://gist.github.com/gsnedders/7e85c83e697e81c69432
  529. # [16:52] <gsnedders> Comments, suggested other reasons why they suck, all welcome.
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  533. # [16:56] <annevk> So from my experience reverse engineering features and writing down their details it's awesome to have an implementation
  534. # [16:56] <annevk> So I disagree with point 3
  535. # [16:56] <gsnedders> Is it better than having a spec with multiple independent impls, though?
  536. # [16:57] <gsnedders> And why does that have to be a reference impl?
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  538. # [16:57] <jgraham> Huh? Given that you have to create an implementation you would rather have an existing implementation than an existing spec (but no implementation)?
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  540. # [16:58] <gsnedders> I can't even parse what jgraham just said.
  541. # [16:58] <annevk> gsnedders: I don't really care about what kind of implementation it is
  542. # [16:58] <annevk> gsnedders: html5lib was useful, some people labeled it reference, perhaps incorrectly
  543. # [16:58] <annevk> gsnedders: and the more the merrier, of course :-)
  544. # [16:58] <gsnedders> annevk: It's not normative in any sense.
  545. # [16:59] <annevk> gsnedders: a reference implementation is normative?
  546. # [16:59] <annevk> gsnedders: ew
  547. # [16:59] <annevk> gsnedders: are there even people arguing in favor of that?
  548. # [16:59] <gsnedders> Yes.
  549. # [16:59] <Ms2ger> ...
  550. # [16:59] <jgraham> It was useful, but given we wanted to create it I would have preferred to have the spec than, say, hsivonen's implementation to work from
  551. # [16:59] <gsnedders> annevk: I'd consider a "reference implementation" normative by definition.
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  553. # [17:00] <annevk> I'm just saying I like to have a spec and an impl
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  555. # [17:00] <annevk> Not either alone
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  557. # [17:01] <gsnedders> I'm arguing the W3C's requirement of having two independent impls is better than having a single reference impl.
  558. # [17:01] <Ms2ger> Yay, someone making arguments for <rtc> on www-style
  559. # [17:01] <gsnedders> Essentially.
  560. # [17:01] <annevk> The other person in that argument is insane
  561. # [17:02] <annevk> "insane" but still
  562. # [17:02] <Ms2ger> Eh, so am I, so that doesn't say much ;)
  563. # [17:02] <annevk> Ms2ger: why not? ;)
  564. # [17:02] <gsnedders> :)
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  567. # [17:06] <darobin> Ms2ger: where? I'm seeing an argument for <rbc> for not for <rtc>
  568. # [17:07] <darobin> no one is adding <rbc> :)
  569. # [17:07] <Ms2ger> For double-sided ruby, I think not <rbc>, but <rtc> is necessary, as
  570. # [17:07] <Ms2ger> follows.
  571. # [17:07] <Ms2ger> <ruby>Base<rtc>text A</rtc><rtc>text B</rtc></ruby>
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  576. # [17:20] <gsnedders> https://gist.github.com/gsnedders/7e85c83e697e81c69432 — anything else I ought add before publishing it?
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  592. # [17:44] <astearns> gsnedders: "different implementations likely have to interoperate" is true with a reference implementation as well. What about "each implementation has to match the spec"
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  594. # [17:50] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: dunno who that monk worked for. All we did was talk about smoke. I showed him how to make a pipe out of a coke can, which he thought was pretty cool
  595. # [17:50] <smola> gsnedders: I would say your second point is equivalent to a ambiguous wording on a spec ;)
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  597. # [17:50] <smola> (i.e. specs can contain bugs too)
  598. # [17:50] <gsnedders> astearns: There is definitely the point that a reference implementation can easily become the only implementation, so they don't necessarily have to interoperate.
  599. # [17:51] <gsnedders> smola: Yeah, I was trying to pick something where if it occured in a spec it would just have totally undefined behaviour. Which null pointer dereferences are, really.
  600. # [17:51] <smola> gsnedders: fair enough
  601. # [17:52] <astearns> gsnedders: even if there's only one implementation, you get better review of that one implementation by expecting it to conform to an external spec
  602. # [17:53] <gsnedders> astearns: Yeah, I'm not questioning that
  603. # [17:53] <gsnedders> astearns: Just trying to justify the point I was trying to make :)
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  606. # [17:57] <gsnedders> astearns: Better put now?
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  608. # [17:58] <astearns> gsnedders: yep
  609. # [17:59] <gsnedders> On the other hand, I still feel like the conclusion has the obvious come back of, "but a reference impleemntation defines formally all behaviours, and hence the spec cannot have ambiguity".
