/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-01-21 / end

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2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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93. # [03:46] <GPHemsley> annevk-cloud: Hmm, looks like the distinction got lost in translation: https://github.com/whatwg/mimesniff/commit/24098021f526233ad5ba7f69eaf387b696b7032a#diff-1feda49b40370635faef8b655f144f64L1601
94. # [03:50] <annevk> And nobody noticed for over a year :/
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99. # [04:08] <foolip> jgraham: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/531#issuecomment-32817873
100. # [04:10] <foolip> jgraham: the final word on video mimesniff is TBD in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11984
101. # [04:13] <GPHemsley> annevk: You will find that to be the case in many problems with the mimesniff spec.
102. # [04:13] <GPHemsley> Though it appears to be experiencing a renaissance.
103. # [04:15] <GPHemsley> annevk: BTW, I commented more extensively on the relevant bug.
104. # [04:16] <annevk> That's not really the relevant bug, but okay
105. # [04:16] <annevk> I recommend going through the specification relative to the original specification again to make sure there are no other mistakes like this
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110. # [04:23] <GPHemsley> annevk: Is there a more relevant bug?
111. # [04:24] <GPHemsley> annevk: Also, mimesniff is pretty far down on my list of priorities at the moment. If people raise specific issues, I'm happy to look into them, but I don't have time to re-audit the spec right now.
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140. # [06:15] <foolip> anyone know if Denis Ah-Kang (deniak) is on IRC?
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142. # [06:21] <heycam> foolip, he is denis on irc.w3.org:6667
143. # [06:23] <foolip> heycam: thanks!
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163. # [07:18] <MikeSmith> foolip: Denis is around on the #testing channel when he's online
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165. # [07:19] <MikeSmith> on irc.w3.org as heycam mentioned
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168. # [07:20] <MikeSmith> Reunion Island time
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218. # [09:59] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, you should give https://github.com/foolip access to w-p-t
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222. # [10:19] <Ms2ger> jgraham, what's up with https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/239?
223. # [10:21] <MikeSmith> foolip: you got push access to w-p-t now
224. # [10:22] <Ms2ger> Ta
225. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: thank you
226. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> so is http-equiv="Content-Style-Type" in the spec now?
227. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24341
228. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> eh is Content-Style-Type even an acutal header name
229. # [10:26] <Ms2ger> Rings a vague bell
230. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> yeah I see it around now
231. # [10:27] <Ms2ger> 'inline styles ignored using Content-Style-Type of "text/ccs"'
232. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> yeah but why do people use this
233. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> they think it has some effect?
234. # [10:30] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: because in the future, CSS might go away and we might use XSLT in style attributes
235. # [10:30] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: so better declare CSS
236. # [10:30] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: as if the default could ever change
237. # [10:30] <hsivonen> also, good luck introducing another styling language for the Web
238. # [10:30] * hsivonen waves at Dart and VBScript over in the <script> land
239. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> heh
240. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> maybe we should remove the HTML4 spec from the web and just make its URL redirect
241. # [10:33] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/present/styles.html#default-style
242. # [10:33] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: whoa. a normative requirement in HTML4.
243. # [10:34] <MikeSmith> yeah, a rare normative requirement
244. # [10:34] <MikeSmith> and unsurprisingly a bad misguided one
245. # [10:34] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: and the User Agent side is only a "should" but the author side is "must"
246. # [10:34] <hsivonen> totally backwards
247. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> yeah. and there's not one sentence in that whole section that's right, as far as matching reality
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250. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> in other news I see there was a recent message from ArtB saying that there's no plan to implement Server-Sent Events support in IE
251. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> I guess I had assumed they already supported it
252. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> kinda sucks for anybody who might want to actually develop something using it
253. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> I guess they probably would argue that developers should just use WebSocket instead
254. # [10:45] <foolip> MikeSmith: thanks! what are the ground rules for merging PRs? is anything with an accepted review OK to merge, even if you are the author or reviewer?
255. # [10:46] <foolip> hsivonen: I'm happy to see you're going ahead with Big5 in Gecko
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257. # [10:47] <hsivonen> foolip: well, I'm seeing if emk wants to go ahead. if not, I might get to it once I've dealt with goals for this quarter, first
258. # [10:49] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, but does dbaron's desk implement that requirement?
259. # [10:49] <foolip> hsivonen: good luck in any event, now that the discussion part seems to be over
260. # [10:55] <odinho> wtf, no sse? Well ok, it'll just never work in IE then. :)
261. # [10:55] <odinho> I use SSE all over the place.
262. # [10:55] <Ms2ger> foolip, a big thanks for the work you've been doing, btw
263. # [10:55] <Ms2ger> Can I send you chocolate? :)
264. # [10:56] <odinho> foolip: Yeah, you can merge as long as reviewed.
265. # [10:58] <MikeSmith> foolip: the rules for w-p-t are to do what jgraham and Ms2ger say
266. # [10:58] <Ms2ger> I say: feel free to merge anything that's accepted in critic
267. # [10:58] <MikeSmith> foolip: but as far as I know it's OK for you to merge your own PR if it's been reviewed by others and accepte
268. # [10:58] <odinho> And jgraham has already said that, so yea.
269. # [10:59] <Ms2ger> jgraham / zcorpan: feel like reviewing https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/30 ? :)
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274. # [11:05] <darobin> oh wow
275. # [11:05] <darobin> http-equiv="Content-Style-Type" is a must for authors but a should for authoring tools, and style@type is required anyway
276. # [11:06] <darobin> that's just... wow
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278. # [11:13] <zcorpan> darobin: according to which spec?