  610. # [18:03] <TabAtkins> "defines formally all bugs that I wrote because I am a fallible human"
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  614. # [18:05] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: *rewrites as the generic "author" and steals that*
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  618. # [18:09] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Comments on the conclusion now written based on that welcome :)
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  630. # [18:37] <smola> MikeSmith: there you go: https://github.com/smola/galimatias/commit/6266c09c2ffe2961b4947554f6c38b33dad015ae
  631. # [18:37] <smola> everything has an actual meaningful error now
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  634. # [18:41] * MikeSmith looks
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  636. # [18:42] <MikeSmith> wow man
  637. # [18:42] <MikeSmith> you work fast :-)
  638. # [18:42] <MikeSmith> very nice
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  640. # [18:44] <MikeSmith> smola: I will try to get this integrated in local validator workspace soon, as a replacement for the Jena URI checker we're using now
  641. # [18:44] <MikeSmith> *in my local validator workspace
  642. # [18:46] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  643. # [18:46] <smola> MikeSmith: thanks! please, let me know if I can help
  644. # [18:47] <smola> btw, you'll need that latest SNAPSHOT: https://oss.sonatype.org/content/repositories/snapshots/io/mola/galimatias/galimatias/0.0.2-SNAPSHOT/
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  652. # [18:56] <MikeSmith> smola: OK will do
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  654. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: I like the conclusion.
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  681. # [20:11] * Hixie ponders how best to make a list of all events mentioned in the HTML spec
  682. # [20:13] <jory> In a similar vein, does anyone have a good technique for registering a simple listener (just a logger) for all possible events?
  683. # [20:14] <jory> (i.e. just to get a better sense, while debugging, of the interactions between a series of events)
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  685. # [20:14] <Ms2ger> No way to do that from a web page
  686. # [20:15] <Ms2ger> Fx has an API for chrome scripts iirc
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  688. # [20:28] <jory> Does anyone know if Mobile Safari fires any particular event when it is changing the zoom level, or if there is a way to force a zoom to happen?
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  701. # [20:59] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Mark them all up in a Bikeshed/Shepherd-compatible way, and we can auto-gen one for you.
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  710. # [21:18] <Hixie> TabAtkins: it's the marking them up part that's the part i'm hoping to automagicate
  711. # [21:18] <Hixie> TabAtkins: once i have it in a computer-readable form, the rest is easy :-)
  712. # [21:18] <TabAtkins> Right, but if you do it *my* way, then it's easy for *me* as well.
  713. # [21:18] <TabAtkins> Because I can just say <a event>activate</a> or whatever and it works.
  714. # [21:19] <Hixie> i'm not sure we're trying to solve the same problem here
  715. # [21:19] <Hixie> the cross-referencing is already all done
  716. # [21:19] <TabAtkins> I'm trying to solve a problem vaguely related to yours that helps me more.
  717. # [21:19] <Hixie> hehe
  718. # [21:19] <Hixie> what's the problem you're trying to solve?
  719. # [21:19] * Hixie briefly ponders whether there might be some value in having a single document that documents all the events of the web platform, but puts the bong down just in time
  720. # [21:20] <TabAtkins> MOAR LINK TARGETS IN A BIKESHEDDABLE FORM
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  722. # [21:20] <Hixie> oh so you could cross-reference from CSS to HTML?
  723. # [21:20] <TabAtkins> (Which means, mainly, that Shepherd can parse them and know what the definition type is.)
  724. # [21:20] <TabAtkins> Bikeshed is for more than CSS!
  725. # [21:20] <TabAtkins> But yes.
  726. # [21:20] <Hixie> what's the format you need me to expose for that to be easy for you?
  727. # [21:21] <Hixie> maybe i can do that at the same time
  728. # [21:21] <Hixie> (is there documentation somewhere for bikeshed and shepherd?)
  729. # [21:22] <Hixie> (source code would do)
  730. # [21:22] * Hixie is considering transitioning away from anolis, but mainly because anolis can't handle 5MB+ docs fast
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  732. # [21:22] <TabAtkins> Yeah, docs are all at https://github.com/tabatkins/bikeshed
  733. # [21:22] <TabAtkins> I don't know if Bikeshed can handle 5MB fast either. probably not.
  734. # [21:23] <jory> TabAtkins: I really like your Github avatar.
  735. # [21:23] <TabAtkins> But I'd be willing to try.
  736. # [21:23] <TabAtkins> jory: Thanks! It's from Kate Beaton.