279. # [11:13] <Ms2ger> HTML4, I guess
280. # [11:14] <darobin> zcorpan: I was reading the scrollback and looking at HTML4 http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/present/styles.html
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282. # [11:14] <Ms2ger> darobin, you should write w3c html5 in that style... Clearly the easiest way to get to rec
283. # [11:15] <darobin> Ms2ger: yeah, man, that would be awesome
284. # [11:15] <darobin> I could be done by the end of the week
285. # [11:15] <Ms2ger> And then do some test reviews :)
286. # [11:15] <darobin> make sure that the assertions aren't testable — that makes the test writing process much simpler
287. # [11:15] <darobin> who needs reviews? if you make the spec vague enough the tests are *obviously* right
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289. # [11:16] <Ms2ger> Well, you're done with the w3c tests immediately, so you can move on to the whatwg tests
290. # [11:17] <darobin> now you're making it sound like work
291. # [11:17] <Ms2ger> Yeah, but look at the amount of work I saved you. Surely you can do some in return :)
292. # [11:18] <darobin> Ms2ger: I dunno, are you familiar with the free rider problem in game theory? :)
293. # [11:19] <Ms2ger> I wouldn't dare to suggest you are one
294. # [11:19] <darobin> sweet Ms2ger
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300. # [11:24] <karlcow> darobin: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2014Jan/0007.html
301. # [11:24] <karlcow> mail from the past
302. # [11:25] <darobin> karlcow: oh man, that's priceless! thanks :)
303. # [11:25] <darobin> "Conforming user agents must correctly map to ISO 10646 all characters in any character encodings that they recognize (or they must behave as if they did)."
304. # [11:26] <zcorpan> i had forgotten how fun it is to decrypt RSA (the <video> RSA, not that other thing)
305. # [11:42] <foolip> zcorpan: yeah I had some proper nostalgia looking at these tests again
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308. # [11:49] <foolip> Ms2ger: will plh magically see r=plh?
309. # [11:49] <Ms2ger> How so?
310. # [11:50] <Ms2ger> He mentioned those changes were okay on github
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312. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> in Critic you can assign people to review particular PRs right?
313. # [11:51] <Ms2ger> Yeah
314. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> or even parts of them
315. # [11:51] <foolip> Ms2ger: oh, I thought it meant you wanted him to review the rest
316. # [11:52] <Ms2ger> Well, that would be nice of him, but I don't expect it :)
317. # [11:55] <foolip> Ms2ger: will you?
318. # [11:55] <Ms2ger> Not right now
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320. # [12:06] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-perf/2014Jan/0027.html
321. # [12:06] <MikeSmith> TR strikes again
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323. # [12:06] <MikeSmith> dunno if you added that to the wiki already
324. # [12:06] <MikeSmith> if not I will
325. # [12:09] * icaaq is now known as icaaq|afck
326. # [12:10] <MikeSmith> oh but in this case the guy was reviewing a Rec
327. # [12:11] <Ms2ger> At least he didn't punch anybody in the face
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332. # [12:16] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Not sure what's up with that review. I guess you mean the missing PR? I can fix that
333. # [12:16] <Ms2ger> Yeah
334. # [12:16] <jgraham> Although I don't know which one it is
335. # [12:16] <jgraham> (I could look, but maybe you already did)
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338. # [12:18] <Ms2ger> jgraham, https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/238
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344. # [12:23] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Fixed
345. # [12:23] <jgraham> Looks like it got dropped and a new review was created
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348. # [12:26] <Ms2ger> jgraham, thanks
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374. # [13:59] <sangwhan> Silly question, if window.close() is implemented as a asynchronous function - what kind of side effects could that have? (Can't think of any, except for some strange scripts that run code after window.close() is called getting cut off - not sure if that's a really valid use case)
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379. # [14:12] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Shall I merge?
380. # [14:12] * Ms2ger looks
381. # [14:12] <Ms2ger> I'll squash and merge
382. # [14:13] <jgraham> OK
383. # [14:13] <jgraham> Thanks
384. # [14:13] <Ms2ger> And thank you!
385. # [14:19] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Fancy looking at https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/268 while you are there? Looks like the submitter deleted their repo, but I don't know if there's anything we can salvage
386. # [14:20] <Ms2ger> Possibly, yes
387. # [14:20] <Ms2ger> I'll get to it eventually :)
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389. # [14:22] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, I assume I can ignore https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/307? :)
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392. # [14:23] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Sure, no particular rush
393. # [14:23] <jgraham> I just get an email once an hour telling me it couldn't update the branch ;)
394. # [14:24] <Ms2ger> Heh
395. # [14:24] * Quits: darobin (~darobin@78.109.80.74) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
396. # [14:24] * jgraham "solves" that by disabling tracking
397. # [14:25] <jgraham> BTW if anyone has a review that they think I am the right person for, now is a good time
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399. # [14:27] <Ms2ger> There's actually something else I wanted to ask you... Is it possible to make an existing review track another repo, for the testtwf people who went missing in the months it took to get their PRs reviewed?
400. # [14:28] <jgraham> Pretty sure it's possible, not sure there is UI for it
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403. # [14:28] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: yeah
404. # [14:28] <Ms2ger> Alright, I'll look at pulling some of those into the w3c repo, then
405. # [14:29] <jgraham> Ms2ger: You can click "they will review this" and stop getting email, if you like
406. # [14:29] * Ms2ger tries that
407. # [14:29] <jgraham> Or maybe you still get email, but you are a watcher not a reviewer
408. # [14:30] <jgraham> Ah, you probably have to click "Exclude me, please" to stop getting email
409. # [14:31] <zcorpan> it should say "shut up!"
410. # [14:31] * Ms2ger tries that too
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413. # [14:35] <jgraham> zcorpan: Tell jl :p
414. # [14:35] <jgraham> zcorpan: You will take https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/604 ?
415. # [14:35] <zcorpan> jgraham: yes
416. # [14:35] <jgraham> zcorpan: Great, thanks
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418. # [14:43] <Ms2ger> jgraham, if you're still looking, https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/608 :)
419. # [14:46] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Did we decide anything about ArtB's readme files?
420. # [14:46] <jgraham> https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/293 should be closed one way or another
421. # [14:48] <Ms2ger> I think I asked for a link to the whatwg spec in another review
422. # [14:48] <Ms2ger> Either that or I dreamed about ArtB
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424. # [14:51] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Hmm
425. # [14:51] <jgraham> Anyway, other review done
426. # [14:51] <Ms2ger> Thanks
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428. # [14:51] * Ms2ger creates another
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430. # [14:53] <jgraham> Ms2ger: You are the ideal reviewer for https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/523 btw :)
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432. # [14:55] <Ms2ger> I even want to do it
433. # [14:55] * Joins: shaunbaker (~shaunbake@2001:67c:90:7ff:89a3:4923:9cfe:62e5)
434. # [14:56] <Ms2ger> But not right now
435. # [14:56] <gsnedders> You mean you have something better to do?
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437. # [14:57] <Ms2ger> Well, yes
438. # [14:57] <Ms2ger> I'd kinda like to pass my next exam
439. # [14:57] <Ms2ger> jgraham, https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/609
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441. # [14:59] <Ms2ger> With that done I'm pretty happy to start merging the other FileAPI PRs, I think
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443. # [15:03] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: People always told me exams weren't important!
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445. # [15:04] <Ms2ger> They're important in the sense that I'll have more time for useful work this summer if I pass it now :)
446. # [15:04] <darobin_> gsnedders: maybe they're medical exams
447. # [15:04] <darobin_> Ms2ger: you have a job, why the exams? :)
448. # [15:04] <Ms2ger> Nah, I have a hobby
449. # [15:05] * Ms2ger moves back to the lovely world of the halting problem
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451. # [15:09] * jorendorff_away is now known as jorendorff
452. # [15:09] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Have you solved it yet?
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454. # [15:11] <jgraham> darobin_: Don't set him down that road, lest he go all Swedish on us
455. # [15:12] <jgraham> (half of Sweden seem to have a job and be 2 courses away from finishing their degree. And have been like that for a decade)
456. # [15:12] * Joins: [[zz]] (~zz]]@node-1a4c.pool-101-109.dynamic.totbb.net)
457. # [15:12] <darobin_> jgraham: oh, I didn't know that — guess that makes me swedish :)
458. # [15:12] * darobin_ is now known as darobin
459. # [15:13] <MikeSmith> q+ to say that OASIS WGs are all self-run
460. # [15:14] <jgraham> MikeSmith: It's OK you can just say it :)
461. # [15:14] <MikeSmith> q+ to say there is no process at OASIS, and no oversight -- they have nothing like team contacts
462. # [15:14] <MikeSmith> oops
463. # [15:14] <gsnedders> jgraham: Which arguably shows degrees are not considered important in Sweden
464. # [15:17] <jgraham> gsnedders: I think s/Sweden/Opera/ in both our sentences to reflect sample bias.
465. # [15:17] <jgraham> And I'm not sure it does show that
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473. # [15:43] <Ms2ger> jgraham, also Finland, from my sample of {smaug}
474. # [15:45] * Ms2ger grumbles
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476. # [15:45] <Ms2ger> With all those reviews being done, we're still at 126 open PRs
477. # [15:46] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Can you put your script somewhere?
478. # [15:46] <jgraham> Even just as a gist
479. # [15:46] <Ms2ger> Yes
480. # [15:46] <jgraham> or pastebin
481. # [15:46] * Ms2ger looks for the link he gave plh
482. # [15:47] <Ms2ger> https://gist.github.com/Ms2ger/8440074
483. # [15:48] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Thanks
484. # [15:48] <Ms2ger> (You still need to fill in your own key)
485. # [15:48] <jgraham> You don't want everyone to use yours?! ;)
486. # [15:49] <Ms2ger> I don't think I'd like that :)
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489. # [15:58] <Ms2ger> 125!
490. # [15:59] <Ms2ger> (Same as 26 December and 17 January)
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492. # [16:01] <Ms2ger> A final useless statistic: merge one more PR and we're at the lowest level this year
493. # [16:02] <Ms2ger> Really final: 7 more and we're at the lowest after the last testtwf
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495. # [16:06] <MikeSmith> I have one open that I'll try to finish
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497. # [16:07] <MikeSmith> Media Source Extensions interface tests
498. # [16:07] <MikeSmith> which plh made review comments on already
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503. # [16:29] <sangwhan> MikeSmith: These are just sanity checks if the interface/members exist for MSE, right?