  737. # [21:23] <Hixie> (ideally i'd like a platform that's identical to anolis except not based on python or other slow ass interpreted languages...)
  738. # [21:23] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Welp, I've got you on the first, but not the second.
  739. # [21:23] <Hixie> yeah, wasn't suggesting bikeshed as solution
  740. # [21:24] <TabAtkins> So, to make things Shepherd-friendly, there are a few ways, depending on how explicit/unambiguous you wanna be.
  741. # [21:24] <Hixie> really i just need to put my fingers where my mouth is and implement an HTML parser and DOM in some compiled language
  742. # [21:24] <TabAtkins> 1. Add a data-dfn-type attribute to the <dfn> with one of the definition types: <https://github.com/tabatkins/bikeshed/blob/master/bikeshed/config.py> (the values in the dfnClassToType object).
  743. # [21:25] <TabAtkins> 2. Make the id start with the dfn class and a dash, from the same link (the keys in the dfnClassToType object).
  744. # [21:25] <TabAtkins> 3. Give them a class equal to the right dfn class.
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  746. # [21:25] <TabAtkins> Or, if it's a CSS term, just write in the right way, and Shepherd'll infer things (docs explain the right way).
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  748. # [21:27] <Hixie> so like <dfn data-dfn-type="event" id="event-load" class="event"><code>load</code></dfn> ?
  749. # [21:28] <TabAtkins> id=eventdef-load class=eventdef, but otherwise yes.
  750. # [21:28] <TabAtkins> But you only have to do one. ^_^
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  752. # [21:28] <Hixie> oh those are various options, ok
  753. # [21:28] <Hixie> sorry, thought it was a list of steps
  754. # [21:29] <Hixie> my bad
  755. # [21:29] <TabAtkins> Oh jeez, that would be terrible.
  756. # [21:29] <Hixie> yeah :-)
  757. # [21:29] <TabAtkins> Nah, it's documentation of all the various ways existing specs we want to parse have done it. ^_^
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  760. # [21:30] <Hixie> so i expect HTML will use <dfn data-x="event-load"><code>load</code></dfn> or <dfn data-x="event-media-load"><code>load</code></dfn>, where the "media-" part is for grouping related events (e.g. all the media element events), which might duplicate the names of some of the non-grouped events
  761. # [21:30] <Hixie> if you want to add support for that
  762. # [21:31] <TabAtkins> When you decide on something, tell me and I'll ping plinss. He's the one running Shepherd.
  763. # [21:31] <TabAtkins> So the "media" term is arbitrary?
  764. # [21:31] <Hixie> assume i'm going with the above. it's what everything does now.
  765. # [21:31] <Hixie> yeah
  766. # [21:31] <Hixie> (everything in HTML i mean)
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  769. # [21:32] <Hixie> looks like there's media, MediaController, input, appcache, socket, and worker
  770. # [21:32] <Hixie> currently
  771. # [21:33] <Hixie> not planning on adding any soon, but they are arbitrarily added as needed.
  772. # [21:33] <Hixie> basically it's just to prevent events in the worker section cross-referencing to events in the media section, etc.
  773. # [21:33] <TabAtkins> That's fine, just making sure they weren't a term that needs to be synced up against something else.
  774. # [21:34] <TabAtkins> Shepherd's data model supports definitions being "for" other definitions, to avoid collisions.
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  776. # [21:34] <Hixie> generally i try to use the same term as in data-x="attr-foo-name" and data-x="dom-foo-name", which is the element name for elements, and the interface name (usually) for IDL stuff
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  778. # [21:35] <Hixie> and concept-foo-name for non-concrete things like algorithms
  779. # [21:35] <Hixie> though when i can i just use longer names so i don't have to give a special cross-ref term at all
  780. # [21:35] <TabAtkins> Yeah, the shepherd way is <dfn data-dfn-type=attr data-dfn-for=foo>name</dfn> (or in Bikeshed's shorthand, <dfn attr for=foo>name</dfn>)
  781. # [21:35] <TabAtkins> So the relationship is machine-inferrable.
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  784. # [21:35] <Hixie> right
  785. # [21:36] <TabAtkins> The Anolis way of giving everything a globally unique xref name is bad. :/
  786. # [21:36] <Hixie> *shrug*
  787. # [21:36] <Hixie> it works ok
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  789. # [21:37] <TabAtkins> Yeah, while you're the only one working on it, or are willing to pull up the document you want to reference regularly to remind yourself of the naming pattern that spec author used.