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515. # [17:11] <DavidBruant> darobin_ yo
516. # [17:11] <darobin_> hi DavidBruant!
517. # [17:11] <DavidBruant> so we were saying iframe@sandbox tests
518. # [17:11] * darobin_ is in a meeting, but Ms2ger can reply :)
519. # [17:11] <annevk-cloud> Whoa, a rare DavidBruant appears
520. # [17:13] <DavidBruant> so I want to add tests about iframe@sandbox
521. # [17:13] <Ms2ger> Ha
522. # [17:13] <Ms2ger> I think I've seen some
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524. # [17:13] <Ms2ger> https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/160
525. # [17:13] <DavidBruant> on Twitter, darobin_ suggested to put them in https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/tree/master/html/semantics/embedded-content-0/the-iframe-element
526. # [17:13] <Ms2ger> Want to review those?
527. # [17:14] <DavidBruant> I've seen a bunch a submissions from Microsoft as well
528. # [17:14] <DavidBruant> I have particular things in mind like code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=277084
529. # [17:14] <DavidBruant> oops
530. # [17:14] <Ms2ger> I haven't, but feel free to review those too :)
531. # [17:14] <DavidBruant> I meant https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=907892
532. # [17:15] <DavidBruant> I'm also looking at everything that could get in the way of https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=961689
533. # [17:15] <DavidBruant> I think named accessed will be such a thing
534. # [17:17] <Ms2ger> Feel free to submit extra tests too, but I'd really like those reviewed :)
535. # [17:17] <DavidBruant> I'm worried that sandboxing doesn't change anything to the result of http://people.mozilla.org/~bholley/testcases/cross-origin-named-window/test.html
536. # [17:18] <DavidBruant> And I felt that given I'm spending the time looking into this issue, I'd rather make web-platform-tests from the get go
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538. # [17:20] <jgraham> DavidBruant: ++
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540. # [17:21] <DavidBruant> I'll look into reviewing the tests you're referring to ('cause sandboxed iframes are AWESOME), but later...
541. # [17:21] <Ms2ger> DavidBruant++
542. # [17:21] <DavidBruant> ... I need to get the existing test running first *cough cough*
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544. # [17:22] <DavidBruant> (for whatever reason, I fail to generate the MANIFEST.json file)
545. # [17:22] <jgraham> DavidBruant: How are you trying to generate it?
546. # [17:22] <DavidBruant> Ms2ger should the review happen on the critic thing or github?
547. # [17:22] <DavidBruant> jgraham python tools/scripts/manifest.py MANIFEST.json
548. # [17:22] <Ms2ger> I prefer on critic
549. # [17:23] <jgraham> DavidBruant: Preferably critic, but github if you really don't like learning better tools
550. # [17:23] <jgraham> DavidBruant: That looks sensible. What is happening?
551. # [17:23] <DavidBruant> I get this message "INFO:Web platform tests:Working directory not clean, adding local changes", but I'm not sure why or what to do
552. # [17:23] <DavidBruant> "if you really don't like learning better tools" :-D
553. # [17:23] <DavidBruant> ok, I'll do critic
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555. # [17:26] <jgraham> DavidBruant: Ah, right, yeah, the error message there isn't very clear
556. # [17:26] <jgraham> If you have changes in your git it won't write the manifest file at the moment
557. # [17:27] <jgraham> s/git/working tree/
558. # [17:27] <DavidBruant> hmm... git status gives me "modified: tools/pywebsocket (untracked content)"
559. # [17:28] <DavidBruant> not sure I did that...
560. # [17:28] <jgraham> Hmm
561. # [17:28] <MikeSmith> sangwhan: yeah specifically they test whether the implementation of the interface/members conforms to the WebIDL definition for the interface in the spec
562. # [17:28] <jgraham> try seeing what git status in that directory gives
563. # [17:29] <DavidBruant> jgraham a bunch of src/mod_pywebsocket untracked files
564. # [17:30] <DavidBruant> was that all generated via python serve.py?
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566. # [17:31] * DavidBruant knows nothing about python and feels helpless :-/
567. # [17:31] <MikeSmith> sosangwhan: I wouldn't call them "sanity checks". they're conformance checks
568. # [17:32] <annevk> DavidBruant: it's like JavaScript really, without all the braces
569. # [17:33] <DavidBruant> :-)
570. # [17:33] <DavidBruant> It all looks related to the pywebsocket submodule?
571. # [17:34] <jgraham> DavidBruant: That seems very odd. No idea why there should be files there
572. # [17:34] <jgraham> try reset --hard?
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575. # [17:39] <Ms2ger> jgraham, they're all .pyc's
576. # [17:41] <DavidBruant> Obviously now python serve.py doesnt work cause "ImportError: No module named mod_pywebsocket"
577. # [17:41] <DavidBruant> :-p
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580. # [17:43] <jgraham> Hmm, if pyc files aren't in the gitignore that seems problematic
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582. # [17:43] <jgraham> DavidBruant: It is hard to work out what state your repo is in, but maybe from the top level directory try git submodule update --recursive
583. # [17:44] <DavidBruant> yep
584. # [17:44] <DavidBruant> I have the tests running now :-) Thanks for the help
585. # [17:44] <Ms2ger> jgraham, what's up with https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/15?
586. # [17:44] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
587. # [17:44] <arunranga> annevk, is the idea of taking a reference during the parsing URL steps the correct approach to https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17765 ?
588. # [17:45] <DavidBruant> I'll file an issue to w3c/web-platform-tests with the relevant parts of our chat
589. # [17:45] <Ms2ger> dglazkov, hey, had time to look at those tests already?
590. # [17:46] <dglazkov> Ms2ger: no, I was holidaying.
591. # [17:46] <annevk> The other idea I had was that after parse, you check the table, and then if the identifier is not in the table, you return the URL "blob:invalid" or some such. Of course, that means that if you parse the URL again things will fail, but I guess that's the same with your approach, no?
592. # [17:46] <annevk> arunranga: what do you think of that?
593. # [17:47] <annevk> arunranga: well, I guess the UA would be required to keep additional state around anyway.
594. # [17:47] <jgraham> DavidBruant: Excellent
595. # [17:47] <arunranga> annevk, by "after parse" do you mean, fetch? One of my concerns is that since fetch happens asynchronously, it may have an invalidated ref but the one held during parse might be valid.
596. # [17:48] <dglazkov> also critic is scary. It sends me email and tells me to do stuff. I worry for my safety
597. # [17:48] <Ms2ger> :D
598. # [17:48] <DavidBruant> jgraham how can I easily run one test ?
599. # [17:48] <Ms2ger> dglazkov, you don't want to know what happens if you don't do those reviews... :)
600. # [17:49] <dglazkov> 8-{
601. # [17:49] <jgraham> DavidBruant: --include /url/of/test.html
602. # [17:49] <DavidBruant> jgraham on serve.py?
603. # [17:49] <annevk> arunranga: no I meant at the end of URL parsing, before the URL parser returns, sorry
604. # [17:49] <jgraham> DavidBruant: Oh, sorry, no, I was thinking of my test runner
605. # [17:49] <jgraham> DavidBruant: Which you presumably don't have :)
606. # [17:50] <annevk> arunranga: I agree it needs to happen either during parsing or as a wrapper for parsing
607. # [17:50] <jgraham> DavidBruant: How are you running > 1 test?
608. # [17:50] <DavidBruant> jgraham, I thing the "Run tests under path" will be enough
609. # [17:50] <annevk> arunranga: the main architecture problem I see is that people are used to pass URLs around as strings
610. # [17:50] <DavidBruant> I'll pick the right directory and run the few tests there
611. # [17:50] <annevk> arunranga: and this would require URLs to be passed around as objects
612. # [17:50] <arunranga> annevk, in general, I'm wondering if there are cases where something is not in the Blob URL Store owing to a synchronous URL.revokeObjectURL or a global script cleanup steps (where the list is purged) but it is still something that parse holds.
613. # [17:50] <DavidBruant> jgraham, I use http://web-platform.test:8000/tools/runner/index.html
614. # [17:50] <DavidBruant> (locally of course)
615. # [17:51] <arunranga> annevk, yes, that's the problem.
616. # [17:51] <DavidBruant> As suggested at https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests#test-runner
617. # [17:52] <jgraham> DavidBruant: Right, then enter the path in the little box
618. # [17:52] <DavidBruant> yeah, I'll do that. Thanks :-)
619. # [17:53] <jgraham> (or, if it is just one test, just load the URL)
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624. # [17:59] <DavidBruant> Filed https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/issues/544
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628. # [18:05] <jgraham> Ms2ger: I don't know, what is up with that PR?
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637. # [18:08] <Ms2ger> jgraham, is anything going to happen with it?
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639. # [18:10] <jgraham> Ms2ger: I don't know
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643. # [18:11] <jgraham> I am still not happy about having random commented out code
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645. # [18:12] <jgraham> But I generally don't care too much about the default testharnessreport.js
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653. # [18:22] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, that's not a lot of tabs...
654. # [18:22] * Ms2ger is at 500
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665. # [18:35] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Pretty certain bratell still has you beat.
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667. # [18:36] <Ms2ger> That's plausible
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671. # [18:40] <Ms2ger> arunranga, around?
672. # [18:40] <arunranga> Hi ms2ger!
673. # [18:41] <Ms2ger> I'm looking at the spec for Blob.close()
674. # [18:41] <Ms2ger> It says "This must be [a] non-idempotent operation"
675. # [18:41] <arunranga> I think we should define a "Closed State" on Blobs.
676. # [18:41] <Ms2ger> Explain? :)
677. # [18:41] <arunranga> This was taken from Transferable's close
678. # [18:42] <Ms2ger> I see
679. # [18:42] <Ms2ger> Hixie, explain
680. # [18:43] <arunranga> A separate bug was filed on separating the transferable close from Blob's close. Explanation: it shouldn't be there, and should be fixed in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24339
681. # [18:44] <Ms2ger> Yeah, that would probably be better
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691. # [18:53] <Ms2ger> arunranga, do you know if anybody implements close yet?
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693. # [18:55] <Ms2ger> arunranga, feel free to review https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/545 :)
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696. # [18:56] <arunranga> Ms2ger, nobody (yet) implements close
697. # [18:56] <arunranga> Ms2ger, great :)
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703. # [19:02] <gsnedders> Man, I always forget how horrible implementing the tokenizer is.
704. # [19:02] <Ms2ger> That's probably the first time that sentence has been uttered
705. # [19:03] <jgraham> Yeah, seriously, how did you forget?
706. # [19:03] <jgraham> But mostly it's just dull
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710. # [19:08] <gsnedders> jgraham: It's the dullness that makes it horrible. I forgot because I tried to block out the memory.