  790. # [21:37] <Hixie> it's acutally helped in a couple of places, by preventing me from naming something in a confusing ambiguous fashion
  791. # [21:37] <Hixie> yeah it's terrible for cross-doc stuff
  792. # [21:37] <Hixie> notice the lack of any cross-doc stuff in HTML :-(
  793. # [21:38] <TabAtkins> Yup, and xdoc was the primary reason I started Bikeshed.
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  795. # [21:38] <Hixie> though i think the way i would want to do cross-doc references actually would be to just list the term as i use it and the term as the other spec uses it, in a single "dependencies" section
  796. # [21:38] <Hixie> the section actually exists in HTML now, just doesn't have the cross-refs
  797. # [21:39] <Hixie> but if i added them, it would allow for the preprocessor to automatically map from my terms to the other specs' terms
  798. # [21:39] <Hixie> without my having to keep looking up what the conventions were
  799. # [21:39] <Hixie> nor having to convert anyone else
  800. # [21:39] <Ms2ger> xref works fine in anolis
  801. # [21:39] <TabAtkins> Also doable in Bikeshed manually, but you haven't lived until you've written ''foo/auto'' and been auto-linked to the definition of the "auto" keyword for the "foo" property.
  802. # [21:39] <Hixie> and it would have the advantage of still being usable in print form
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  805. # [21:39] <TabAtkins> Or even better, been informed that you typo'd something, because "foo" has no "auto" value.
  806. # [21:39] <Hixie> my HTML publishing pipeline catches broken xrefs
  807. # [21:40] <Hixie> (i don't always notice, but...)
  808. # [21:40] <Hixie> (that's why there's a lot of data-x="" (with no value) -- it's telling my system that this isn't supposed to cross-ref)
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  810. # [21:40] <TabAtkins> Oh yeah, Anolis tries to cross-ref all inlines or something, right?
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  812. # [21:41] <Hixie> not all of them, only the ones that make sense
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  814. # [21:41] <Hixie> anyway. i think i need to pull out all occurences of the string (event-[^"]+), and somehow check if they're in <dfn> or not, and if they are... not sure what
  815. # [21:41] <Hixie> maybe just mark those that are, to start with
  816. # [21:41] <Hixie> little bit of perl should do nicely
  817. # [21:42] <TabAtkins> You crazy.
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  845. # [22:40] <jamesr__> annevk-cloud: why do you want event timestamps defined in the web perf WG instead of in the dom events spec?
  846. # [22:40] <jamesr__> seems kind of crazy
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  848. # [22:43] <annevk> jamesr__: I think it was some dependency thing
  849. # [22:43] <jamesr__> there's a typedef DOMHighResTimestamp, but that just means number in webidl
  850. # [22:43] <jamesr__> and the type is in a standalone spec that dom events could easily cite
  851. # [22:43] <annevk> doesn't it depend on navigate or fetch or some such?
  852. # [22:44] <jamesr__> the IDL is "typedef double DOMHighResTimeStamp;"
  853. # [22:45] <jamesr__> the window.performance.now() interface depends on navigation, but you wouldn't need to reference that normatively in dom events
  854. # [22:46] <jamesr__> dom events would need to expose an attribute of that type and then describe the timebase in a way that could be implemented to match up with window.performance.now() / webaudio / whatever else is using this clock
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  857. # [22:47] <jamesr__> webaudio's language is probably too loose but it has the same idea
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  864. # [23:00] <jamesr__> (i don't really see much value in typedeffing different things to double in WebIDL - the type itself doesn't have any interesting meaning. the value itself does, but the type doesn't help understand the value)
  865. # [23:01] * jorendorff is now known as jorendorff_away
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  869. # [23:11] * Domenic_ shakes fist at WebIDL's number-types clusterfuck
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  880. # [23:30] <annevk> jamesr__: file a bug?
  881. # [23:30] <annevk> jamesr__: can take a look tomorrow
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  883. # [23:35] <jamesr__> annevk: last thread was http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2012OctDec/0028.html
  884. # [23:35] <smola> annevk: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/blob/master/url/urltestdata.txt issues with this should be reported to GitHub Issues or...?
  885. # [23:35] <annevk> smola: not sure, ask zcorpan / jgraham
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  887. # [23:36] <smola> zcorpan: just in time
  888. # [23:36] <smola> 23:39 < smola> annevk:
  889. # [23:36] <smola> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/blob/master/url/urltestdata.txt issues with this should be reported to GitHub Issues or...?
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  904. # Session Close: Thu Jan 09 00:00:00 2014

The end :)