711. # [19:08] <gsnedders> (I maintain my prior position of hating zcorpan for introducing all the script states)
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737. # [19:48] <Hixie> Ms2ger: here now (not sure what you wanted me to explain)
738. # [19:49] <Hixie> gsnedders: yeah, i recommend mechanical translation of some sort :-)
739. # [19:49] <Ms2ger> Oh no, you're actually right
740. # [19:49] <Ms2ger> I think
741. # [19:50] <Ms2ger> So it's only Arun who doesn't know what idempotent means
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746. # [19:52] <jamesr__> "middle endian" ?
747. # [19:52] <gsnedders> Hixie: Sadly doesn't work that easily in this case (I can't have shared state!).
748. # [19:52] <jgraham> What's a hobbit's favourite byte order?
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751. # [19:54] <jensnockert_> Little endian?
752. # [19:54] <jensnockert_> Oh, wait… I failed.
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758. # [20:03] <Hixie> jamesr__: it does exist... sadly
759. # [20:04] <Hixie> jamesr__: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endianness#Middle-endian
760. # [20:04] <Hixie> jamesr__: apparently the PDP-11 was middle-endian for 32 bit values
761. # [20:04] <Hixie> and "The ARM architecture can also produce this format when writing a 32-bit word to an address 2 bytes from a 32-bit word alignment", which sounds awful
762. # [20:05] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.114.3.99) (Quit: weinig)
763. # [20:05] <jensnockert_> The Wii has a similar endian sometimes.
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765. # [20:05] <jensnockert_> (http://wiibrew.org/wiki/Reversed_Little_Endian)
766. # [20:06] <Hixie> gsnedders: how do you mean?
767. # [20:06] <Hixie> gsnedders: i meant mechanically convert teh HTML spec text to your implementation
768. # [20:07] <gsnedders> Hixie: The spec text uses shared state (say, the temporary buffer). This complicates things with an implementation that cannot use shared state (because the language doesn't allow it).
769. # [20:07] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.114.3.99)
770. # [20:08] <Hixie> jensnockert_: man, that's messed up
771. # [20:08] <Hixie> gsnedders: ah, right
772. # [20:08] <jensnockert_> Nintendo is well-known for silly hardware stuff.
773. # [20:08] <gsnedders> Hixie: So, basically there's no simple 1:1 mapping to do a mechanical convertion. So yay ALL THE SCRIPT STATES!
774. # [20:09] * gsnedders glares at zcorpan
775. # [20:09] * gsnedders notes this was more effective when they originally got added to the spec, sharing an office with zcorpan
776. # [20:09] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.114.3.99) (Client Quit)
777. # [20:09] * jgraham notes http://xkcd.com/1319/ which is relevant to "just automate it"
778. # [20:10] <Hixie> gsnedders: well, at least you can convert the states and switch statements, even if the bodies aren't as easy
779. # [20:11] <Hixie> jgraham: that diagram is misleading. it fails to take into account how much more fun writing the automation is than the original task. :-)
780. # [20:13] * icaaq is now known as icaaq|afck
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784. # [20:14] <jgraham> Hixie: True, but I don't think the graph claims to represent happiness, only effort
785. # [20:14] <Hixie> right, that's why it's misleading, not wrong :-)
786. # [20:15] <Hixie> the "effort" spent on the task is implied to be uninteresting (otherwise why would you want to get rid of it), and the result is depicted as "worse" because there's more total effort spent and no free time left.
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789. # [20:15] <Hixie> but the efforts are qualitatively different
790. # [20:16] <jsbell> Until you end up maintaining the automated tool for other users and it ceases to be shiny
791. # [20:16] <jgraham> But both may be worse than free time that you could in theory use to do your highest-reward activity
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793. # [20:16] * jgraham notes that real life is not really like economics in this way
794. # [20:16] <Hixie> jsbell: i think the implication here is you never get to that state, since if you did, that would imply the tool worked enough to get rid of the original task :-)
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797. # [20:20] <SimonSapin> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#charset talks about "2143 endianness" for UTF-32…
798. # [20:21] <Hixie> UTF-32 on the web is dead, that should just be dropped.
799. # [20:21] <Hixie> HTML and the Encoding spec just say MUST NOT support UTF-32, iirc
800. # [20:22] <Hixie> actually HTML just discourages it
801. # [20:23] <Hixie> i guess we reserve MUST NOT for the ones with truly bad results like CESU-8, UTF-7, BOCU-1 and SCSU.
802. # [20:23] <gsnedders> The Encoding spec, as I read it, enumerates everything you MUST support, and everything else MUST NOT be supported, implicitly.
803. # [20:23] <SimonSapin> yes, that chapter is made obsolete by http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-syntax/ , but I’d still like to get rid of the encoding nonsense in CSS2
804. # [20:24] <Hixie> SimonSapin++
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808. # [20:30] <Ms2ger> SimonSapin, probably not worth it
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811. # [20:41] <Hixie> does 'z-index' has an official maximum value these days?
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817. # [20:52] <JonathanNeal> Hixie: depends if the browser supports higher than 32-bit values?
818. # [20:52] <Hixie> that's unfortunate
819. # [20:52] <Hixie> but likely true
820. # [20:53] <JonathanNeal> http://css-tricks.com/rational-z-index-values/ "I was seeing z-index: 1.62909e+07"
821. # [20:53] * icaaq is now known as icaaq|afck
822. # [20:53] <JonathanNeal> Also http://www.puidokas.com/max-z-index/
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824. # [20:56] <bholley> Hixie: yt?
825. # [20:57] <bholley> Hixie: just wanted to check if bug 20701 was on your list
826. # [20:57] <bholley> Hixie: seems like we should act while we have travis' attention ;-)
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828. # [20:58] <arunranga> Ms2ger, sorry, got disconnected before.
829. # [20:58] <arunranga> Ms2ger may actually leave "non-idempotent" in because it's right.
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831. # [20:58] <Ms2ger> arunranga, is it? Explain :)
832. # [20:58] <Hixie> bholley: yeah.
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835. # [20:59] <arunranga> You can't do the same operation again. It's a one time only. You can't reactivate a closed (0 bytes) resource.
836. # [20:59] <Hixie> bholley: to your first point in comment 124, consider prose like "As mentioned earlier, each browsing context has a WindowProxy object. This object is unusual in that all operations that would be performed on it must be performed on the Window object of the browsing context's active document instead."
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838. # [21:00] <Hixie> bholley: on the overall point of needing a summary, i vote you write it up this time :-)
839. # [21:00] <Hixie> bholley: if implementations are on board, btw, doesn't matter how hard it is for me to spec it, i'll deal
840. # [21:00] <Ms2ger> arunranga, okay, what do you think "idempotent" means?
841. # [21:01] <arunranga> You get the same result upon the same operation.
842. # [21:02] <bholley> Hixie: can you at least put it on some kind of wiki-ish thing where we can iterate on it?
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846. # [21:02] <arunranga> But https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24339 is still a bug.
847. # [21:03] <arunranga> And much of it has to be redone.
848. # [21:03] <Ms2ger> So blob.close(); blob.close()
849. # [21:03] <Ms2ger> What happens on the second call?
850. # [21:03] * bholley lunches
851. # [21:04] <Hixie> bholley: travis said he preferred the bug. i kinda do too (the history is more obvious that way)
852. # [21:04] <Hixie> bholley: we can iterate on the bug fine. it's not like final spec text is being iterated here, it's just a description of what needs doing.
853. # [21:05] <bholley> Hixie: I don't think he really said that, but the bug is fine by me
854. # [21:06] <Hixie> if you want to put it on a wiki it's fine too, feel free to copy and paste my text :-)
855. # [21:06] <bholley> Hixie: I'll take a crack at it after lunch
856. # [21:06] <bholley> Hixie: is there a w3 or whatwg wiki somewhere?
857. # [21:06] <arunranga> It should throw, just as reading on a closed blob throws. So it probably shouldn't say non-idempotent, which I think is your point?
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859. # [21:07] <arunranga> The intent is to not allow re-opening a closed blob.
860. # [21:08] <bholley> eh, I'll just use an etherpad
861. # [21:08] <Hixie> bholley: wiki.whatwg.org
862. # [21:08] <Hixie> bholley: if you don't have an account there let me know i'll create one
863. # [21:08] <bholley> Hixie: yeah, but looks like getting an account on that is a pain
864. # [21:09] <Hixie> bholley: etherpad works too
865. # [21:09] * bholley really lunches
866. # [21:09] <Hixie> it's not a pain, just give me your e-mail address
867. # [21:09] <bholley> Hixie: bobbyholley@gmail.com
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869. # [21:09] <Hixie> done
870. # [21:09] <Hixie> oh hey, the wiki got better
871. # [21:09] <Hixie> nice
872. # [21:10] <Hixie> account creation page is nicer, anyway
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874. # [21:11] * Hixie finds two e-mails in this inbox back to back: one from dreamhost saying his machine had to be rebooted due to memory usage issues, and one from the google webmaster tools saying his site was down.
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903. # [21:39] <tbsaunde> Hixie: is there a more recent discussion of the canvas draw focus ring stuff than http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2013-October/040974.html ?
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955. # [22:26] <Hixie> tbsaunde: iirc there's a bug about it?
956. # [22:26] <Hixie> tbsaunde: wait, october. yes, there's definitely more recent stuff on the whatwg list about ot
957. # [22:27] <Hixie> it
958. # [22:27] <Hixie> tbsaunde: e.g. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2014Jan/0033.html
959. # [22:27] * Hixie doesn't really understand what's going on with that API
960. # [22:28] <Hixie> it seems to have been coopted for a different purpose than it was intended for
961. # [22:29] * Ms2ger never quite figured out what it was intended for
962. # [22:31] <Hixie> drawing a focus ring, and optionally telling the AT that it should move its focus/magnifier to that part of the canvas
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964. # [22:34] <Hixie> Ms2ger: can you elaborate on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24327 ?
965. # [22:34] <Ms2ger> Hixie, follow the link and look for "img"
966. # [22:35] <Hixie> yes?
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969. # [22:36] <Hixie> why would <img> be listed there?
970. # [22:36] <Ms2ger> Because...
971. # [22:37] <Ms2ger> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/embedded-content-1.html#the-img-element links to http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-map-element.html#attr-dim-width
972. # [22:37] <Hixie> oh you're complaining that #attr-dim-width links to #dimRendering in "User agent requirements: User agents are expected to use these attributes as hints for the rendering.
973. # [22:37] <Hixie> " ?
974. # [22:37] <Ms2ger> Yep
975. # [22:38] <Hixie> hmm
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977. # [22:38] <Ms2ger> And that afaict, img width="" doesn't actually do anything per spec
978. # [22:39] <Hixie> i wonder why it's not listed there
979. # [22:39] <Hixie> huh
980. # [22:39] <Streusel> has dc.title & dc.description been added yet?
981. # [22:40] <Hixie> Ms2ger: it's there in r2757...
982. # [22:40] <Hixie> Ms2ger: and that lasts til at least r7000
983. # [22:40] <Ms2ger> Heh
984. # [22:41] <Hixie> was removed in r7614...
985. # [22:41] <Hixie> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17630
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988. # [22:42] <Hixie> i guess it was a mistake
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990. # [22:43] <Hixie> very odd
991. # [22:43] <Ms2ger> I suspected it would be
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993. # [22:44] <Hixie> k, fix should be in soon
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996. # [22:44] <Ms2ger> Thanks
997. # [22:45] <Ms2ger> Hixie, btw, the diff that removed it might have been easier to read if you hadn't also changed the line length in the same commit :)
998. # [22:46] <Hixie> yeah, i've stopped doing that
999. # [22:46] <Hixie> now i mark the paragraph as CLEANUP when i make changes
1000. # [22:46] <Hixie> and later go back and reflow the paragraphs
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1002. # [22:46] <Ms2ger> Good :)
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1004. # [22:49] <tbsaunde> Hixie: k, thanks, that API seems to have some issues imho
1005. # [22:49] <Hixie> tbsaunde: what are the issues?
1006. # [22:51] <tbsaunde> Hixie: my biggest one is that the element and its related accessible object already have bounds so makingthe focus ring its bounds seems really wrong
1007. # [22:52] <tbsaunde> in layout terms it seems like laying out a page, and then picking up the one elmeent and putting it someplace possible different from where it was without adjusting any of the other elements
1008. # [22:52] <tbsaunde> but it looks like you already got that in the mail you linked (reading now)
1009. # [22:52] <Hixie> tbsaunde: you mean bounds from addHitRegion()? the drawFocusRing() API doesn't set any bounds, it just does a one-time move of the magnification.
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1012. # [22:55] <tbsaunde> Hixie: from the spec it seems like the path on the canvas is used as the bounds of the accessible object for the element passed to it, or did I read the wrong spec?
1013. # [22:55] <Hixie> tbsaunde: what in the spec makes you interpret it that way? a lot of people have interpreted it that way, but that wasn't what i intended.
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1017. # [22:57] <tbsaunde> Hixie: its certainly what cabanier wants to do in gecko, looking up the spec again now
1018. # [22:58] <Hixie> yes, rik has all kinds of (imho crazy) ideas about what the API should do, that have little to do with what i specced.
1019. # [22:58] <Hixie> that's what i was referring to above when i said "it seems to have been coopted for a different purpose than it was intended for"
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1023. # [23:01] <tbsaunde> Hixie: yeah, still haven't gotten through the mail :(
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1025. # [23:02] <tbsaunde> I'd expect the language that would make you think that behavior is correct is Inform the user that the focus is at the location given by the intended path.
1026. # [23:02] <cabanier> tbsaunde: you should talk to roc
1027. # [23:02] <cabanier> tbsaunde: these are no my crazy ideas
1028. # [23:03] <cabanier> tbsaunde: this is how it already is implemented in chrome
1029. # [23:03] <cabanier> tbsaunde: and I had nothing to do with that
1030. # [23:03] <tbsaunde> I haven't rad chrome's code, but that sounds crazy
1031. # [23:04] <cabanier> what sounds crazy?
1032. # [23:04] <Hixie> tbsaunde: i don't see how "Inform the user that the focus is at the location given by the intended path" implies anything to do with setting anything persistent
1033. # [23:04] <Hixie> tbsaunde: in particular, it certainly doesn't seem to imply anything about the element
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1036. # [23:07] <tbsaunde> Hixie: so, I guess I read the spec wrong or something, but fwiw I think the logic people are using is "the way you notify accessibility of where focus is is by focusing an accessible object, which they seem to think you should get from the element passed in and then since your saying the focus is at a point you make that accessible object be at that point
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1038. # [23:07] <Hixie> tbsaunde: yeah... that's not a good way to read specs. :-) specs say what they mean, one shouldn't read between the lines.
1039. # [23:07] <Hixie> tbsaunde: at least, my specs do
1040. # [23:07] <Hixie> tbsaunde: there _is_ an API to actually set the bounds of specific elements, the addHitRegion() API
1041. # [23:08] <Hixie> tbsaunde: but that's an entirely different thing
1042. # [23:10] <tbsaunde> Hixie: yeah, this seems a lot more reasonable :-)
1043. # [23:12] <Hixie> tbsaunde: do you have any suggestion for how i can rewrite the "inform the user..." text to be less misleading?
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1057. # [23:31] <tbsaunde> Hixie: I want to spend some time thinking about the hit region stuff, and actually understanding how this works then I'll try
1058. # [23:31] <Hixie> tbsaunde: cool, thanks
1059. # [23:31] <tbsaunde> sorry I was confused
1060. # [23:31] <tbsaunde> np
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1064. # [23:41] <Hixie> tbsaunde: given the recent discussions about this, i'm equally confused, so no apology needed!
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1066. # [23:41] <Hixie> tbsaunde: not that one ever needs to apologise for being confused after reading a spec, it's basically always the spec writer's fault :-)
1067. # [23:44] <tbsaunde> heh
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The end :)